For The Wild - November 22, 2023


KURT RUSSO on a Prayer of Mourning ⧸357

Topics
orcas in captivity climate change dams salmon treaty dark forces origin
ERIN MANNING on the Choreography of Neurodiversity ⧸356 BETTY MARTIN on The Language of Consent ⧸358

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 3 minutes

Words per minute

110.57

Word count

7,056

Sentence count

448

Harmful content

Misogyny

11

sentences flagged

Toxicity

5

sentences flagged

Hate speech

29

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to For The Wild Podcast. I'm Ayanna Young. Today we are speaking with
00:00:10.000 Kurt Russo.
00:00:13.000 These correspondences that are telling us, are telling us through her life, through
00:00:20.640 your life, through life, there's something essentially divine about all of this. Every
00:00:28.960 bit of it. Every bit of it. I don't have a denominational religion, but I love nature
00:00:35.540 and I'm willing to take a risk to understand her.
00:00:43.320 Kurt Russo is currently the executive director of the Indigenous-led non-profit that is dedicated
00:00:48.620 to the application of ancestral knowledge to reimagine our relationship to the nature of
00:00:54.400 nature. He worked with the Lummi Nation from 1978 to 2020 in the area of sacred sites and
00:01:00.980 treaty rights. He also served as executive director of the Native American Lands Conservancy
00:01:06.000 in California from 1998 to 2016 and was the senior advisor to the Kumier de Gagno Land
00:01:12.900 Conservancy of Southern California. He was the co-founder and executive director of the Florence
00:01:17.900 our Clacone Center for the Study of Values from 1987 to 2002. He has a BS and MS in forestry and
00:01:25.300 a PhD in history. He has worked abroad with indigenous communities in their efforts to
00:01:30.280 preserve their ancestral lands and knowledge in Mexico, Guatemala, Brazil, Ecuador, Peru,
00:01:36.240 Bolivia, and Chile. Oh, Kurt, it's so meaningful and special to be
00:01:47.600 speaking with you again. And I know that personally, and for our audience,
00:01:53.060 our last conversation together was so impactful. And yeah, it just feels really important to be
00:01:59.720 checking back in with you. So thanks for joining us.
00:02:03.640 Likewise.
00:02:05.320 Oh, goodness. It's hard to know how to begin talking and mourning together for Tokatai.
00:02:12.520 and I just really want to start and focus this conversation in reverence to her.
00:02:20.960 Tokutai, for those of you who don't know her,
00:02:24.580 she was a southern resident orca who died at the Miami Seaquarium recently.
00:02:30.460 And our first conversation detailed the fight to bring her home.
00:02:36.840 and now her ashes have been brought back to the salish sea where her relatives swim freely but
00:02:43.960 oh gosh clearly this is not the outcome that we so many of us had hoped for so
00:02:51.320 i wonder if we can begin
00:02:58.020 with, I know it's a hard question maybe to ask you about your grief, but it feels really at
00:03:07.320 the surface and maybe that's an important place for us to begin. It's really a pleasure to be
00:03:18.940 with you again, and it's very difficult at the same time, I want to offer a prayer offered
00:03:34.000 to us by a spiritual leader from the Spirit Dance Society, and he's a spirit dancer of
00:03:42.180 the Lemmy Nation recently passed away.
00:03:43.740 He had a prayer in moments like this.
00:03:46.960 He would say, when we die, we put our relatives into Mother Earth.
00:04:00.480 and when we get sad
00:04:04.160 for them
00:04:06.740 we put our hand on the ground
00:04:10.760 and we can feel their heartbeat
00:04:15.160 and we pick up our drum
00:04:20.360 and we sing to them
00:04:25.860 in the universal tone
00:04:29.320 of spiritual places
00:04:32.420 where people live and die
00:04:36.000 and are reborn
00:04:39.740 into the creation.
00:04:44.920 I offer that
00:04:46.360 to Skala Chaktanot 0.82
00:04:49.720 when I had to go out
00:04:53.520 to her relative, Raynell Morris,
00:05:01.460 the elder matriarch of the Lummi effort 0.95
00:05:05.320 to bring her home, who did 0.99
00:05:07.140 bring her home a couple weeks ago
00:05:13.020 in what to me is a magical, mythical,
00:05:19.540 mysterious correspondence of worlds.
00:05:23.520 So in that vein, I'd like to offer one other thing I think is appropriate to frame the mindset of what we'll talk about.
00:05:34.880 And it comes from one of my favorite writers, Roberto Calasso, who wrote in his book of Cadmus and Harmony.
00:05:46.720 He says this, we enter the mythical when we enter the realm of risk.
00:05:57.640 And myth is the enchantment we generate in ourselves at such moments.
00:06:03.700 It is a magical bond that tightens around us.
00:06:08.580 It is a spell the soul casts on itself.
00:06:13.940 we must enchant
00:06:17.060 ourselves
00:06:18.100 they brought her home
00:06:24.360 she passed away
00:06:26.160 suddenly in Miami
00:06:28.320 in the hands of
00:06:29.180 in the hands of those who are caring for her
00:06:32.100 and trying to heal her
00:06:33.500 sparing no effort and no cost
00:06:37.760 but after 53 years
00:06:41.140 in solitary
00:06:43.880 prison
00:06:45.300 her body gave up
00:06:48.680 she was probably within a year
00:06:52.000 of being brought back to her home
00:06:53.880 waters alive
00:06:54.720 they took her
00:06:56.400 to a place in Georgia
00:06:58.720 and before she was
00:07:02.700 cremated her
00:07:05.140 relative Raynell was with her
00:07:07.600 the whole time
00:07:08.200 and as they put her body
00:07:11.800 in the crematoria
00:07:12.980 praying else out of prayer,
00:07:19.440 put cedar boughs on her body,
00:07:22.460 and her ashes were brought back
00:07:25.640 in a private jet,
00:07:28.500 landed in Bellingham International Airport
00:07:30.560 a couple weeks ago,
00:07:34.280 was placed in a stretch white limousine
00:07:36.820 escorted by Bellingham police
00:07:38.480 to the Lummi Reservation,
00:07:39.600 was taken out into the Salish Sea
00:07:47.820 off the coast of the Lummi Reservation
00:07:50.180 in a Lummi Indian law enforcement boat
00:07:52.380 escorted by Lummi fishermen.
00:07:59.360 And as they were making their way out
00:08:01.360 into the Salish Sea, they passed by
