Poog with Kate Berlant and Jacqueline Novak - REMIX： The Unconscious Hours

00:00:00.840 Hi, I'm Kate Berlant.

00:00:02.340 I'm Jacqueline Novak.

00:00:03.440 And this is POOG, an ongoing conversation about wellness between two obsessive friends.

00:00:08.160 Two untamable intellects.

00:00:09.940 This is our hobby. 0.97

00:00:10.780 This is our hell.

00:00:11.660 This is our naked desire for free products.

00:00:13.980 This is POOG.

00:00:22.160 Welcome to POOG. It's morning POOG.

00:00:24.540 They used to call it morning POOG.

00:00:26.200 this is wake up with pook because folks i'm here to admit something i consider myself deeply

00:00:32.760 punctual punctual on time i don't i really am deeply punctual in fact i'm usually 45 minutes

00:00:37.280 early no i'm so terrified of being late to any kind of professional engagement i'll be circling

00:00:41.000 the block for hours and i last night fayda jacqueline and i are on a text i won't go into

00:00:46.020 the micro details i slept through it yeah if you're about to say me okay when i went to bed

00:00:51.880 there was questions from jacqueline i slept i slept boldly through we had a 9 a.m morning pook

00:00:58.920 it is a great day here in los angeles i did not sleep well the previous night i was running on

00:01:03.740 four hours so i really needed it guess who slept 11 talk about the 11s doll i slept them really

00:01:11.780 wait 11 hours oh sorry the 11s okay i thought you meant you slept in a scrunched position sorry

00:01:16.720 sorry um so 11 hours okay so then i so then i wake up my eyes open like a doll's they flutter

00:01:22.660 open and i think and my first thought was i thought go on finish but then i want to get

00:01:28.920 into it was i bet it's like 8 a.m and then i look over at my analog clock it's 9 34 i've blown

00:01:38.360 through i grabbed my phone really cute text including an audio from you that was so cute

00:01:45.380 that was me trying to wake you up listen to this

00:01:48.300 so cute if i could wake up to that every day oh i'm i i will i will deliver it to you because

00:02:00.560 it made me so happy it's hysterical and then theta and jacqueline welcome me with open arms

00:02:07.260 and here i am with my morning cup and guess who's i do feel welcome i feel it was rude and i feel

00:02:12.140 it is obnoxious what i did no i said i feel i was rude not it was rude i think i'd ever say that

00:02:18.840 we're not i didn't think you said it was you were not rude and here i am with my morning cup and

00:02:24.260 it's a morning poog and i feel energized from the 11 hours and here we are would you like to know my

00:02:28.720 sleep story please oh it's deranged so so i'm actually in the opposite position okay i got up

00:02:36.200 at six whoa okay doll's eyes opening or alarm oh so that's right that's what it is that's what

00:02:45.340 it means opening means like a natural like the ideal way of waking up unalarmed like right oh

00:02:50.800 here i am rested person the idea of truly waking naturally like what does it mean to wake up if

00:02:56.480 you're in a sensory deprivation tank right like like you know it's just an interesting question

00:03:00.980 no but i mean i mean like you know you're going in there you sleep there like you naturally

00:03:05.700 anyway all right so hold on hold on hold on it would happen 100 yeah it would have to and like

00:03:10.620 i get into that where i wake up boom like 8 a.m on the dot well you know if you train if you tell

00:03:17.220 your oh you know what i meant to say the other week about this and i'm going to tell you my

00:03:20.740 sleep story momentarily but it was that i trained myself once i realized i have such a hard time

00:03:25.920 getting up in the morning and then i and i only have one shot every day to one shot to get it

00:03:30.480 Right. Like how am I supposed to train? You know what I mean? Yeah. So I decided one day to train

00:03:36.240 in rapid succession. So I laid down on my bed. I sort of try to like let myself fall asleep.

00:03:42.100 And then I have an alarm go off. Yeah. I mean, I did this once. Alarm go off like two minutes

00:03:46.860 later. Fly out of bed. OK. Were you able to fall asleep in the two minutes? I didn't. I decided I

00:03:52.620 didn't even matter. OK. If I fell asleep, it was more about I just I did reps. OK. Of hearing my

00:03:57.940 alarm and getting up and getting out literally practicing the movement like 20 times and i don't

00:04:02.880 know you know it's it's rarely about result for me i know i know so so two days ago yeah saturday

00:04:11.420 i've been feeling depleted you've heard me use the word a couple times now language is you know

00:04:17.960 all we have all we have and less we turn to dance which also has its limits well yeah you believe

00:04:25.120 dance will save you so i slept all of saturday i slept for a number of hours in the afternoon

00:04:30.200 and saturday okay sunday i did it again sunday i slept like six hours on the couch what hours

00:04:36.600 give me give me an idea that was yesterday i can't even remember okay noon to six one

00:04:40.640 oh noon i don't know like 11 to four damn that's a chunk and then last night i was

00:04:46.340 emotionally deranged okay i was writhing in emotional pain that makes writhing in sourceless 0.69

00:04:52.340 emotional pain now it's not sourceless it's that you mean sleeping during the day i just want to

00:04:56.960 say that that kind of sleep strangeness will i mean if i take a bad nap i'll wake up the

00:05:03.840 hopelessness is so searing in my blood in my blood i'm like interesting so acting bold choice wow

00:05:09.900 you know like i will go oh yeah my life my career i if i take a wrong nap i wake up and i'm like

00:05:16.280 okay so and i just every relationship in my life i see clearly for the first time and they're all

00:05:22.320 looking at me going what if you tried listening to someone for once what would that feel like you 0.97

00:05:27.220 bitch you know like i'm just saying i get i get really dark with a bad with a bad sleep 0.99

00:05:33.860 with a strange nap sleep disruption is is the is the fastest way to shocking mental illness 0.99

00:05:41.240 no absolutely and i cannot decide i cannot decide in this life whether or not naps serve me okay

00:05:49.660 half the time i take them and i go why am i so afraid of a nap you know and all this okay this

00:05:56.060 is this is who i am i have a siesta after lunch okay there's a long tradition of this yes and

00:06:02.060 then i go i cannot nap okay it yeah it's it's a waking hell uh when you wake up i mean it's

00:06:09.520 unspeakable to even speak of waking up and it's dark out because the evening has fallen i mean

