For The Wild - November 11, 2020


CORRINA GOULD on Settler Responsibility and Reciprocity ⧸208

Topics
JOANNA MACY on the World As Lover And Self ⌠ENCORE⌡⧸207 SII-AM HAMILTON on Respect-Based Futures ⧸209

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 3 minutes

Words per minute

153.05

Word count

9,783

Sentence count

307

Harmful content

Misogyny

9

sentences flagged

Toxicity

1

sentences flagged

Hate speech

25

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
00:00:00.000 For the Wild podcast is brought to you in part by the Calliopeia Foundation and listeners like you.
00:00:05.740 Calliopeia supports projects interweaving spirituality, culture, and ecology. We are
00:00:11.460 grateful for their support and the support of grassroots contributions from listeners.
00:00:16.020 To learn more about the Calliopeia Foundation, visit calliopeia.org.
00:00:20.660 To make a donation to For the Wild, visit forthewild.world slash donate or support us through Patreon.
00:00:27.040 Hello and welcome to For the Wild podcast. I'm Ayanna Young. Today I'm speaking with Karina
00:00:35.040 Gould, who is the spokesperson for the confederated villages of Lishan and Ohlone. She was born and
00:00:42.020 raised in Oakland, California, the territory of the Huchin, and is an activist that has worked
00:00:47.560 on preserving and protecting the ancient burial sites of her ancestors in the Bay Area for decades.
00:00:52.860 Because there's many people that can't go back home, but it's then our responsibility to learn
00:00:58.420 what is your responsibility then on someone else's homeland.
00:01:03.700 Karina is the co-founder and a lead organizer for Indian People Organizing for Change,
00:01:09.600 a small native-run grassroots organization and co-founder of the Segorite Land Trust,
00:01:15.840 an urban indigenous women's community organization working to return land to
00:01:20.560 Indigenous Stewardship in San Francisco's East Bay. Well, Karina, thank you so much for being
00:01:27.760 with us. We are so honored to have you on the show today, so welcome. Thank you so much, Ayanna. I'm
00:01:34.080 so happy to be here with you today. Well, I read your bio, but before we begin, I'd like to ask
00:01:40.760 if you'd like to introduce yourself further.
00:01:42.760 it's wonderful to be with you today relatives i'm happy to be here in my ancestral territory
00:01:54.720 i'm also a mom and a grandma and so my children and my grandchildren also reside in our traditional
00:02:02.780 territory and i'm just happy to be able to welcome folks from all over the place that's going to be
00:02:09.060 listening in today, and it's great to have this conversation with you today.
00:02:13.620 Thank you, Karina. Well, there are so many threads of your work that I'm yearning to
00:02:19.420 delve deeply into, but to begin, I'd like to honor Ohlone territory as a place of tremendous abundance.
00:02:27.320 Prior to development and resource extraction, Ohlone territory was filled with oak savannas,
00:02:32.460 ancient bison, fertile salmon runs, and roaming grasslands. And I'd love if you could share with
00:02:38.540 us the historical ecology of this territory and how that memory shapes what Segorite envisions
00:02:44.560 for Ohlone land and indigenous stewardship. Well, thank you so much. You know, I grew up here
00:02:51.260 in an urban setting in my traditional territory, and I look at the land, I think, in a different
00:02:58.220 way. And I think that I really started looking at the land in a different way when we started doing
00:03:03.340 the walks to the shell mounds in the bay area and most folks don't even know what shell mounds are
00:03:10.700 or i think that we have done a great job in the last 20 years explaining that to people
00:03:15.380 that these historic monuments of our ancestors these burial sites and village sites that
00:03:21.080 were along the coast where freshwater met saltwater and to imagine the bay area in a
00:03:27.060 different kind of way you know thousands of people from all different walks of life
00:03:31.960 come to the Bay Area, different languages, different cultures, and which makes the Bay
00:03:36.660 Area a really vibrant place in terms of cultures right now. But underneath all of those cultures
00:03:42.300 and the buildings lie the ancestral remains of my ancestors. Because of development,
00:03:49.120 most of them have been destroyed. And when you look at the Bay Area, I love the way you talked
00:03:53.900 about the abundance. And I was in a conversation with a nephew a few years back, and he talked
00:04:00.420 about how the songs of our ancestors were always these songs of abundance different from different
00:04:07.120 from other tribes and that come from different places maybe people that had harsher winters that
00:04:14.560 were their song some of their songs may be about please help us through this harsh time in the bay
00:04:21.240 area if we imagine that this place has only been touched over the last 250 years so it's really a
00:04:29.380 small time in history that that we see anything in the Bay Area. These buildings have been here
00:04:35.580 very, very short time, other people being on these lands for a very short time. And so if we can
00:04:41.180 imagine the different waterways in the Bay Area, probably, you know, anywhere between 30 and 50
00:04:47.300 different streams and creeks that used to run through here, fresh water was abundant. So I like
00:04:53.680 to think if we can imagine the bay area in a different way today we see hundreds of thousands
00:05:00.000 of people here and we see thousands of people without homes and we see hunger and 250 years
00:05:07.220 ago it was not even a concept hunger or people without a home and that there was enough fresh
00:05:13.740 water here so every creek in the bay area you could drink out of and so i can imagine that my
00:05:20.260 ancestors lived in this paradise not that long ago. But I also imagine that today, as we're
00:05:27.340 looking at climate justice, at climate catastrophe happening, that it would not take that much for us
00:05:33.300 to reverse this. There was acorns here that were in abundance, but also seeds and the vast amount
00:05:41.740 of plains that were filled with grasses and wildflowers that we would use the seeds to eat
00:05:48.820 a lot of. And so there was just so much that was here in the Bay Area and the landscape
00:05:55.060 has changed in a short period of time. But I imagine that if we went back to a way of living
00:06:02.980 closer to the land, that the land can still hold us and sustain us in a way that we would not see
00:06:09.840 homelessness, we would not see hunger in the Bay Area. But I think that human beings have gotten
00:06:15.420 away from having a connection to the land. And that's really why we're in the place that we're
00:06:21.040 in today. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I love to imagine through you what the place of your
00:06:29.620 ancestors was and that it's still there. It's still underneath the buildings, like you were
00:06:35.000 saying. And yeah, it's a really beautiful vision to think that it could come back. And I believe
00:06:40.960 that as well. Well, now the Segorite Land Trust is the first urban indigenous-led land trust in
00:06:48.180 the country. And I'd really like to focus on indigenous land reclamation in urbanized areas
00:06:54.340 like the Bay Area, where for the past two centuries, the land has been developed beyond
00:06:59.220 ancestral recognition. And this development is expected to continue amidst ongoing speculative
