00:01:36.280This is always the challenge with people I really want to talk to.
00:01:39.860I think I want to start with really rooting into the themes of your most recent book,
00:01:43.960A Year in Practice, which offers rituals and poems and meditations for a life guided by
00:01:51.740the seasons, which I really, really resonate with.
00:01:55.680So maybe we could begin with a question about how you're feeling into fall right now.
00:02:03.640Oh, yes. I feel the feeling of fall is really heavy on me in this moment where I'm a little
00:02:12.960sick. I'm like entering the season of leaving summer behind and there's some grief in that.
00:02:20.440And I think that I'm seeing the horizon of winter and longing for it. So I have to be
00:02:29.840careful not to skip over the gift of fall and the last big push of the harvest and the gathering
00:02:38.580energy that comes with fall. But I'm definitely excited to rest this winter. Yes, I am always
00:02:46.320looking forward to what I've been lovingly calling cuddle season, which is upon us. And
00:02:53.780And I think the slowdown is so necessary for the earth and also for us. We can't go, go, go all the time. And as much as I love the fruits of summer, it's just so much and it's so much to keep up. It's really chaotic.
00:03:10.100And so when winter rolls around, you know, or the fall transition, knowing that winter is coming, it's like, okay, there's no more harvesting right now or very little harvesting.
00:03:23.360And it's time to go internal and to take stock of our lives and, you know, go into whatever rituals we go into.
00:03:33.720And it's also heavy, definitely a lot of tenderness for me too.
00:03:37.240And yeah, there's actually a quote that I wanted to read from a year in practice and you write,
00:03:43.740as October arrives, we've regulated a bit more, feeling our way into coolness,
00:03:49.520deciphering the gifts of the harvest and finding the fulcrum of the season. This is the month when
00:03:55.720the cycle of death really sets in, the veil is thin and the growing world begins to completely
00:04:00.600shut down. There's still that bright spark in the air as the trees make their closing remarks
00:04:06.620with dried leaves and bare branches and so there's still time to revel in the outdoors before the
00:04:12.540cold comes end quote yeah I really feel that and I'm wondering if you have any
00:04:21.200recommendations or ideas or inspirations for listeners in the northern hemisphere
00:04:27.140as we enter into October and really enter the thick of autumn
00:04:31.720I think there's some sense of this kind of last push that I like to be really sensitive around
00:04:43.420which is this feeling of not rushing like I said towards winter which I'm really excited about but
00:04:51.220also not rushing to attend to that spark of fall I feel like it can in a similar way that spring
00:05:00.840offers this kind of really frantic energy that fall can kind of get into this like really heightened
00:05:08.420state, this crisp air and that feeling of sort of like, there's so much to do. And it really,
00:05:16.380I always like to remember to kind of check in with that and use it accordingly. So make sure
00:05:22.880that I'm choosing wisely kind of what my last push is for and how do I want to intentionally
00:05:31.680move towards whatever that is. And, you know, in the book, I talk a lot about creative practice
00:05:37.180and being an artist, but I also think just in general, whatever is happening in our lives in
00:05:42.900the fall, we get this opportunity to kind of choose where we want to give that last big spark.
00:05:50.760And I think that that's what I'm most interested in right now is kind of like taking a breath, having a pause and a beat and sort of redefining and giving myself some clarity around what is that, what will be the recipient of that final push.
00:06:10.460When you say recipient of that final push, could you speak a bit more to that?
00:06:15.460Yeah, I think I mean, like, will I put my energy into this project before the winter comes? Will I put my energy into seeing all my friends and family before the winter comes? Will I put my energy into myself and like getting my health in line or my own internal energy charged up for my time of introspection to come?
00:06:40.780And I love kind of tending to that as a choice and knowing that there's all this potential and possibility that you could utilize with that vibrant feeling of fall, but that you actually do get to choose which direction to kind of give that charge to.
00:06:58.820And I think sometimes we can rush through that choice and just being a little bit more careful with that and kind of tuning into, okay, well, this thing could actually wait and I don't need to utilize this glorious gift of fall energy to help me make this thing happen.
00:07:18.240But this, on the other hand, doesn't feel like it can wait. And I'm given this gift right now of this energetic offering so I can put it in that direction. And just the kind of clarity around that choice.