00:06:14.740 i mean that is uh suicide watch i'm sorry but it's it's so it's really dark it's really dark

00:06:21.100 and i was trying to observe so i was creating i was doing fists i was doing claw fingers okay

00:06:26.680 with my emotional because i i wanted to like punch something that kind of energy i want to

00:06:31.440 destroy something but i want to destroy anything and punch i don't really have anything good to

00:06:35.540 punch and punching never works for me anyway i'm always like you know the fantasy of being one of

00:06:39.540 these people who boxes out the aggression take it out on the bag they say okay okay so then i

00:06:46.200 punched a pillow yeah but it sucks it's like there's just not so this was like and i was

00:06:51.380 thinking i was like i was like aware of the absurdity but i was like lying there on the

00:06:55.380 couch and i was like i gotta get like gotta get it out somehow like i gotta get the energy out

00:07:00.240 and so i like flew into plank okay i like rolled off the couch and into plank something yes i had

00:07:06.700 a therapist brilliant therapist brilliant post-modern therapist who i worship and i will

00:07:12.160 not say her name out of respect for her anonymity told me that when you're really overwhelmed she

00:07:17.940 was actually the first person to say you're not supposed to meditate if you're really like there's

00:07:22.460 this assumption like i'm really upset i've been triggered i i'm i'm i'm i'm spiraling here let me

00:07:27.720 meditate it's actually not recommended she said push up against a wall go up against a wall and

00:07:34.540 just push the wall as hard as you can and something about the vagus nerve or something like that's a

00:07:39.460 really so your impulse to plank is very similar in that no that's interesting you did the right

00:07:45.040 thing i think it's utter comedy too like so i'm writhing i'm writhing in this thing and i'm like

00:07:49.680 oh but i was very aware of i was like i have to i need movement like the problem here is like i can

00:07:56.360 go so you know sleepy and nap and lie there and just completely detached from my body my body is

00:08:02.500 a lump and then and then it gets to this point I think where it's like okay your body's actually

00:08:08.940 screaming out for movement now screaming totally and so I was like do I get up and do like

00:08:14.720 like a full practice right now and whatever and I don't know but I was like how was plank though

00:08:19.620 it was nice to have it was nice to experience plank as angry okay angry plank okay because

00:08:28.100 first of all I've been going I was like I have to engage all of my muscles in an unpleasant way

00:08:33.020 that I can go that I can kind of have the like right and all because I was lying on my back

00:08:37.900 just doing like stiff claws and then I like did like a one I tried out to see how it felt to

00:08:42.860 punch the ground okay like punching the ground with your own fists the ones I know okay it was

00:08:48.680 sort of like you know Chris please don't do that to yourself or whatever like that kind of thing

00:08:53.160 and then i'm like oh my god i need to do something and then yeah plank was all right it was like it

00:08:58.520 was nice to be in an angry plank versus a the promise of placid plank the yoga kind of you

00:09:05.300 know i'm in the most uncomfortable position of my life elbows are slightly bent right when you're

00:09:09.460 planking just yeah i don't want to lock at the joints you know right and then so i was like i

00:09:14.860 have to move i've slept all weekend right yeah i slept yesterday i slept today and then i'm like

00:09:19.500 okay and i'm falling asleep early this was all very early and so i fell asleep so i'm like i'm

00:09:24.340 getting my ass up at six and i was like i was like i'm doing yoga i was like i'm doing it it's back

00:09:29.600 it's time so i got up i went down i tried to turn on the dvd of it's a crass name fat free yoga 0.55

00:09:38.080 but it is it is but it happens but laughably it happens to be the most you know spiritual

00:09:45.360 metaphysical of the yogas it's it's i mean like of the videos i have it's it's uh the raviyana

00:09:50.360 kundalini that i like and they're but they're rogue they're not part of the institution that's

00:09:55.480 why i like them i've said this before i like to make it very clear because people come at me hey

00:09:58.700 well do you stand by everything kundalini organization has has stood for no okay people

00:10:04.700 have come at me okay so so um the remote was nowhere to be found and so channeling turning

00:10:12.420 the input you know input the television to get to the dvd input you know oh sure cling through

00:10:16.960 the inputs hdmi one hdmi two that sort of thing see i don't do that okay and so you can imagine

00:10:22.580 me not finding a remote and wondering if i was gonna have to locate an input button on the back

00:10:27.360 of the television occasionally those exist if you can believe it and i took a one breath and i saw

00:10:32.260 where it was the remote i got on the mat it was dirty mat there's coffee spilled on it but i said

00:10:39.620 doesn't matter okay yeah sorry i'm telling this like it's really dramatic like no keep going

00:10:45.380 honestly i'm riveted and the murderer came in and then the murderer came in and then i turned on my

00:10:50.780 red light yeah you know my red light that you also have the i need to blast my knee with light path 0.76

00:10:55.140 led yeah well i've been blasting my my inner ankle my navicular accessory that the poog listeners have

00:11:00.820 done nothing for i fell asleep worried about my knees i was like okay see you in 10 years knees 0.80

00:11:05.920 but I did I did the yoga and it was unpleasant to revisit the movements that I've mastered in

00:11:11.580 the past and yet find myself suffering through hauling my my limbs up into the air stretch pose

00:11:18.960 are you familiar downward dog I assume but downward dog downward dog is you know they're

00:11:24.220 like you know this is supposed to be a restorative pose and it actually is for me it's one of the few

00:11:27.360 but it does it to me too are you familiar with stretch pose no where you lie on your back and

00:11:33.000 you lift up your feet six inches off the ground and then you lift your head and stare at your feet

00:11:38.360 it's literal hell it's like my least favorite yoga pose like a ab crunch and no yeah but it's

00:11:43.640 you're not crunching in you're lengthening so you're you're shooting you're you're like 0.81

00:11:47.520 your neck is like your neck hurts i hate when your neck that sounds awful is tense mabel your 0.62

00:11:54.080 neck shouldn't hurt not hurt that way hurt like muscle i guess oh they're like and they say they

00:11:59.320 go if it's uncomfortable if this is uncomfortable for you or you feel angry or whatever they're like

00:12:03.940 that's because your glands need it oh christ mabel come here you're gonna have to settle in you're