00:07:05.500 investing and as people continue to migrate into the Bay Area. So can you talk about land
00:07:11.040 reclamation in context to living in a city and the power this reclamation holds for tribes like
00:07:17.060 your own who are simultaneously on ancestral and urbanized territory? How are cultural lifeways
00:07:23.680 still ever present amongst the cityscape? That's a great question. And I like that,
00:07:30.040 the word of reclamation and we use the word rematriation right um and i really love that uh
00:07:37.800 because we're not only the first urban indigenous land trust we're the first indigenous women-led
00:07:43.400 land trust and i think it's important that it's uh it's women that are leading the forefront of
00:07:49.560 bringing back our historical um our lands back to a way of being i i think it is really important
00:07:57.520 that we talk about what does rematriation mean, because it really is a part of where we're trying
00:08:03.820 to use, trying to go with the Segurité Land Trust. And the Segurité Land Trust was really created
00:08:09.700 because we're a non-federally recognized tribe. And we had been doing work in the Bay Area for
00:08:17.680 years about bringing our ancestral remains out of the universities and institutions and putting
00:08:23.940 them back into the land. But as non-federally recognized tribe, we have no land base. But it's
00:08:31.420 important for us to also talk about that this is an intertribal women-led land trust. And the reason 0.54
00:08:36.780 is because of the policies of the United States government of forced relocation into cities that 0.90
00:08:43.300 we decided that we're working with women that have been here for three and four generations now 0.83
00:08:49.220 that have been moved into urban settings and needed places where they are able to have ceremony,
00:08:56.300 able to be in touch with the land and grow traditional foods and to have medicines available,
00:09:02.320 grandchildren that have not ever been back home to their own territories. And what does it mean
00:09:07.560 for us as the indigenous people of this land to take care of the guests in our territory?
00:09:13.480 But rematriation is really about maintaining and passing on to every new generation the languages, ceremonies, customs, and laws of our people and maintaining the sacred ties to our ancestral lands and keeping with the original instructions given to us by the creator.
00:09:31.820 And so because of colonization and the way that it happened here in California is different than in any place else in the country because of the genocidal policies that happen with the Catholic Church and the chattel slavery that happened within those missions.
00:09:50.900 And then when the new Mexican government happened, our tribal people were also enslaved by them and then by the United States government.
00:10:00.280 so when we look at that whole thing and the disruption of family ties with each other and
00:10:07.680 the loss of land and the loss of our ceremonial ways it really is Segorite's job and work to
00:10:15.780 rematriate the way I talked about is to bring back those ceremonial songs the languages this
00:10:22.320 the ceremonial places. And we've been blessed to receive the first quarter acre of our territory
00:10:30.200 back to us a few years ago and working with people that are now in our lands. And the reason
00:10:37.500 is so interesting that this is all tied to other indigenous places. The reason that land came back
00:10:43.900 to us, besides doing the hard work of doing the education, was that people began to hear that
00:10:50.900 there is something that's more meaningful when people are doing work. People were moved
00:10:56.900 by the work of our relatives at Standing Rock. And people from all over the world went to Standing
00:11:03.940 Rock and helped to stand for the water. And when folks from the Bay Area did that, these young
00:11:10.520 people that run Planting Justice had two acres of land on our territory, and they were running an
00:11:17.820 organic nursery there. But what they did was they were so moved by the work that was happening at
00:11:24.460 Standing Rock, they actually went to the elders there and asked what they should do when they
00:11:29.260 came home. And the elders told them that they should work with the First Nation peoples on
00:11:34.360 whose land they're on. And they really took it to heart. And they set up a meeting with Janela
00:11:39.640 LaRose and myself. And Janela is the co-founder of both Indian People Organizing for Change and
00:11:45.640 the Seguritay Land Trust, and we've been doing work together for over two decades. They offered
00:11:50.620 us this quarter acre of land on the two acre piece of property they were using to give it back to us
00:11:56.420 to create a cultural easement so that we could have land back. And the way these ancestors are
00:12:03.420 amaze me because this piece of land sits along the LaShawn Creek where our tribe is named for.
00:12:10.820 And it's a half mile walk from my own home. And in the idea of rematriation, of bringing back our traditional ways of really thinking about what do we leave for the next seven generations or even for our grandchildren, this gift of creating an arbor on our territory that had not been here for over 200 years was created not just by the indigenous people,
00:12:39.900 But people from all walks of life were able to come to the land when we had brought the redwood trees there and helped us to take the bark off the redwoods, to sand them down, to ready them to be stood up, to create an arbor, a place where we have ceremony, a place where California Native people dance together, that we are able to welcome people onto our lands.
00:13:05.600 This place was created here on our territory so that it would be a center of bringing people to that fire again, to not just remember as Indigenous people the connection to our land, but for all people that are now living on our territory.
00:13:21.560 What does it mean to be a guest on indigenous people's land? What does it mean for us to have
00:13:28.000 a reciprocity with the land again? How do we be good guests and good hosts while we're taking
00:13:33.940 care of this land? And what does that mean together to dream of being on this territory?
00:13:40.340 It seems like even more recently over the spring and summer, we've seen a tremendous amount of
00:13:47.800 movement that is causing settlers to begin examining their relationship to place. And I'm
00:13:53.700 thinking specifically about the mass removal of statues depicting incredibly genocidal and
00:13:59.280 oppressive figures. But I've also seen how this momentum has been really challenging for others
00:14:05.700 because of the dominant telling of history. And it's led me to think about our attachment to
00:14:10.860 histories that diminish settler shame and how as long as we remain attached, collective ignorance
00:14:17.400 will grow. So I'd like to ask you about how reconnecting with the land through Indigenous
00:14:23.220 led stewardship requires all of us to talk about the distortion of land. How is it necessary that 0.96
00:14:30.080 in order to meaningfully participate in land restoration, we need to congruently relearn
00:14:35.860 history? That's a great question. You know, a couple weeks ago, the statue of Junipero Serra
00:14:43.460 was taken down in Golden Gate Park and in 2015 we led a movement around No Sainthood for Sarah 0.58
