00:04:30.320and with recent findings in a place called Mitla in Zapotec called Liuba,
00:04:39.340there is some prehistoric caves that show you know paintings handprints that date to about
00:04:47.52010 000 years ago and around there there is a canyon where they found bones of mammoths
00:04:55.980ancient horses prehistoric horses and camelids that our ancestors were probably hunting around
00:05:04.620that ancient lake uh you know who knows 20 000 25 000 years ago that's still you know being
00:05:13.540understood and measured with uh the way science works but the way we keep our records is with
00:05:22.700stories so we live in this uh it's called the central valley of oaxaca and uh this is where
00:05:31.980most of um the zapotec uh original towns were founded and um i live um right in front of the
00:05:43.720sacred peak that's called uh which means the sacred uh vulture peak and um i didn't you know
00:05:56.520just recently i came to the realization of what this means i was listening to this audiobook of
00:06:03.340talking sand and this aboriginal from australia native from australia was telling the story of
00:06:11.720how their people also kept those stories of how the ancient burials in the last ice age
00:06:18.240were done at these peaks that are uh these rocky peaks where uh they practice what's known as sky
00:06:26.720burials like they do in nepal i think where at the end of uh someone's life cycle their bodies
00:06:34.540are offered to the vultures to be taken towards the sky and uh and you know i came to that0.95
00:06:42.260realization oh this is why our mountain is called Kiyavets because they were probably practicing
00:06:50.600those sky burials back then and a lot of those ceremonies have been erased since the arrival
00:06:58.720of the Spanish and with the imposition of the new religion in our culture so right now there is a
00:07:05.600two crosses on top of this mountain but yet the mountain is honored on every May the 3rd
00:07:13.000the whole town celebrates and climbs this mountain they there is a brass band that climbs up to the
00:07:21.360top there is races to the top and they share food and music and everybody gathers there
00:07:28.780Just like in ancient times, when our people hunt and gather around these mountains, probably, you know, gathering acorns, processing acorns, and hunting for meat, deer, rabbits.
00:07:44.920So the central valley is surrounded by, in the north part, by the Sierra Madre del Norte, the northern Sierras.
00:07:54.660And in the northern Sierras, they get up to about 3,200 meters, which is about 10,000 feet above sea level.
00:08:04.940and then that mountain range receives all the ocean currents and winds from the Gulf of Mexico
00:08:15.560and then as it comes down into the valley it comes down to about 5,000 feet so you can imagine all
00:08:24.120the transition of ecosystems where at the top of this mountain range we have like nine types of
00:08:34.220pine trees, dogless furs, ferns, and lots of biodiversity.
00:08:41.080And then as we're coming down into the valley,
00:10:08.020Thank you so much for taking us through.
00:10:12.440I felt like I was floating above the land with you and totally transported to another place.
00:10:20.020And you brought up a few things in your response that I want to explore more. Of course, I want to talk about your weavings and your business, Dixar Rugs. And there's also something you mentioned. I think you were getting to maybe the topic of colonization in Mexico, and I'd love to unpack some of that continued tension.
00:10:41.240In an interview you did with Of Sedge and Salt podcast, you mentioned the ways that colonization and globalization have forced changes to the ways you interact with the land.
00:10:55.060And so much of the insidious powers of colonization manifest at intensely local levels.
00:11:01.940So yeah, I'm just interested in hearing how noticing the particular details of state control
00:11:08.160affects your relationship to the complexities of indigeneity in Mexico.
00:11:16.260You know, that's something that we feel and it's changing the way we relate to the land.
