00:06:17.880I think we would probably argue that Muskism is a more useful analytic than Trumpism, but we're not trying to sane wash Musk or say that we're going to give the secret key that unlocks precisely his roadmap to success.
00:06:35.680But rather, when you zoom out, as we do in the book, and look at the life and work of Elon Musk as a whole, you find certain through lines, certain themes that recur. And interestingly, these themes always have to do with the political economic era in which Musk is living.
00:06:55.840So Musk can be seen as a Forrest Gump or Zellig-like figure that actually takes you through these distinct stages of global political economy from the dot-com boom of Silicon Valley in the 90s through the global war on terror, through the Obama experiment with green industrial policy, through the Web 2.0 period, so on and so forth.
00:07:21.600And that's why we think Musk is uniquely suited to this kind of treatment. It's not just that he's the richest man who's ever lived, but also that the arc of his career gives us a structure for understanding how we got here.
00:07:35.420The idea of Musk as chaotic, evil Forrest Gump had not occurred to me. Now that's going to just live in my head and I'm going to have to deal with that. So what is Muskism?
00:07:50.520like in your you know analysis like what yeah i i would agree that musk does not have like
00:07:59.060a single coherent philosophy and never really has uh i mean he has things that he wants
00:08:06.000but even those are not always fixed in the book you describe it as sovereignty as a service
00:08:13.940sort of, right? What do you mean by that?
00:08:17.800I mean, if you think about sort of pithy formulas
00:08:22.100that encapsulate other ideologies, so for example, when people talk about
00:08:25.900Fordism, they often say mass production plus mass consumption.
00:08:30.260Or people talk about neoliberalism, which will probably be relevant
00:08:34.140for our conversation at some point. Sometimes they'll say
00:08:37.360the dethronement of politics by economics, or the ongoing effort
00:08:42.100to make capitalism safe from democracy.
00:08:45.220We think about Muskism as the promise of sovereignty
00:08:49.100to both nations and individuals through technology
00:08:53.500that cashes out as a greater dependence
00:09:08.260The state is actually welcomed as an essential partner in the project.
00:09:14.680We use the term state symbiosis to think about this dynamic relationship between primarily tech providers, the hardware and software companies that have driven American stock market growth and economic innovation for the last quarter century.
00:09:32.760to domestic clients, foreign clients, mostly governments, but not always.
00:09:39.220Often people, too, who, in a crumbling world where the future seems ever more uncertain,
00:09:47.060the promise of Muskism is that if you plug into these private infrastructures,
00:09:52.740you will be safe inside of the Tesla dome, as it were.
00:09:57.480Even if you're on Mars, which as we know, it's very hard to get by on based on the rather vivid descriptions that you offered in your book.
00:10:06.260Yeah. No, that's not happening. Let's take a little time to unpack this before we get in deeper because I have all sorts of stuff I want to talk with you guys about.
00:10:15.580I think that this is not a way of thinking about Musk that most people are accustomed to, right?
00:10:25.380I think that insofar as people think about, like, you know, people who don't do this for a living think about Musk at all, these days I think they think of Musk's relationship to the state, for example, as, you know, something more like neoliberalism.
00:10:45.080That he's interested in dismantling the power of the state. And you push back against that in your book, and I think rightly so. But I think it's not well appreciated that Musk's power and money has largely come from working with state apparatus rather than trying to undermine it the way that someone like a Peter Thiel does.
00:11:10.280We want to make the argument very strenuously that Musk is not and has never been a libertarian, that he's always instrumentalized the state as a source of power and profit, that he's always identified it really as indispensable to his business operations, really from the very beginning.
00:11:28.080And he does so in a number of ways. I mean, like other figures from Silicon Valley, he's quite dependent on the state, of course, as a source for R&D funding of the kind that sustained the basic technologies that Silicon Valley has enriched itself with, including perhaps most importantly, the Internet.
00:11:48.820But more broadly, Musk has also identified the state as a source of subsidies, and perhaps most importantly, as a client, as a customer.
00:12:01.360He gets involved with provisioning services to the state quite early.
00:12:06.400SpaceX, as you may recall, which he founds in 2002, gets its start as a government contractor during the early years of the global war on terror.
00:12:15.640So in many respects, Musk is ahead of the curve. He's doing things before it becomes cool, so to speak. And there's been a lot of discussion about how in the last few years, Silicon Valley has turned to the state in the AI era as an essential partner for securing the massive energy inputs required for data centers that are training large language models.