00:12:08.340 gonna have to settle in fast and then the question of whether or not leaning on mabel you know 0.67

00:12:12.640 emotionally on her small body how much to lean on her but anyway i did yoga okay and that's why 0.95

00:12:18.320 you get the beautiful mood that you see now

00:12:20.440 i'm not in a good place oh my god i just had a huge realization about woke up on the wrong

00:12:31.720 side of the bed i'm literally in shock are you ready i always pictured it as meaning i just

00:12:36.320 realized this isn't what it is getting like you got oh no is that the expression you got out

00:12:41.640 of bed no you woke up on the wrong side which means like you're over on the left versus over

00:12:46.040 on the right i've always thought of it as which side you stepped out of your bed

00:12:48.760 isn't that funny that is bizarre i actually have here's a little kind of ocd thing of mine

00:12:56.060 i read in a like a 17 magazine or a cosmo 462 years ago that selma hayek always steps out of

00:13:03.840 bed with the right foot first no like and so i've been doing that my entire life my entire adult

00:13:09.780 life so i think about i think about selma hayek every morning selma oh selma it's selma what was

00:13:15.740 saying selma isn't it selma i think it is yeah yeah it absolutely is um isn't that wild though

00:13:21.620 by the way another thought no therefore she's i've never articulated that no one knows that

00:13:26.000 yes and isn't it it's weird how i say something like that which is deeply personal and has been

00:13:29.760 the kind of a ritual i've been doing for again 462 years suddenly now that it's hit the air and

00:13:34.540 i've said it out loud i i had a urge not to say it yeah and now do i feel robbed of a private

00:13:41.060 ritual no this is huge um what do should we keep things to ourselves that's like the kind of the

00:13:47.320 big question because i find that i can't and so sometimes i feel like part of my almost sounded 0.83

00:13:53.040 like you're heading towards can i feel like i can't no i i can't keep a goddamn thing to myself

00:13:59.160 right and so the foot thing that i just said like that's something that i've never uttered

00:14:04.020 but of course don't you feel that like you got excited when you realized i think we share this

00:14:09.340 when you realized you had something that you've never articulated it's exciting right yeah there's

00:14:14.220 a goddamn thrill there's a oh we found a jewel in the soil right yeah to me it's inherently a jewel 0.67

00:14:20.300 because it was in the soil even if it's a mere rock it was buried deep within my private life 0.99

00:14:26.480 right so so there's a thrill to bringing out to making of sensible the latent uh i'm always

00:14:33.040 try to work ostensibility versus latency into oh any conversation i forget do you talking to sleep

00:14:44.860 so rarely because you know what i don't even think we talked about this on pook i do a fair

00:14:52.480 amount and it's usually these are the things oh oh you heard one oh my god wait wait wait this is

00:14:57.500 huge so when we were sharing a bed for four nights yeah so fun jacqueline novak will wake

00:15:06.860 up like this i would say three out of the four mornings i woke up something like this 0.99

00:15:10.660 shut the fuck up full volume full speaking voice what else did you say shut the fuck up was a huge 1.00

00:15:20.260 one yeah that was big oh fuck what was you were like yeah you're like shut the fuck up because 1.00

00:15:24.600 you were like shut the fuck up yeah because my teeth are like clenched in the night complete 0.99

00:15:29.360 anger and then wait what else was it i'm forgetting but it was something like that and it was the 0.99

00:15:34.920 funniest thing it was on you you were dead asleep you were like are you asleep like and i was like 0.95

00:15:41.960 oh yeah sorry that happens so it's almost always it's shut the fuck up is honestly like one of the 0.98

00:15:48.060 biggest ones yeah i could go like wake myself up shut the fuck up yeah it's like it's like that 0.54

00:15:55.240 is complete declarative dead clear anger yeah and and there's something and i think it's really like 0.84

00:16:01.900 relevant and significant yes it is like it's always that i am in these dreams i feel i'm being

00:16:07.120 sort of wronged yes or someone's really got it wrong okay and this like desire to explain myself

00:16:13.340 or clarify or whatever and like the frustration and then whatever just comes flying out and it's

00:16:19.440 it activates the body it's hysterical i don't know it's like disturbing but yeah it's shut the 1.00

00:16:24.560 fuck up it's like fuck you or like oh fuck you that was another one one morning you said fuck you 1.00

00:16:30.120 oh my god yeah 1.00

00:16:32.240 well there is a big question with lucid dreaming um which is are you actually astral projecting

00:16:45.240 okay maybe not a big question but some people there's a bit of a confusion between whether

00:16:48.480 you're astral projecting or lucid dreaming and what's the difference right what's what's the

00:16:52.880 difference now in theory you know i guess just classic lucid dreaming would be you are in your

00:16:59.580 dreamscape and that's it right and you're controlling what's going on and etc etc right

00:17:03.640 right but but astral projection is this concept that you have an astral body and that when you

00:17:08.540 dream you are actually uh moving about the astral plane of existence in your astral body right now

00:17:16.560 or that this can sometimes happen as a result of lucid dreaming because your your body is asleep

00:17:22.160 and your consciousness is is active and and super conscious because now it's aware that it's dreaming

00:17:27.420 right now you're in a real position to activate the astral form and step away now the astral form

00:17:31.900 is connected to the the abdomen okay by a silver cord that stretches thinner and thinner the farther

00:17:37.740 away you go from your body etc so it doesn't give the people the basics of astral and by the way

00:17:41.060 for those lucid dreaming we should define lucid dreaming is when you dream but you know you're

00:17:44.560 dreaming so you're completely asleep and you're in the dream but you're able to manipulate it and

00:17:48.680 you're fully aware oh this is a dream and you can manipulate your surroundings and it's pure

00:17:52.380 heaven mine always turns sexual almost immediately right and that's that's not because you go okay

00:17:56.840 here I am what I want to do well the classic for me is what there's different versions of reality

00:18:01.280 testing right yeah no but the different versions of reality testing is a thing so with lucid

00:18:07.320 dreaming right during the day you're supposed to test reality by doing things that don't work in

00:18:12.480 a dream so you look at at a number on a piece of paper it says 532 you look away you look back it

00:18:17.840 says 532 again still then you you're awake right that's in dreams apparently that can't happen you

00:18:25.160 can't you also can't turn lights on and off okay so these are so you practice wait you haven't