00:07:32.420yeah you have a poem from the collection the edge of the continent volume one the forest called
00:07:40.060autumn arrives and i don't know if you would read it for us right now i'm also happy to read it as
00:07:46.860well but is that something that you'd be open to yeah i gotta look it up i figured you didn't have
00:07:54.620right in front of me autumn arrives wind moves the bay laurel leaves conducting a sound i imagine
00:08:04.640porcupine quills make while rising or what i suppose the raising of a dog's ruff would sound
00:08:11.980like if only we could hear the gesture of fur i want to pinpoint the season's shift if only to
00:08:20.860celebrate it properly. Which birds stop trilling first? Do certain plants sigh relief? Summer
00:08:29.820gives its final hours of warmth, saved for late afternoon when I have given up on sun.
00:08:37.480Suddenly the sky goes blue with October's brightness. Good tricks of light, nothing
00:08:44.860immediate, all these starts and stops to prepare me for a pause, a time of deep rest.
00:08:53.840That's just perfect as I'm looking out my window right now. I really felt it.
00:08:59.940And yeah, I think we so often have trouble with the season shifting because we can't pinpoint
00:09:06.440the moment of exact transition. It's far more fluid and uncontrollable than that. And so I'm
00:09:14.280wondering how can paying attention to the seasons also encourage us to embrace rhythms outside of
00:09:20.720our own? Right. It's so nuanced. So there's this kind of tuning into the rhythm of whatever the
00:09:30.500seasonal kind of character is wherever you live. And then I think that that just guides us to kind
00:09:38.080of know ourselves even more like if you start looking at how you specifically respond to the
00:09:44.480seasons and how they shift and change then I think you get this great glimpse into yourself and that's
00:09:53.120kind of what like at the very heart of everything I'm talking about in a year in practice is this
00:09:59.580offering of self-reflection and self-understanding that the earth inherently gives us time for.
00:10:09.320And I think that that's the kind of rhythm I'm really interested in is a very personal
00:10:14.380rhythm. How does your personal spirit connect to the rhythms of the planet? And the seasons are
00:10:23.660sort of just a built-in guidepost for that. So I think it's just something that I've done so much
00:10:29.360work around exploring and noticing. And I'm just so interested to see, I bet so many other things
00:10:36.160will come up for other people as they explore this because everyone's so different. So the
00:10:42.460seasonal impacts will be different for everyone, especially with just the rhythms of a person's
00:10:47.700life. And what happened to you as a child during the fall affects how you feel about the fall now.
00:10:54.720And what happened to you when you were a child was different than what happened to me. So
00:10:58.620there'll be all these personal takes, but I do think that there's just this kind of almost a
00:11:05.700standard, like a guidepost built into this seasonal rhythm that I do think works for
00:11:11.480just on the human level. Yeah. And I wanted to read another excerpt from A Year in Practice
00:11:21.640where you write, as humans we're caught in a long cycle of forgetfulness. There's so much in our
00:11:29.180current culture that distracts us from the inherent information the earth provides. We've replaced
00:11:34.560the cyclical gifts of the seasons with controlled temperatures, ceaseless production schedules,
00:11:40.520a year-round access to always ripe fruit. We've cut so many of our roots that connect us with the
00:11:46.700ebb and flow of earthly process. These changes have brought us comfort and a sense of advancement,
00:11:52.560but they've also disconnected us from the natural pattern of rest and revitalization.