00:08:03.540 a part of the reservation where a funeral was going on.
00:08:09.600 There have been a lot of deaths at Lummi.
00:08:12.620 The drug epidemic is intensifying.
00:08:18.480 And they brought the boat to where the people were standing on the shore.
00:08:23.360 They come out from the funeral to stand on the shore to honor and raise their hands.
00:08:27.600 Tokatak, hundreds of people with their hands raised.
00:08:32.640 as the London law enforcement
00:08:38.280 vote made
00:08:38.940 a circle
00:08:40.920 a counterclockwise
00:08:44.200 circle as they do at funerals
00:08:45.980 four times
00:08:51.020 and then they took her out into the 0.75
00:08:55.700 sailor sea escorted by the United States
00:08:57.800 Coast Guard
00:09:02.640 and they took her to a secret location where they did deep ceremony, 0.98
00:09:08.180 and only Lummi Indians were on the boat. 0.51
00:09:11.300 And they said farewell to her relative to put salmon in the water with her.
00:09:16.280 And the Coast Guard guarded the perimeter
00:09:20.000 so that no boat's wakes would disturb her ashes.
00:09:24.900 And so she's back in the Salish Sea.
00:09:28.860 And I asked myself when I heard this...
00:09:32.640 What is that?
00:09:36.660 A police escort, the United States Coast Guard, a funeral, a ceremony, cedar and salmon.
00:09:46.600 It's an orca.
00:09:49.440 No, it's not.
00:09:51.300 No, it's not. 0.99
00:09:54.440 It's a Kualaumachin. 0.97
00:09:56.280 It's a Kualaumachin.
00:09:56.800 You see, for many people, indigenous peoples of this part of the world, they're not killer whales.
00:10:07.100 I know, I know that's hard. I know it's hard.
00:10:09.060 It's hard. That's why I read that quote from Mr. Colasso.
00:10:14.320 It's risky to step outside what is convenient in how we make our world make sense.
00:10:21.440 However, in the way that we make sense of this particular moment,
00:10:25.540 Kuala Lomenshin had agency parallel and equivalent to
00:10:31.580 and almost identical with human agency.
00:10:36.460 And we fought for her.
00:10:37.780 We fought with everything we had.
00:10:39.180 We almost got her home.
00:10:41.320 But it was too much.
00:10:43.200 53 years of being in an 80-foot tank, 20 feet deep,
00:10:47.060 filled with chlorine in average of 89-degree weather
00:10:50.000 when you're at Arca from the Southern Residence in the Sailing Sea.
00:10:53.320 It's amazing she lived that long.
00:10:57.020 Yeah, she was an ambassador in solitary confinement.
00:11:02.860 She sang her song every night of her life in that tank.
00:11:11.280 So we feel heartbroken, but committed in her name, in honor of her, to fight for her relatives.
00:11:30.960 The Scaliccia, the Scaliccia, Scaliccia, Scaliccia.
00:11:36.580 So we're fighting for them now.
00:11:38.360 Cecilia does, tribes do.
00:11:39.720 We all are.
00:11:41.280 we just got back from a campaign
00:11:45.120 for three and a half weeks
00:11:46.240 dedicated
00:11:47.520 to the Snake River
00:11:49.880 and taking down the Snake River dams,
00:11:52.680 which unless they bring those dams down,
00:11:54.700 the southern residents will go extinct,
00:11:56.900 period.
00:12:01.420 Period.
00:12:04.020 We will have driven
00:12:05.420 a being
00:12:07.080 that has been here for tens
00:12:08.900 of thousands of years
00:12:10.240 to extinction.
00:12:14.500 So we're fighting for the Snake River dams to come down.
00:12:19.240 And you know what our elected officials say?
00:12:21.840 Well, you know, we have to talk about all the stakeholders.
00:12:24.280 One of your best stakeholders is the orcas, and they're going extinct.
00:12:29.760 The rest of them aren't.
00:12:30.480 And we keep talking about them.
00:12:32.180 So the tribes want the dams to come down.
00:12:36.960 You're all welcome to join us if you want.
00:12:39.660 We need your help.
00:12:42.860 We need your help.
00:12:45.760 What can I do?
00:12:47.320 There's a lot you can do.
00:12:52.520 Wow, Kurt.
00:12:54.860 Yeah, you had me in tears and in my mind reaching for some type of...
00:13:01.100 of, maybe it was reaching for answers, but really just sitting in the trouble with you.
00:13:08.760 And I am thinking of this memory, the memory that lives in the land and that lives with
00:13:17.360 these relatives that remind us that hopefully reinvigorate our memory.
00:13:21.880 Like when you're talking about Hokutai still singing her song every night, I guess there's
00:13:29.080 also something about memory and not forgetting. And I know this is hard to speak to, but I wonder
00:13:36.380 if you could just share with us a bit more about what Tokatai was experiencing at Miami Sea
00:13:44.000 Aquarium. I guess there's something inside of me that just needs to sit with the abuse she was
00:13:51.420 living through because I don't want to forget that either. I think there is a huge, hard,
00:14:02.620 heartbreaking lesson in that. And I know it's a hard thing to ask, but I do think it's important
00:14:10.580 for us listeners and especially those who didn't hear the first conversation we had of
00:14:16.020 what she was living through and yeah and honor that for her
00:14:22.640 your viewers can actually google it and
00:14:27.440 experience the painful experience of the capture in 1970 when she was
00:14:33.860 captured as a four-year-old they think um taken out of Penn Cove
00:14:42.000 the village that
00:14:44.500 mummy village that was closest to where she was
00:14:46.800 captured was the village of Scalicha 0.56
00:14:48.260 Scalicha was the
00:14:50.860 name of the village
00:14:51.480 they gave her that name
00:14:54.880 to let her know she's welcome to come home now
00:14:56.620 she is home now
00:14:59.080 but she was
00:15:01.040 taken
00:15:01.360 to Miami
00:15:04.220 imagine
00:15:06.060 you're with your family
00:15:08.220 and then you're being
00:15:11.260 carried on a litter into
00:15:13.320 a tank
00:15:13.740 with another killer whale
00:15:16.280 who would soon be dead, having committed
00:15:19.220 suicide.
00:15:20.880 Then you're alone with two 0.70
00:15:23.200 white-sided dolphins that keep lashing your sides.
00:15:26.560 And you swim
00:15:27.420 in a tank 20 feet deep,
00:15:29.520 too shallow to even dive in,
00:15:31.740 80 feet in diameter.
00:15:33.160 And you go around and around