00:14:53.320 and the Catholic Church decided to make this horrific genocidal maniac a saint and you know 0.82
00:15:03.420 we liken him to Hitler you know because of the genocide that happened because he brought the 0.84
00:15:11.940 Catholic Church and his ideologies from Europe to our territories. And that was the beginning 0.97
00:15:17.860 of the end of our ceremonies and our sacred places and our languages and songs. And so for
00:15:26.300 many California Native people, it was a very big time of mourning when this happened. And the crazy
00:15:33.280 thing that we really learned while we were doing this, and this took place all over the country
00:15:39.460 around Junipero Serra becoming a saint within the Catholic Church, it really began the conversations
00:15:45.300 of what does it mean to have this sainthood, but also what does it mean to really look back
00:15:53.000 in history and find out how did this all begin? And I think that within the, in the United States
00:16:00.000 at least, we do a very poor job at telling the history of, from the indigenous people's point
00:16:07.440 of view. And it does a really good job of what I call paper genocide of our people. Our people 1.00
00:16:14.640 are talked about in fourth grade about how we used to live and never talk about the current
00:16:20.440 situation. So it's always about an Indian in the past, almost this romantic idea of indigeneity a
00:16:28.740 long time ago and of a primitive people, but never talked about in a present form. And so it's what
00:16:35.820 I call, again, paper genocide, we're thought about as we're extinct. Even within the city of Oakland
00:16:42.420 now where I live, or Huchin, which covers six Bay Area cities, many people don't know that Ohlone
00:16:49.280 people exist. It's really been the last 25 years of us really pushing the envelope, standing up 0.98
00:16:56.620 for sacred sites to talk about the connection of land and people and human beings. But it also had
00:17:03.360 started this conversation about the doctrine of discovery and the doctrine of discovery was what
00:17:09.340 allowed European countries to not only settle on indigenous lands and to to try to take those over
00:17:16.480 but it also created this way for people to create slavery and so there's the connection between
00:17:23.240 African people coming to indigenous lands and indigenous people also being slaughtered and
00:17:29.260 being enslaved in our territories the doctrine of discovery basically says that we as people brown
00:17:35.260 and dark people were only only had half souls and because we only had half souls it was that it was
00:17:42.320 okay to take the land either by conversion or by sword and so that doctrine of discovery allowed 0.81
00:17:51.660 for the colonization of the world, really, and enslavement of African people. And so those 0.99
00:17:58.720 conversations begin to happen in earnest. During 2015, at least in my lifetime, I remember that
00:18:04.480 being a pivotal point of talking about that. Even us going to Catholic churches and talking
00:18:10.580 to nuns that were setting up these talks, these dialogues about Junipero Serra, having conversations
00:18:17.860 in community settings there were many people that were upset to hear the truth of history
00:18:24.060 but we did decide at that point those that were organizing around this no sainthood for sarah that
00:18:30.320 we would always speak the truth to history and even though people get upset i think that that's
00:18:36.060 the problem is that we get these ideas that grew up in the bay area or in california at least the
00:18:42.640 history here and most fourth graders are grew up making sugar cube missions and talking about
00:18:50.400 what wonderful things that the spanish church brought to the native people here and not really
00:18:58.500 examining the destruction that happened not only to the people but to the lands by the animals that
00:19:05.160 they brought here by moving the waterways by covering them up by you know all of the different
00:19:12.340 things that happened on the lands are not talked about in our history books. Today, as we're
00:19:18.540 looking at Black Lives Matter movement right now, we're at this pivotal point in history where we
00:19:23.820 need to begin to really speak the truth about what happened on these lands and to further examine 0.91
00:19:30.500 how it is that this country that was built on the stolen lands of people and the stolen bodies of
00:19:37.300 others needs to come correct in a way, needs to really talk about the histories. What I find when
00:19:45.140 I talk about these histories with young people is that when I'm talking about fourth and fifth
00:19:49.520 graders, they understand that slavery is not a good thing and they understand justice in that
00:19:56.100 kind of way. They're at that point in their development, their mental development about
00:20:00.980 right and wrong justices. It's the adults that get uncomfortable when we talk about it.
00:20:07.300 The adults that want to hold on to this idea of romanticism, of the Spanish bringing all of these great things to the indigenous people to my, you know, to my ancestors and not talk about the horrific things that that happened as a result of them coming to the lands and taking them.
00:20:25.360 You know, what we talk about when we're talking about stolen lands from people, we're not talking about a past. We're talking about currently stolen lands, that their lands are continuously being stolen from indigenous people.
00:20:37.700 While we were in sitting place, the Wampanoag people had their territory taken from them by, you know, by this country. We talk about not that long ago, Ruth Ginsburg wrote a document disallowing Native people from receiving a lake and some land back using the doctrine of discovery.
00:21:01.200 We talk about us continuously when we were in 2011 in Vallejo, California, what is our village site of Segorite, when we went and took that space over for 109 days, that land was a ceremonial place.
00:21:18.420 It was a village site. It was a burial site and still the land being taken and not disallowing us from having ceremonies there or disallowing us from being on our own territories without having permits from park districts and disallowing us from having our ability to gather foods in our territorial places.
00:21:43.820 So the taking of land is not something that's in the past. It continues to happen today.
00:21:49.800 The reason that it's important also for us to start having these conversations about the truth in history, what happened is that we cannot write what has been wrong. 0.91
00:21:58.720 We cannot, you know, if we do not examine how things happened here, we can just go back a few, not that long ago and look at what Germany has done.
00:22:09.260 And Germany has taken responsibility to the genocide of Jewish people by telling the truth to that history, the horrific truth of what happened in those gas chambers, the horrific truth of what happened during that era of Nazism that was happening then.
00:22:27.160 Not that the Nazism has gone away, but to also to acknowledge that this horrific genocide happened. 0.52
00:22:34.240 We don't talk about the genocide of Indian people in this country.
00:22:38.040 We don't talk about the genocide of African people and the taking of their language and their traditional belief systems and bringing them to a land that they didn't know and making them, having them be enslaved.
00:22:55.620 And so we don't talk about those things because people, I think, are afraid to touch the pain.