00:11:57.820End quote. And I'd love to discuss this idea of forgetfulness and disconnection a bit more,
00:12:04.700because I feel like when we're disconnected, we're more inclined to search for the meaning
00:12:10.540we're missing outside of ourselves and outside of the earth. And I think this really hurts us
00:12:18.760in the long run. And so, yeah, I'd love to hear a bit more about your thoughts on our modern
00:12:24.960era of disconnection and how that really does... Well, it's very apparent in our
00:12:33.200lack of connection to seasonality. Yeah. I think that that quote that you just
00:12:38.720read is probably like the heart of the book. The thesis of it is just, if I could give anyone
00:12:46.360anything through all of my work, all of my poems and everything is just this sort of ability to
00:12:52.460remember that the earth exists and that we are the earth and that we are the same as this planet
00:13:01.500that we're living on. And we forget that connection so often. And I think that means we
00:13:05.600always are in this position of overlooking these, I mean, magical tools that offer us so much
00:13:15.300insight and inspiration and guidance, but we're just so disconnected from that. And I think,
00:13:22.060I think that the idea of offering language around that as a writer is sort of just like
00:13:30.260one step in the process like language is important and it is this great tool but then there's the
00:13:40.000whole other aspect of what you find as an individual in this process of you know following
00:13:48.520these rituals or prompts that I offer in this book and then what does that feel like in your
00:13:54.520body to remember that you are the earth and that you are actually aligned with the rhythmic
00:14:00.760quality of the seasons. And I think in that remembering, there's so much to uncover. Like
00:14:07.820there's so much that's been concealed by just the framework of our world. And that I just guess as
00:14:16.320a poet, I'm always examining. I'm just trying to ask folks to examine that with me and figure out
00:14:24.360what is there in each season to follow the lead of. There's arrows and guidance and
00:14:31.380it's abundant. It's endless. It's an infinite gift the earth gives us constantly. And the
00:14:38.720seasons I think are really just like a very clear cut version of that. And I'm excited for like what
00:14:47.040we can reap from that because there's so much that's offered to us just in even just the
00:14:52.680information that comes in our bodies as the season changes. It's just, you know, the earth
00:14:58.080is saying, okay, now do this, like sit down now or take a rest now, take a break now. And we've
00:15:04.800forgotten what that guidance sounds like. We've forgotten how to tune into it. And I just think
00:15:11.940it's so easy for us in certain ways to tune back in if we're given the tools and the opportunity,
00:15:18.060but also the time and the access. And so then, you know, on the same hand, it's both and it's
00:15:23.800not easy. There's a lot in the way of it. Yeah, absolutely. And I was thinking about
00:15:31.440this quote from Climbing Poetry and one of their poems and it was the antidote to destruction
00:15:39.960is creativity. And so when I'm thinking about not so much destruction, but maybe disconnection,
00:15:46.840Maybe creativity is also an antidote to that disconnection because when we are challenged by whatever it is in our lives that keep us from reconnecting, keep us from having the space to sink in or take heed or shift our schedules, but how can we be creative in these challenging moments to get back to a sense of belonging, of earthly rhythms?
00:16:14.760And so I guess I'm wondering from you, how does the earth fuel your creative practices? How do you find your creative practices even amidst all of the noise of modern life and busyness?
00:16:31.520I think figuring out different ways to keep the earth as the central focus and the muse, it's just really me going outside, finding time to tune into the trees in the park down the street from my house and finding the trails that I love to go on and giving myself the time and space to listen.
00:16:59.520A huge part of it, I think, is that. It's just me valuing that time and space that it takes to listen. And I think the quality of what I receive from that will inspire a poem, inspire this new book. It inspires everything in my life. And I think that the reason why is sort of inherent.
00:17:23.260I think even as a young child, I was just tuned into receiving messages from the earth and collecting bugs and bones and shells and feathers and just surrounding myself with these earthly treasures.
00:17:40.100But also, I even then remember this sense of sort of reverence and worship.
00:17:47.680And then at some point, when I was in my 20s, I married the earth and chose the earth as my spouse.
00:17:55.100spouse. And I think that there's this ongoing connection that I have that actually at this
00:18:04.160point in my life feels just very steady and present in all that I do. And I think the way
00:18:13.120that I continue to uphold that connection is really just to be outside or witness someone else
00:18:20.880in their state of wonder. When I see someone who I love or some students who I work with
00:18:27.480in awe and in wonder, and the earth is the thing that's guiding them in that feeling,
00:18:33.780I'm just reaffirmed. There's a lot of affirmation that I felt when I was writing this book that was
00:18:40.320just like, yeah, so you look into this, delve into what the seasons mean to you. And this is
00:18:47.540a different kind of book than I've ever written before. I did all of this research and I actually
00:18:52.340wrote each one of the seasonal chapters with the season. So I wrote the winter chapter during the
00:19:01.380winter and I wrote the fall chapter during the fall. And it was, I did not plan that. And so
00:19:08.600sometimes there's just this kind of magic that's inherent with connecting with the earth that gives
00:19:14.700me this great proof. It's like, oh, well, in case you were curious or wondering whether or not this
00:19:20.020was potent and real, here's another example of how it is. And here's another symbol or another
00:19:26.580visitor of animal form or another, you know, beautiful plant that's blooming to send you a
00:19:33.040message. And I think just allowing myself to continue to freely tune into that and let it
00:19:40.320inspire me and let my imagination and intuition kind of receive language from all of that to then
00:19:49.420put into poetry or put into books. It just really continues to be an affirmation that, yeah, this
00:19:55.880connection, it's real. And I'm just a human like everyone else. So I'm very much under the
00:20:01.900impression that that means it's there for everyone. And they just need to be reminded of that.
