Poog with Kate Berlant and Jacqueline Novak - The Thought That Counts

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:02.580 Guaranteed human.

00:00:04.420 This is Ryder Strong, and I have a new podcast called The Red Weather.

00:00:08.020 In 1995, my neighbor, Anna Traynor, disappeared from a commune.

00:00:11.960 It was nature and trees and praying and drugs.

00:00:15.780 No, I am not your guru.

00:00:19.420 Back then, I lied to everybody.

00:00:21.720 They have had this case for 30 years.

00:00:24.660 I'm going back to my hometown to uncover the truth.

00:00:27.320 Listen to The Red Weather on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:00:57.320 Chase Matthew.

00:00:58.440 Listen and subscribe on the iHeartRadio app,

00:01:00.880 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:01:04.880 Hello, it's me, Anna Sinfield, the host of The Girlfriends.

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00:01:23.480 I'm not too intimidated by her.

00:01:24.900 What are you talking about?

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00:02:08.720 Hi, I'm Kate Berlant.

00:02:10.160 I'm Jacqueline Novak.

00:02:11.260 And this is POOG, an ongoing conversation about wellness between two obsessive friends.

00:02:16.040 Two untamable intellects.

00:02:17.780 This is our hobby. 0.97

00:02:18.620 This is our hell.

00:02:19.480 This is our naked desire for free products.

00:02:21.740 This is POOG.

00:02:22.960 Today's topic, loosely speaking, Butterfly Wing.

00:02:26.740 Thank you.

00:02:27.940 Humor.

00:02:33.360 That's my clap in case that's useful.

00:02:35.680 Okay, so obviously there's background noise.

00:02:37.380 We are traveling.

00:02:39.600 I have been at the Vodafone store all day.

00:02:43.100 I just had a mental breakdown trying to set up the technical part of my recording.

00:02:48.960 I'm actually, what's so devastating is I was in a really good mood

00:02:51.920 And then the technological defeat that I felt made me want to get knocked up by someone I hate and just move to the suburbs and hurt people for a living.

00:03:07.620 Did you say get knocked up?

00:03:09.000 Yeah.

00:03:11.420 It made me want to create a terrible life for myself.

00:03:15.800 Yeah.

00:03:17.040 Sounds wonderful.

00:03:19.080 And I was in such a good mood.

00:03:21.780 okay i'm gonna get the mood back i um yeah and so hopefully so yeah so we apologize for any i can

00:03:28.620 hear the background noise i think is that italy it's incredible yes but what can we say this is

00:03:34.200 the world that we're in i'm i'm in new york i also became upset because there's construction and the

00:03:39.440 sound and the smell of toxic pavement mixed with what i can only imagine is formaldehyde or

00:03:44.620 something that will shorten my lifespan instantly is wafting into the apartment in such a shocking

00:03:49.200 way that i'm that i'm instantly poisoned but anyway but who cares it's fine you're fine you're

00:03:55.260 fine the good news is so i want to just start right in and say you know what i did last night

00:03:58.860 for the first time why i watched keeping up with the kardashians so imagine this so i've been never

00:04:06.760 seen it i think i've seen an episode i think i saw like six frames of it yeah in like when it

00:04:13.500 started and then just never returned so i as you know doing my show sundays are my nights my

00:04:21.600 it's my only night off i last night got some gorgeous takeout i brought it home i thought

00:04:27.920 i'm just gonna eat this it was great it was great and then i get into bed i mean i was like squealing

00:04:32.440 with delight uh this is supposed to be a negative story okay no no this is great no this is great

00:04:37.400 it's a positive story and then i went to hulu and i was like oh what do i want and there it is

00:04:42.900 the kardashians and it's i guess season one meaning because they switched over to hulu after

00:04:47.800 years on e can you imagine i was imagining them calling like the agents calling e being like it's

00:04:53.600 over you know they're like hulu gave us an offer we can't refuse you have to match it and he's like

00:04:59.800 we can't and they're like thank you for everything but we're leaving anyway i go i'll click on it

00:05:04.860 do you think it was the agent like who was it how's business done on that level i know probably

00:05:10.980 it just seems like like i don't know it's like embassy is communicating like it's like a