00:23:00.300 And I think that what today is asking us to do is to touch that pain, to open it wide.
00:23:05.320 And then from there we have to heal. We have to bring it back to the rematriation of land. It's important that indigenous people have land, have access to their land, to be given back the land that was stolen from them, to acknowledge that this land, this new country, it's a very young country, has done horrific things and they owe both indigenous people and African American people a huge debt.
00:23:33.180 And so unless we begin to talk about those, have those conversations about it, unless we're very honest about it, we're not going to move forward.
00:24:03.180 Once was an eagle, now is a bee
00:24:12.140 Canta l'arbor, canta la flor
00:24:19.200 I sing the waves from the ocean's core
00:24:22.780 Love me the way you say you do
00:24:33.160 I love you the way I say I do
00:24:42.900 I think many of our listeners will really resonate
00:24:52.620 with your approach to settler responsibility and reciprocity
00:24:56.740 in that even for those of us who already care deeply about the land,
00:25:01.160 we still also have a responsibility to the ancestors
00:25:04.760 who tended the land and present-day descendants.
00:25:08.760 So with this preface, I'd like to talk about
00:25:11.200 the growing number of organizations and offerings that encourage settlers and occupants to pay a
00:25:17.420 land tax, like real rent, Duwamish, and of course, Segorite's Shumi land tax. What does the Shumi
00:25:25.180 land tax do? And why is it important to frame it as a tax or rent rather than a donation?
00:25:32.100 That's a great question. I want to say that we first started out to Shumi tax and
00:25:37.820 in about 2016, I believe. And we got this idea from the YDOT people who are in Northern California
00:25:47.100 and they had received an island back and needed and didn't have any way to restore it back to
00:25:54.240 its healthy self and they needed to clean it up. And so they started this tax idea. We asked
00:26:01.300 permission if we could use it here in the Bay Area. And I actually worked with allies and
00:26:05.900 accomplices to put this together it was something that was brought to us and said maybe we should
00:26:11.700 try this out here in the bay area and so we did there was an ally who now works for me um or
00:26:19.760 actually he should be he's probably an accomplice uh ariel lucky and his dad created the platform
00:26:25.720 on our website that we um actually just put out um one one year a few years ago and i think it was
00:26:34.540 2016 um just by word of mouth that we were going to open this up as shuumi tax and shuumi in the
00:26:43.400 chochenyo language from our territory means a gift uh and we couldn't figure out if we we didn't
00:26:50.280 really like the word tax um and we were trying to figure out a different word to use and we still
00:26:55.920 have not come up with one because taxing you know has this negative connotation and people hate the
00:27:03.360 word tax and what that means um but it's kind of stuck for for whatever reason that people
00:27:11.220 understand that there's an obligation when we hear the word tax there's an obligation
00:27:15.840 and so we ask people to if they live or work or benefit from living or on our territory that
00:27:25.800 that they do this honorary tax and the tax really what it does helps to pay for the work that we're
00:27:32.860 doing to rematriate land in our territory, to build the central ceremonial places, to
00:27:40.340 help us to create these, people are now calling resiliency hubs, are these places what we
00:27:47.380 call Hemetka, a place where we all gather, a place where when things are not so good,
00:27:54.520 either man-made or natural disasters, that we have places where we could help the communities
00:28:01.680 that are around us to making sure that they have necessary first aid and water and things
00:28:09.100 available to them.
00:28:10.680 And so another way of taking care of our communities is by creating these places.
00:28:17.440 Yeah, there's so much there.
00:28:19.280 And I really resonate with this idea of the Shaumi land tax and the obligation of those
00:28:27.360 who are living and profiting off living off these lands to be responsible to take care of the land
00:28:35.940 and the First Nations folks who are also taking care of it still today. So I really appreciate
00:28:42.360 all the labor that you and others have put into this. And I think that's what's wonderful about
00:28:48.760 the taxi, the Duwamish rant, and there's a real Manhattan that's joined in New York. We just had 1.00
00:28:55.180 a conversation with another tribe uh in washington dc yesterday and we're hoping that people pick
00:29:03.640 this up in all the different uh tribal areas that people have a responsibility but sometimes our
00:29:10.740 our uh folks that live in our territories don't know how to engage you know how do how do i you
00:29:18.880 know, I know that I should be doing something, but I don't know what I can do. This actually 1.00
00:29:26.060 gives folks a real concrete way of actually giving back and helping the traditional people
00:29:31.920 of that territory do the work that they need to do in order to bring back the language songs and
00:29:37.940 ceremonies, but to take care of our relatives when they come from out of the area. And not just
00:29:43.980 the Ohlone people, and I always say this because we have a responsibility for everybody that now
00:29:48.780 lives in our territory. How do we then do that? In a traditional way, everyone that lived in the
00:29:55.020 territory would give something so that we're all taken care of. And so this is a way of traditionally
00:30:01.400 doing this as well. It's a traditional thought process. It's like we are all trying to live in
00:30:07.240 reciprocal manner and so our job is to take care of folks here how do we do that as good hosts if
00:30:14.280 we don't have good guests also participating in the reciprocal relationship and so um i think that
00:30:21.300 that's what shumi does it helps us to have a reciprocal relationship on this territory
00:30:26.440 not to um close an eye a blind eye to indigenous people still being here but how do we live as
00:30:35.120 good guests and come in a good way. Absolutely. Well, I'd like to now ask about using private
00:30:44.100 land trust as a tool for indigenous sovereignty, and how they're an example of conservation
00:30:49.740 existing outside of the industrial or traditional environmentalist framework. As paradoxical as
00:30:56.520 that might sound. So how do indigenous land trust subvert or repurpose the very colonial history of 0.72
00:31:04.960 land conservation? And additionally, why are they especially important for non-federally
00:31:10.880 recognized tribes? Yeah. Okay. So really the only way for us to get land in, um, back in our
00:31:19.760 territory was to create a land trust. And really we didn't know what a land trust was when we first
00:31:24.780 started out. It wasn't in our purview for a lot of different reasons. Indigenous people don't
00:31:31.120 Generally, think of land trust, I think, you know, land for federally recognized tribe is put into trust by the United States government.
00:31:39.680 So that's what reservations are. The land is put in trust so that they that the reservations can exist for non federally recognized tribes.
00:31:49.340 And really, I think that people should know that missionized Indians in California from the bottom, from San Diego all the way up to Sonoma, are not federally recognized along the coast of California.