00:12:45.300for access to land, for a permissive regulatory environment, and so on and so forth, and that
00:12:52.220this signals an inflection point, let's say, from the Web 2.0 platform era, where really what
00:13:00.340Silicon Valley wanted from the state was a fairly hands-off approach, economic liberalization
00:13:07.400domestically and globally, whereas now they need a more active state partner because AI is frankly
00:13:14.440so capital intensive that a different type of state capital relation is needed.
00:13:25.620He's developing that new state tech fusion as early as the 2000s in the form of first
00:13:32.760rockets and then cars because Tesla is important to also place within a geopolitical frame.
00:13:40.120Tesla is really able to survive because the first Obama administration identifies it as a crucial partner for an attempted energy transition in the late 2000s, which Obama is framing as necessary to reduce our reliance on foreign oil, which will then reduce our appetite for disastrous military adventures abroad like the Iraq war.
00:14:06.000So it's important here to see Musk not just as someone who is seeking fusion with the state of various kinds, what we describe as state symbiosis, but as someone who has always been a creature of geopolitics long before geopolitics became a headline term.
00:14:23.780maybe i can just add a couple things there um just to append that helpful answer from ben i think that
00:14:30.160when people who are critics of musk do address his relationship to the state and and they do
00:14:35.580they almost always describe it as crony capitalism or parasitism right or like yeah looting the public0.95
00:14:43.620purse or ripping off the taxpayer or you know sucking the teat of the government however you0.94
00:14:51.080want to phrase it. And we're actually resistant to that description, too, because crony capitalism,0.96
00:14:58.180which of course exists, and there's certainly a lot of it going around right now, is about finding,
00:15:03.360you know, inefficient choke points in political economy that you can gather rents from because of
00:15:10.340your relationship to the government. So by definition, it can't be innovation creating,
00:15:24.860And there's certainly been moments when Musk has, you know, taken wealth from the public
00:15:31.040purse and not produced something useful or, you know, failed in his efforts.
00:15:36.140But there have been also times when he succeeded.
00:15:39.240And I think it's really important for us to give him his due in a way when he actually did deliver on creating new markets that maybe hadn't existed before, like the consumer EV market, like satellite internet, like affordable launch.
00:15:59.620These are things that were not described well as crony capitalism, right?
00:16:04.000Actually, in the case of the Tesla example that Ben just mentioned in the Obama administration,
00:19:07.480Yes, he wants to go to Mars and drop out and live in a compound in Texas, but he also needs to be basically a diplomat and sit down with Modi and sit down with Xi Jinping and make the case to them why their governments should do business with his government to secure the contracts that he needs.
00:19:25.760This brings me to a question that kept coming to mind for me when I was reading your book. As you said just now, Quinn, so much of what he does is sort of, you know, inherently contradictory in some way.
00:19:41.840Uh, and yes, he sells us on this fantasy of Mars and it very much is a fantasy. It's not going to happen. Um, and he uses that as an excuse to both like insulate himself from having to deal with the consequences of, you know, living in a society while also, you know, engaging in this sort of state symbiosis that you're talking about.
00:20:09.320But I am curious, though, there was a word that you kept using in the book, and I want to understand a little bit more about why you said that some of what he did ends up looking kind of prescient, right?
00:20:28.060That, you know, he did things in, say, the 2000s and early 2010s that went against the sort of globalization trend of the time that now in this de-globalization era look prescient.
00:20:43.600And I kept thinking, I mean, probably because at the end of the day I'm a physicist and this is how I think about things, I kept thinking about this as a kind of selection effect, right?
00:20:54.720I tend to think about Silicon Valley as being essentially a giant casino where you have many, many people pulling the levers on these one-armed bandits all day, and most of them don't succeed, and then a few of them do, and then a very few of them succeed over and over again.
00:21:18.680And yes, there's something about the decisions that they're making that leads to those repeated successes, but a lot of it is just luck.
00:21:28.260And so I find it difficult to believe that Musk, you know, discerned or somehow enabled or brought about this sort of anti-globalization turn and that's why he was doing what he was doing.
00:21:46.140And I'm not saying that that's what you were saying. I'm just curious, how much of this do you think is like, yes, Musk did this because if he hadn't, we wouldn't be talking about him?
