00:00:24.940Hi, Coven. The interview you're about to hear explores the story of a 60s Scoop survivor, Elaine Kicknessway, who took her pain and, with her friend Roxy Cardinal, transformed it into the 60s Scoop Network, a safe place for herself and other survivors to share stories and heal together.
00:00:48.480it's a very small organization so if you're looking to make a really huge impact with your
00:00:58.020reparation donation this year please consider supporting the 60 scoop network trust me every
00:01:06.320dollar that goes to elaine and roxy's work will be noticed appreciated and used to help people
00:01:13.700who have suffered the violence of colonialism firsthand.
00:13:34.120segregation, nutritional deprivity. And some of that started in residential schools,
00:13:43.000some of that started in the forced relocation some of that started in the reserve or past system
00:13:49.000and then there was an introduction called child welfare so if you're going along in these different
00:13:55.460eras of times of childhood child welfare has been involved in our in our community since the 1950s
00:14:05.620And back then, they were called the policy babies. It was just the beginning when child welfare was becoming more adapt to a specific nation within the Canadian country or the state, because it's all run by the state and the provinces and then the regions.
00:14:27.480But when you're explaining 60s scoop, it's like this whole thing of like the front end loader scooping these kids, like purposefully scooping these kids out of their territories and away from their family, away from language, away from what they knew as safety.
00:14:51.260and they always have this concept oh it only happened when they were babies but it didn't
00:14:57.560it happened when we were two four seven ten twelve right and and back then this mass apprehension
00:15:08.800it was legally allowed and so I was adopted and and in the foster care system through the
00:15:25.640there we're 2026 a lot of it is if you didn't know we're all at this level of but now you know
00:15:33.440you know a little bit so google do some of your own homework so it doesn't always extract from us
00:15:39.540to do the work for you so when we're when we're talking about the AIM program that I was under
00:15:46.580But they were everywhere. There was like these different child apprehension, adoption and agencies and legal and all these different places of social workers.
00:16:00.500And usually the social workers were white social workers or non-Indigenous, not involved, to involve the systematic assumptions that Indigenous families were somehow not fit.
00:16:27.060but they're not talking about the impoverishment they're not talking about the the housing
00:16:32.940situation they're not talking about the forced relocation or the lack of nutrition
00:16:37.920or the past system that would allow people to go get different jobs off reserve they're not
00:16:45.680talking about that right they're talking about this oh they're they're they're single parents
00:16:51.740there's something wrong and and um they're indigenous they're they're at risk these kids
00:16:58.440are like this savior complex so that that narration on the outside are like we have to
00:17:04.620save these kids and you're not going to communities by saying could you know if the if the family is
00:17:14.540struggling for whatever reason is there community support there was none of that there was no family
00:17:20.160support workers if the parents spoke their language like my mom Cree there was no family
00:17:29.040support or court support or a narration of do you know what you're signing so there was papers in1.00
00:17:37.800front of you sign here so there was a lot of I would say shifty shifty and knowing so they would
00:17:48.760involved the the authorities usually the rcmp or the local police so if the this concept of this
00:17:56.720unfit parent with children and they would go in and they would literally pick the children up
00:18:05.400and that's what i remember picking us up on the side of a dirt road why we're on the dirt road
00:18:11.100i don't know maybe we're playing outside i don't really i you know um i was i was the sibling i
00:18:17.900was two and a half and I had siblings watching me you know my my oldest sibling is 12 years older
00:18:24.320than me so it's not like we were neglected but in Canada's terms we were neglected but they're not
00:18:32.520talking about the impoverishment and impoverishment means like nobody wants to be purposely viewed as
00:18:41.040poor but the impoverishment that is placed in front of you by saying you have lack of food you
00:18:49.500have lack of resources lack of housing lack of funding lack of health care but you're not talking
00:18:56.840about the funding or the impoverishment that goes to that towards that so this societal norm of
00:19:05.160thinking there's something wrong and we have to save the savior complex which you know still kind
00:19:13.960of gets narrated oh you're just a whole bunch of kids and you're all alone you were abandoned
00:19:19.560like I still hear that and I'm just like there's certain reasons why today as the adult I am
00:19:24.880I have boundaries with certain peoples and sometimes it's just like it's 2026 you got
00:19:31.860to catch up and really find out the bigger truth because you know you're going to miss a lot and
00:19:38.160when you're talking about oppressive practices you're going to miss a lot and you're not even
00:19:43.460calling out your own bias you're not even calling out your own internal racism that back in the 60s
00:19:51.620or 70s was termed okay and even back then it wasn't okay it's 2026 you got to catch up now
00:19:59.660And if we're speaking and we're telling you what our experiences was, you cannot come back and say, oh, that didn't happen.