00:18:29.500 heard any of this no boy those books are unread on the nightstand i got to page seven one exercise

00:18:35.600 this is like stare at my hands like you focus on your hands for a long time before you go to sleep

00:18:39.120 and then so when you when you're like am i dreaming you look down at your hands and you're

00:18:42.460 like oh i'm dreaming it's like creating these little touchstones for you but even better i

00:18:46.360 think are these these tests okay so during the day you practice continually checking am i dreaming

00:18:53.080 okay of course you know you're not worried about you know it's not like you think you are but you

00:18:58.120 get into a habit of always doing that or looking at your watch seeing the time looking away looking

00:19:01.760 back if the number remains okay because that can't happen in dream they also say you can't

00:19:05.440 change light in a dream like if you turn on a light you can't turn a light on or off in a dream

00:19:09.140 whatever that kind of thing right so then you get in the habit of doing that then when you're sleep

00:19:13.060 you um you know your dream you're doing because it's a habit and then you realize you're dreaming

00:19:17.960 whatever right then you can store but what a really simple sort of classic um thing is things

00:19:25.040 to note are if you can't dial a number on a telephone and it's driving you crazy and it

00:19:31.060 won't work it was a classic kind of anxiety dream thing maybe it's a dream so like if your tech

00:19:35.460 isn't working in the way that like then that's what wakes you realize it's a dream yes another

00:19:40.180 one is if you see someone you realize they're dead you're like wait you can't be here you're

00:19:44.760 dead right right you died a number of years ago then you realize you're lucid dreaming and i

00:19:48.920 classically one time was dreaming and was talking to a late cousin of mine realized oh wait this

00:19:58.040 means i'm lucid dreaming and immediately ditched the conversations put my hands above my head

00:20:03.240 and soared into the trees okay and like i could have like stayed and you know asked him about the

00:20:10.080 afterlife because some people feel like those are you know those dream visitations are real

00:20:14.140 visitations from the spirit world yeah but i just like i was like hold on zoomed into the trees

00:20:18.400 and then was just soaring looping looping arcing through trees that were not only green okay they

00:20:25.460 were lush the sun was filtering through them and they were lilac they were a pale pink they were

00:20:30.860 green there was yellows it was beautiful god that sounds nice the last lucid dream i had i just

00:20:36.760 remember because they say that if you start reading about lucid dreaming and start or start

00:20:39.900 thinking about like you will start to like as soon as you kind of introduce it into your waking life

00:20:43.780 then it just be you're more likely to actually conjure them yes and i you know famously of course

00:20:49.240 read like seven pages of a book and then fell asleep that night i was in a dream and my the 0.86

00:20:54.240 only lucid dreamy moment i had was i was like i realized oh i'm dreaming oh shit and there was a

00:20:58.500 closet and i said open the closet i said okay i'm gonna see michael jackson in the closet and i

00:21:02.780 opened the closet nothing was there i moved the clothes to the side and there was a painting of

00:21:08.500 michael jackson in the back of the closet it was so it's so yes it was like it was like a rich oil

00:21:13.680 painting like the colors were so real yes and the clothes i feel like i could feel the fabric on my

00:21:18.980 hands like push the clothing aside i mean it's so it's it's a radical experience lucid dreaming

00:21:24.260 well why and yet here i am just like yeah so just read the book i can have a whole second life and

00:21:30.440 that's what they talk about with lucid dreaming it's like you can't have another life you can

00:21:34.040 workout kind of issues like you can actually work out as well i believe that if you do ab work in

00:21:41.440 the dream state okay it will trigger things in the brain that will release hormones that will

00:21:46.600 tighten those abs as a little belief of mine but what i've done in in those states okay where

00:21:52.420 to me it's sort of am i loose dreaming or i'm aiming to astral project that has been how i go

00:21:56.460 to sleep for the last 10 years okay i go to sleep trying to leave my body and on the occasion

00:22:03.960 that I've sort of half done it maybe through um this dreaming you know unclear what I've done

00:22:10.280 is I go through walls okay and that's exciting there's an idea that you so you stick your arm

00:22:18.740 through the wall okay because you could do that when you're astral and then and then yeah and then

00:22:24.480 you feel around what's in there and I felt like sometimes I stuck my arm in the wall and I felt

00:22:28.720 things that were like what would be in the wall you know what i mean like wiring and rats wow do

00:22:34.500 you just drop your gua sha that must have been it it was no i've been dying to get off skincare

00:22:40.200 and into the spiritual and here we are and yet the gua sha calls out by dropping on the floor

00:22:44.280 i know you will not be taking over today sir all right um so but do you fly in your dreams

00:22:52.680 yes i mean because going through the wall and into the sky okay okay is big like that's pretty

00:23:00.380 much what i do when when i mean taking flight come on taking flight is is and sometimes oh

00:23:09.080 i had a huge realization about dreams recently okay this is huge i've been meaning to ask people

00:23:14.440 then i forget all right do you have any locations locations settings whatever i guess it could be

00:23:21.540 characters that exist in your dreams in a recurring fashion consistently the same that do not exist in

00:23:30.280 real life okay no I feel like I'm never in a place more than once okay so let me so so let me give you

00:23:36.760 the examples because I feel like I didn't even notice that I do this because it is the second

00:23:41.060 life there like I just took it for granted okay I've realized here's some of them I've been like

00:23:45.220 logging them there's a discount store in my brain okay that exists in a place in my hometown where

00:23:52.020 there is none okay and and often i have to run there in my recurring dream in which um i have

00:23:59.240 this recurring dream that it's christmas morning or late christmas eve and i haven't uh gotten

00:24:04.020 everybody in my family a gift okay and i have to try to run out and see if i can find something

00:24:09.540 that looks suitable from like a cvs okay but there's this discount store this is my dream

00:24:14.580 the other one there's a comedy club somewhere in ohio okay okay and and it has a very and this is

00:24:21.360 a comedy club that in my mind almost every time i try to go do a set there i'm late okay i'm late

00:24:27.580 and i'm like is the guy mad at me from last time being late it's a specific comment i've done

00:24:32.720 comedy sets on there multiple times okay in my dreams okay there's um there's a sort of i was

00:24:38.980 gonna say discount again but it's not there's oh there's a specific kind of barnes noble type place

00:24:43.720 that has a thing in the center i don't have these i can you believe it i feel like you might though

00:24:48.580 not really there's a hotel like a weird hotel they're all kind of like extensions of places

00:24:54.200 that do exist isn't that just wild i just realized it is another world no it when you really start

00:25:00.920 to think about i mean the way we just accept dreaming we're like you're born you dream and

00:25:05.400 It's like, wait, go back.