00:11:23.340This happens because the government, they push for a legal structure of land ownership
00:11:29.680and that's definitely not part of our cosmovision so the story of how our village got founded here
00:11:37.740on this particular piece of land is that this mountain that i was describing earlier the sacred
00:11:44.320mountain um the vulture peak when our ancestors arrived to this mountain the ancient spirit of
00:11:53.460of a god um appear in the form of a macau bird and among thunder and clouds uh the spirit presented
00:12:03.720itself and um gave this land for a community to take care of and to be the stewards of this land
00:12:12.160but this was an act that was you know in front of the whole community so i think that um from that
00:12:22.060cosmovision from that story the long has always the land has always been like
00:12:28.220stewarded to the community and everything that we manage or every way in which we interact with
00:12:38.500the land it's communal up to this day even though the government is pushing for um like
00:12:46.360private titles that you know entitle you to a piece of land for for your family or for your
00:12:54.480own person the way these decisions are made is still in a community we have community meetings
00:13:02.280where we decide for example which newlyweds are allowed a new plot of lands to build their own
00:13:12.120house and grow their own food because sometimes for some or another reason families they have to
00:13:19.860sell their land or they split the land and and there is every time every year there's less and
00:13:26.900less available land especially for uh for growing corn as you know the best lands have already been
00:13:35.480taken but still this is a community affair and this only you can only have access
00:13:42.320to this community by being part of it and also actually by intermarrying someone from the
00:13:51.080community by being like intimately tied to the community so that's the great advantage that we
00:13:57.300are still preserving on the other hand though because there is this push for everyone to get
00:14:04.340land titles and the government has this um or like um in the folk tradition we have this saying
00:14:15.040that says la tierra es de quien la trabaja the land belongs to those who work it and this comes
00:14:21.900from the mexican revolution when um the big haciendas uh took over a lot of indigenous lands
00:14:29.340and then the farmers the indigenous people fought back to have those lands uh to recover those lands
00:14:37.900in their hands and because they were they were the ones working the land plowing the land harvesting
00:14:43.360they they brought that the coin that term uh the land belongs to those who work it
00:14:50.300however uh this um this phrase i think it's um altering a very particular way in which we were
00:15:01.560doing agriculture which is that um we used to farm a plot of land for you know about four to
00:15:10.360eight years and then we would let that piece of land to rest for another 15 or 20 years
00:15:17.220And when we do that in this Central Valley, a lot of mesquite trees and acacias grow, like one tree is called huamuchi, and also wisaches and mesquites that have deep roots that, you know, break up the soil, fix nitrogen, create microclimates, create an incredible habitat for many other birds and species.
00:15:47.220of rabbits and other, you know, animals to nest and flourish.
00:15:53.220But now, because there is a push to be always working your land,
00:15:58.500then we stop giving that piece of land a period of rest,
00:16:02.400which is the way in which we were practicing our ancient agricultural system.
00:16:06.880So I think that's, for example, one of the dangers in which
00:16:10.220the federal government doesn't have a deep understanding
00:16:14.300of the way in which we have related to the land so that nowadays if you leave your land resting
00:16:24.180you know for more than 10 years then you in these communities you run the risk of
00:16:30.300your little plot of land going back to the community but so now everybody is you know
00:16:36.860always constantly plowing their lands and and working the lands and also that's another reason
00:16:45.040is to always occupy our land and show signs of farming so that for example when mining companies
00:16:52.620want to show up they cannot just go and grab that piece of land because it's unused so when the land
00:17:01.120it's being used for agriculture, noticeably, then we feel like we have a better chance
00:17:09.060of fighting and keeping the rights of ownership for that land.
00:17:14.860Yeah, that's really interesting on so many levels.
00:17:18.440And I know here in Alaska, the mining issues are really potent.
00:17:25.500And it seems like the economic argument is the one that's most listened to. Like if you can prove that the land is being used to make money in some other way, that's in a lot of ways the best tactic to win.