00:20:07.980Yeah. I'm also thinking more about seasonality and connection. And I guess in this moment being reminded that with climate change and just the shifts of our Earth, it can be hard or even at times undesirable for us or maybe uncomfortable to connect with the seasons.
00:20:37.980because there's so much unpredictability and fear even around what seasons hold or confusion.
00:20:47.100And so I know you've spoken a lot about regulation, emotional regulation, physical regulation,
00:20:55.440and I'm trying to imagine or wonder with you of how we continue to strive for emotional and
00:21:04.700physical regulation, how we stay regulated as the earth tries to regulate through these huge
00:21:11.800climactic shifts. Yes. I did a lot of meditating on everything you just spoke of as I was working
00:21:23.480on this book, because to me, that's such an obvious and charged aspect of focusing on the
00:21:33.000seasons. And I think the message that I kept receiving around this was, yeah, our seasons
00:21:40.680are leaving us. Our seasons are changing. And that is very real. And what better moment to memorize
00:21:49.480what they've offered us before they change and become unrecognizable. And I do think that there's
00:21:57.060a great amount of fear and also a deep despair woven into that truth. And I think that the thing
00:22:04.400that I kept coming up against that I was just so interested in was this sense of, you know,
00:22:10.520we might lose the seasons as we know them in our lifetime. We are, that's what's happening,
00:22:17.520but we won't change before we die. We won't lose our connection to that rhythmic cycle
00:22:25.700and almost like a last acknowledgement to the earth and what bounty and abundance and amazing
00:22:35.700gifts it's offered us is this seasonal rhythm that I think will live inside of our bodies,
00:22:41.280even as the seasons change. And so as I wrote the book, I thought, okay, this is something that we
00:22:47.180have to learn now because when it shifts and changes, we will be left here still needing
00:22:54.540that rhythm. And to me, it feels like this way of honoring that. And also it feels so necessary for
00:23:04.200our ability to thrive and survive, even as the earth is shifting under our presence.
00:23:14.900That was really a beautiful response. And it's such a conundrum right now. Like I think about,
00:23:22.700I mean, every season, but for those living in the so-called American West, like fire season, summer season, where maybe for those of us millennials or older, summer used to represent something that was more carefree maybe.
00:23:42.320Or like, I don't know, I think about summer as a child and I wasn't thinking about fire and smoke and things like that. I was probably thinking about watermelon or more like fun times.
00:23:57.840And yeah, sure, I could say, well, I was a kid, but I think, of course, children now are really aware of climate change and the concerns of the earth and their families and being impacted by forest fires.
00:24:13.680And so, yeah, I'm really just feeling our humanity and having a lot of compassion for us as we're in this changing world and we are attempting to change with it, but maybe not sure exactly how or where to change to.
00:24:31.700And so it's like, no, you can't run from it. This isn't about an exodus from place. This is something much more internal because the climate has been changed. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't really believe anybody does.
00:24:51.920And so what can we do inside of ourselves to find rhythm and seasonality even, or can attach to something that feels steady even when everything around us feels unstable?
00:25:05.640And I think we actually really need that steadiness to survive these changes and to care for each other and to remain or try to find tenderness and compassion and gentleness with each other.
00:25:24.520We need to find some type of regulation in the chaos.
00:25:27.780Yeah. I mean, that's, I feel very much that that is, that's exactly how I feel about it is this sense of almost like in the grieving and in the understanding of what we're losing with the earth, almost as this, I like to think of the earth as, you know, my beloved or my spouse, but also like my family member.