00:15:35.100 and around in circles so you don't go mad.
00:15:37.600 And you're echolocating, so you're in
00:15:39.240 an echo chamber.
00:15:41.260 All you hear is your own voice bouncing back at you for 53 years.
00:15:50.800 And yet, and yet.
00:15:55.000 But you know, she died suddenly.
00:16:04.980 And she was seemingly doing really well.
00:16:11.260 And her handlers actually were in the process of feeding her live salmon.
00:16:21.020 And she died.
00:16:22.460 She's gone.
00:16:23.700 Gone.
00:16:26.260 And I wonder about that.
00:16:29.820 I wonder if she, I wonder about that.
00:16:34.400 There was no, she was there and then she was gone.
00:16:41.260 I don't pretend to know what that is, but I do know that, you know, when you get in this case, this close to beings of that nature, you realize something about yourself.
00:17:02.100 We are really in relation with these beings.
00:17:06.780 I'm a diver. I've been in the water with them, I can tell you.
00:17:11.260 there's a there there when you're around them.
00:17:13.960 You feel you're in the presence of a mind.
00:17:17.720 So I think to honor her,
00:17:20.240 and I will always honor her in the work that I do,
00:17:23.700 is to remember what she gave us,
00:17:26.460 how she gave it to us,
00:17:28.340 what she left with us,
00:17:31.040 and really the fact that she gave it all back
00:17:34.760 with such compassion.
00:17:37.900 It's an amazing lesson.
00:17:41.260 Transcription by CastingWords
00:18:11.260 ORGAN PLAYS
00:18:41.260 Why did they say or think she passed?
00:19:03.400 Like, what was the quote, you know, technical response to that?
00:19:09.320 Kidney failure.
00:19:11.260 hmm that's what we're told kidney failure and you know if you were being pumped with that
00:19:20.820 many medications 53 years your kidneys would fail too no one understands how she lived as long as
00:19:26.640 she did i wonder i'm assuming she knew what was going on she was about to start getting 1.00
00:19:33.340 cradle shrink. She knew what was going on.
00:19:37.880 And
00:19:38.200 she left.
00:19:45.000 I don't understand that. There's something
00:19:47.320 I don't understand there.
00:19:50.500 I think she was
00:19:51.480 tired.
00:19:53.980 I think she's really tired.
00:19:57.900 Reena Morris,
00:19:59.040 a Lummi Indian woman, matriarch elder. 1.00
00:20:01.260 but I tell you when Raynell
00:20:03.820 accompanied her spirit
00:20:04.800 Raynell said
00:20:07.520 so when I was with her
00:20:10.020 going from Miami to Georgia
00:20:12.220 I was with her
00:20:14.340 going from Georgia to Bellingham
00:20:15.520 I was with her and went some Bellingham
00:20:18.480 out on the water
00:20:19.280 I was with her when
00:20:22.020 I told her you're okay we're still with you don't worry
00:20:24.340 I was talking to her the whole way
00:20:25.880 I was with her when we put her ashes
00:20:30.360 in the water
00:20:30.920 and she said
00:20:31.300 you know what
00:20:31.780 we did this ceremony
00:20:34.520 deep ceremony
00:20:35.340 one I've never seen
00:20:36.360 deep ceremony
00:20:38.440 of relationality
00:20:39.320 they know something
00:20:42.580 and she said
00:20:45.640 she left 0.50
00:20:47.680 she left
00:20:50.060 her spirit
00:20:51.960 went into the water
00:20:53.560 and joined her family
00:20:54.540 and she was good with it
00:20:56.240 that's what I was told
00:20:59.860 and I come back to this over and over again
00:21:04.520 we cannot
00:21:08.800 give up
00:21:10.700 indigenous people know something 0.99
00:21:14.320 and among things they know
00:21:17.080 is why we must not give up
00:21:19.140 it's got nothing to do with science
00:21:21.880 nothing
00:21:24.040 it's got everything to do with correspondence
00:21:28.740 i wouldn't trade my places with anybody it is such an honor to work with humility
00:21:39.560 among people with so much honor and so much humility so much grace
00:21:45.780 so much knowledge of being with and within nature it's just simply an honor
00:21:53.660 mm-hmm i agree
00:21:59.180 and yeah there's a few questions that came up for me about the snake river dams and tokatai
00:22:07.620 as well and maybe we could go back to tokatai for a moment so kurt i wanted to
00:22:16.720 talk a bit about the controversy over tokatai's necropsy and her treatment at miami sea aquarium
00:22:24.800 and just take some time to talk through yeah what was happening to her in there
00:22:31.380 yeah i'm sure you know that she lived in the smallest tank of any sea circus in the united 1.00
00:22:38.720 States. It was the smallest. It was the shallower. But sure, tanks will be bigger, deeper. But 0.97
00:22:48.960 these beings are known to cruise 200 miles a day.
00:22:55.940 It comes down to a first principle. Unless we get to the first principles, we're just
00:23:02.080 quibbling over details that matter not at all to the basic issue. It doesn't matter how big the
00:23:07.480 tank is. These are highly sentient beings. They have agency. They have self-awareness.
00:23:16.640 They have intelligence at least as significant and as real as our own.
00:23:25.220 They just don't belong in those places. Now, she's one case in point, I would argue. And if
00:23:35.620 you look at any of these orcas in captivity, look at their dorsal fin. Look at it. It's
00:23:43.620 droopy. It's droopy because they're not healthy. They're supposed to be erect. They're droopy
00:23:51.800 because they're not healthy. They are certainly not happy. And occasionally they attack, quote
00:23:59.340 unquote their trainers quote unquote uh yeah there is no way you can have an orca in captivity
00:24:07.080 and considered in any way shape or form humane it just it's not doable whether that applies to
00:24:13.920 other species that's another open question but you know i think it comes down to
00:24:18.180 what is our relation to and responsibility with nature
00:24:22.840 what is it
00:24:26.060 is it such that we can have these
00:24:28.400 places where you can
00:24:29.660 look at animals that are clearly distressed
00:24:32.580 but it's a very 1.00
00:24:36.060 China builds 0.68
00:24:38.640 a new sea circus
00:24:40.100 every six months
00:24:41.180 brand new one
00:24:42.420 they're capturing orcas every day
00:24:46.600 in the high seas