00:25:07.800 What?

00:25:15.120 I was falling asleep last night watching a film.

00:25:19.120 Is there anything better than the quality of the sleep that you slip into while watching a movie?

00:25:25.760 Unreal.

00:25:27.060 And then I felt myself doing it now.

00:25:29.220 I felt myself doing the thing where, again, I was watching it with my partner.

00:25:33.300 and i was trying to hide that i was falling asleep so this is one of the biggest react to it and then

00:25:38.980 i go i go oh wait how about i'm and then jolted myself awake but then that sleep that the jolted

00:25:47.380 well tried to you know wake up wake up i don't know just you know because it was like i suggested

00:25:52.580 we watch it and then here i am falling asleep you know it's rude but the delicious the velvety

00:25:57.800 sleep that can only come from watching something well there's to me it feels like the brain and

00:26:04.860 the sounds of the tv and whatever story is lulled you into they're like they're in this handshake

00:26:12.280 okay and then the fear that if the person you're with discovers you're asleep that they'll turn it

00:26:17.780 off suddenly it's like right right my brain was hanging from the handshake with that sound

00:26:23.240 And if you now remove the silence, free fall.

00:26:26.300 The sleep will go.

00:26:27.200 Yeah, totally.

00:26:28.160 It's action thrillers for me.

00:26:31.840 That's what it was.

00:26:32.660 That's what I want every night.

00:26:34.260 Okay.

00:26:34.420 See, this is interesting because that's not my usual genre.

00:26:37.000 And it's certainly not my usual fall asleep genre.

00:26:39.220 It's like.

00:26:39.820 Is that what it was?

00:26:40.720 What it has come to.

00:26:41.580 This is fascinating.

00:26:42.400 i watched a documentary in the vein of um sorry in a vein of like a what the bleep

00:26:55.640 do we know for example okay it appeared on i don't know amazon or something and i was like

00:27:00.180 well that's for me and it's like all these psychic experiments and but they bring in

00:27:05.340 you know scientists and they measure and they see and it was pretty satisfying and i'll find the

00:27:11.160 title and i'll reference it in the future but it got me back onto wanting to charge up my water

00:27:16.440 with uh words oh yeah i'm back in baby i'm back in okay everything maybe i'll do some water

00:27:23.300 charging this week put a word under your bed under a candles classic right ritualization um

00:27:29.540 when i was in the eighth grade i stole the school id from a boy that i thought was cute and i slept

00:27:34.140 with it under my pillow for weeks nothing happened that's interesting under your pillow concept i

00:27:41.100 mean what is that i love that it's very appealing well you know what it is i think the idea of doing

00:27:48.140 psychic work in your sleep on the level of the subconscious right is appealing absolutely like

00:27:54.700 setting the intention um you know someone sent us it was beautiful and we've posted but

00:28:00.160 a beautiful silk dyed pillowcase and it was so kind because they sent one to me and one to you

00:28:07.400 and they use the same plant dye on both and they wrote a beautiful note saying you know you and

00:28:12.160 kate can sleep on this and maybe beautiful like the plant dyes will connect you and you can astral

00:28:16.280 project and like hang out with each other on the astral field or whatever something along those

00:28:20.620 lines and i was like yes exactly i remember years ago reading about astral projection these people

00:28:25.020 leaving their body at night literally two friends in high school and they would or three friends

00:28:29.440 two would would go astrally over to the other person's house at night like and like call the

00:28:33.860 other person out of their their body and the three spirits would all go flying off amazing on

00:28:38.580 the astral realm soaring through the through the world if we're why aren't we doing that no we have

00:28:43.860 to prepare humiliating yeah we have to do that we should be doing that let's actually get into that

00:28:48.240 let's get into that we can do it it's real let's get into that in a more intense way because then

00:28:51.600 also i get excited about prepping for the afterlife right exactly if you don't strengthen it now i 0.69

00:28:56.720 mean you know you're fucked i i've always felt and yeah and um but if we could ask to project 0.77

00:29:03.840 i mean people do it you need to just read like the three books i've read you'll be completely like 0.99

00:29:08.480 on board and you'll be dying to do it at night the rope method where you pull yourself out by

00:29:12.980 imagined a rope above your above your head you pull yourself out of your body and up through

00:29:16.800 the ceiling oh and then where do you go exactly um you can i have to read my lucid dreaming book

00:29:24.320 that's kind of for me my dream since i started you know my dream journal i'm writing again when

00:29:28.400 i was in new york i only wrote maybe a couple but every morning writing down the dreams my dreams

00:29:33.020 are so much more vivid now and i feel like the next logical step is to strengthen up the lucid

00:29:39.020 dreaming which i think somehow does fold into astral projection it does because there's a lot

00:29:43.340 of question of sort of am i lucid dreaming or am i as or projecting that can go on and different

00:29:47.680 people have different feelings about this i'm like well as long as you're having an interesting

00:29:51.400 experience kind of like who cares but there are differences because i think the the difference

00:29:56.520 primarily would be in astral projection arguably you might be like doing remote viewing okay so

00:30:02.120 in astral projection you could actually like there there are like stories you know in these books

00:30:06.460 it's like someone astral projects they find themselves over at their boss's house and they

00:30:10.120 overhear the boss saying the thing about whatever and the next morning they say by the way i didn't

00:30:16.260 do the i didn't misfile that yeah i didn't misfile the file as you said to janny last night okay but

00:30:22.900 then what does the boss do the boss says what what well yeah yeah i mean i mean it's just it's just

00:30:29.120 so you can get information that you otherwise would seemingly not have access to okay i don't

00:30:35.000 know if i want that it's not kind of one of the great joys of having a body separating you from

00:30:39.760 others that which is exactly the actual fact that we can't be everywhere else so we can't hear things

00:30:44.180 not meant for us that there are there is a world of secrets absolutely like it's the thing of like

00:30:48.900 do you want to know when you're going to die absolutely not and this is why right now