00:05:15.640 piece of china like and i don't mean like i know a teacup i mean like just something no you mean

00:05:21.160 like like land mass no it's it's any kind of property like that anyway so i click on it

00:05:28.380 thinking i'll probably dip in here for two minutes four hours i watched for four hours

00:05:34.200 unbroken i watched four episodes when i tell you i was crying what when i started crying is

00:05:43.400 too strong a word but welling up and trying not to cry because i was like i want to be puffy in

00:05:48.140 the morning were you moved by travis can i guess okay go okay when travis barker asked for courtney's

00:05:56.300 hand in marriage i began to cry and to be clear it wasn't even him it was him on a phone call so

00:06:03.140 I'm looking at Chris and Chloe in the back of an Escalade after Chris has like reprimanded the

00:06:07.780 driver for not closing the trunk. No. And I'm absolutely emotional. So he asks for the hand

00:06:15.840 of marriage on speakerphone or on cell phone? No, no, no. So what it is, he already, I guess he in

00:06:21.360 person asked for the hand, but then he calls to be like, I'm planning the engagement and I want

00:06:25.860 you to be in on it. I want the family to be in on it. Surprise engagement for Courtney.

00:06:29.260 I begin to become emotional and then I find myself in moments you know and then 20 minutes later I'm

00:06:34.820 laughing and then I'm I'm agreeing I'm going mm-hmm I'm I'm out loud oh yeah I'm like well

00:06:39.880 there it is I'm agreeing with it for loud is heaven for hours may I break in yeah please

00:06:47.020 to say one time I allowed did that thing and I think eating helps I think there's something about

00:06:51.780 I wasn't eating during it I wasn't eating during it I was in bed well then I was so I was so

00:06:57.980 captivated i wasn't even texting i had my i was texting occasionally a friend to be like

00:07:02.100 this is incredible like four hours have passed like but i was captivated what friend

00:07:08.220 uh molly another friend um one time while watching the biggest loser while eating

00:07:17.420 like i think me and my friend would get these i think we get two large pizzas i don't know but

00:07:22.840 we're sitting there eating pizza on the floor watching biggest loser like one of the great

00:07:26.460 shows that I cry at all the time and I just like at while reaching for a slice literally like

00:07:32.980 shaking my head going she's not gonna get her burn in like like she wasn't gonna get the burn

00:07:37.960 she needed like her calorie burn her numbers like I could see that like it was when they go home for 0.52

00:07:42.720 the final week to do it alone on their own and just a week you can all go away in a week oh no

00:07:48.540 maybe it's like maybe it's like I can't remember maybe it's two months I forget but the last

00:07:51.940 portion of it is like you're no longer in the ranch now you go home and then everyone comes

00:07:55.780 back and gets weighed again at the end okay now some people go home you see them in the gym 0.57

00:08:00.820 okay going fucking crazy others you see at home you know preparing no not full relapse this is 0.65

00:08:08.340 what's so brutal it's like they're like they're like taking the stairs you know what i'm saying 0.96

00:08:12.760 they're like they're like yeah we're going on a hike and i'm like strap on that monitor because

00:08:17.960 i mean you're in a competition for what a hundred thousand dollars i mean and i'm just like i was

00:08:24.660 like she's not gonna like but like literally like reaching for pizza like i was just like

00:08:27.680 like catching the catching the narrow end of the pizza like like being like and just like with utter

00:08:33.180 lack of like just yeah yeah wasn't even that lack of self-awareness like like someone be like how

00:08:37.700 could you like i don't know what like i'm like no like yeah that person's in a competition

00:08:42.240 competition involving calorie burn i'm not like so i see no irony here in me

00:08:46.800 jawing on pizza while saying she's never going to get her burning because she's like i'm being

00:08:50.340 neutral about it yeah the fact of the show yeah but anyway it's just like I I was I mean again

00:08:59.220 four hours that's all you have to me no I mean I mean that's that's exciting I I'm intrigued I

00:09:06.060 also haven't watched the show and had the urge this morning to turn it on again this morning I

00:09:11.220 woke up I'm sure you do it was a thing where I opened up my laptop and it started playing because

00:09:15.600 i was like i was like i told myself i'd be asleep by one so i said you're stopping now at one right