00:24:47.320 what do we do about it
00:24:52.840 it's an outstanding question i don't know except to be aware to be aware that if someone says this
00:25:01.480 is for education it's good to educate people in this way it is simply not true there are ways to
00:25:10.620 learn about orcas without putting them in tanks we uh as a sila are trying to create a new way
00:25:20.040 of experiencing that.
00:25:21.620 We're doing a virtual reality program
00:25:23.300 in one of our locations on Friday Harbor.
00:25:25.500 So you will be able to be
00:25:26.780 an orca in the water.
00:25:30.140 You will have the orca experience
00:25:32.120 of being an orca in the water.
00:25:34.860 Or a salmon.
00:25:37.120 You'll have that experience.
00:25:40.340 And our hope is that by doing that,
00:25:42.800 we can generate
00:25:43.580 new ways of reimagining nature,
00:25:47.140 a responsibility to it,
00:25:48.420 and a relationship with it.
00:25:51.960 We need to come together again.
00:25:53.900 Find a group that shares your vision of a relationship with nature
00:25:58.980 and give them your best gift.
00:26:03.160 And that will be honoring, preserving, passing on the lesson of Tokatai.
00:26:13.420 These orca we see and we treasure so much.
00:26:16.080 They live in longhouses.
00:26:20.500 Okay, now let's step into that. 0.78
00:26:25.840 In longhouses.
00:26:27.540 You know, an ERCA scientist told me, as we were babbling to bring Tokatai home,
00:26:34.840 we only have 3% observational data of the southern resident killer whales.
00:26:40.380 3%.
00:26:41.100 97% of the time, we have no idea where they are.
00:26:44.420 And I said to him, if you only have 3%, how do you know it's 3%?
00:26:52.220 It could be much less than that.
00:26:55.740 They don't know where they are. 0.78
00:26:58.220 Lommies do. 0.99
00:26:59.340 They live in longhouses. 0.51
00:27:00.840 There's a deep trench in the Sailor Sea.
00:27:06.080 And in that deep trench, longhouses, in those longhouses, the orca will go.
00:27:10.680 and we've got to take a risk here.
00:27:16.840 Reynau took a risk.
00:27:19.380 Reynau took a risk
00:27:20.560 staying with the relative all the way through.
00:27:26.100 I can't say this about
00:27:27.680 this Tokatai 1.00
00:27:30.520 and how through her we see the whole world
00:27:35.000 in a different way.
00:27:36.420 You can see the whole world
00:27:38.360 through a different way of understanding essentially
00:27:43.680 who she is, was, and always will be.
00:27:48.380 We were there.
00:27:50.820 Talikwa, the Talikwa that carried her baby around for 17 days in 2018
00:27:56.480 touched the world with a magical correspondence
00:28:01.140 that reminds you that there's something larger than you
00:28:07.340 and that you're never alone.
00:28:08.360 at the same time, a godlike moment, you know.
00:28:12.920 That was the year we took that totem pole to Miami,
00:28:16.260 all the way across the country, doing ceremony with that totem pole
00:28:18.960 all the way across the country, that orca pole,
00:28:20.940 all the way from Bellingham to Miami, blessed by tribes,
00:28:25.740 many different places, all for her.
00:28:30.780 I want to say one thing about that.
00:28:32.860 Pardon me, but was it a bird?
00:28:36.280 Was it a plane? Were there bees? What was this event that was blessing her pole?
00:28:43.580 Down in California, we asked for a blessing from the Viejas tribe, the Kumeyas, San Diego County.
00:28:49.440 Wonderful people, extraordinary people, Kumeyas.
00:28:56.280 We said, we need a blessing to this pole. And we said, okay, bring it to the village. 0.83
00:29:00.700 We took it to the village.
00:29:02.580 And in the village, there was a tarp, and under the tarp were the elders.
00:29:06.280 In front of the tribe was the totem pole, and standing in front of the totem pole was the chairman of that tribe.
00:29:10.500 And he said, we're here for a blessing.
00:29:15.200 And he no sooner said that than we heard a plane coming.
00:29:19.420 Sounded like a plane coming right at us.
00:29:21.100 We looked up.
00:29:22.060 Tens of thousands of honeybees circling out of the sky, coming right down onto the totem pole.
00:29:31.260 Everybody saw it.
00:29:32.100 It was even filmed.
00:29:32.680 and then the elder
00:29:34.900 singing in front of me moved his wrist counterclockwise
00:29:37.120 and the bees went counterclockwise and we disappeared
00:29:39.220 we're gone
00:29:40.080 later that night
00:29:43.080 I asked the woman that was guarding
00:29:44.940 the totem pole, Kumihai veteran 1.00
00:29:46.680 I can't 0.75
00:29:49.300 sleep, what was that
00:29:51.260 I said what was what
00:29:53.020 I said what happened today, she said you wanted
00:29:55.140 the blessing
00:29:55.680 that was your blessing, what is that
00:29:58.880 what is she talking
00:30:01.280 about
00:30:01.720 Supernature
00:30:31.720 Thank you.
00:31:01.720 When we finished our event in Miami,
00:31:12.840 this moment came to mind today when I was driving.
00:31:17.080 I live in Bellingham, up by Canada.
00:31:20.640 And this morning when I was driving into town,
00:31:23.020 there was a rainbow, I mean, a huge rainbow
00:31:27.940 at 7 o'clock in the morning,
00:31:29.460 just lavishing the sky
00:31:32.120 and I thought
00:31:34.580 super nature
00:31:36.180 I'm on doing this podcast today
00:31:39.540 I need that hope
00:31:40.640 I need that promise
00:31:43.760 and I thought of the drive back from Miami
00:31:49.400 Doug James, Joel James, the carvers of that totem pole
00:31:53.940 driving in their big truck
00:31:55.880 and me and my
00:31:59.460 a company, a car, a scout car.
00:32:01.440 I always go with them, and we're in Wyoming.
00:32:04.840 Nobody on the highway but us, driving side by side, going down the highway,
00:32:10.380 and up in the sky, a dark sky at the end of the day,
00:32:15.300 a very threatening sky, on the horizon was a patch of blue sky.
00:32:23.660 Nearly a perfect square, and in that nearly perfect square,
00:32:26.340 a blue sky and a dark, darkening, threatening sky was written the word like it was written 0.70
00:32:31.920 by someone's finger, L-O-V-E.
00:32:37.220 Everybody saw it, and it did not go away.
00:32:41.400 It hung there for a long time.
00:32:45.900 We pulled over, and the James boys said,