00:30:52.340 psychics for me it's a no get out of here with that

00:30:55.660 i've always felt i need one i need i need to wake up one hour past the opposite hour at which i

00:31:07.340 went to bed so if i went to bed at eight i'm not truly rested until nine a.m nine see i've

00:31:14.160 i need to go to one in ideal circumstances what's your hour because i find for me seven and a half

00:31:22.080 hours is great nine hours is great it actually kind of just sets me off i heard once that

00:31:27.900 seven and a half hours is actually more restful than eight hours i know what you're thinking

00:31:32.800 half hour yeah it's actually no i'll tell you exactly what it is it needs to be it's a hour

00:31:38.240 and a half slash three hour cycles okay i believe okay i was one of the early researchers

00:31:43.600 okay okay of sleep therapies uh various modalities of course you know between 99 and 2004

00:31:51.680 uh just personal personal work god i love sleep you know i ordered from switzerland's uh one of

00:31:57.840 the first smart yeah um sleep things it was like it was like you put it on your wrist it's a piece

00:32:05.140 a technology that no one had but me okay and it was before the apple watch before all this okay

00:32:11.120 it was a little thing you put on your wrist and it sensed where you were in your sleep cycle in

00:32:15.000 order to awaken you this was because i had profound sleep issues known as it would like shake you

00:32:22.040 awake like what do you mean no it was just it was an alarm but it waited until the right moment in

00:32:26.420 your cycle oh you could tell whether you were finishing up rem sleep i've always found it

00:32:31.860 embarrassing that REM sleep okay that it's pronounced REM like it's you know rapid eye

00:32:37.700 movement section of sleep okay like it's obviously REM but like they've gotten sloppy and just they're

00:32:44.060 calling it REM which I find humiliating do you know what I mean like stick with the acronym I

00:32:47.980 mean whereas I get it see I didn't know you used to struggle with sleep I'm oh blessed with the

00:32:52.940 gift of sleep okay famously as a baby they would have to wake me up to feed me get ready Kate no

00:32:57.560 I suffer from hypersomnia

00:32:59.860 oh I did know this about you

00:33:01.380 well the 27 hour sleeps

00:33:03.280 the sleep attacks I would have that

00:33:05.200 I then would you know

00:33:07.540 miss the day job

00:33:08.280 not 27 hours Jacqueline

00:33:11.000 and when you say you mean you're going to sleep

00:33:13.780 and then you wake up

00:33:14.620 so here's what would happen

00:33:16.020 there would be moments where

00:33:19.060 I just want to say if there's an earthquake

00:33:21.820 in the next 10 minutes I sense one coming now

00:33:23.720 I just want to say that now

00:33:24.700 just because I would hate to

00:33:27.540 have this thought i would hate to have a feeling like this like is an earthquake about to happen

00:33:31.520 and then it happens and no one will ever believe me and i just want to say and i'm sorry and i

00:33:34.760 really don't want an earthquake but i did the last kind of not major earthquake but there was

00:33:38.920 an earthquake in la several months ago that really gave a shake like i'm from la and i for many you

00:33:44.320 know i was reason i moved it was long enough to be like hello it was scary i was completely nude

00:33:49.740 i had nothing to do i wait hold on i just want to say the last earthquake i the night of the

00:33:54.280 earthquake around 9 p.m i was like all we need right now is an earthquake and i had this earthquake

00:33:58.680 feeling mere hours later a rumble was heard okay so i'm just saying that if no i'm excited for you

00:34:04.660 what i hope i'm wrong but i just and we'll just see can you imagine if within the recording one

00:34:09.340 hit you didn't feel the one a few months ago there was a big one i mean it wasn't the big one by the

00:34:15.220 way another concept i'm obsessed i can't go into the big one i can't go into the big one absurd

00:34:20.740 i've lost too much sleep over the big one okay but no but i moved because here's what happened

00:34:24.560 so there was there was an earthquake at my last apartment this one really shook me oh god oh i

00:34:29.940 just want to say about no pun intended by the way i just want to say about no pun intended okay

00:34:33.740 okay there's no more saying no pun intended okay because yeah what everybody means by no pun

00:34:39.720 intended is pun intended that's what they fucking mean okay or they mean um it's clearly a celebration

00:34:47.460 and leaning into the pun which is why i commit to and i know i sort of didn't just do it now 0.68

00:34:52.880 but i commit to just if i accidentally make you know a pun okay i'm just gonna stone face it right 0.98

00:35:00.080 on through you know what i'm saying yeah of course carry the fuck on you're not a pun person 0.97

00:35:05.300 exactly the lowest form of humor some say sarcasm is the lowest yeah yeah i remember 0.98

00:35:12.420 someone said that once oh sarcasm what i deplore sarcasm oh well no i mean earnesty you know is um

00:35:19.820 or do i i mean i don't know we love sarcasm we love it all i don't wait hold on take me back

00:35:24.400 sorry i interrupted you about my apologies i love it it fills me thank you but i do want to bring

00:35:29.900 you back to what you were saying because i was riveted about your 27 hour sleep so of course

00:35:35.580 i've always loved sleep okay i remember as a child not wanting to go to school and just because i

00:35:40.860 wanted to sleep and my mother saying you can sleep when you get home and i would be like

00:35:44.040 like after school you can get back in bed okay and i was like but i won't want to then you know

00:35:51.640 what i mean i want you as my daughter it always goes back to that for me please reincarnate as

00:35:56.440 my daughter but i don't want you to have to die for me to have you imagine just just knife to the 0.99

00:36:01.400 throat i get control of my soul in such a fashion this is where i can knife it to the throat and 1.00

00:36:07.000 immediately drop into your emerging uterus baby yeah body leaping all right amazing so whatever 0.86

00:36:14.860 sleeping right so yeah i'd have these sort of sleep attacks where i'd go to sleep or i'd fall

00:36:19.940 asleep in kind of a state of stress i guess you could say and then i would be deep in the sleep

00:36:24.480 and then there would be these times where i sort of come to okay oh what time is it okay look at

00:36:30.660 it's like it's like it's like light out or it's dark out i can't i can't interpret what it means

00:36:35.120 You know what I mean? And then I'm like, oh, no. And then out again. OK, out again. So that's the key. So then I'm out again. Then years pass. OK, because in the dream, it would often be these sort of epics. Right. Years pass inside of the dream is what I'm saying. OK. Yeah. I live a life. You know, it's a whole thing. We know about this. I go to that comedy club in Ohio and my dreams kick that only right. Yeah. And there's a sense of urgency.