00:17:44.300and it's sad to not allow the land to rest or be even to protect the land uh you know there's
00:17:56.100it's so complicated what colonial capitalism has done and what even those of us who are land
00:18:07.180protectors have to do in order to play in this system it's really complex so I really appreciate
00:18:14.980learning more from you about that and I also would love to hear about the benza or cloud people and
00:18:23.440just hear about more you know more of your ancestry and continued presence on your ancestral
00:18:31.780land and how that shapes you and the resistance within asserting indigeneity and and even how
00:18:41.660that maybe relates to your work yeah yeah well it's also been a a personal journey a life journey
00:18:50.500to as our ancestors said to discover my true face and my true heart because the process of
00:18:58.520colonization started with the big erasure of our culture and when i grew up i didn't have these
00:19:06.100answers when i was a teenager i was very confused with the you know erocentric uh culture being so
00:19:14.740strong on radio on tv you know you didn't see indigenous faces you didn't hear indigenous
00:19:21.780stories and uh and so it was a whole journey to recover this and uh and reconnect as well even
00:19:30.500though i live in a culture in a community that is so vibrant and that has its language its traditions
00:19:37.680we grow our corn according to the same cycles that our ancestors have always followed
00:19:44.500by reading the clouds and that's why we're the cloud people because in order to live
00:19:51.220on this particular piece of land in order to grow corn the way we do it we need to pay attention
00:19:58.260to the weather systems to the clouds and to the microclimates to the very particular microclimate
00:20:05.220that corresponds to your plot of land so in our community in my village I don't have
00:20:14.160like the square kilometers but I would say that you know there is at least three or four
00:20:21.780major micro climates and everybody here has a little plot of land that's like about an
00:20:29.640hectare maybe two hectares half a hectare which is like an acre and and everybody you
00:20:38.240know by generation after generation knows exactly you know when to plant corn because a two-week
00:20:47.800time frame would make a huge difference in the corn that you harvest if you plant too early or
00:20:53.700if you plant too late so in this way we're really connected to the land and to the heavens
00:21:01.180so i often tell people you know when we plant corn it's as if there was an umbilical cord
00:21:08.540going from our bodies from our our bellies to enable that grounds us to the earth and then
00:21:17.520that's connected to the root of the corn plant and as we pray for the rains as we study the clouds
00:21:24.620our prayers you know are elevated towards the clouds and then when it rains that feeds the
00:21:32.260ground again and feeds our bodies and feeds and answer and when our prayers are answered in that
00:21:38.820way there is a full circle you know a full connection between the earthly and the spiritual
00:21:44.620world so a lot of the ancient stories a lot of the for example even the ancient calendar
00:21:53.120is based on the cycle of corn and in that uh indirect manner is how our our stories and our
00:22:04.200knowledge has survived i think anyone that plants corn i call it in this spiritual way
00:22:11.140i know in the in the west they call it dry farming but for us it's spiritual farming
00:22:18.100You know, by listening to the voices of the clouds, to the patterns of the clouds, to the needs of the land, by uniting, by weaving these two worlds together, we are connected to the tapestry of life.
00:22:37.500And I think for all the indigenous farmers in the Central Valley, this is how they relate to their ancestors, to their ancient culture.
00:23:42.080I love thinking about how your ancestors are nourishing the land and the corn through the
00:24:03.280bones in the soil and yeah the cycle of life that so many of us now in modern cultures
00:24:14.360are taken away from that cycle that's so beautiful and nourishing and I really love being reminded
00:24:23.400of that and yeah I do really want to talk about your weavings and I think it would be interesting
00:24:32.740to hear how is the land specifically fostered your continued connection to crafts like weaving and
00:24:40.060how this this practice really taps into something so connected to human life over the past thousands
00:24:49.520of years and yeah just how that influences your ideas of deep time and ancestry and gosh I have
00:24:57.420so many questions on this maybe I'll just pause and let you take it away for now yeah the
00:25:02.720Definitely. I mean, weaving has been so much part of our history here in my village that we've come to specialize in this activity.
00:25:17.340But I think before weavers, we're all farmers, and then we weave when it's too hot to be working outside or when it's raining too much.