00:25:53.860And I had a conversation with a friend last summer that was like, yeah, you wouldn't want to walk away from your family member who is dying.
00:26:04.500You would sit with them and hold them and look at them and take them in and also think about how they got to this point and memorize whatever you could about what they'd offered you.
00:26:17.940And I think that that's how it feels to me is this sense of memorizing the earth's offerings and making sure that while I'm alive, that they live through me and I live in accordance to that.
00:26:35.060And also, you know, showing respect and celebrating that. And then maybe even to the extent that I write it all down and offer it to other people so that other generations have the opportunity to remember it as well. Because if it's not there for them, that doesn't mean that it's not teaching them something still.
00:26:53.800And I just think that there's a lot in that. There's a lot in that. Yes, we are watching the climate change. We are watching this and the grief is real. But also, that doesn't mean we should turn away from it and forget what it's offering us.
00:27:11.520And I love that you said that, you know, there's nowhere to run away to.
00:27:17.840I actually have a poem that I would like to read that that brought up for me.
00:29:07.900i wanted to speak to you a bit about your connection to forest and that reminded me of
00:29:29.460that and yeah it seems like it's a space of so much inspiration and and also belonging in your
00:29:37.080work like a sense of home and in one poem that saved a forest for yes magazine you discuss quote
00:29:44.880the most unlikely pair the poet and the timber baron and i'd really love to hear more about
00:29:51.200this relationship and the power of poetry and connection that you experience through it
00:29:56.420yeah that story just continues to fuel so many things in my life um i met my friend neil who is
00:30:06.740said timber baron at the farmer's market in Arcata, California. And I was typing poems
00:30:15.320on my typewriter. I did this project poem store for over a decade where I typed poems for people
00:30:23.560on the spot and they could pay me whatever they wanted to. And they chose a subject and
00:30:27.740it was really the most incredible introduction to the human condition that I could have ever
00:30:33.800hoped for. And in that, I met Neil and he actually commissioned me to write a poem
00:30:40.720for his family. His wife had passed away and they were wanting something really specific
00:30:47.580to put her ashes in the ocean. And through this connection, I mean, you can imagine that that's
00:30:55.680incredibly vulnerable and deep space of grief to meet someone in. And I didn't know who he was when
00:31:02.560I wrote him that poem. And it enabled us to become really close friends really quickly.
00:31:11.060And then I realized that he was the senior vice president of one of the largest timber companies
00:31:16.140in the country. And obviously for someone who is married to the earth, that is an incredibly
00:31:23.220unlikely person for me to want to hang out with. But from that, so many things happened. I could
00:31:31.840just, I'm still extremely close with Neil and his family, and he is family to me.
00:31:40.180And we have collaborated in so many ways, but mostly because I wrote this poem that
00:31:47.800enabled this really vulnerable connection between us to exist, there was this trust
00:31:54.660built and this pathway for us to collaborate on ideas around changing the status quo of
00:32:03.860the timber industry and, you know, communicating about permaculture and mycelium and all of these
00:32:11.380things. And Neil was just so open to it because we met through this place of poetry. And I've
00:32:18.680continued to kind of use that as my foundation in a lot of my work where, you know, you just
00:32:24.280never really know what someone is going through and someone can be in a position of power and if
00:32:30.360you have compassion for them you might find a way in that you wouldn't otherwise and that is a place
00:32:36.740where great change can happen and big doors can open and I think that I'm now interested in just
00:32:45.280the direct connection between how a single poem can be the thing that opens that door.
00:32:54.940And if you allow yourself to kind of put on the poetry hat or even just the mindset of
00:33:02.540a poet, just the mindset alone can kind of unlock different things.
00:33:08.340And usually it's a connection or communication.