00:21:56.980Well, I think there's a few things in your question, Adam. I think first is what is the division of labor between luck and ability in making someone successful? Obviously, there are a lot of people in Silicon Valley who got very lucky, who were staying at the right place at the right time and got hit by a lightning bolt of money and then have to kind of post facto construct a narrative about why they deserved it.
00:22:23.560I think someone like Musk, it's a bit harder to make the case because he's been so successful at so many different junctures that we do, I believe, need to talk about why. And I think we can talk about why in ways that don't necessarily ascribe a superhuman genius to him.
00:22:43.420I think we can frame the why also in terms of structure. It doesn't need to be presented in such a way as to ennoble him or to elevate him. But I think we do need to try to identify, well, what are the things that he was particularly good at?
00:23:03.320And one of the things I think he has been very good at is intuiting, because it frankly may or may not be conscious, but intuiting certain opportunities that are inherent in the political economic environment in which he is operating.
00:23:18.980So when it comes to his production model, because that's another piece of your question, which from the 2000s, from SpaceX and Tesla, early days, is very much about vertical integration, is about reducing reliance on external suppliers, is about trying to make as much as possible in-house, where does that come from?
00:23:44.320Well, we have one speculation we present in the book. We can't get inside his mind. But one piece of the puzzle that we present, because we think it's particularly interesting, is the fact that apartheid South Africa, where Musk, of course, was born and grew up, also pursued an industrial model that emphasized economic self-sufficiency.
00:24:06.320It did so for political reasons primarily because the white apartheid leaders perceived themselves correctly to be encircled by threats both within and without their borders.
00:24:19.740And in order to garrison their regime, they wanted to try to build certain things such as cars within the country and bring advanced technology such as IBM mainframes into the nation to help with implementing apartheid.
00:24:39.220So one could place the emphasis on economic and technological self-sufficiency that was pursued by the apartheid regime alongside Musk's industrial model as developed at SpaceX and Tesla and say, these two things look like they have quite a bit to do with one another.
00:25:59.320And also say that when you look at Musk as a system, when you look at Muskism, does it exhibit properties of genius in the sense that it innovates new styles that do in fact have a quite meaningfully disruptive effect on the social environment in ways that perhaps rewire it for the future?
00:28:38.680But the way that Musk was setting up the Gigafactory, so he builds one, opens in Shanghai in 2019, was quite unusual compared to the way other auto factories were working, right?
00:28:54.440So rather than being dependent on a whole network of subcontractors and suppliers, rather than moving the object of the car around often across borders the way, say, like Fords are built in the United States, crossing back and forth to either Canada or Mexico several times before they are actually built, Tesla was doing as much as they could in-house.
00:29:16.480So that has since become their hallmark and indeed Musk's kind of calling card is this idea of vertical integration, which was deeply, deeply uncool in the 2000s when he started doing it.
00:29:27.900And when the Gigafactory opens and six months later COVID hits and Tesla's factories are shut down in Fremont, California and elsewhere, he's of course devastated and angry and lashes out at anyone he can and calls the containment policy fascist and the rest of it.
00:29:49.720But he rebounds more quickly than other car companies do because of the shortness of supply chains, because of the resilience that's built in through this model of vertical integration.
00:29:59.420And to a lot of people there, there was another moment where, like him or hate him, people said like, oh, well, Musk was actually ahead of the curve with this trend towards nearshoring and reshoring.
00:30:11.380And now, you know, it's, again, become the talk of the industry as the way things need to go.
00:30:20.680So it's an interesting, you know, relationship between the market signals, you could say, that he picks up and then his efforts to plug into them, which, as Ben has been insisting, isn't necessarily always conscious or that's maybe not the most helpful way to look at it.
00:30:40.480But it's always allowing him to accumulate more. And since that is really the primary law of the capitalists is to accumulate, then yes, he is finding new strategies and tactics, which are often then imitated successfully and unsuccessfully by those that come after him.
00:31:00.720I mean, it's interesting to think of all the, and Musk himself, of course, always boasts about things like this.
00:31:05.480The people who tried to imitate him have since disappeared.
00:31:07.980You know, the Nikola's, wasn't that the name of the truck company that was just being pushed downhill?