00:37:00.980 There's also a sense of I haven't completed the dream.

00:37:03.420 And so I need to go back to it.

00:37:04.240 But anyway, I'd be pulled back under.

00:37:05.980 So it was like, you know, I was only surfacing, but my body was still under surfacing to get

00:37:10.880 a breath of conscious life and then sucked back through the undertow of sleep.

00:37:15.420 Drop down again.

00:37:16.520 You're almost hypnotizing me into sleep.

00:37:17.780 I feel like I can fall asleep right now.

00:37:19.400 I do have that effect on people.

00:37:21.160 All right.

00:37:24.280 I just mean you're like, no, right.

00:37:26.620 Pulling, pulling into the sleep.

00:37:27.760 Also because I slept so long last night.

00:37:30.480 No, right. The 11 hours began this. OK, well, the whole thing is when you hit 11, sometimes now you're even more tired.

00:37:35.200 Exactly. So this maybe I'd wake up. Maybe I wouldn't.

00:37:38.480 But eventually sort of come to and I would have to roll out of bed, literally.

00:37:43.120 OK, to wake myself, I had to force myself to fall off the bed.

00:37:47.240 You see what I'm saying? So a hard thought on the ground would help the process.

00:37:50.300 And then I remember specifically in New York stumbling down to the.

00:37:55.140 Well, first, I'd see the roommate on the way out and they'd go, oh, my God, I guess you didn't go to work today.

00:37:59.360 And I would start to plan my email to the ad agency and there were so many issues.

00:38:05.980 And it was like, you know, it was like the period of depression and and related issues.

00:38:10.440 Right. And the effect on things like not going to work.

00:38:14.200 You go through the phase or I went through the phase of, you know, long apologies, explaining, trying to explain the whole thing.

00:38:22.380 And then you move past that where you're just like and you just get to this point of just like, OK, all I can do is apologize for my behavior.

00:38:29.360 and the effects it caused, and let the chips fall where they may.

00:38:32.980 Right?

00:38:33.220 It was almost just like this sort of like, I'd be like, so I slept through work.

00:38:37.540 Obviously, I was not there.

00:38:38.560 You noticed.

00:38:39.240 Okay?

00:38:39.620 And then I'd like take out obviously.

00:38:41.040 It's like, what?

00:38:41.660 You know?

00:38:42.060 Right, right, right.

00:38:42.900 It's like, I slept for 27 hours.

00:38:45.900 I'm sorry.

00:38:47.420 I plan to be in tomorrow.

00:38:49.220 Okay?

00:38:50.060 And then it would make it harder to go back because I felt ashamed.

00:38:53.020 But anyway.

00:38:53.360 Right, right.

00:38:53.800 Anyway.

00:38:54.160 Also, sleeping through your alarm is one thing.

00:38:56.020 Being like, oh, my God, I just woke up.

00:38:57.440 But sleeping through the whole day.

00:38:58.700 Yeah. 0.99

00:38:58.900 I mean, there was, and I'm working on it with a physician, you know, like this kind of shit. 0.99

00:39:03.740 It's exhausting, right? 0.98

00:39:05.240 So, so, but yeah, the 27 hours where I'd stumble downstairs, I remember going to the store

00:39:10.340 on the corner and, and vitamin water.

00:39:12.240 So I'd wake up with this kind of thirst that could only be quenched by sugary drinks.

00:39:15.860 Okay.

00:39:16.560 And I would, I would pound two vitamin water, like, you know, vitamin water launch.

00:39:21.480 When was that?

00:39:22.100 Cause I feel like I, such a clear, when was that moment in like health and wellness?

00:39:26.560 because that's like right before because it was the wellness industry wasn't right but it was like

00:39:31.520 there's vitamins in it and it's like sleep recharge energy beauty right it was all of them

00:39:36.080 but then it's all just laced with you know cyanide i remember in a in a corner store in new york me

00:39:41.800 staring at a vitamin waters ingredients and and a man going by it's pure sugar

00:39:46.740 it's very like but but the labeling was genius because it had that kind of medical

00:39:54.240 yes the color block slash yes it reminds me of Moby's music I feel like Moby dropped an album

00:40:00.280 right when vitamin water came out or something like yes why do I disassociate with Moby and

00:40:04.580 vitamin water well no I think I think you're actually right

00:40:07.280 speaking of death sleep I do want to tell you about the sleep doctor so I would have these

00:40:20.860 you know these sleep attacks where yes i would i would sort of come to for a second but immediately

00:40:25.020 be plunged back into the depths and you know it was obviously quite destructive um yeah to my

00:40:31.060 lifestyle and uh or my life or my job gainful employment and so i did set up and part of this

00:40:37.120 was almost me being like okay so you know how i slept through work again like i am going to this

00:40:42.360 doctor to i'm going to the sleep specialist at cornell you know whatever and i go and this was

00:40:50.320 a disaster i i overslept okay trying to go to the sleep clinic okay and woke up at like 4 p.m

00:40:55.880 and i was due there at like 4 30 to sleep there all night yes yeah and so i arrive bright-eyed

00:41:02.400 and bushy-tailed okay to be observed for my hypersomnia it's so funny i'm saying like the

00:41:09.640 whole point is like come here at night you know you're tired you go to sleep almost like we see

00:41:13.800 how long you sleep for you know what i mean that kind of thing and i'm like 4 p.m i'm so i'm

00:41:17.880 extremely well rested, right? 4 p.m. I wake up, I run there, I get there. I'm like, I just,

00:41:23.440 I've been sleeping up until like 10 minutes ago. Like, so I don't know if this is going to be

00:41:26.380 effective. Okay. And they're like, well, you know, it's too late now. And they're putting

00:41:29.820 the electrodes on my head. They're like gluing them to my head with like paper mache. It's like

00:41:33.500 completely ridiculous. And then, and then I get in the bed, fall asleep, you know, sleep beautifully 0.80

00:41:37.700 for nine hours. Okay. After just sleeping for 13 or whatever. Right. Yeah. And there's like,