00:32:02.520 And so that means multiple tribes are landless Indians.
00:32:06.560 You're landless even in your own territory. 0.93
00:32:09.600 And so the land trust, it was a beautiful thing.
00:32:14.220 It was a gift.
00:32:15.260 My ancestors are so amazing that they give us these gifts of meeting people and putting us in contact with those that have that are supposed to bring us these ideas or or knowledges that we didn't have before.
00:32:29.540 And Beth Rose Middleton, who is a professor at UC Davis, became a good friend and ally of ours.
00:32:35.480 And she wrote her dissertation at UC Berkeley called Trust in the Land.
00:32:39.040 And it was about Native Land Trust. And Native Land Trust had just begun not that long before we started doing, before we did the takeover in 2011. And it was really about bringing land back in different kinds of ways.
00:32:53.840 We had federally recognized tribes that were buying back land. They had casinos that were buying back their sacred sites so that they could have access to them again and that they could take care of that land in different kinds of ways.
00:33:09.580 We had non-federally recognized tribes that were only had an acre of their land that they
00:33:16.500 had a long-term lease on so that they could do ceremony and they could do education on
00:33:21.020 it.
00:33:21.660 And so really it was because I was brought to a meeting after that, after the occupation
00:33:28.420 in 2011, Beth Rose invited me to a meeting of indigenous land trust that I found out
00:33:34.000 about them.
00:33:34.660 And they were mostly, mostly guys, indigenous men that were at the meeting. And I was like, you know, one of the only women that were there. And that's when I met my friend, our friend, June Lankard.
00:33:52.740 um and I was at that meeting back in 2011 and uh and I asked him a question you know he and I
00:34:01.840 um hit it off he told me about his story of uh saving uh the land uh after the Exxon Valdez spill
00:34:09.880 and uh as we were having lunch I just asked him I was like I noticed that there's a lot of men here
00:34:16.440 is this a boys club that's what I asked him and he laughed and he you know and he said yeah
00:34:22.560 It really is, you know, not only here in indigenous land trusts, but also other land trusts.
00:34:30.460 You know, there's thousands of land trusts across the country.
00:34:34.180 People are trying to preserve land for animals or landscapes or different kinds of things.
00:34:40.640 And what I really found out about other land trusts, non-indigenous land trusts, is that for a lot of them, they're about putting up these big old fences with no trespassing signs.
00:34:52.560 to save a particular area from being touched or destroyed.
00:34:57.300 But Indigenous land trusts are really about reengaging people back into the land,
00:35:02.860 barely touching the land and really working with the land
00:35:06.580 and bringing medicines and ceremony and stuff back
00:35:09.980 and really trying to not only Indigenous people,
00:35:13.060 but really bringing everybody along with us.
00:35:15.420 And what does that look like for us to reengage with the land in a different kind of a way?
00:35:20.920 And so I really appreciate this being a tool, a mechanism for us to be able to do that, especially for us that are non-federally recognized, that want to have access to land for ceremony, for reburial, for a way for us to grow our traditional foods again, for us to have places for us to just be.
00:35:48.400 and I think that that's different than a park you know it's really talking about what does it look
00:35:54.780 like to be on sovereign indigenous land in the middle of a city and it what it really means is
00:36:01.240 that indigenous people are leading what's happening on that land are leading the ceremonial places are
00:36:07.280 really re-engaging and our tribal territory our tribal people back into a way of of living
00:36:14.740 in a more reciprocal manner, really bringing people onto the land to learn about language.
00:36:20.720 And I think that people are hungry for it, not just our people, other people that are
00:36:26.620 living in our territories now, that they understand this relationship that they're
00:36:31.640 wanting to engage in a different kind of way. I think when we live in cities and urban places,
00:36:37.180 we forget that we are still a part of the the circle of creation that we are always trying
00:36:45.000 to run away to the mountains or run away to the ocean to run away to the to nature we forget that
00:36:52.860 we are part of nature that we are supposed to be in that circle as well human beings having land
00:37:00.620 in these places indigenous people taking land through these uh these tools of uh land trust
00:37:08.660 right now allows us to engage again allows other people to engage in this idea that we are still a
00:37:15.680 part of this circle of creation how do we get ourselves back into balance again so that we
00:37:22.860 don't feel as we are a part of a part but part of and so I think that that's what's important
00:37:31.980 about having urban indigenous land trust is that we don't have to feel like we have to go
00:37:37.740 outside somewhere so we can remember that we are still a part of something.
00:37:43.740 Well talking about land trust I'm thinking about how there is also a conversation to be had on
00:37:49.420 trust or perhaps mistrust and the harsh reality that so many settler environmentalists don't
00:37:56.940 trust indigenous people to hold full title to land they would much rather see land preserved
00:38:02.540 in the hands of large-scale non-profits so i'm curious to hear how you have navigated this
00:38:08.800 environment as well as the logistics of indigenous land trust how do you see checks and balances
00:38:14.780 operating? And how can we foster integrity in conservation and land restoration work
00:38:20.620 amidst a world that continues to peddle scarcity, greed, and extraction?
00:38:26.440 That's a great question about the mistrust of Indigenous people of their own lands. It's this
00:38:33.280 paternalistic ideology that settler colonialism has brought that we don't know how to take care
00:38:40.160 of our own territories yeah not looking back 15 000 plus years of indigenous people taking care of
00:38:47.000 their territories um and having an abundance uh before anybody else got here you know i think it's 0.76
00:38:55.840 a it's a huge ego uh trip you know as well um to think that they know what's best for us still
00:39:03.480 it really does come down to this paternalistic idea of us as being inferior and so I think using
00:39:12.780 the land trust as a tool to get it into our own hands is is great and then I think it's this
00:39:18.960 settler colonial ideology that buying and selling land is the right thing to do you know when there
00:39:26.120 was definitely no idea on our territory and in or indigenous territory across Turtle Island
00:39:33.020 about the buying and selling and piecemealing and extraction of our native territories. 0.64
00:39:40.540 And that's a very new idea that came to our lands.
00:39:45.420 And really in California, only a very new idea that only came a couple of hundred years ago.
00:39:50.480 And so I think it's possible for us, you know,
00:39:53.420 when we talked earlier in the conversation about truth-telling,
00:39:57.120 I think it's important for us to sit down with these,