00:31:29.760So, yeah, I think that the best way to think about it, we think, is that different political moments produce certain market opportunities, and one of the traits that makes muskism helpful to think with is that you can often see the opening up of new sectors and new domains for investment,
00:31:55.180new investment stories for people backing these endeavors
00:36:14.620It's such a perfect tweet in terms of like what Musk is and how he thinks.
00:36:23.120Because of course, there's not going to be a million people on Mars, no matter what happens.
00:36:28.120And also taking our freedom away is not what was happening.
00:36:31.880They were just interfering with his manufacturing processes.
00:36:34.860But it is fascinating to me because, yes, it's true.
00:36:40.260SpaceX created the modern space economy, but it's also true that, as you just said, and as I was just saying about that tweet, these ideas that people have about what is coming for the economy in space is mostly wrong and not really a matter of opinion, a matter of physics.
00:37:04.880um and that is so much of why spacex is valued so highly especially right now in the wake of
00:37:12.680that ipo although of course as of at least yesterday i haven't looked this morning that
00:37:17.240the numbers are coming down which is kind of interesting um but um but yeah i mean you know
00:37:24.480that that valuation for spacex was not based on what it does now and what it could plausibly do
00:37:32.100in the near future, most of that valuation was based on stuff that isn't going to happen,
00:37:37.360like putting, you know, terawatts of data centers into orbit and millions of people on Mars.
00:37:46.080These things are just not going to occur. And listeners, if you don't know why, we're going
00:37:53.040to have an episode about that real soon, or you can go read my book. But I mean, this brings me
00:38:00.040back to a question that everybody always asks about musk and i tend to dismiss but i think you
00:38:06.500guys are going to have a more interesting answer i get asked a lot what happened to musk right like
00:38:12.740the bumper sticker that you quote in your book uh you know i i bought this before elon went crazy
00:38:18.260uh about the the teslas i i never liked musk i i um you know i like to joke and say that i'm a
00:38:29.240hipster about hating Elon Musk. I hated him before it was cool. I've never liked him. But there's
00:38:35.120definitely been a shift in how people think about him. You know, when you talked about Obama's
00:38:41.100industrial policy around Tesla, I think that's right. I think that is industrial policy. And I
00:38:45.820also kind of have to think that right now, Obama is probably kicking himself. But he was certainly
00:38:52.360not the only one who thought that that was a reasonable thing to do and that Musk was a
00:38:57.020reasonable person to partner with. And there's been a massive shift in how he conducts himself
00:39:04.180publicly, for sure. And in the book, you sort of trace some of that to social media and him
00:39:11.120realizing that he can sort of manipulate markets and, you know, cryptocurrencies with the power
00:39:20.040of attention. But I would be curious, because like generally when people ask me what happened
00:39:26.160to Musk, I say, oh, nothing really. This is the mask coming off. He was always like this.
00:39:30.940I get the sense that you two maybe don't completely agree with that.
00:39:35.560Yeah. I mean, I think if you do hear versions of this argument that Musk has always been
00:39:41.060on the far right, and we can't look into his soul to know precisely, but he was not making
00:39:48.840the kind of pronouncements that he's making now in the mid-2010s and the 2000s and the 1990s.
00:39:59.580So certainly his public persona has shifted quite sharply to the right.
00:40:06.200The question of what happened to Musk is something we devote the second half of our
00:40:11.960book to. So I'd encourage listeners who want a more detailed exposition of this
00:40:16.980to pick it up. But I would say more concisely that for us, the answer of Musk's rightward shift
00:40:27.760is inextricably bound up with what we call his cyborg turn, which is his growing conviction
00:40:36.020from the mid-2010s onward that humanity is becoming ever more entangled with its technology
00:40:44.780and that in so doing we are becoming cyborgs this is a word he uses directly and further that this
00:40:56.940process of cyborg synthesis is something that we should welcome yeah something that we should
00:41:03.100accelerate because and this brings us into territory that you're familiar with adam
00:41:07.760Because in Musk's view, riffing on figures like Nick Bostrom, the only way to avoid the existential risk of a superintelligent AI exterminating the world is to merge with computers such that we impart enough of ourselves to the AI that it won't destroy us.
00:41:29.980So that may seem very far afield from Musk talking about white genocide and trying to rile up anti-migrant sentiment, but in our view, they're actually very closely linked.
00:41:47.880Because what happens in the 2000s, you mentioned the factory closure in Fremont by public health order of Alameda County officials in 2000, sorry, in 2020.
00:42:01.560And this is only for about seven weeks.