00:41:42.840 they're kind of like this. Yeah, no, you slept beautifully, you know, like, like a deep sleep

00:41:47.300 all night through and and i'm like you see that that's that's weird right like that after 13 hours

00:41:52.640 of sleep i was able to easily sleep another 12 and like my brain fully um went there so it was

00:41:59.900 it was it was um you know there was no apnea okay there was there wasn't much so what did they what

00:42:07.440 was that just a symptom of depression sorry no i spaced out i forgot so so i meet with the the

00:42:13.000 woman at after this, the head doctor, the head researcher or whatever. And, you know, you dream

00:42:18.720 of when you meet with a specialist, right? You dream of them telling you you're special. You

00:42:22.700 dream of them telling you something curious about you and you alone. Yeah, you would be the subject

00:42:29.320 and the desire for something to be wrong, you know, that whole thing. And it's like she did

00:42:34.420 kind of appeal to my ego in this particular way, which what she said is, do you suffer migraine?

00:42:39.280 like have you ever or have you ever had what's the thing that where they scan your brain MRI I

00:42:44.500 don't know where they scan your brain and can see the lesions or whatever that migraine leaves no

00:42:48.420 this is like they look like scars like your brain is scarred by the migraine right so so she says

00:42:53.880 you know do you suffer migraine and I go no I mean I don't not really because I don't know because I

00:42:59.300 know my mother does horribly my sister does horribly so and I'm not having what they have

00:43:03.180 I have headaches and stuff and she goes well the one other person who had the same thing as you

00:43:09.020 have with this bizarre these sleep attacks where there's no nothing else seems to be wrong when we

00:43:14.900 did an MRI or whatever of her I said oh you suffer migraine I can see it on your scan right and she

00:43:21.720 said no okay she said no I know what you're talking about and the the discovery or theory

00:43:28.280 was that she was suffering migraines without the headache no pain because technically headache is

00:43:34.660 a symptom of migraine which is a thing happening in the brain have you had because i've had

00:43:39.420 migraines that were like rarely where there's no pain but i can just feel that i'm having it

00:43:44.140 like i feel like kind of a weird body feeling right well so so she thought that perhaps i mean

00:43:50.940 it makes sense my mother my sister you know both have horrible migraines it would make sense that

00:43:55.560 possibly i have the the migraine happening and you know and it did feel almost like a thing that

00:44:01.540 obviously stress and and other kinds of things were would cause that's why it also was like or 0.56

00:44:07.040 am i just an asshole who like whose brain shuts down because i don't want to go to work you know 0.96

00:44:11.100 what i mean like so there was all this kind of the self-hatred embedded in that but anyway i 0.99

00:44:15.040 thought it was a very intriguing theory obviously i'm dying for a scan now always dying for a scan 0.72

00:44:20.080 get me a scan i mean anyway isn't that fascinating i thought it was pretty fucking the sleep spells

00:44:24.960 that just stopped oh so yeah i was fired from the ad agency more or less they got they got to a 0.78

00:44:30.500 point where we quote reached an impasse okay i had stopped coming in i had put in a i put in a thing

00:44:36.360 saying like i wrote up this letter saying trying to say i'd like to work from home from now on

00:44:42.000 um and they allowed that for some time but then i started missing deadlines you know i was trying

00:44:46.880 to pursue stand with comedy um whatever we reached an impasse i i moved back to the suburbs i did

00:44:54.400 kundalini yoga for a year and meditated and and shortly after i met you got got into all that

00:44:59.680 kind of stuff and basically i i took away the stresses and then built life anew and i basically

00:45:06.420 don't really have the sleep attacks anymore i mean it's like i i removed the stressor the

00:45:10.660 stressor being what well i found gigs that could support me that were remote and on my own time

00:45:15.820 you know like and i remember this doctor um because at the same time i got a battery of

00:45:23.280 psychological tests as they call this projective and objective or whatever i was gonna say

00:45:28.180 psychological testing literally rorschachs have you gotten a rorschach ever formally because yes

00:45:32.800 as a kid in your in your learning whatever days because sex sex because it was like no right right

00:45:40.060 i was like i very distinctly i was like well i mean am i supposed to not acknowledge that they're

00:45:44.480 all literally vaginal because they're all a imprint that's been symmetry completely yeah

00:45:50.260 symmetry is going to like they're all vaginal right it's a vagina but it's also every time

00:45:54.960 and then say that it looks like a wolf in a chair right and so i i over explained every single one

00:45:59.840 you know like i went out for 10 minutes whatever whatever battery of tests whatever i can't remember

00:46:03.760 why i brought it up oh yeah the clinician was like first of all she said after my whole brain

00:46:10.520 profile after she figured it all out and did the study she goes like first of all i'm i'm uh pretty

00:46:15.400 blown away that you are not a major drug addict she said that like the specifics of my brain

00:46:21.520 including the add the combination of the various things right she's like this is drug addict

00:46:25.560 like you know and i was like well i think i avoided it because i got on antidepressants

00:46:31.060 early enough and so i and i was so miserable and depressed that i felt like i wasn't going

00:46:35.320 to fuck around with drugs really because i was trying to but anyway i loved that can you imagine 0.94

00:46:39.720 isn't that fantastic you should be a terrific drug addict you should be like i'm surprised you're not 0.98

00:46:44.260 wow well thank god you were able to avoid that you know it's all people always want to hear 0.85

00:46:48.640 about your clinic initiatory experiences and i think i think you'd be curious to know about

00:46:53.120 the battery of tests uh you know it's impossible to say for me to say whether or not any of that

00:46:57.640 was interesting because of course deeply captivating to me i want to talk about all

00:47:01.040 my all my childhood testing and all the learning disability and the tutors and the all of it um

00:47:07.500 anyway okay well and i just wanted to say you know actually i don't know i was gonna i don't

00:47:13.240 know i'm feeling some shame about dragging on about my my you know oh me and the advertising

00:47:18.560 agent who cares whatever feel no shame i feel extraordinary shame for some of the things i've

00:47:22.100 said today but guess what there's no shame here okay it's fine that was poog if you enjoyed poog

00:47:32.060 please subscribe rate and review if not we will press charges

Poog with Kate Berlant and Jacqueline Novak - September 01, 2026

REMIX： The Unconscious Hours

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