00:32:51.140 Scully talked to Nod, who's with us.
00:32:56.340 I say these things because it's hard because, you know, I've been doing this work for decades,
00:33:04.940 and the more I see and the more I think I understand, the less I know how to say anything about it.
00:33:13.060 These correspondences that are telling us, are telling us through her life, through your life, through life,
00:33:23.620 there's something essentially divine about all of this
00:33:28.600 every bit of it
00:33:32.500 every bit of it
00:33:35.200 I'm not a religious guy
00:33:37.780 I don't have a denominational religion
00:33:39.940 but I love nature
00:33:42.660 I love nature
00:33:44.960 and I'm willing to take a risk to understand her
00:33:49.880 but I don't know that much
00:33:52.600 so I spend most of my time
00:33:56.260 with people that do
00:33:57.100 and in my case
00:34:00.060 those are native people
00:34:01.020 they see things
00:34:03.640 things show up for them
00:34:06.080 Scully Choctamot
00:34:12.500 was a member of the southern
00:34:15.900 resident killer whales
00:34:17.120 they are native to the
00:34:22.040 waters that are also the territorial
00:34:24.000 aboriginal waters of the Lummi Indian people.
00:34:26.780 They share those waters. 1.00
00:34:32.420 The southern resident killer
00:34:34.000 wills,
00:34:35.960 her family,
00:34:39.980 are on the brink of functional
00:34:41.780 extinction.
00:34:43.680 With 73 left,
00:34:47.660 they're barely hanging on.
00:34:50.180 Most of the southern residents
00:34:51.960 were captured and taken away, and the same
00:34:53.840 capture that took place when they took
00:34:55.740 Tokatai in 1970, the southern residents
00:34:57.860 never recovered.
00:35:02.760 How do these criminals
00:35:03.920 get away with this?
00:35:06.620 And I keep asking myself
00:35:08.060 that question. I mean,
00:35:09.120 what happened
00:35:12.080 to her was
00:35:13.760 criminal. 1.00
00:35:15.640 They are criminals. 0.99
00:35:17.800 Yeah, they have an amusement park. 0.99
00:35:19.640 Okay. Do other things.
00:35:21.680 to amuse yourself.
00:35:23.480 Nature is not here for our amusement. 1.00
00:35:27.460 Cicilla is an all-Indigenous organization, 1.00
00:35:30.920 except for me.
00:35:34.440 In our relations board meeting,
00:35:35.700 they were talking about how to configure
00:35:38.300 right and respectful relations with nature.
00:35:46.420 And one of our members, the Yakima,
00:35:48.760 former chairman of Yakima Nation,
00:35:51.680 He said, we are not stewards.
00:35:56.100 Get over that.
00:35:58.820 Nature is our caretaker.
00:36:03.580 We're not in the center of her world.
00:36:05.980 We're part of her world.
00:36:08.780 We're not stewards.
00:36:11.240 That hubris is what's got us in this mess to begin with.
00:36:14.660 I know what he's talking about.
00:36:15.940 right and respectful relations with nature to him means understanding nature is our caretaker
00:36:28.640 for whom and with whom we have a secret obligation and an ancient covenant and we are violating it
00:36:38.780 and you know nature's very forgiving up to a point and then she never forgets
00:36:45.340 we're at that point
00:36:48.440 I don't know what your listeners
00:36:50.720 I don't know what their lives are like
00:36:52.440 whoever's listening to this
00:36:53.920 if people listen to it
00:36:55.000 they have a life
00:36:55.640 they go on with a life
00:36:56.500 but you know
00:36:58.620 we're in trouble
00:37:01.660 I mean we
00:37:03.840 that part of creation
00:37:05.880 we are making trouble
00:37:07.520 we brought that up
00:37:10.860 in the fight for Tokata
00:37:12.900 we brought that up
00:37:15.180 to the owners of Miami's Aquarium.
00:37:21.640 They ignored us.
00:37:24.760 Completely.
00:37:26.400 They said,
00:37:27.680 she's an ambassador.
00:37:31.160 To which
00:37:32.060 we responded,
00:37:34.240 you are whoring her out for profit.
00:37:36.580 That's what you're doing.
00:37:39.000 So
00:37:39.320 the tribes want the dams to come down,
00:37:42.860 so we did this journey.
00:37:43.780 Our third journey
00:37:45.180 Let me share something, if I may. One of our board members, the Yakama gentleman, very well thought of in his own ways, very knowledge about his own ways, very fluent in his own language.
00:37:59.820 he said to us
00:38:03.380 when we were contemplating do another
00:38:05.120 journey on 2022 up the Snake River
00:38:07.060 he said before you go up the Snake River
00:38:08.500 before you go to do ceremony
00:38:10.420 before you do that event
00:38:12.020 I need to go up
00:38:14.040 and we need to
00:38:16.220 honor the spirit
00:38:19.200 of the waters
00:38:19.780 we'll do this and then you can go
00:38:23.120 on your journey so he did
00:38:24.080 with other tribal members
00:38:27.320 he went all the way
00:38:28.700 from eastern Washington to the Yellowstone
00:38:33.900 Plateau.
00:38:37.320 All the way there, where the springs
00:38:39.960 pop out of the ground that give birth to the Snake River.
00:38:45.020 And they did
00:38:45.840 ceremony at each site that represented
00:38:48.100 the baby, the young one,
00:38:51.940 the adult, and the elder. Four ceremonies.
00:38:54.960 All the way to the Pacific Ocean.
00:38:58.700 This is what I'm getting to in terms of what I, the quote I started off with.
00:39:05.900 At every single place, they spread a traditional table of food, traditional salmon, roots, berries, all of it for the waters.
00:39:20.860 And they waited.
00:39:24.020 Until the representation came to them that said the spirit of the waters is present.
00:39:28.700 Go ahead.
00:39:30.240 In the first ceremony, in the first representation,
00:39:36.460 they saw a raven standing on the back of a coyote, watching.
00:39:47.740 What is that?
00:39:50.820 Were those bees or a plane?
00:39:53.680 What do you mean longhouses in a trench?
00:39:55.460 a raven on the back of a coyote
00:40:00.220 watching
00:40:01.960 at every single place
00:40:06.840 all the way to Astoria
00:40:08.240 on the Pacific Ocean
00:40:09.300 similar kinds of appearances
00:40:11.820 were preferred by the spirit of the waters
00:40:15.180 to let the people know
00:40:16.900 it was present
00:40:18.260 you know
00:40:19.460 I'm going to bore you with one quote here