00:42:03.260The factory's not closed terribly long.
00:42:04.940Musk actually reopens it in defiance of the order.
00:42:08.880But this is a quite frightening moment for Musk.
00:42:14.540His prerogatives as a capitalist are being directly challenged by the state.
00:42:20.460He reacts with alarm, as many other figures in the business class did, not just in Silicon
00:42:37.760We have also the election of Joe Biden, in fact, directly as a result of those protests, as a lot of social scientific research has shown. And Biden in turn pursues a relatively progressive domestic policy, which involves a pro-labor NLRB, Lena Kahn at the FTC getting serious about a regulatory and antitrust push, even some early moves around AI regulation and so forth.
00:43:07.240And for Musk and really to his colleagues in the Silicon Valley leadership class, these are all very threatening developments. Now here I think Musk is quite characteristic of his milieu. I think one of the things we try to toggle between in the book is where is Musk being like other people in his world and where is Musk being distinctive?
00:43:32.060When it comes to feeling freaked out by the social movement politics of 2020 and freaked out by Biden's domestic progressivism, Musk is frankly like every other capitalist in America.
00:43:47.220This is a very common response. And in particular in Silicon Valley, where they're mourning the centrism of an Obama-style figure and wondering where did all of these activists in the street come from?
00:44:03.120how did the American left revivify itself and start talking about justice and equality and
00:44:11.600class and race in ways that were really pretty much absent from the scene in the 2000s when
00:44:18.000Musk was emerging as a kind of Obama darling. Where Musk is distinctive however is the form
00:44:28.440that his rightward politicization takes, not so much the content, but the form. And the form can
00:44:35.280be summarized quite succinctly. The form is a single phrase, which is the woke mind virus.
00:44:41.580This is the phrase that is most closely associated with must turn to the right. And, you know,
00:44:47.780Adam, your reaction was perfect because when we say this phrase in public, presenting the book,
00:44:53.320people groan yeah they roll their eyes they laugh they you know understandable reactions yeah but
00:45:01.660for us a real breakthrough occurred when we moved past that and realized oh actually the best way to
00:45:08.440understand this phrase is not as a joke not as a metaphor not as symbol of some kind but actually
00:45:16.540is completely literal, that Musk believes that these various developments, factory closure,
00:45:25.560people yelling Black Lives Matter, tech workers talking about forming unions on Silicon Valley
00:45:34.200campuses, Lena Kahn at the FTC, what do all of these things have in common?
00:45:41.160Well, they're all emanations of a mental contagion called the woke mind virus.
00:45:48.920And the woke mind virus is a disease that afflicts the software of people's brains,
00:45:54.840and it is transmitted through the networks of our giant cybernetic collectives, as he describes them.
00:46:02.640So if you can recall that vision of cyborg synthesis that I spoke about just a moment ago,
00:46:07.800which in the mid-2010s he was celebrating. We're using our smartphones more. We're more
00:46:13.240online. These are good things. This is how we impart our humanity to the machines so that they
00:46:19.140don't kill us all. Now he sees this process of cyborgification as potentially a vector
00:46:25.380for bad ideas that can cause people to behave in ways that run counter to his interests.
00:46:33.160So I think that's the best way to understand Musk, not only as a figure who's moved to the right, but as a figure who embodies what we describe as cyborg conservatism.
00:46:46.180It's a cybernetically mediated vision of what politics is, and it comes with its own appropriately cybernetic political intervention, which is what do you do about the woke mind virus?
00:46:59.900If your view of politics is that it occurs through memes, through the transfer of information into people's minds through networks, then you seize control of those networks and you reprogram them such that different memes circulate.
00:47:16.340You propagate an anti-woke mind virus.
00:47:19.020And this is how we can understand the transformation of Twitter into X and, in fact, the creation of XAI and Grok.
00:47:28.340Okay, I have a lot of responses to that, and I also have other things I was hoping to talk
00:47:35.020to you guys about, but we are running out of time, and so I am going to skip to the end
00:47:41.160of the stuff that I wanted to talk to you about, which is at the end of your book, you
00:47:46.260sort of take that idea of the anti-woke mind virus to its sort of logical conclusion, and
00:47:55.180you map out possible futures for what would happen with musk but also what musk sort of wants for the
00:48:02.080future and you sketch out a sort of idealized vision of what musk would want things to be like
00:48:10.24010 15 years from now um and it's quite terrifying uh involving um you know basically musk having
00:48:20.140complete control over the information economy, far-right governments in power worldwide,0.63
00:48:25.760and repression of ethnic minorities, queer and genderqueer people, so on and so forth.