00:20:08.920Well, it did because you have an abundance of survivors of different eras, Indian residential school, day school, tuberculosis, forced relocation, ones that either gave up their status or lost their status.
00:20:27.380and the the racism that accompanied that to the 60s scoop to the millennium scoop
00:20:34.860like that's where residential school was they say for from uh prior to uh confederation in 1867
00:20:45.640there was residential schools from back then so they talk about you know the residential school
00:20:51.220system being in in the in the territories for like over 125 years child welfare started in 1951s
00:21:00.280and we're in 2026 we're almost at 75 years now that child welfare has been impacting so are we
00:21:07.940going to be the equivalent of all those children in care being higher than the residential school
00:21:14.720era like are we going to like succeed of children in care and they're still apprehending their kids
00:21:22.760too that attitude of they're single they're alone they're neglectful like that whole narration as
00:21:30.760opposed to now at least we have more community care we have more resource we have more court
00:21:36.140support we have more knowledge but there's still these systems in place that still follow the
00:21:42.980narration of mass apprehension and social workers continuing to remove our children with little
00:21:53.220justification. You know, it's really important that these systematic assumptions
00:21:58.060really undo that, you know, if you're Indigenous, you're unfit. It's really important.1.00
00:22:06.240so when I'm when I'm explaining it I I always say you know I've said it so many times
00:22:15.580and I always like I don't want to get cynical I don't want to get sarcastic
00:22:20.360um but I also want you to be informed so that you are you're also taking the lead too
00:22:28.860because you can't just say oh now I now I know check mark and I never have to ask about it ever
00:22:36.040again no it actually needs to come up because we were raised in the city we might have been
00:22:41.980going to your school we might have gone to your hospital we might have gone to your shopping mall
00:22:48.000because we were raised in the city so it's really important that you know that we're
00:22:54.360a part of your community and then you have the narration of why does my friend whose
00:23:01.500um uh european descent have an indigenous sibling like why aren't why aren't you asking that
00:23:11.360like how did that get to be like why is there an acceptance of well of course that
00:23:16.700non-indigenous family is raising that like why are we accepting that narration
00:23:21.700that's the narration that doesn't really come up so like when i was going to high school
00:23:28.940everybody knew that my sibling was white and i was going to a white high school and there was only
00:23:38.700maybe five or six of us that were indigenous or inuit and then the rest of people of color
00:23:47.700there was about a third so you know we see the the narration of of the prominent
00:24:22.320You can look to people like yourself without actually putting that labor on you because you have a website, you have an Instagram, you have all of these resources that people can go and seek out without putting any additional labor on you. And that's just you. There are millions of other Indigenous authors, artists, creators, speakers who are also doing this work.
00:24:47.620yeah we do a 60 scoop trauma-informed training like you want to work with 60 scoop survivors
00:24:53.480let's go right and and and it's called rising together 60 scoop trauma-informed training
00:24:59.540and it's on our web page under the 60 scoop network you know and it's talking about you
00:25:06.040know what to expect how trauma trauma affects the nervous system how to identify examine your own
00:25:12.040bias and approach your work tools to challenge community building vicarious trauma and importance
00:25:20.460of self-care and how to create safer and inclusive spaces and it's working with all workers anywhere
00:25:29.120that are working with survivors but specifically identifying are you working with 60 scoop
00:25:37.680survivors because if you are how are you doing tell us more about the 60s scoop network i mean
00:25:48.520let me say listeners this interview elaine has very graciously agreed to sit down with me in
00:25:54.280part because this conversation is part of our missing witches annual reparations fundraiser
00:26:00.060and a great place to put your reparation is the 60s Scoop Network.