00:25:27.040every village around here in the central valley specialize in a craft and
00:25:34.760this craft has been exacerbated and or more has become more specialized through the passing of
00:25:44.240time especially since uh the period of the aztecs when they are the mexicas because they never call
00:25:53.800themselves Aztecs when the Mexicas took over control of the ancient trade routes that connect
00:26:01.020I've heard they connect Alaska all the way to Nicaragua and for the south but anyway they imposed0.64
00:26:08.120taxes and tributes to these towns and our town was taxed with this tribute we were weaving I think
00:26:18.560like 600 loads of cotton clothes that were being sent to Tenochtitlan nowadays Mexico City
00:26:27.200other towns were you know specialized in the production of for example leather sandals or
00:26:36.100leather goods especially in the northern mountains where they have access to oaks and tannins and
00:26:42.480barks to tan other towns specializing clay and other towns specializing basketry weaving
00:26:50.400and then um every other day we meet on a main market around the central valleys to trade
00:26:58.660so that within you know a very like within the central valley we can produce most of the
00:27:05.760objects that we need to live so anyway uh our weaving or weaving uh heritage um
00:27:15.840you know goes back it's recorded uh in ancient times the older uh the oldest uh objects uh that
00:27:26.820have been found are made with agave fibers there were some sandals woven out of agave fibers
00:27:35.440and there's also of course sisal um sisal ropes and other objects other um i think they call them
00:27:44.800thump lines which are like strips of fabric that you would use to carry heavy weights um
00:27:52.040you know aided by your forehead and uh those those are other objects that have been found
00:27:58.900around here in the archaeological record and but I think you know when I've been speaking to people
00:28:06.420I've been teaching at what they call the primitive and ancestral skills gatherings and
00:28:11.680our human relation to fiber you know it's so old that I imagine that when our ancestors arrived
00:28:19.840here during the last ice age they were also gathering the wool from the woolly mammoths
00:28:25.880you know to insulate their gloves and their their boots so so just thinking about those
00:28:33.060ancient connections it's a really reassuring really nourishing when we are weaving because
00:28:40.940even to this day for example the word for cotton is really and the word for sheep is the same word
00:28:50.400is chili so even though the sheep was brought by the spanish the word that we use for that fiber
00:28:59.540is the same word that we use for cotton because they uh they are processed in the same way with
00:29:08.180the same steps and you know i i also imagine that weaving uh sheep's wool wouldn't be that
00:29:16.200much more different than probably processing woolly mammoth wool you know so that connection
00:29:22.940is is deep in time as you say and um and i've come to believe i come to realize as well that um
00:29:31.420in order to heal our relationship with with the planet with the different rhythms of the planet
00:29:39.400and the different uh what they call the life supporting systems we need to heal our relationship
00:29:46.780just like we're doing we need to heal our relationship with our food with our clothing
00:29:52.640and and that's where weaving takes a big part you know we need to look back to that uh
00:30:00.900to that skill that we've delegated to factories you know that we've um as
00:30:07.320you know developed countries uh we've um or when we buy uh industrially made fabrics you know we've
00:30:15.700delegated to other parts of the world that are also suffering you know from those uh extractive
00:30:23.000practices so so i think that's where our weaving medicine comes in and that's where
00:30:30.580also we've opened up our workshop and our family business to to share this skill with the world
00:30:38.120and to tell our story our weavings are the way i see it they're more than fabric they are the
00:30:45.620living books of our ancestors the patterns and symbols that we weave carry stories that are
00:30:52.460encoded in those uh sacred geometrical forms that we have memorized and uh they call for uh
00:31:03.420for living a life of balance for living a life that's connected with nature that calls for
00:31:11.400clotting ourselves with the fibers that we gather around that we can grow that we can die with the
00:31:19.720plants that surrounds us with plants that uh that carry medicine with plants that heal our bodies
00:31:28.320the plants that nourish our skin that's a sponge that's absorbing all these molecules that clothes
00:31:36.900ourselves with clothes that respect uh the makers with clothes that speak to us and that speak
00:31:46.080to the future with clothes that carry those stories of the past i think uh or our society
00:31:55.460right now is at a turning point where we need to listen to the voice of our ancestors we need to
00:32:02.680um reconnect to that voice and um the more i meditate on these patterns and symbols
00:32:12.140the more i've also come to know them and see them you know around the world and see how the patterns
00:32:21.220that we weave are the same that uh the the incas are weaving the same that people in nepal are
00:32:28.860weaving i've seen uh patterns that we weave that are so similar to to some mongolian uh felted uh
00:32:37.120rugs and patterns that we weave that are similar to patterns that the Ainu people are weaving