00:09:21.820 see and yeah and you just slammed your laptop closed because i don't know if we've talked about

00:09:26.540 this on uh on poog sorry some mopeds are going by um but characters in tv shows especially like

00:09:37.400 teenagers okay we'll be doing something crazy on their computer or whatever or a full conversation

00:09:42.820 they just they just close it on their bed and uh you know and then the parent comes in and i'm like

00:09:48.340 you've just created a much riskier thing which is now like anywhere in any time that your computer

00:09:53.680 is opened the porn just begins playing yeah yeah or like whatever and so there's something so

00:10:00.220 beautiful if there's something really sci-fi and mystical you close the computer and it stops

00:10:05.500 it's like magical to me like i opened up my computer and i heard chris jenner talking

00:10:11.740 it's like very like she was in there all night the computer opened the jaw waiting to speak again

00:10:17.460 yeah no right the computer opened its own mouth kind of like well what is the significance of

00:10:23.460 the shape of the computer i mean the laptop of the v you know what is it the clamshell and it's

00:10:29.300 traditional form it's yeah it's greater than 90 in its traditional form sitting like sitting right

00:10:35.820 most people don't have it tipped in right most people have it slightly more open than 90 degrees

00:10:40.020 do you see what i'm saying right right so it's um like an obtuse angle right it is obtuse yeah

00:10:46.740 yeah um it's definitely not a tooth don't be obtuse you know it's always been a little bit

00:10:54.100 like are you like what's happening what's the connection between the word obtuse and the

00:10:59.380 meaning socially i can i do a complete i know yeah i don't know too much excess of i almost

00:11:07.060 think it's like you're something yeah you're going so you're going so wide of what's accurate

00:11:11.800 that it's yeah all right go on i feel your disinterest no no you actually stopped yourself

00:11:19.200 you stopped yourself from expressing it i saw it and and tried to go no no i stopped i stopped

00:11:23.880 myself from interrupting with something else but i'm not exactly but that's okay i interrupted in

00:11:29.620 the first place well did i i don't know but i just want to take a minute with the angle of the

00:11:33.880 computer yeah yeah please do please think we we like it's weird that the computer the laptop can

00:11:40.000 exist at so many angles infinite angles it's true well you you could yeah and yet i mean it can only

00:11:47.060 go i push it to its limits i push it to whatever that is i mean well of course there are the new

00:11:53.220 ones that can go 180 okay okay we fold back on the classic laptop you know they flip over and

00:11:59.900 they become a tablet oh sure they break the classic laptop is like is like a 95 degree

00:12:06.380 angle yeah and it's just interesting that i don't know that it's just an angle we know

00:12:14.380 if someone drew it at the wrong angle you'd know they were an alien like an inglorious 0.71

00:12:18.820 bastards culturally like when he oh yeah asked for three drinks it's a great brutal great scene 0.97

00:12:25.200 great scene how do you even write a scene god i know what about a circular laptop 0.97

00:12:32.260 what about a circle never mind like a compact mirror compact mirror yeah

00:12:38.460 yeah yeah but then i was like oh the letters you know

00:12:41.320 this is writer strong and i have a new podcast called the red weather it was many and many a

00:12:51.620 year ago in a kingdom by the sea in 1995 my neighbor anna trainer disappeared from a commune

00:12:58.340 it was hard to wrap your head around it was nature and trees and praying and drugs so no i am not

00:13:04.760 your guru and back then i lied to my parents i lied to police i lied to everybody there were

00:13:12.380 years right where i could not say your name i've decided to go back to my hometown in northern

00:13:16.920 California, interview my friends, family, talk to police, journalists, whomever I can to try to find

00:13:22.160 out what actually happened. Isn't it a little bit weird that they obsess over hippies in the woods

00:13:26.780 and not the obvious boyfriend? They have had this case for 30 years. I'll teach you sons of

00:13:32.440 to come around here and my wife. Boom, boom. This is The Red Weather. Listen to The Red Weather 1.00

00:13:39.920 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:13:46.920 Chats with the coolest cat in country

00:13:48.920 music. He is edgy. He's fun.

00:13:51.360 He is Chase Matthew.