00:40:24.220 This comes from a fantastic book
00:40:29.720 by a French anthropologist
00:40:32.540 that spent many, many, many, many years
00:40:34.860 with indigenous peoples of the Amazon.
00:40:38.160 And he wrote this amazing observation
00:40:40.680 which relates to bees and totem poles.
00:40:45.760 It relates to longhouses and trances.
00:40:49.020 It relates to love in the sky.
00:40:51.540 It relates to ravens on top of coyotes.
00:40:53.700 And he said, and I quote,
00:40:57.340 In many cases, it is said that an individual of one species apprehends the members of other species in accordance with their own criteria,
00:41:11.940 so that, in normal conditions, a hunter will not realize that his animal prey sees itself
00:41:20.160 as a human being, or that it sees the hunter as a jaguar. Similarly, a jaguar
00:41:25.820 regards the blood that it drinks as manioc bear, while the monkey spider and the cacique bird
00:41:33.180 thinks it is hunting is to a man nothing but a grasshopper, and the tapers that a snake considers
00:41:41.400 as its preferred pay, are really human beings. Transubstantiation, transformation.
00:41:51.520 I think the genius, at least of the people that I've had the great honor of coming to know a
00:41:57.880 little bit in this part of the indigenous world, understand the perspective of transformations.
00:42:07.160 And you know, one reason I think they do, they've been here for a very long time.
00:42:14.380 They were here, the Lummi Indians and their relatives and the Kuala.
00:42:18.620 They were here when where I am now sitting was under three-quarters of a mile of ice.
00:42:30.560 And they were here.
00:42:32.420 And they were here when the ice went away.
00:42:34.360 They were here when the first cedar arrived 7,500 years ago.
00:42:38.280 They were here when the orca came, and the first salmon found its first stream.
00:42:42.040 They were here.
00:42:44.460 And they've seen all this transformation.
00:42:47.740 And I wonder, what is the equivalent European experience of having that kind of place-based identity
00:42:55.200 with the magical transformations, that transubstantial reality
00:43:00.460 that lets you know things are never what they seem to be.
00:43:09.520 And that's really been the essence of the battle for Tokatai.
00:43:14.160 She wasn't just an orca, a black fish or whatever.
00:43:19.400 For Skelecha, they're not orcas either. 0.97
00:43:23.040 For salmon. 0.98
00:43:25.320 For salmon.
00:43:27.440 For water.
00:43:28.440 I don't know what the answer is
00:43:32.000 but things I've seen
00:43:37.220 that I come to believe are as real
00:43:41.220 and as true as
00:43:42.500 anything I knew before
00:43:46.720 cannot be explained
00:43:49.840 by the way I make my world make sense
00:43:55.200 so you've got to take this risk
00:43:58.680 I want one more quote for you
00:44:03.980 this comes from a Lummi Indian
00:44:05.080 Lummi Indians are up right here
00:44:07.920 in Watan County
00:44:09.060 out in the San Juan Islands
00:44:10.220 this is their territory 1.00
00:44:11.160 Lummi Elder
00:44:15.820 very good friend of the president of Sicilia
00:44:18.960 said this
00:44:20.920 the Salmon people
00:44:25.200 The salmon people aren't hardly here no more.
00:44:32.280 We need to talk to them.
00:44:36.100 We need you salmon people, the life givers. 1.00
00:44:40.820 You gave up your lives so we can live. 1.00
00:44:46.280 It is important for our people about who we really are.
00:44:51.600 we sit in the lap of mother earth learning all there is to learn not all at once
00:45:01.220 but built up over lifetimes every day we need to keep learning
00:45:10.760 to never quit learning
00:45:14.140 i i'm being a bit of a devil's advocate just because i want to speak to i don't want to say
00:45:29.020 both sides because i i don't know if i even believe that but about the snake river dam so
00:45:34.660 i want to take just a moment to recognize how complicated climate change makes decisions like
00:45:42.380 this. The Oregon Public Broadcasting reports, quote, hydroelectric dam supporters said climate
00:45:48.280 change is a big reason to keep the dams in place. The four dams generate carbon-free electricity,
00:45:53.580 which could be helping slow the effect of climate change on warming river and ocean temperatures,
00:45:59.300 end quote. So what do we do with information like that? How do we speak to that when we know that
00:46:10.540 the southern residents, the orcas, will not survive without these dams coming down.
00:46:17.480 Yeah, you're right. I mean, it's the challenge of our times, isn't it? We're facing some
00:46:24.820 not-so-great choices. But to the issue of the dams and electricity, it wouldn't take much
00:46:32.920 research to push back on that statement that someone may be making, that the lower
00:46:40.480 Snake River dams generate valuable electricity. They don't. They barely generate any electricity.
00:46:47.440 They're not a key. Other dams, there are 60 dams in the Columbia River Basin,
00:46:53.980 of which Lower Snake River are four. We're talking about breaching one.
00:46:58.520 And those four dams don't generate. You can look at the research of BPA's own research
00:47:03.480 or the tribe's research. There's lots of it. All say the same thing. They're not that critical.
00:47:08.440 They're not that critical component to generate electricity.
00:47:11.380 What they are crucial for is creating lakes so products can move by barge down the Columbia River.
00:47:17.060 It's agriculture.
00:47:18.200 It's not energy.
00:47:21.480 And that is an issue.
00:47:23.640 That is an issue, but it's not an insolvable one.
00:47:27.080 There have been scenarios presented how the product can be moved downriver with barges after breaching the Lower Snake River dams.
00:47:36.480 It's all been laid out.
00:47:37.520 So let me shift the language game a little bit, because what we're doing here is we're
00:47:43.660 entering the frame of reference, which isn't the only one you can look at the issue through.
00:47:47.360 Look at the issue through the treaty rights, the basic treaty rights, promises made in
00:47:56.600 our name to their ancestors about their right to have their salmon life away.
00:48:03.720 that was a written promise
00:48:06.260 they're not