00:26:20.780Well, we're a small group of survivors,
00:26:25.040specifically 60s Scoop survivors from child welfare.
00:26:28.100We're Indigenous, and we are dedicated to reconnecting or aligning within culture, ceremony, healing, and building community with other survivors.
00:26:39.660Myself and Roxy Cardinal, that previously went by Colleen Cardinal, but now is name changed and goes by Roxy.
00:26:49.820and we were sitting around the table with a late friend uh former former uh named uh leslie ba
00:26:59.920and another friend beverly and the four of us met for coffee and there was a a report that came out
00:27:08.340from manitoba through eric robinson uh the mp and he was doing a round table and that was the first
00:27:15.280time people started talking about the 60 scoop in about 2013 14 and they were doing a round table
00:27:22.320and i was just like oh my goodness like what is this like how did he choose like how come like
00:27:27.780we're not being told you know and that that place of feeling real disconnect and and uh people you
00:27:34.720know we were all kind of like comforting each other you know because survivors comfort each
00:27:41.440other when we get triggered and it was really beautiful and then then we just kind of like well
00:27:47.160let's do a gathering of our own and so we did we did the first gathering of our own in 2014 and
00:27:54.160I'd never done anything like that and thank goodness Roxy knew and Leslie and and Beverly
00:28:02.160knew different parts of organization stuff and we're very grassroots like we did karaoke we did0.98
00:28:10.400like silent auctions and we had a lot of help from the non-indigenous um supports and and uh
00:28:16.780unions to say you want to do it sure let's let's see how you can do it and uh we had it over there
00:28:23.380in the ottawa region in the small community called vanier we had a little sacred fire we did talking
00:28:30.260circles we just we said if you can make it here because we didn't have a lot of funding uh we'll
00:28:36.220provide some food we'll provide some transportation we'll provide each other as survivors and it was
00:28:43.860a two-day gathering and it went really well and then you never think ahead completely because
00:28:52.820you're so focused on getting the task at hand done and as the survivors and we were you know
00:28:59.900closing it up and finishing up and we had a giveaway and there's music and drumming and
00:29:06.020people were like okay see you next year and we were like what next year
00:29:11.920and uh roxy's like yeah okay let's do it next year but let's do it on the land next year
00:29:20.200you know that was the bigger thing right like how do we get back to the land that we were apprehended
00:29:27.400from how do we get back to the bush or the waters or the the you know not so city you know and and
00:29:36.260so we did we did a a healing camp you know and and i think that's the bigger conversation where
00:29:42.940these healing camps are coming forward but they're making them specific to survivor-led
00:29:48.040and so we've had a few healing camps since and again specifically for survivors of the 60 scoop
00:29:55.700or family members or um the children the children that were raised by the survivors
00:30:02.020and um the last one uh that we had was uh one for mapping like where did we go so we've done
00:30:10.680if you go to youtube under our youtube site we have the um we have narration of 60 scoop
00:30:17.900survivors uh talking about their their their um what do they call that the their migration story
00:30:25.380like from when they were little to adopted to fostered to adopted or brought back and adopted
00:30:32.180again some were taken to the states some were taken to england somewhere like for myself i was
00:30:37.220raised in a family and for a short time i was raised in africa you know like there's all these
00:30:42.200different like how did we get all the way over here when we're originally from a very small
00:30:47.620community and then if you go to our page um we have one called mapping the 60 scoop dysphoria
00:30:55.580so you can see where survivors have gone um and on our web page we also talk about our
00:31:02.940which is speaking from our heart podcast so we have all these different um we're growing it up
00:31:10.340too you know we're doing new podcasts we're doing new options legal options but we started off very
00:31:20.820small and we started off thinking oh okay well it'll just be just gatherings just connect you
00:31:30.980know because at that time I believe there had only been one gathering in Canada and that had
00:31:37.860been a few years before but you know what happens is this perception of um well we talked about the
00:31:47.020indian residential school so we don't have to talk about anything else but what you're missing is
00:31:54.020the grandchildren and their children what happened to their children what happened to their
00:32:01.880grandchildren what happened to their great-grandchildren and that narration of how were you affected
00:32:08.560and people seem seem to go well we talked about residential school we don't need to talk about
00:32:16.040anything else and that's the part that's being missed because there seems to be this
00:32:22.400beautiful abundance of our survivors from Indian residential school they had their time and their
00:32:30.780voice and and and it was narrated and and uh the truth and reconciliation commission came out of it
00:32:37.580and there was conversations about our missing and murdered in there and and their grandchildren and
00:32:43.620the loss right and we get it that was heavy but our part is still heavy too so it needs it's it's