00:13:52.860 Keith Urban helped make him a global sensation

00:13:54.840 last year, but it's his recent number one

00:13:56.840 hit, Darling, that put Chase on the map

00:13:58.620 and launched a fun and difficult

00:14:01.000 conversation about lovers who cheat

00:14:03.020 and lie. That's why I'm scared to get married. 0.53

00:14:05.220 You're giving me trust issues, brother.

00:14:06.780 Crook and Chase Nashville Chats with Chase Matthew.

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00:14:13.260 you listen to podcasts.

00:14:14.540 hello it's me anna sinfield from the girlfriends the number one hit true crime show that puts

00:14:22.460 women right in the center of their own stories i'm back with more one-off interviews with some

00:14:28.840 truly kick-ass women on the girlfriends spotlight i want to introduce you to sylvia i'm going to 1.00

00:14:36.380 And then there's Vassaka. 0.58

00:14:44.140 Leila dared to ask the question.

00:14:48.680 And finally, we'll meet Rosamund.

00:14:56.660 You'll even get to meet my mum in that one,

00:14:58.300 who I can always count on to keep my feet on the ground.

00:15:01.340 I'm not too intimidated by her.

00:15:02.740 What are you talking about? 1.00

00:15:03.700 Listen to the Girlfriend Spotlight on the iHeartRadio app, 1.00

00:15:09.120 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:15:17.380 Okay, can I do a hard pivot?

00:15:22.760 Always.

00:15:24.280 Two things.

00:15:25.580 A, I'm here to...

00:15:26.920 Oh.

00:15:28.580 Is it the thought that counts?

00:15:31.260 Okay, so...

00:15:32.860 Nope.

00:15:33.700 and by the way and by the way it varies by the way is it that counts here we go folks

00:15:39.900 here's here counts for what okay is it thought that counts it counts but it it it most likely

00:15:47.760 doesn't count it's it's 30 cents not 80 cents now yeah so well let's i mean the thought that

00:15:57.160 counts on like i here's what do you do idea i thought about getting you but i was unable to

00:16:01.420 do it but I still want you to know because I had this genius idea that I think you'll still 0.98

00:16:04.620 appreciate tell me no I'm saying that I'm saying that's what I say to you like oh fuck I got I 0.95

00:16:11.900 believed you okay like I told you for example on your birthday that there was a hunt for trying to 0.96

00:16:19.160 send a cocktail up to your room that panned out to nothing okay and all you got me in was a text

00:16:23.720 but I still thought you'd enjoy the imagery it counted for something you enjoy the imagery

00:16:28.740 something yes can it stand up to any gesture that was actual that someone else made you know

00:16:36.120 i mean i'm so see my problem is like i am so like

00:16:41.420 i divorced from physical reality value at times okay that leads me to think like

00:16:48.180 i require nothing and therefore i don't know obviously there was a trigger do you want to

00:16:56.760 speak of it what do you mean for me and saying that yeah or did you know was that in your notes

00:17:03.540 was that no no so i'm struggling so gift giving and again it's not even halloween it's not that

00:17:10.340 christmas is here but let's face it it's here yeah i'm just no i mean so okay so here's what

00:17:18.060 you give people when you don't know them intimately right to say thank you or something booze flowers

00:17:24.120 what else wait are you asking are you are you admonishing what do you no no sorry it sounds

00:17:33.120 like i'm admonishing because i'm in a bad mood because i'm so hungry are you looking for how do

00:17:39.000 you what are you talking about you're in a position where you feel you need to send out some

00:17:43.640 thank you type gifts and you're wondering what can i do well here's the thought that counts thing so

00:17:49.660 here's a nice so listen i think it is nice a thank you card here's some flower here are some

00:17:56.220 flowers here's a nice bottle of tequila right it's like great done yeah of course why what's

00:18:02.060 what's the problem you don't think so that's not actually the thought that is a gift that's beyond 1.00

00:18:06.460 the thought that counts you're a literal fool you're a damned fool okay i was about to make 1.00

00:18:11.340 the argument that that i thought you were just saying like well a card a card is not a thought 1.00

00:18:15.980 a card is a is a card i would go so far as to say a text is not a thought a text is a text

00:18:21.860 i think what you're really asking is size is the gift that matters okay or you know no no exactly