00:39:59.780 are friends that want to be friends of the earth, to also understand that they need to be friends
00:40:05.920 of the indigenous people. Many times throughout recent history, we've seen Sierra Club and other
00:40:14.160 large organizations that have not been so willing to have indigenous people talking about the
00:40:22.340 importance of land and really stepping forward to be those people that speak on behalf of our
00:40:28.700 traditional territories. And I think it's important that we begin to listen. You know,
00:40:32.940 we talked about this movement right now with the solar colonial statues going down. And we talked
00:40:39.080 about the importance of telling truth to history right now. I think it's important right now also
00:40:45.620 as we're going, we're moving as a human race towards this catastrophe of climate blowing up
00:40:53.320 right now that we need to be able to listen to the indigenous people of this land because
00:40:57.640 there are original hidden instructions on how we are supposed to be and in order for us to
00:41:04.680 bring that into balance we need to listen to indigenous leadership around what those stories
00:41:12.520 were for thousands of years we as indigenous people knew how to live on this land and so how
00:41:19.440 is that not important to listen to right now as we're moving forward in this place where
00:41:24.160 these catastrophes are happening all over the world and one of the catastrophes is COVID you
00:41:30.780 know we we need to listen to this what COVID is telling us right now the horrific disease that's
00:41:37.620 happening to us and but while we've been sitting in place you know I kind of feel like mother earth
00:41:43.340 kind of put us in a sit time as human beings to kind of learn something to look at what happened
00:41:49.300 while we were sitting for a very short amount of time was that the air clean cleared up that the
00:41:54.660 water started to become restored that the animals that originally lived in territory in places where
00:42:00.660 cities now are came back and so it's important for us to look at what's happening in the environment
00:42:08.700 and how we have had a huge impact on that as human beings
00:42:14.400 We'll be right back.
00:42:44.400 I'll see you next time.
00:43:14.400 So I'm hoping we could now talk about the gendering of land conservation 1.00
00:43:39.940 and the necessity of having indigenous women and gender non-conforming folks lead land
00:43:45.760 restoration efforts. Historically, I think many of us know what has happened when patriarchal
00:43:51.860 heteronormative men hold land, but perhaps you can share with us how the land is calling back
00:43:58.680 a different kind of energy, one that possesses knowledges of care that extend prior to dominant
00:44:04.480 patriarchal modalities. Yeah, I think that that's why Janelle and I really decided to do a women-led
00:44:11.100 land trust because we looked at what's happened since men have been in charge of land and the
00:44:18.720 extraction of land, the buying and selling, because what has happened to our lands has also happened
00:44:26.040 to women's bodies. And so there's a real correlation that when settler colonialism
00:44:31.060 happened when they, when people came to indigenous lands, they first destroyed the sacred and then
00:44:36.900 they stole and raped the women and took the land as they're taking. And so it's a deep wound 1.00
00:44:45.540 that has also affected men. And so we need to bring this back into balance. And we are told
00:44:51.940 in ceremony through our medicine people, not just California medicine people, but medicine people
00:44:57.680 from all over the world, now is the time for women to stand in their rightful place. And I think we
00:45:03.420 need to figure out what that means. And so when we start talking about the rematriation of land,
00:45:09.420 it's really about what is our responsibility and our relationship to land as women. As Indigenous
00:45:16.040 women, we are given particular songs for medicine, for the waters. And so those songs and those
00:45:25.400 medicines have not been woken up in a long time and in order for us to make a change and create
00:45:32.980 in this creation this further creation that we need to stand in those places of taking care of
00:45:39.640 it's our responsibility as women right we give we give life and so in our in our thoughts it's like
00:45:47.340 okay we bring life into this world but it's also women and two-spirit folks that responsibility
00:45:54.860 for helping people to leave this world you know what i mean it's the ceremonies that go with your
00:46:01.460 next journey to the next world it's our responsibilities of knowing how to care for
00:46:08.540 for our elders and to take care of medicines to sing to the waters because we we also hold water
00:46:19.160 all of human beings all of creation holds water in their body women hold water in their body in
00:46:25.540 a different kind of way when they're able to give birth or when they're pregnant they hold their
00:46:30.020 children in their own water and so to have these water songs is important to remember that this
00:46:38.240 so our creation it's really about remembering what what our original teachings was and to remind
00:46:44.220 our our male counterparts what is their responsibility as well to come into a balance
00:46:52.400 so it's not about leaving men behind it's about remembering what our responsibilities are what
00:46:59.620 are all of our original teachings are whether you're male or female or neither that we all had
00:47:06.820 our own original teachings of how we were supposed to be in this world we have to go backwards in
00:47:13.340 or to go forward. And that's what I really want to do when we talk about the land, when we talk
00:47:19.280 about our ceremonies, when we talk about living in reciprocity. It's really about going back so
00:47:25.320 that we can go forward in a good way to remember what we were originally taught. And everyone has
00:47:33.200 original teachings. Sometimes we forgot because of moving around the world, because we're far from
00:47:39.900 our own homelands because we can't go back home because there's many people that can't go back
00:47:44.920 home. But it's then our responsibility to learn what is your responsibility then on someone else's
00:47:50.360 homeland and how do we look to women's leadership? Currently, I'm finding that there are more women 0.79
00:47:56.480 that are doing land trust, more Indigenous women that are doing land trust for those same reasons
00:48:01.720 as we're bringing up our children and our grandchildren, as we're nurturing the songs 0.97
00:48:06.040 and the ceremonies to come back,
00:48:07.720 as we're bringing back the medicines
00:48:10.200 of our traditional territories
00:48:12.440 and learning how to use them again. 0.99
00:48:15.320 It's the women that are doing that 0.99
00:48:17.240 and are bringing our brothers and our uncles 0.99
00:48:19.480 and our fathers and grandpas along with us
00:48:21.660 to remember those songs that go with them,
00:48:24.500 to remember how we're supposed to be on this land together.
00:48:28.200 And so it's important for all of us to know,
00:48:30.680 it's just right now that the women 1.00
00:48:33.240 have a different way of being on the land 0.63
00:48:35.200 And that we have to look towards that way of being on the land in a softer way, in a way that we have a reciprocity to the lands, to remember our, not just our original teachings, but our responsibilities.