00:33:11.920and I know I have this other book that I wrote called Every Day is a Poem and that's all it's
00:33:18.160about is just trying to offer people this direct link to this poet that lives inside of them and
00:33:25.140show them how expansive that can be and how that can directly connect to all these different
00:33:33.560experiences in life that will make great changes and bring great vision and I'm just really
00:33:41.020interested to see what comes of that. Yeah, I hear you. And I have been working on a campaign
00:33:50.460up in Alaska around protecting some really incredible salmon rivers. And during this time
00:33:58.220of community organizing, I have been hanging out with and befriending unlikely friends, I guess,
00:34:06.960in a similar way of what you're speaking to, finding the humanity and the connection between
00:34:13.880us all, even if we think the other person's the enemy. And it's really fascinating. And I wonder,
00:34:21.840I wonder what are we getting at from holding our righteousness? It's hard because in one way,
00:34:30.480I want to say, no, we need to hold boundaries. And there's the quote other that is doing the
00:34:35.200bad thing. And I think of course there's importance to holding that line, but then
00:34:42.040in one way or the other, it's like we all start to blend into one another. And it's like, where
00:34:47.400are the lines? And what is this doing? Is this separation supporting reconnection, which is what
00:34:56.560we need to heal and be in right relationship with each other in the earth? I think when I was younger
00:35:03.120and I was more fierce in my activist life. At that time, I was really binary thinking,
00:35:10.560good, bad. And now it's like, I'm good and I'm bad. And that person who's the other is probably
00:35:17.780both too. And where do we connect and how can we foster that connection to maybe come to common
00:35:26.440ground. And maybe we never do. And I guess I also kind of connect that to the climate change
00:35:32.680moment we're in, which is like, here we are. We are changed. We are changing. Everything around
00:35:40.280us is uncertain to an extent. And where do we find that stability within ourselves and with
00:35:47.460things we can't change? Yeah. I really resonate with that feeling of when we're younger in our
00:35:54.660like the height of this activist kind of culture when I was younger, I felt very binary in that
00:36:01.720way. And then I changed it when I met Neil and he really showed me that that is not the way to go
00:36:11.000about changing things. And honestly, you know, the, the folks who connected with him, because we
00:36:17.560basically were able to kind of create a project together that allowed him to connect with local
00:36:25.000first activists. And I remember viewing that as, okay, Neil is offering an olive branch and he's
00:36:36.620saying, we won't cut these trees down that you've been tree sitting. And that's that, like, this is
00:36:43.620the first step to us having a relationship together. And then the earth first folks,
00:36:50.740rightfully so, you know, celebrated that as a victory and the trees that they'd been protecting
00:36:56.620are now saved. But I think I look back on that example all the time because it just didn't go
00:37:05.840anywhere. The relationship didn't open up. The change did not continue. And there are
00:37:11.920millions of reasons why, some of which I probably don't have any understanding of,
00:37:17.680and some of which are very clear to me and make a lot of sense. But I think that we can't ever see
00:37:27.060an example like that and think, oh, that shouldn't have happened. You know, I'm really glad that that
00:37:34.340happened. I'm sad that it didn't go any further and that the collaboration didn't continue and
00:37:39.200a completely new system was created. But I'm also really glad that at least something happened.
00:37:45.120And I think that that's a lot of what I kind of reflect on with younger people that I work with
00:37:50.800is like, at least you can do something. You might not be able to change the entire system,
00:37:57.760which does need to be changed and dismantled and rebuilt. Absolutely. And all of our ideas
00:38:03.520and visions around that are so important and we should make time and space for envisioning a
00:38:09.760different future. But also we can't hold ourselves back when we do figure out some way to, like you
00:38:19.100were saying, connect with these people who are unlikely people for you to connect with. And there
00:38:24.200is something happening there. The little bridges are being built between us. And I think that part
00:38:31.360of why that's maybe really unsatisfying. It's just that we see the immensity of the problem
00:38:37.820and something needs to change now, but we actually don't necessarily have access to
00:38:44.760that speed and that rigor. We have to be patient and it doesn't feel like we have time for that.
00:38:52.060Mm-hmm. I feel that urgency and we don't have time and then all we have is time. We're somewhere in the middle of the endless possibility and also the end of possibility too. It's really confusing.