00:18:28.800 and it's because i was arguing that a text is more than a thought a text is like and that's

00:18:34.720 why you say i got a text from someone it's an object that flew through you know the air and

00:18:38.980 and and and is you know um uh what's the word i'm looking for you know like it's not ineffable

00:18:48.640 it's it's inscribed something happens something's written somewhere the card is huge like how many 0.52

00:18:56.640 of you succeeded in in writing and and getting getting your ass together to write and send out

00:19:02.520 in life i mean i mean it's it's involved i mean unless you have your little you know the dream

00:19:07.580 the fantasy of the you know the correspondence desk in a little nook a little table where you

00:19:14.180 have your pens and you know what's and you know what's so exciting about when you actually when

00:19:18.700 you do so so I once was so proud of myself I got stationary with my name printed on it you know

00:19:25.100 beautiful all of that um okay and I I was invited to a friend's family's house for Yom Kippur this

00:19:38.520 is years ago um or was it Rosh Hashanah whatever and you brought a side of ham yeah no I went it

00:19:47.560 was lovely it was beautiful it was intimate it was a really special night okay I said you know

00:19:52.220 what i'm gonna fucking do i'm gonna write a thank you note to her parents you're gonna self-actualize

00:19:57.000 and write a thing i'm gonna send they're gonna be going through the mail and they're gonna go 0.96

00:20:00.320 what's this and it's going to be a handwritten thank you note beautiful from me and they're

00:20:07.420 going to be buried with it because they're gonna be moved by the sentimentality and the respect of

00:20:12.820 the old world yeah the old world the old world through coming back into the future or minor

00:20:19.320 coming through the present yeah okay i do it i write the letter i reread it i'm like this is

00:20:27.220 impeccable yeah the curse i'm doing cursive it's heaven like you hadn't done in 15 20 years

00:20:33.840 guess what the letter sent it never arrived i sent it and that now and that paralyzed me for years

00:20:46.100 well hold on because i mean this the doubt zone in the in the post office and you know what i hate

00:20:52.440 to say i i'm i'm like i feel myself wondering if it's user error what do you mean are you sure

00:21:03.780 you mailed it a thousand percent because it was even like a whole thing of me putting it in the

00:21:11.200 well it would have to be yay wait you put it in your mailbox is that what you said well not in

00:21:16.340 my i took it to the i put it in a real mailbox okay now was it the right kind of mailbox and

00:21:23.560 are you sure it wasn't a trash no everything was right everything was right did you seek help at

00:21:28.100 the place or was it some corner where it could have been one of those scams you know it was a

00:21:32.880 real no you know you don't know what happened i know i did and and by the way and my friend was

00:21:37.340 like maybe they did get it but like like something happened I don't know but it was so devastating

00:21:44.020 wait I have a question oh and I never told them I never told the parents like I wish I you know

00:21:50.180 I never was like because by the way then I saw them again at her wedding at her wedding hey by

00:21:55.080 the way yeah remember last year I sent you a thank you note but it never arrived that's a 1.00

00:21:59.540 moment and they go oh that's amazing that's so sweet of you liar bitch incompetent fool 1.00

00:22:07.260 what'd you do wrong well no you know what the real issue is right is the moment that you 1.00

00:22:14.280 trying to get credit trying to get thanks that are you doing something yeah hang on oh wait

00:22:20.600 oh wait keep going trying to do credit go the ultimate act that cannot be is to is to see the

00:22:31.840 moment that you seek out credit for a thank you note you have done more than just neutralize the

00:22:37.780 thank you note you've actually gone into debt i believe okay so if you if you uh so in other words

00:22:47.680 you so thank you notes can only be left to the hand of god okay okay because okay once you send

00:22:56.200 it that's it you do not get to seek out whether or not and by the way a thank you note should

00:23:01.940 first of all not require a thank you in return thank you for your thank you no no no no no never

00:23:09.580 okay never and so i mean is it ever acknowledged unless it's stunning okay unless it's so stunning

00:23:15.440 and there's a massive reveal okay then your thank you note was so beautiful thank you

00:23:21.420 it makes total sense right but yes yes but there's there's a there's a point where you sacrifice