00:32:54.100rightful place to to be spoken of it can't be just swept away because you spoke about that era
00:33:01.720and you don't need to speak about anything more so there seems to be this uh concept of um
00:33:08.380the aftercare of loss you know like what about when when when does does the voice of the 60s scoop
00:33:17.320um have its time and there was settlement too there was a settlement that came through in 19
00:33:26.480when was that 20 like 2019 2018 it started and then it went through during covid
00:33:37.040which you know quietly got like there was other things that were happening during covid
00:33:42.620when the world shut down but they started doing the settlement payout there seems to be this like
00:33:48.140well we paid you we don't ever have to talk about it ever again but there's still needed conversation
00:33:56.400so um it's it's uh it's it's always this where do you get the funding for healing
00:34:06.920where do you get the funding that's self-sustaining that isn't specifically just for you
00:34:16.240like how do you get the ones from overseas how do we find the ones that have been buried
00:34:21.980that had their name changed and we don't know their names now because their names have been
00:34:27.460Englished through their adoption records and how do we unseal the adoption records how do we unseal
00:34:35.200the foster care system because our generation it was a lot of retraction and how do we out
00:34:43.700the ongoing um healing the unique healing that is specifically for survivor specific
00:34:54.860of this generation you know because it's if you're trying to explain everything
00:35:01.860to a therapist or a psychotherapist or whoever or even ceremony conductors that know just
00:35:09.640their experience has just been working with Indian residential school survivors but they did talk
00:35:15.320about us on reserve they were like oh those children that left or oh that parent that left
00:35:20.620and that shame that child welfare still has in our territories and communities that shame of oh we
00:35:27.360don't talk about it you know it'll bring up their stuff you're right but we're adults now we're
00:35:33.000we're parents we're grandparents we're great-grandparents and we're like you know what
00:35:38.460I'll bring it up now and then when survivors we all bring it up we're like oh okay other people
00:35:48.120get what I went through or you know maybe I heard something that encourages me to speak up
00:35:54.520because they're there you know and that's the the joy of being validated you know the validation
00:36:03.540of um i wasn't the only one i'm not the only one you know and when survivors come together there's
00:36:10.620a there's a an empowerment and you're right we all come with our stuff and sometimes we might
00:36:17.340you know have a kink or two which happens and you know um we don't mean to cause any harm but
00:36:27.560that's clarity and clarifying and understanding you know like some people are in culture some
00:36:33.040people aren't some people are in business some people are in financing some people it's hard for
00:36:38.480their uh recognition that you're you're indigenous like i'm cree like i'm all cree i'm you know and
00:36:45.580some some have gone home some are still getting the strength to go home because of that forced
00:36:53.400isolation when we were being raised by non-indigenous community non-indigenous home
00:36:59.440loss of language this attitude or this atmosphere of you weren't wanted you were neglected there
00:37:09.380was something wrong with your parent that narration there was something wrong so you
00:37:14.600wouldn't want to go back there you know and that narration of good indian bad indian you're one of
00:37:20.180the good ones because you were raised here and it's just like you know what i want to be raised
00:37:26.500there too so there's this longing this grief this unresolved grief or you don't even know what
00:37:33.680you're grieving sometimes and so it's just even the reassurance of validation it's okay to not
00:37:40.420know what you're grieving but you're you're grieving something and it's all inside and I
00:37:46.380believe you I'm so grateful that you have this bravery and capacity to do this work I'm so happy
00:37:53.380that you're podcasting because I remember last year you had told me that this was a goal to start
00:38:00.700doing this and for you to be able to spread your voice farther than Ottawa farther than Canada and
00:38:07.460reach those ears that really need to hear you and you you met and you've brought it up several
00:38:13.460different ways and it's something I really wanted to talk to you about the loss of name
00:38:16.600loss of language um you are Cree girl on Instagram everybody go follow Elaine at Cree girl on
00:38:23.300Instagram but something I've noticed you've been doing a lot of is this like re-rematriation like
00:38:29.100this reclaiming of what I believe is your mother's language so I guess my question is twofold like
00:38:37.120um why is language important and how does language fit into the creation or the destruction
00:38:45.220the erasure the extraction of culture itself well I'm originally a Cree speaker
00:38:53.060my first language is Cree everything I heard from womb to
00:38:59.820baby to toddler it was all enmeshed in Cree
00:39:06.540and I know there was probably some English in there but I was fully Cree to then go to homes
00:39:17.720I went to five homes to be Englished within those five homes to get to the adopted home
00:41:57.600And I'm still working on how to sing my language back to me.