00:39:11.980We've probably all gone down our rabbit holes of how do we even begin to move through these
00:39:22.460I think there is something to the experimental quality of all of it, where as artists or
00:39:31.920creative people, or just honestly humans in general, we're constantly trying or experimenting,
00:39:40.640we're seeing what works, we're testing new things, we have a vision of something or a dream
00:39:47.280that we follow. And truly, I love to remember, and this gives me great solace, that it can all change
00:39:58.040so quickly. And that has happened many times throughout the history of humanity. Things have
00:40:06.740been unlocked and figured out. And I will say oftentimes in a negative direction, but also in
00:40:14.240a positive direction. And I think that we're at this point on our timeline where taking a moment
00:40:23.400for yourself to flesh out an idea, to write a poem, to make a song, to make a painting, to
00:40:34.240do something that extends the vision that you carry inside of yourself to the outside world
00:40:41.360that enables you to share whatever it is that you're envisioning. I think there's just so
00:40:47.460much potential in that. And that that's where these great seeds for something new will come
00:40:57.060from in our experiments, in our moments of figuring and digging deeper. And when I think
00:41:05.840about, you know, all the work that I do, it's easy for me to, it'd be so easy for me to just think,
00:41:14.240oh, who cares about writing poems? Like there's actual tangible, like parts of the earth that I
00:41:23.700could be, you know, an activist for or this or that. I could second guess myself and question
00:41:29.400my artistry. But I also am like, this is clearly what is meant to come through me. And I am meant
00:41:35.640to experiment with it. And I cannot deny that. And if I did deny that, that experiment, if I did
00:41:42.800deny my own figuring, then I would be denying the earth. I would be denying whatever, you know,
00:41:50.240cosmic tangle made up these atoms that make this person who I am, you know, and I think that that's
00:41:58.040true for all of us. Like we just can't turn away from the things that kind of inherently drive us
00:42:04.700and ask us to experiment and question and just try. And, you know, I've been working a lot with
00:42:11.480young people and creating this project that was totally inspired by Neil and my relationship with
00:42:20.460him. And that article that you mentioned, this person in Australia read that article about my
00:42:28.520relationship with Neil and was inspired and created this project called Palm Forest. And now
00:42:35.040poem forest is basically a way to let students have access to writing nature poetry and they're
00:42:42.660writing these poems and for every poem they write there's a tree that gets planted and so there's
00:42:49.560like this direct climate action where these kids are not only do they actually plant a tree but
00:42:54.960they also get to voice their deep concerns and fears and their complex ideas about the planet
00:43:02.080And I am now bringing that project to the United States and doing it here. And I've done it in Detroit. And it's just to witness what happens to someone, a young person in that place of poetry is just so, to me, it always makes me feel like, okay, see, things can change really quickly.
00:43:26.320these students found their ability to write and express themselves so quickly. They just needed
00:43:35.340the place for it. They needed access to it. They needed to know that they could. And they also
00:43:40.500got to plant trees and feel like they have agency in everything that's happening. And I think
00:43:47.360that's what I'm most interested in is if a young person can feel like they have agency
00:43:53.900in this complex complicated thing that we're talking about that's happening to our world
00:43:59.040then I'm like well I I most certainly can also and I will keep experimenting and keep figuring
00:44:07.360and keep my visions coming because in that something could shift
00:44:12.780and a whole new way of doing things could arise out of that
00:44:48.860I want to explore more of what your hope for young people is,
00:45:13.420especially as they are growing up in a time of so much noise and distraction and fear-mongering
00:45:22.000and probably confusion about what their future will look like or could look like when you're
00:45:28.880working on your projects with them? Like, yeah, what is your hope for them? And what is the
00:45:34.640feedback you get. I think my hope is that they too will receive the messages that the earth
00:45:44.220is offering and that that guidance will be restorative for them and show them sort of this
00:45:53.020endless potential and possibility that exists, even though the future is so unclear and scary.
00:46:02.340And I think seeing them connect to the earth and seeing how inherent that connection is, it gives me hope. And then I think also it gives them hope. They're like, oh, right, I'm part of this greater cosmic whirlwind.
00:46:20.340whirlwind. And although the future is so unclear, the earth is just, I have a lot of poems that kind
00:46:30.000of contain this sentiment that the earth will survive us all. And I think that having young
00:46:40.040people connect to the planet and recognizing that they are the planet, I do a lot of work with just
00:46:49.720this idea of them being nature that they are nature they're not separate from it they are it
00:46:56.180and watching them kind of revel in that I think it gives them some sense of infinity you know just
00:47:04.560this like ongoing glorious story of whatever it whatever it is that life is doing and that they
00:47:13.900are part of that and yes there is despair and darkness included but that's not all there is
00:47:20.600and that there's more than we could even possibly understand we don't understand it all and watching
00:47:27.660them kind of grapple with that and explore that shows me that they they have the ability to
00:47:35.120continue the experiment you know they're interested enough they're excited enough and
00:47:39.800And they just need the space and time to do that exploration.