00:32:45.160and so you know it takes me back and I feel like these are like ancient stories that we carried
00:32:52.180probably you know since we left Africa who knows 60 or 70,000 years ago
00:32:59.720when scientists say that we're probably 10 000 humans exploring new ecosystems
00:33:08.560and and this really amazes me you know the way in which these patterns are so universal
00:33:15.840because sometimes people say that these patterns are created by the grid that's created with the
00:33:22.880weft and the warp that allows us to weave you know triangles and squares easily but then
00:33:29.920with other techniques like mongolians you know felting and tufting the rugs and making different
00:33:36.560like you know how we're using a very different technique to create the very same pattern
00:33:42.400or when the patterns are also painted on pottery which is really hard to to paint geometrical
00:33:51.000symbols on a round pottery tells us you know that uh there is more than coincidence to the fact that
00:33:58.280we're all creating similar patterns because at the end of the day too these patterns are built
00:34:05.220into our hands into our bodies for example of the cycle of life pattern that uh is obtained by
00:34:13.280joining the hands you know and the fingers uh almost like a mudra you know and creating a little
00:34:21.220spiral and all those patterns are built into our bodies are built into into um yeah the fractals
00:34:29.580of nature and uh and that's what we keep weaving yeah for thousands of years we keep carrying those
00:34:38.180stories yeah that's i feel redundant but i just keep wanting to point out the beauty in
00:34:47.940your responses and feel like they're definitely reminding me and hopefully the listeners too of
00:34:56.760what it is to be human again i think it's gotten so confusing and we are conditioned to feel so
00:35:07.700far from source and truth and so much of what you're saying feels like it's connecting back
00:35:16.640to something that feels real and I think it's really brave in a sense and I want to hear more
00:35:27.580from you too of how you feel but that you share your culture and share your weavings
00:35:34.760And I'm interested on how to decide when to share culture. In an interview with Tharawatt Magazine, you say, quote,
00:35:44.880It's a fine balance, no question, but sharing always came naturally to us. When we would go to the market to sell a rug, we would always invite people to see our town. We're proud of the sacred mountain. We love to show them the remnants of an ancient sacred site that preserves some of the motifs that we still weave, end quote.
00:36:04.760And, um, and then you continue saying, quote, in the past, we were more secretive about our weaving techniques. We thought about our centuries long stewardship of these techniques meant that we had to protect them, that they were ours exclusively. However, I believe that our craft must now be shared with the world because weaving is central to the human experience and not just to our culture. I wish to share that wisdom to help make this a better world one thread at a time, end quote.
00:36:33.520So I'm just really interested on how you balance claiming culture with sharing it, especially in a time when it seems that so much of culture is either forcibly commercialized or, on the other hand, made to seem antiquated or even culturally appropriated or stolen.
00:36:54.280yeah yeah i think um i see that in our community um and it's really coming from a place of fear
00:37:02.100you know that we lose our craft that um you know that our designs get you know patented by some
00:37:10.940other company because it has happened you know it has and and it's it's happened like there is
00:37:17.660ikea rugs that look exactly like like or designs or like you know south american inca designs or
00:37:25.560you know navajo hopi dinette designs and you know they're just blatantly weaving socks and rugs and
00:37:33.700other goods that are industrially produced with those ancient symbols and stories and yet no
00:37:41.320no credit or let alone any retribution is given to any of our cultures or societies so yeah you
00:37:53.220know people people are afraid of that but I think on the other hand too you know if we don't carry
00:37:59.740on this this message if we don't share this medicine if we don't let people have the experience
00:38:08.420to to gather things from the wild and to transform them with their hands and their heart
00:38:15.060into sacred objects you know i think we people won't have that opportunity to experience that
00:38:25.660because um i think you know i think that's the only form of like slow living or that's that's
00:38:35.180the purest form of uh like you know sustainable living because imagine i imagine our grandmothers
00:38:43.520you know they they spent like close to a year to make a we peel you know which is a the traditional
00:38:51.200dress that they were they would weave it on the backstrap loom and that act of weaving is more of
00:38:58.620ritual rather than an activity or let alone a production method weaving was done by women1.00
00:39:07.540in a ritual way when they would sit on the ground and tie one end of the loom to their1.00
00:39:14.860womb you know to their waist and then the other end of the loom is tied to a tree that represents
00:39:24.060It's the cosmic tree of creation where all the souls of the people are living before reincarnating into this reality.
00:39:34.200So, in fact, in the very act of weaving, women are bringing together heaven and earth on their tapestry, on the tapestry of life with the materials that they've gathered on the earth.