00:42:00.760And I'm constantly trying to sing songs and get the dialect properly,
00:42:08.680make sure that I know the translation.
00:42:13.920I speak to other elders in other territories that are,
00:42:18.480and it's just like, you know, sing it to me, you know,
00:42:21.620sing it so that I can listen to it over and over.
00:42:24.220And I think that's that place of inherent right memory, inherent right memory related to, it's our inherent right to know our language, know our song, know our prayer, know our kinship, know the language that loved you.
00:42:49.240because it didn't it didn't always um it wasn't always um said in english but when we say it in
00:43:00.540our language it's very um home like i'm home like it's like you know you get the proper tone
00:43:09.360so when when like when my older sister speaks to me or a relative speaks to me and they'll say
00:43:17.340something I was just like oh that just feels like home like my niece my niece will sometimes say to
00:43:23.300me um I got you auntie and I'm like I didn't know I needed to hear that thank you I did that
00:43:28.980reassurance so hold on I'm just gonna just gonna tell my husband be quiet just a minute
00:43:35.140okay thank you of course I just kicked him to the kitchen oh well to the curb give him my regards
00:43:43.900later but yeah you stay in the kitchen for now um coming home in the same way that that
00:43:50.580that hug from that woman felt like home the words can feel like home touch can feel like home
00:43:56.940yeah yeah yeah and you know I went to a language conference last year and you know you're signing
00:44:05.860up and you're all excited and then I get there and they're all speaking Anishinaabemoyin but I
00:44:12.160didn't know enough words and they were just like speaking and speaking and it kind of overwhelmed
00:44:16.900me and I was kind of getting anxious because I was like calling myself in I don't know enough
00:44:21.520right and then I realized is the whole conference going to be in Anishinaabemuin and I won't know
00:44:29.020anything while I'm here because I'm so English now but I had to really talk to myself and really
00:44:38.640self-regulate myself it's okay not to know it's okay just to be around the language it's okay to
00:44:45.360be you know reassured by your own people and there's a lot of grandparents that are like
00:44:50.960looking at you and smiling at you and just glad you're here as opposed to this old narration of
00:44:59.860I don't know enough and I have to answer because you're telling me I have to answer like that old
00:45:06.060part that is scared and feeling um i guess not worthy right and then then the worthy that
00:45:15.240worthfulness you are worthful to be just amongst your people and you're right you were away for
00:45:24.160for a little while but you're you know like my sister will always say but you're home now
00:45:29.680and that that always I you know when I was when I was younger I would like it would catch me I'd
00:45:37.480feel like that little person cry where you couldn't catch your breath you know and that's
00:45:43.760that homesickness and and she'd always reassure me you know she'd help me you're home now sister
00:45:49.380you you you're you're just home now so I guess that's that reassurance is when we're walking
00:45:56.860in and out of these different places and when we're going to ceremonies or into community events
00:46:02.580or powwows you know it's just reassuring each other you're home now you're here now
00:46:07.160and we're grateful you're here now come back we miss you when you're when you're not here you know
00:46:14.360will you bring us home and maybe bring your brothers and sisters and all of your siblings
00:46:23.380all across the world a very broad definition of the term sibling will you bring us all home
00:46:29.320with a song Elaine that we can listen to over and over and over again so I I used to well I still
00:46:41.000sometimes do I used to um do certain songs specifically that they would help me breathe
00:46:48.740Because in anxiety, I'd start just upper breathing.
00:46:52.880So when I'm feeling anxious, I would hum.