00:23:28.700 i mean you also you know what else you got to be careful with not i mean the the dynamic of

00:23:35.360 did you get my gift i mean i basically believe oh god unless it's a very close friend okay with

00:23:43.720 whom you know this kind of conversation is very whatever you really don't get to ask it or it

00:23:49.680 wasn't a gift oh my god it's true it's really true it's true was it a gift or was it a transactional

00:23:57.160 again or was it it was it a was it it were you paying for my gratitude that you expected to be

00:24:03.240 demonstrated and when that didn't happen don't give a gift you're not when the gift is willing

00:24:10.900 to be unthanked for a gift is a threat of your dear life it's hostage for thank yous what do

00:24:19.020 you think is an appropriate let's just say you're staying let's just say you're staying at someone's

00:24:24.800 place let's just imagine you're staying at someone's place okay i just did this and gave

00:24:29.000 no gift okay but where where in italy no remember two nights in um in new york no i'm not talking

00:24:37.440 about two nights i'm not talking about two nights oh right i'm talking about a week i'm talking

00:24:41.860 about once you've crossed the four night threshold the three night threshold okay yeah once you've

00:24:48.080 passed into a week, two weeks, what do you leave? Well, again, I'll say it depends on the

00:24:58.220 relationship. I'll tell you what you leave. You leave a note, you leave a bottle and you leave

00:25:03.540 and you leave. OK, so here's where me or my inner cheapskate really. I knew this is where it was

00:25:10.980 coming. Here's my note. And it's starting to get pissed about the cost of the bottle. That's that's

00:25:16.100 not it what it is for me is so i bought someone i bought two people a diptyke candle as a way of

00:25:25.080 saying thank you okay so to me that is like that was a huge step for me okay and it was a huge step

00:25:33.820 they're like 75 to 100 shit no they're like 75 to the cheapest one is 75 and then they have ones

00:25:40.820 that are a hundred and then of course oh my god interesting i i bought my only interest 0.98

00:25:47.380 oh if i'm gonna no i know i'm gonna over if i'm gonna do something fucked up those are what like 0.76

00:25:55.180 150 or something i actually can't remember but i bought it with like as like a hostage to myself 0.82

00:26:01.300 as that was going to be this like candle with which i did like my yoga next to and i did so

00:26:06.200 in that way i paid off that candle every day i lit that candle the carmelite candle like while

00:26:12.660 doing my yoga yeah yeah my yoga my yoga it's mine my yoga okay so you've got that for two people

00:26:22.180 and now what's the inner tips get you're going well i can't i can't do that for everybody

00:26:25.920 that yeah yeah yeah i go 75 a pop that's a well because i'm 75 i go well what's a gift

00:26:32.680 oh this is all useless who could listen to this drivel um everyone is on the edge of their seat

00:26:39.600 this is actually deeply compelling and i'm like i'm like i'm like lifting up out of my seat okay 0.91

00:26:44.140 so i bought wanting to talk about this for 10 hours give me more and then i'll respond give me

00:26:48.120 more well you know it actually does feel good dollar amount on it it does feel good to give

00:26:53.480 because listen i'll just say this i gift i gave someone a gift recently that was more my i spent

00:26:59.120 more money on a gift for someone than I've ever spent for something for myself okay so who's

00:27:05.100 now yeah you know I'm like yeah I didn't give you I know I didn't give you what you wanted

00:27:13.360 because like the paradox of it like like almost like escaped me in some way because I'm like

00:27:20.480 yeah technically that sounds like a thing but also you can imagine like you know buying your

00:27:28.720 mother a house before you buy yourself a house right like there's a way in which I don't know

00:27:34.560 there's a way in which that absolutely but anyway anyway no okay okay so um so I I fucking yes so 0.76

00:27:45.680 and that felt great and there was something that and I was like okay I could get used to this I

00:27:50.460 was like so so for example ephemeral gifts gift giving yeah yeah like extravagantly or I don't

00:27:57.160 know about extra okay I got someone it's not just someone it's my mother okay it's her birthday I

00:28:03.320 was out of town yes I sent gorgeous flowers and I also sent because I know she loves this I sent

00:28:08.860 her like a huge amount of fun multicolored balloons yes okay she cried she told me okay