00:39:48.860and so when you weave something like that you know when you spend a year weaving a piece of
00:39:54.940garment that will last you a lifetime that you can inherit to your daughters and granddaughters
00:39:59.920then those objects you know become sacred they become magical they have power they have voice
00:40:09.220and uh and i think um that's that's where we should steer our societies towards
00:40:17.160uh sometimes i see a lot of greenwashing in the fashion industry you know and uh i think in order
00:40:25.480to um for the world you know we're like seven billion people on this earth and in order to
00:40:31.920clothe everyone in order to provide for everyone we need to um to empower ourselves again and to
00:40:42.080to connect you know with those ancient skills to connect with our environment
00:40:46.800and to keep sharing these stories so that this becomes the new story the new um the new story
00:40:55.940that we choose to believe that clothes should be more sacred should be produced in this way
00:41:02.800instead of you know the the cheap five dollar shirt that's available everywhere and that you
00:41:09.480could throw away you know in a few months
00:41:25.940I've bathed in the yarrow and the rose
00:41:31.320Remember it's not just babies that grow
00:41:35.320Though they might hold the miracle first breath
00:41:39.880There's not the only beginning you'll know
00:41:44.320And trickster we slip into the old ways
00:42:03.820Yeah, the fast fashion is not only spiritually bankrupting us
00:42:18.820and taking us away from a deep connection to source,
00:42:23.740But it's obviously ecologically horrendous to the earth, let alone all of the human rights violations and slavery that it encompasses.
00:42:37.360It's, yeah, the fashion industry time and time again is just, gosh, it's really insidious and destructive.
00:42:45.060And the more the more I've learned about it, I guess I shouldn't be shocked at this point.
00:42:50.460But when you hear the numbers of how much damage it's doing to people and places, it's really it's hard to take in.
00:42:58.240And yet in so many places, that's what's being offered because culture has been to for so many people, they've been removed from their cultures.
00:43:09.100And so I think what you're sharing revitalizes us to remember again, especially for those of us who've lost our way. Remember again that there was a time where we all were connected to our clothes and they were ceremonial and they meant something and they weren't just something to buy and throw away and end up in a landfill somewhere.
00:43:37.040So, yeah, I appreciate you, you speaking to that and reminding us of that power. And I think I, I think it was Martine Prechtel or some, somebody I interviewed at the very beginning of the podcast.
00:43:51.400And I remember them talking about dressing for the divine.
00:43:56.300And that's something that always stuck with me that when I get dressed in the morning, of course, you know, sometimes functionality matters, especially when you're going out into some weather or going to be doing something rough.
00:44:12.220But that it's an expression, it can be an expression to connecting with the divine, connecting with the land, connecting to what we love. And I really connected with that and it just opened up a whole other realm for me.
00:44:27.280But gosh, I do want to go back a bit and back to the thread of how to decide to share your culture, but also how rural places can support themselves without having to extract.
00:44:42.300And this is something I see so much here in Alaska, down in a lot of rural communities where there's so much pressure on economic development, economic growth.
00:44:56.080And so that in a lot of ways is why these big multinational corporations with their fracking or mining or fossil fuel extraction, I think why they build trust in small communities sometimes because when folks are desperate to make money and then they're being told by this big company that they're going to be able to have a, you know, sustainable or long term financial or economic.