00:48:08.440 stakeholders
00:48:09.000 farmers don't have treaties
00:48:12.220 and I know people
00:48:14.440 don't like to hear it
00:48:15.420 but these
00:48:17.820 dams
00:48:19.260 are monuments
00:48:21.500 to a
00:48:23.660 stolen landscape
00:48:25.780 stolen
00:48:27.820 the tribes never agreed
00:48:30.400 to these dams they weren't even consulted
00:48:32.080 there was a treaty right at issue here, a treaty right to have salmon.
00:48:42.320 The Coeur d'Alene tribe of the Upper Columbia River Basin hasn't seen a salmon come up river in decades.
00:48:50.280 They have to truck them in.
00:48:53.200 It was a treaty right.
00:48:56.200 So, yeah, electricity is important.
00:48:59.480 Agriculture, no question.
00:49:00.760 But, hello, we signed a treaty.
00:49:06.120 One last thing.
00:49:08.220 Climate change.
00:49:11.340 A fast-moving river is cooler than a slow one.
00:49:16.680 Taking down the lower Snake River dams will cool the waters,
00:49:22.120 everything downstream be cooled,
00:49:24.240 and the salmon can get upstream to higher elevation to spawn,
00:49:28.920 where the waters are.
00:49:29.820 many hundreds of thousands of acres are now not available.
00:49:33.720 Salmon, otherwise be great habitat, will be made available
00:49:36.500 so they can go further up to spawn.
00:49:40.000 It actually has a climate change component.
00:49:42.920 What I can't figure out in looking at all this is,
00:49:46.600 what is the problem?
00:49:48.380 I mean, why?
00:49:50.020 And you know what I think it comes down to?
00:49:51.500 I know this sounds strange.
00:49:53.420 It comes down to organizational turf.
00:49:58.380 BPA is a country.
00:49:59.820 vulnerable power administration is like the corps of engineers it's a country and they don't want
00:50:07.360 to run the risk if they take down these dams they're afraid all the dams will have to come
00:50:14.000 down it's not even about the lower snick river dams it's about the precedent
00:50:19.780 we're in a tough spot we made some promises we broke them we've got to make it right
00:50:28.100 that river
00:50:30.720 is a slave 0.55
00:50:32.300 it's a slave
00:50:35.220 it needs to be free
00:50:58.100 Thank you.
00:51:28.100 Thank you for saying it like it is.
00:51:43.700 I know you can say there are two sides, and it may well be, but I've read both sides, or a lot of it.
00:51:50.340 And there are arguments on both sides, just not particularly good ones on the other side.
00:51:54.940 I mean, they're there, but you get the feeling they're not really, this isn't really the
00:52:03.000 issue.
00:52:03.480 They're not really telling you what the issue is, because all of the issues they've raised,
00:52:07.200 one last thing I'll mention to you, Washington State is 20% Catholic, roughly.
00:52:14.700 Our governor is a Catholic.
00:52:16.400 Our president's a Catholic.
00:52:17.560 Our two senators are Catholics.
00:52:18.820 Just saying. The four leading Catholic bishops of this state have stated unequivocally, the tribes are the primary dialogue partners when it comes to what happens on the snake. They're not stakeholders.
00:52:38.460 So how do we hold these organizations accountable? Like, you know, maybe the first question is, how do we hold Miami's Aquarium accountable?
00:52:48.820 And then, of course, there's the questions of how we hold the government accountable with the Snake River dams.
00:52:54.220 Yeah, good point.
00:52:55.080 Maybe we could start with Miami's Aquarium, because I think that it's so easy to sweep this under the rug as more media comes out and people get distracted by other things.
00:53:07.820 And then all of a sudden, Miami's Aquarium is just forgotten, continuing to do the horrors that they do.
00:53:14.980 So how can we keep up the fight with them particularly?
00:53:17.460 And maybe then we can go into the other organizations that are holding back the healing of the Salish Sea.
00:53:25.740 That's a very good question.
00:53:26.920 And there are groups and individuals.
00:53:29.740 The Lummi tribe is not currently one of them.
00:53:32.220 But there are groups of individuals and organizations that continue to bring attention to the fact Miami Sea Aquarium ought to just be shut down.
00:53:40.440 It's terrible.
00:53:41.440 It's awful there for anything living there.
00:53:43.260 It's not well kept.
00:53:44.040 It's not well funded.
00:53:45.320 It's basically in decline, and it's not being well cared for.
00:53:48.700 So there is that.
00:53:49.500 And some organizations, I don't know.
00:53:51.320 I know PETA is one.
00:53:52.380 There are several others that have their eyeballs set squarely on Miami's aquarium.
00:53:57.820 Our side of the fight with the tribe, we're not currently engaged in that.
00:54:01.460 We're now engaged in the bigger question of her family and the orca and the salmon.
00:54:08.840 So what I would suggest, if people want to know how they could get involved in making their voices heard,
00:54:14.880 about Miami Sea Aquarium, there are two places to go.
00:54:19.460 One is PETA, P-E-T-A, is the initials.
00:54:24.080 And the other is ORCA Network, ORCA Network.
00:54:28.980 And if one wanted to know how you can make your voice heard
00:54:31.360 all the way to Miami Sea Aquarium,
00:54:33.040 those two organizations can help you.
00:54:37.820 The dams, at the end of this month,
00:54:42.320 supposedly
00:54:44.320 a decision would be forthcoming
00:54:46.800 among the various litigants
00:54:48.780 about a solution
00:54:50.460 to breaching the lower Snake River dams
00:54:52.780 the Biden administration has been
00:54:54.560 really good on this one
00:54:55.640 they're really pushing for a good solution
00:54:58.560 and so
00:55:00.460 all of the litigants have put
00:55:01.800 the case on pause, the legal
00:55:04.540 case
00:55:04.940 hoping the parties can come to a decision
00:55:08.700 we'll know at the end of the month
00:55:10.260 what that will be, whether it will be taking the dams down now, later, or ever.
00:55:21.600 And at the end of the month, we'll know.
00:55:24.440 Earth justice, earth justice is the main legal beagle right now on that fight.
00:55:32.680 the Nez Perce tribe 0.93
00:55:36.840 is doing a big event 0.93
00:55:38.440 in November
00:55:40.320 the unity event about Orcas, Salmon