00:48:34.240I don't think that we are necessarily headed there. I don't think that you two think that
00:48:38.420we are necessarily headed there. But what I want to know is, what does your understanding
00:48:46.420of muskism give us in terms of ways to fight back against musk's power yeah i mean i think that our
00:48:53.100choice in ending the book that way was really a response to the dominant way that musk has been
00:49:00.360narrated in public for the last couple of decades until now which is really as as a brilliant
00:49:07.480engineer and businessman right so if you take the analogy to fortism it's kind of like just
00:49:13.700focusing on the assembly line and innovations in production and the kind of cars that he was able
00:49:20.380to make so the rockets the cars um the iron man sort of self-image yeah the question that you know
00:49:29.260to circle back to the way we started the conversation the question we wanted to ask was
00:49:33.740what version of ideology and social relations are assumed to back up and make possible that
00:49:40.940production model. So what are the things that are not the cars and not the factories? What kind of
00:49:46.100realignment with governments, realignment with consumers, et cetera? What is the belief system
00:49:51.400that's supposed to make this whole thing tick? How's that supposed to work? So we did our best
00:49:58.280kind of analytically to bolt all the different parts of the Musk empire together. What's
00:50:03.160interesting about the present moment is he's doing that himself, right? So the SpaceX that IPO'd
00:52:47.180I think that he's filled with vulnerabilities.
00:52:49.100There is the loss of investor confidence, the loss of 20% of, or sorry, was it 10% of SpaceX's value within the first few days of trading up and down shows that these things can change very quickly.
00:53:04.040And MSCI, one of the big kind of firms that provides ratings, gave SpaceX a one out of five stars on their corruptions and controversies or their controversies index because of all of the political question marks over relying so heavily on someone like Musk with all of his erratic behavior.
00:53:29.700and completely concentrated monopolistic control of the firm.
00:53:35.380So you could get questions coming from institutional investors.
00:53:39.440You could get loss of faith from retail investors.
00:54:04.580Brazil has shown its willingness to fight back against him.
00:54:07.840If that many countries in the world reject the use of Musk's products,
00:54:13.660then the profits that he promises can't actually be realized.
00:54:18.420And eventually he kind of runs out of rope with investors.
00:54:21.600So I think a combination of just exposure to market, ups and downs,
00:54:27.240And then grassroots mobilization, pushing lawmakers to get off X, divest public employee unions from these unaccountably governed firms like SpaceX and Tesla, even if they are in the indexes.
00:54:43.620I think that these things are actually starting to happen and the vulnerabilities are starting to accumulate, I think.
00:54:50.800And Musk's turn to ever more inflammatory rhetoric, fomenting race riots in Northern Ireland and so on, is almost a sign of his irritation, not to say desperation, but a sense that he's not actually living as ironclad in existence as he would like to think.
00:55:09.040As you mention in the book, and as he himself has said, if the stock price of SpaceX and Tesla went to zero, he would go bankrupt almost immediately.
00:55:22.220No, let's make it happen. Absolutely. I think that that's a good place to end it. Thank you guys for coming on. This was a lot of fun. I don't know, we'll have to have you back because I have more that I wanted to talk to you about, including Asimov's Foundation trilogy.
00:55:36.440And it's important to Musk, importance to Musk rather, and Quinn, your book, Hayek's Bastards.
00:55:43.060So we'll see you guys again soon, I hope.
00:55:49.140Thanks again to this week's guests, Ben Tarnoff and Quinn Slobodian.
00:55:53.320Next week, we have Kathy O'Neill, and we talk about the pernicious uses of mathematics.
00:55:59.380To submit questions for future guests and to suggest other guests, and to see more pictures of Babka, join the conversation on Patreon.
00:56:10.720You can also find us on YouTube, on Instagram at DATMPod, on the web, and on Blue Sky at DreamingAgainstTheMachine.com, or just find us wherever you get your podcasts.
00:56:22.380Dreaming Against the Machine is a proud member of Multitude Productions.
00:56:25.920Our executive producer is Nick Carissimi.
00:56:28.700our theme music is by Jared Emerson Johnson