00:45:26.080growth. It's something that people cling to. And so I'm just really fascinated with this for so
00:45:32.340many reasons. And again, in the first podcast interview you did with of Sedge and Salt,
00:45:37.760you discuss the varying effects of tourism in your hometown. And I'd be interested in hearing
00:45:43.420more about the various challenges that come from having to present an image of culture and life
00:45:49.300to outsiders and just also maybe detailing the challenges and benefits of tourism because
00:45:57.800i know in the rural communities i've been in even though it seems like tourism would be better than
00:46:04.200mining which i think in in certain ways it is it can also be its own form of extraction both
00:46:10.300culturally ecologically also just people coming in to buy up land speculate speculative investors
00:46:17.400so yeah just i'd love to hear your take on that yes you know yeah tourism and mining i mean they
00:46:24.940have the same goal which is to create capital to you know increase gains and uh it's it is a
00:46:35.260dangerous uh uh window you know and in the way we've opened maybe 60 years ago when my dad was
00:46:45.300you know a young a young child everybody here kind of lived on the same economic level you know
00:46:53.140everybody had adobe homes everybody was planting corn just living a really um egalitarian life
00:47:00.280you know we were we were like doing the same and then
00:47:05.760with uh with tourism opening up uh and arriving into our town when they built the
00:47:14.700airport and highway and when more and more people started to come into our town
00:47:19.640they got really interested in our rugs as a craft that they could import and sell in the u.s
00:47:27.440especially because the rugs are easy to transport and they're used to decorate homes and that
00:47:34.000but you know within like the last 50 years you know there is now a noticeable degree of
00:47:42.820economic difference between families so families that happen maybe happen to have
00:47:50.900the early connections with buyers or families that happen to have land at the entrance of our village
00:47:59.080or or in the center of our town you know they've benefited more from tourism than others on the
00:48:07.700on the outskirts of town so so yeah just i've seen maybe in my generation as i grew up you know
00:48:16.040those inequalities started to widen and widen and now i see them as real and that's that's just like
00:48:24.560the economic game that we've opened up to um i read in history books you know how um the early
00:48:33.960friars to write about our towns or villages they were surprised that our ancestors or
00:48:41.240our elders they they didn't see the value of money you know especially in the early days
00:48:48.760the joke is that why would europeans take these beautiful uh sculptures made out of gold and
00:48:56.020melt them into ugly lingots of metal we were answering like why why would you store you know
00:49:03.260all this silver and gold uh in fact uh the feather dance the that we perform to pray for the rain
00:49:11.200they use coins more of a decoratory element on their chest instead of using it for trade you
00:49:19.280know it's used like as a as an element of decoration in our regalia and people didn't
00:49:28.740used to use didn't need to use money um when my father and my grandpa they built their house
00:49:36.480they were still using tekyo which is um or sorry um it's actually gelagetza
00:49:43.400um which we say in zapotec calguez which is um kind of like a structured formal um
00:49:54.520way of helping each other today for me tomorrow for you so when they build their house you know
00:50:02.800they listed a few neighbors and friends to help them out build the house put the roof and when
00:50:09.940their turn was to build their homes you were you're obliged societally you know with this
00:50:16.040societal structure of the galagetza you're obliged to pay back in time and effort
00:50:23.760for what you have received so people didn't actually need to use money uh for a long time
00:50:32.080and uh i don't know maybe started in the 40s when um the economic pressures started to force us to
00:50:43.840to get into this economic system and probably it had to do with the droughts that we we uh we do
00:50:51.160suffer in this valley from time to time there's different cycles of droughts and uh yeah when
00:50:58.940people are hungry then you know it's time to to use money and um people started to emigrate to
00:51:07.100the u.s and to work in the fields there and uh to accumulate capital and then when they were they
00:51:14.020would come back to our village they would have uh just more money to spend to build their houses
00:51:19.420to buy the necessities of life and so but now recently um i mean in my generation
00:51:27.440uh we are think um i think we're in this economic system fully in and uh and we are trying to keep
00:51:37.180it balanced you know i think that um the money that comes into our village from tourism
00:51:43.700it it goes back to the community it goes back in in a way that strengthens our identity
00:51:52.880people mostly they do spend money on you know on having the comforts of life because at the end of
00:52:00.360the day we do want to you know also enjoy in the comforts of modern life you know have hot water
00:52:08.200and have have a truck to to do your farm chores and and have a tv or have you know have have
00:52:15.800the comforts of life so people are looking towards that but not necessarily you know
00:52:23.420we're not in a race to become like the richest rug seller of the richest you know rug dealer in town