00:47:46.760Yeah, I'm really grateful that you're doing that work.
00:47:50.140And I think that kids are growing up in a really different world.
00:47:56.240And I mean, so did I from my parents and grandparents.
00:47:59.440And maybe this is what every generation thinks about the generation below them.
00:48:04.480Like, oh my gosh, the world is so different.
00:48:06.240what's going to happen and how are they going to navigate through these times. But
00:48:10.900between the internet and AI and living in these fantasy worlds while the real world
00:48:19.500is escaping us so quickly. Yeah, I really, I guess one of my hopes for those of us that are
00:48:27.640coming up is finding time to be in the real world and not forgetting that it exists out there.
00:48:37.160And that if we don't pay attention to the real world, there will be very little of that autonomous
00:48:43.460nature around, which is really the basis of our existence.
00:48:49.560You know, I don't consider myself to be an immensely idealistic person or an uber positive
00:49:01.920person, but I do really enjoy balancing hope and hopelessness at the same time.
00:49:12.920And I really like to do that in the classroom and not just feed these kids some sort of, you know, idealistic version of a future that doesn't exist for them.
00:49:27.160But actually kind of connecting with the earth and letting the earth be the main muse and guide in our conversations sort of allows for what I think to be a practice in memory and them memorizing the planet and also learning to care for it and learning that they already do care for it.
00:49:57.160And that the earth is very much alive and well in them and their ability to connect to it is fast.
00:50:07.140It's right there under the surface when they recognize the reciprocity that exists between them and the trees, when they recognize how good it feels to offer up their gratitude for everything that the planet offers them.
00:50:27.160I can see them click into the importance of that.
00:50:33.000And maybe that will end up in the future just being something that supports their grief over the planet.
00:50:40.620It supports their grief in what they've lost.
00:50:44.520And I know I already feel that grief and I have the ability to understand it and name it.
00:50:51.860But if they don't have the chance to even connect to what the earth was and is, then they won't be able to grieve it fully.
00:51:01.460And that sort of is a rebuttal, is like something that comes up against this like plastic world that we're like, yeah, maybe we will be living in this very detached, veneered position, this place of 3D printing and all these things that you're talking about.
00:51:24.320But hopefully there will be a memory. There will be a place for that grief that these kids will even be, you know, introduced to what was.
00:51:35.960i i just really i can't help but think that that's what's important in in this sense of
00:51:44.140remembering that the earth exists is this yeah even if there's no way for us to combat it
00:51:50.220on this sort of like historians touch but also just in the in the world of grief like if we can
00:51:58.160remember the history of the planet then the immensity of our grief will make more sense
00:52:03.320to us in the future or something and maybe like offer us some sense of clarity around why we are
00:52:11.980grieving so deeply. Because I think that's a big thing is I think people feel the grief for the
00:52:16.780loss of this planet and everything that's happened to it so far without even knowing it. They feel
00:52:24.140it, but their connection to it or their clarity around it, they just haven't been given the time
00:52:28.380the space or the accessibility to, to know what that even is.
00:52:32.720Oh, Jacqueline, I love where this has been and where we're going into this, um, like
00:53:38.980I mentioned it earlier. It's called To Watch the Earth Die.
00:53:46.020Just as true love has nothing to do with purity, I know that although I don't want to watch you die, I am.
00:53:56.080I note the daily losses, the parts of you that shrivel up, the leaving birds and frogs, the sickened fish and rivers, the weakness of your breath.
00:54:09.820I won't turn away from you while you groan under our pressure.
00:54:14.380Your witness, I sing of all that human hands have touched.
00:54:21.880I make lyrics to record our damage, where we've cut you as if you were our beard, our hair, our own to reap.
00:54:32.800I circle around you as you wither and push light into your skin, saying while weeping, I wish it weren't so.