00:48:49.920 You know, that's why we work with Chief Helene Siska of the Winnemont Wintu about bringing the salmon back home, her salmon that are in New Zealand, out to Aurora.
00:49:00.640 how do we bring them back because we have a responsibility as salmon people as well
00:49:05.720 to sing to those salmon as they come home to sing to them as they go out to the ocean
00:49:10.280 they could the waters uh flow from mount shasta to the sacramento and down to our delta
00:49:16.460 out to the bay you know it's the same waters that are that we share and so singing those
00:49:23.640 salmon home and singing them back out to the ocean it's a responsibility because they feed
00:49:29.840 us, they feed the lands, they take care of us. And so remember what those responsibilities are.
00:49:37.860 And it's difficult when you're in an office all day long to remember that, oh, I have a
00:49:43.400 responsibility to go sing to those salmon. I have a responsibility not to flush my medication
00:49:48.680 down the toilet. I have a responsibility to say thank you to the water because I need it in order
00:49:55.700 to live. And so it's really simple things that we have to remind ourselves to teach not just
00:50:02.960 ourselves again, but to teach everybody else. Beautiful. Thank you. And in preparing for our
00:50:10.640 conversation, I came across the history of shell mounds, which are sacred funerary mounds that
00:50:18.320 were across Ohlone territory prior to mass development. And within this story, you've also
00:50:24.260 spoken about how in 1909, Nels Nelson, an archaeologist, mapped the remaining shell mounds,
00:50:31.580 leaving a record of where these ancestors were buried, which really led me to think about the
00:50:36.340 importance of our actions today. Now, Nels Nelson didn't stop development, and he was certainly a
00:50:42.680 part of the very society responsible for destroying these burial sites. But small acts can help future 0.94
00:50:49.020 generations subvert cultural amnesia and serve as a conduit for remembrance. So I wonder if you'd
00:50:55.560 be willing to share the ongoing importance of preserving and protecting these shell mounds,
00:51:00.620 as well as your wish for how folks can meaningfully contribute to the restoring of the land,
00:51:06.980 even through small acts. That's a great question. You know, Nelson, I believe that my ancestors
00:51:15.100 put particular people, gave them particular jobs, and they did them.
00:51:18.820 Way before I was born, even before my mom was born, that Nelson created this map.
00:51:23.500 And why would he do that?
00:51:24.700 Who cares if a bunch of shell mounds were being destroyed, a bunch of Indian burial sites
00:51:30.220 were being destroyed.
00:51:31.080 But for some reason, he knew that they were really important.
00:51:33.400 And there was mass development happening in 1909 around the Bay Area.
00:51:39.340 And he knew that these were funerary places.
00:51:41.920 and he thought they were important enough to map them.
00:51:46.380 And so he found on his original map 425 of them
00:51:50.360 that ring the Bay Area.
00:51:51.920 And it gives us a footprint of where our ancestors were.
00:51:55.280 He didn't have to, the development was gonna happen.
00:51:57.620 It did happen anyway, but he put this map together
00:52:00.780 and it allowed us to have, 0.58
00:52:03.580 after I talked about the genocide that happened
00:52:07.300 three consecutive times in our territory,
00:52:10.100 It gave us a map to really remember the ancestors so that they could remember us.
00:52:17.160 And I really, truly believe that's what happened when we did the shell mound walks between 2005 and 2008,
00:52:24.540 that we walked these shell mounds for four years, praying at the places that they had been.
00:52:32.860 And we know from experience that these shell mounds,
00:52:36.220 even though they're covered by railroad tracks and bars and apartment buildings and schools and
00:52:41.380 parking lots that underneath them still remains our sacred places and still remain many of our
00:52:48.880 ancestors buried and so it's our responsibility to go to those places and to pray at them
00:52:55.540 and to acknowledge that our ancestors were there just like we had done for thousands and thousands
00:53:01.120 of years. The one shell mound, you know, we, in 1999, we tried to stop the development of the
00:53:09.320 Bay Street Mall. And the Bay Street Mall is built on top of one of the largest of the 425 shell
00:53:16.700 mounds that circled the Bay Area. It was a brownfield before the city of Emeryville decided
00:53:22.820 to put a mall on it. And we asked then if they would just clean up the brownfield and allow it
00:53:28.700 to be open space to talk about the history but also the resiliency of the Ohlone people and
00:53:34.180 instead they put a shell mound there and decided to create a little representation for thousands
00:53:41.120 of years. So of course we ask people to come out every year on the day after Thanksgiving and
00:53:46.360 participate in a ceremony and a sign waving and information giving that we've done for
00:53:52.780 now 20 years. But we also are protecting and preserving the West Berkeley Shell Mound,
00:53:58.940 the oldest shell mound in the Bay Area. It's on 4th and University, and it lies underneath
00:54:05.200 a parking lot. And for the last four years, we have done interfaith ceremonies there,
00:54:11.160 prayer there. We have invited people from all over the world that have come and prayed with us and
00:54:15.980 stood with us. And it's really the allies and accomplices that have showed up at meetings and
00:54:21.720 have sent in letters of support and have really done beautiful artwork on the land and have really
00:54:29.700 supported the work of the Ohlone people in preserving this sacred site from being developed
00:54:34.580 upon. And now I know people's eyes might see a parking lot, but for us, this is part of our
00:54:40.120 cosmology. It's a place where our ancestors first lived along the bay, right along Strawberry Creek.
00:54:46.520 There were more than one shell mound that had been there. It was a place of ceremony. It was where we had song and where we sent our ancestors to what is now called Alcatraz and had ceremony on these lands before they took off through what we call the Western Gate, where our ancestors go to the next journey, where is now the Golden Gate Bridge.
00:55:08.540 And so this particular sacred site that we've been fighting to preserve and protect, we won a lawsuit that we joined in with the city of Berkeley against the developers in December.
00:55:20.480 but of course the developers are taking it back to court and so we're continuing to fight that
00:55:26.440 and so you know during COVID we have not been able to meet there as much but we did have an
00:55:34.240 interfaith prayer service there a few weeks back that we was on Facebook live and I think folks
00:55:40.960 can still access that if they'd like to but also shellmound.org talks about the history of the
00:55:47.280 plays allows people to donate to our legal fund because this is a legal battle. Our sacred sites
00:55:54.480 and ancestral burial places are not covered by federal or state laws so that they don't get
00:56:00.740 destroyed. Newer ceremonies, you know, places where my mom and my dad are buried right now,
00:56:07.360 where we would never think about putting, you know, Dunkin' Donuts on or anything,
00:56:12.160 but not so much about our ancient burial sites and so really encourage people to go there look