00:52:30.660i mean some people might but i don't think that's the spirit of our community
00:52:35.820what's happening with all the income that we get from our rugs we have more you know bigger
00:52:42.620weddings you know more like more brass bands we have like bigger festivals
00:52:48.980uh you know we have bigger parades or every uh family gathering you know involves more and more
00:52:59.340people and the day of the death you know it's even bigger it's celebrated in a you know with
00:53:08.180with more um with more music with more um with more food and so i think uh at the end of the day
00:53:17.640uh what we value you know it's it's the well-being of our families of our community
00:53:25.180and of our own health so so it is a dangerous game for sure because uh that's what capitalism
00:53:35.740does and it corrupts people and it's very easy to get greedy but we have some checks in place
00:53:43.540for example in our um local uh traditions and customs to elect um the mayor or to elect
00:53:54.980the we don't have them anymore but they're called mayordomos which is like
00:54:02.840a person that pays for them for the like the patronage of the festivities of the town of
00:54:13.120the village of the saint of the village so usually when they see somebody making lots of money
00:54:18.640they'll name them mayordomo so they have to spend a lot of money to pay for the village party and
00:54:25.100festivities and in that way you know it's like a way of keeping a balance between uh people that
00:54:33.140are amassing more money however that that has kind of worked a little bit against their favor
00:54:40.480because by becoming a mayordomo you gain more social status and then by gaining more social
00:54:48.200status you are more eligible to be a member of the town council and unfortunately well corruption
00:54:59.640was very prevalent in mexico i think up until this presidency where at least in the discourse
00:55:08.040we have had a strong discourse against corruption so much so that uh for this local um town council
00:55:17.640that just finished governing our village we had a major fight to kick them out because of some
00:55:26.840corruption practices that they fell into and the whole village embarked in a legal battle
00:55:34.820and even we had to close the freeway for three days to have our rights recognized by the
00:55:41.560state authorities uh because we as a community decided to kick out uh the corrupt uh council
00:55:49.740and um and uh and put a new uh new uh major in so so yeah i mean we we're living this you know
00:56:02.320we're living it in our community and we're trying to to keep it uh balanced to keep it uh you know
00:56:10.420pure um because money is at the end of the day it's just um a tool you know our ancestors use
00:56:20.760uh cacao seeds that's a type of cacao seeds to trade because um they didn't want people to store
00:56:29.000you know those coins they wanted they wanted them to to share them they wanted that to circulate
00:56:37.480and um and for us markets are sacred you know markets are the place where we gather as a
00:56:46.960community where we gather with other communities to meet each other to trade our goods to trade
00:56:53.640to trade the blessings of our lands the the magic that we've created with our hands
00:57:00.860and it's great to meet people you know in the markets and that's kind of how how i grew up
00:57:08.760and how my mother grew up too she came from a family of butchers and they were always at the
00:57:15.820markets doing doing their selling meats and that so markets are so sacred that the word for
00:57:25.580for market is here and um the word for the Pleiades is the ladies of the market
00:57:34.380and um the name of our village uh I come to believe you know it's related to that
00:57:42.180in Zapotec our village is called which is like um the day of the market or the day
00:57:50.780of the Pleiades because also um the sacred peak the sacred mountain that I mentioned before
00:57:59.440it aligns with the Pleiades around the the new year's you know our ancient calendar that falls
00:58:05.900around the 19th or 20th of November so at the end of the day you know um I think what we need to do
00:58:15.500is to bring back sacredness to the markets to the things that we do to our crafts to our lives
00:58:24.040to our bodies gosh samuel i could stay with you on this call so much longer and
00:58:33.960and i could speak for four hours okay so maybe we'll have to have a follow-up then because
00:58:39.300there's a lot more to get into here but thank you so much for your time and your storytelling and
00:58:46.920for transporting us definitely transporting me to another place and to a type of connection to
00:58:57.040deep time and human nature it's felt really good to talk to you thank you so much for this
00:59:02.860opportunity ayana thank you so much and uh and yeah and this is why we open up so that we can
00:59:09.040inspire people you know to connect with their own roots with their own communities with their
00:59:14.360own environment and we all inspire each other you know also by uh welcoming so many guests from
00:59:22.240different parts of the world i've seen my parents too you know being exposed to other cultures and
00:59:28.800to to be curious about other people about other languages about other places so so yeah I think
00:59:36.980that's the beauty of connection thank you for listening to for the wild podcast the music you
00:59:47.260heard today was by marie sue for the wild is created by ayana young erica ekram francesca