00:55:42.700 and the dams
00:55:43.380 they're doing a big event
00:55:45.640 in Everett, Washington
00:55:49.360 tribes, NGOs, everybody
00:55:51.280 if someone in this area
00:55:54.860 would like to attend that
00:55:55.840 they're certainly welcome to go to that
00:55:57.960 and see where they can get involved
00:56:00.720 You just go to the Nez Perce, N-E-Z Perce, P-E-R-C-E tribe, and you'll see reference to that event.
00:56:10.060 We're waiting right now to see what happens at the end of the month.
00:56:16.020 But most of your listeners, I'm sure, have a skill or two or three that a local tribe,
00:56:22.940 by that I mean somewhere in your state, in your local area, in your county, there is a tribe you can work with.
00:56:31.720 And if you come to know their relation with nature, it will give you inspiration, reimagination, and give you hope.
00:56:39.900 They never give up hope. Imagine what they've been through.
00:56:46.140 That's what I would suggest.
00:56:50.440 Okay. Yeah, it's good to know about those events.
00:56:54.600 oh yeah and um as we begin to conclude i i think that question of maybe we call it the dark forces
00:57:06.060 not that we'll be able to understand it or figure it out in this conversation or maybe
00:57:13.920 our entire lives but there is some type of spiritual warfare happening and it and the
00:57:21.820 extermination of indigenous people makes sense in that design. Because if you want to disconnect 1.00
00:57:29.140 from nature and relationality, then you want to get rid of any energy that has that type of power
00:57:37.140 to connect back because it is such a powerful force. So why would you want that around if the
00:57:42.800 force that you're working with is about really extermination of all living things? And where
00:57:49.980 that comes from, I don't understand. I think it's maddening that we and whoever we're talking
00:57:58.180 about, the ones who are totally encaptured or enraptured and captured by the dark forces,
00:58:06.200 that I don't understand why those people would even agree to ecocide. It doesn't rationally
00:58:14.060 make sense why would anybody think that killing the earth is a good idea for what for commodity
00:58:20.600 but why i mean we we know what it equals it equals death so it it's very much even against
00:58:29.860 the survival mechanism inside ourselves that innate survival mechanism well that's the point
00:58:37.520 Yeah. I mean, late state capitalism has a death wish. And it's imposing itself on humanity. But one last thing you were saying. It's not, I don't think, in my opinion, and it's not original with me, but it's not really a them.
00:58:58.220 it's an it
00:59:00.660 and it is this
00:59:02.860 place in history
00:59:04.900 and it moves like a lava lamp
00:59:06.540 it just reshapes itself based on
00:59:09.100 sort of the atmosphere
00:59:11.120 of history
00:59:11.740 is the relationship between power
00:59:15.220 and knowledge
00:59:16.600 and there's a nexus where they meet
00:59:19.440 and the nexus where they meet is what
00:59:23.180 enchants its era
00:59:25.160 But this particular one is a dark one, because the power and the knowledge are both utilitarian, rationalistic, and materialistic.
00:59:36.860 Any ideas on the origin of the dark forces, the ecocidal tendencies?
00:59:45.440 Well, I may offend some of your listeners.
00:59:48.640 Great. Let's hear it.
00:59:50.500 Christianity. 0.92
00:59:53.160 Bottom line. 1.00
00:59:55.160 is the dark force of the last
00:59:58.220 1700 years.
01:00:02.700 And I'm going to ask beyond that,
01:00:05.580 but where, why?
01:00:07.240 Where did it come from before that?
01:00:10.260 How was it created?
01:00:11.380 Why was it created?
01:00:12.580 Boy, that's a good question.
01:00:13.840 I mean,
01:00:14.760 I don't see it in evidence.
01:00:19.500 When I enter the world
01:00:21.240 of,
01:00:22.940 For example, the Mediterranean of 800 BC.
01:00:28.240 I don't see it there.
01:00:30.420 I see it show up sometime around Rome.
01:00:37.140 This attitude of machine and mastery, engineering and technique.
01:00:45.100 And then they spread it everywhere.
01:00:48.760 Everywhere.
01:00:49.600 think of all the great things
01:00:51.940 nuclear energy is going to bring
01:00:52.960 oh my god the internet is going to be our salvation
01:00:54.960 no
01:00:57.560 it doesn't help us
01:01:00.320 it doesn't really help the human flourishing
01:01:02.940 I don't think
01:01:05.400 cultivating human flourishing
01:01:07.020 has been a thing for 3,000 years
01:01:09.300 it just hasn't been the thing
01:01:13.660 and we're at one particular
01:01:16.260 either the end of an epic
01:01:18.940 or at the beginning of one.
01:01:21.980 We've taken this
01:01:23.080 version,
01:01:26.660 world version,
01:01:27.560 about as far as we can
01:01:28.520 without destroying ourselves.
01:01:31.600 I think what everyone
01:01:32.620 must be asking themselves is,
01:01:33.780 so I think most people know,
01:01:36.700 most people have a sense
01:01:37.680 something is terribly wrong.
01:01:39.000 They may act out
01:01:39.780 that feeling differently,
01:01:41.260 but they know it.
01:01:42.760 They know something's wrong.
01:01:45.460 But they feel powerless
01:01:46.580 to either understand it
01:01:47.740 or do anything about it.
01:01:48.940 And that's kind of where we're at right now.
01:01:54.840 Well, Kurt, thanks for diving into those deep inquiries.
01:01:59.780 I do hope your listeners, you have a great show, by the way.
01:02:03.160 It's so good you've got your show because it's so hopeful and helpful.
01:02:09.000 But I just have to implore your tribe.
01:02:17.920 Fight for us.
01:02:19.720 Fight for nature.
01:02:21.840 Stand with her.
01:02:22.960 Don't give up on her.
01:02:25.220 Do what you can do.
01:02:28.320 Now.
01:02:30.980 Yes.
01:02:31.700 Thank you for those words.
01:02:33.380 They'll stay with me.
01:02:48.940 Thank you for listening to this episode of For the Wild.
01:02:53.880 The music you heard today is by Julius Smack and Francesca Hart, courtesy of the Leaving Records record label.
01:03:03.720 For the Wild is created by Ayanna Young, Julia Jackson, Erica Ekram, Bailey Bigger, Jackson Krupp, Evan Tenenbaum, and Jose Alejandro Rivera.
01:03:18.940 Thank you.