00:56:18.880 to help us to to continue to fight to save this place we have a concept there what we would like
00:56:25.220 to do if that we ever get a willing cellar we would like to recreate a shell mound there where
00:56:31.800 we could talk about it we would like to put an arbor there we'd like to open up strawberry creek
00:56:35.960 where it originally went across that land so that people can see the water so many of our waterways
00:56:41.700 are underneath the cement and streets and nobody sees the beauty of that water. And we forget.
00:56:49.380 And so, you know, that's what I would encourage people to do about the shell mound. 0.99
00:56:55.620 Well, at this time, we feel how so many are trying to break away from this culture that
00:57:01.040 has forced our hand into domination, propelling us to the end through exploitation of people and
00:57:07.620 land. And as we come to a close, I'd like to ask how you see us moving into this space where
00:57:14.700 the desire for ending our ongoing consumption and exploitation exists in tandem with profound
00:57:22.120 affirmations of indigenous sovereignty and liberation for all. What is your vision for
00:57:27.520 land restoration? And what are the tools that you see are necessary to resist anything that
00:57:33.220 disrupts the healing sanctity and rhythm of life i think we just need to stop as human beings you
00:57:43.580 know i you know i always go back when i talk to you know my kids i talk to other people i was like
00:57:49.400 you know you can go into a store and you can see i don't know hundreds of uh little plastic say
00:57:55.840 say they're little plastic chairs for kids right you can see hundreds of them stacked up and you
00:58:00.360 can go and then imagine that multiplied throughout the country and like 50 stores in every city has
00:58:09.080 the same thing why do we need all of that why why is there this need of this i think we need to
00:58:15.500 think about living together in smaller places um really talking about going back to almost like a
00:58:23.280 village-like living, where everything that you need is within walking or biking distance.
00:58:30.260 You have your schools, you have food available, that you have doctors that are living there,
00:58:36.320 that we live in a smaller, we have to go back into making a smaller footprint,
00:58:41.440 that we have everything available here. We need to get away from this idea of consumption and
00:58:47.580 capitalism and go back to a way where we're sharing with each other. This idea of, I think
00:58:53.660 people are beginning to come up with this idea, even within the cities, if they have trees that
00:58:59.080 have plums on them and somebody else has lemons on them, that maybe we can exchange stuff that we
00:59:03.840 need, that there's enough food that we don't have to think that we need everything out there. We
00:59:09.800 really need to stop producing stuff that's not necessary. We really need to produce only the
00:59:15.800 things that we need in order to survive. We need to produce music and art. We need to have joy and
00:59:21.920 ceremony. We need to have, we need to stop thinking that, you know, one of the things that COVID
00:59:27.020 has really taught me as well is that all of these meetings that we thought were necessary
00:59:32.460 are not as necessary as we thought they were. You know, all of the time that we spent running to
00:59:39.320 this place and that place was not necessary. It's taught us that we need to spend more time
00:59:44.540 with our families because we yearn to spend time with our families that we've not been able to
00:59:49.200 touch and hold it reminds us of what is really possible in this world again is that we don't
00:59:55.520 need to work for somebody we need to work for the collective better of all of us that we need to
01:00:01.420 clean up our waterways and that we we need to ask for permission and we asked we need to ask for
01:00:07.020 forgiveness we need to say we're sorry that we've destroyed all of that was given to us to take care
01:00:13.800 and that we can make it better we know that we have the technology right now to actually reverse
01:00:20.300 some of these things to open up the creeks to clean them up we have enough hands to actually
01:00:26.020 put in the the plant life that's going to actually clear the waters again we have a we have we don't
01:00:31.920 need oil we need to leave it in the ground we need to figure out a different way of being on this
01:00:37.440 earth with less things and i think that that's it was we don't need the things we need each other
01:00:43.360 We need to be back and in right relationships with each other and for everything else that
01:00:49.420 lives on the earth.
01:00:50.640 I think that one of the great things that our relatives in Outra Aurora, New Zealand
01:00:56.200 is doing is that they're creating.
01:00:58.380 And it's crazy that we have to think in this kind of a way, but it's in order for human
01:01:02.920 beings, I guess, to wrap their minds around it again, but to make water and mountains
01:01:07.920 have personhood, to give land a personhood so that we can begin to think that they have the
01:01:14.440 same rights as us, right? Water is alive and we need it in order to survive. So give it the right
01:01:21.780 to do what it's supposed to do. And so this is necessary that corporations in this country have
01:01:29.500 personhood. That is beyond why would we do something like that? When we need to give the
01:01:36.160 land and the water and the mountains and the trees and the fish their own rights to sovereignty
01:01:42.560 so that we can come back in right relationship I think that that's what we need to do in order
01:01:48.780 for us to survive in order for our grandchildren to survive we need to come back and if that's
01:01:55.100 the way we need to do it then I think that that then we should use that tool to do it
01:02:00.400 Wow, Karina, that was just, I don't have words. Thank you so much for all that you have said
01:02:11.360 in this last response and the entire conversation. Thank you so much for your time. And I want to
01:02:19.100 encourage any of our listeners who live in Ohlone territory to look into paying the shi'umi tax.
01:02:24.980 And Karina, I'd like to ask you if there is anything else that you'd like to share or request from our listeners in this moment.
01:02:32.060 Yeah, I thank you, Ayana, for this wonderful conversation today. I ask people, wherever they're listening from, to work with the Indigenous peoples on whose land they are, to realize that where they're living has thousands of years of history, of language, of song, of ceremony, to find out how they could help to give back land to Indigenous people, to work towards a working relation of reciprocity while we're on their territory.
01:03:02.060 to figure out how best to, for all of us in order to survive is to go back and to remember how to
01:03:10.040 live in a better way and grow food, grow medicine, share food, and not think of food as a commodity,
01:03:20.020 but it's something that every living person and being should have access to. And I think that,
01:03:25.560 you know, as we go forward together in this world, that we walk on her a little
01:03:32.160 more gently. Thank you, Ayanna, so much.
01:03:41.340 Thank you for listening to another episode of For the Wild podcast. The music you heard today
01:03:46.640 was by Shana Gladstone and Amo Amo. For the Wild is created by Ayanna Young, Erica Ekrem,
01:03:52.720 Francesca Glasfell and Melanie Younger.