00:28:17.760 because it was so fun yes and unexpected yes so that's a gift that is flowers are ephemeral

00:28:24.480 balloons are ephemeral right like ephemerality is not a problem in a gift no no agreed so i guess

00:28:33.740 my question to you is would you okay here's just a question for you yeah would you rather receive

00:28:37.860 150 worth of a scented candle or flowers well if you're i mean i i hate that this answer is as

00:28:50.220 simple as it is but it really depends on if you're a scented candle like like user i know i know it's

00:28:55.540 kind of like asking like would you rather 150 dollars worth of cigarettes or you know and it's

00:29:01.320 like it's like the it you know it depends on the person like i think if you have some if you have

00:29:07.260 some if you have some uh scented candle lover who doesn't get nice things for themselves okay and

00:29:13.160 you can you can spring one on them okay okay that that might be very exciting right i mean yeah i

00:29:20.080 mean i hate to say that you know it's a case by case but it is so exhausting having using like

00:29:26.960 17 syllables that aren't your own so like it's a let's see it's a case by kit it's on a case by

00:29:33.720 case basis that's like a good eight syllables yeah that are like not my own i'm just repeating

00:29:40.100 a little tune you know what i mean i just i hate it like it's not a case by case this is the soul

00:29:44.940 is gone the regurgitation of culture um so wait let me take a second with this i'm gonna i'm

00:29:53.560 we're gonna talk about three get your gift given game ready to go okay great i'm excited one

00:29:58.740 one yes okay if you well first of all one you don't have to do things evenly at all so let that

00:30:07.280 go okay it isn't i got them this and i got them this you could be broke on tuesday and rich on 0.83

00:30:12.600 wednesday you know what i mean so who fucking cares there's no rules there you know the only 0.81

00:30:19.240 time that sort of comparison happens by virtue of whatever is on the holidays when people do a mass 0.85

00:30:26.220 gifting if if they do and i don't even know if people do that anymore and they do it in movies

00:30:30.040 in the 80s you know like in scrooge yeah his secretary is going through you know the people

00:30:35.780 in his Rolodex, deciding whether to give him a towel or a VCR.

00:30:40.400 He's like, mm, towel.

00:30:43.200 Oh, yeah. 0.96

00:30:44.400 He's her. 1.00

00:30:44.900 And he's like, towel.

00:30:46.000 And then they get to his brother.

00:30:46.980 He's like, towel. 0.99

00:30:51.180 Are you there? 0.67

00:30:51.940 Am I frozen?

00:30:53.240 Okay.

00:30:53.640 No, no, I heard you.

00:30:54.440 I heard you.

00:31:01.240 This is Ryder Strong, and I have a new podcast called The Red Weather.

00:31:04.620 It was many and many a year ago in a kingdom by the sea.

00:31:10.640 In 1995, my neighbor, Anna Trainor, disappeared from a commune.

00:31:14.400 It was hard to wrap your head around.

00:31:15.720 It was nature and trees and praying and drugs.

00:31:19.340 No, I am not your guru.

00:31:23.120 And back then, I lied to my parents.

00:31:25.760 I lied to police.

00:31:27.020 I lied to everybody.

00:31:28.000 There were years right where I could not say your name.

00:31:30.960 I've decided to go back to my hometown in Northern California,

00:31:33.400 to interview my friends, family, talk to police, journalists, whomever I can to try to find out

00:31:38.400 what actually happened. Isn't it a little bit weird that they obsess over hippies in the woods

00:31:42.740 and not the obvious boyfriend? They have had this case for 30 years. I'll teach you sons of

00:31:48.400 to come around here and my wife. Boom, boom. This is The Red Weather. Listen to The Red Weather 1.00

00:31:55.880 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:32:03.400 the coolest cat in country music.

00:32:05.500 He is edgy, he's fun, he is Chase Matthew.

00:32:08.800 Keith Urban helped make him a global sensation last year,

00:32:11.580 but it's his recent number one hit Darling

00:32:13.460 that put Chase on the map

00:32:14.580 and launched a fun and difficult conversation

00:32:17.640 about lovers who cheat and lie.

00:32:19.840 That's why I'm scared to get married.

00:32:21.180 You're giving me trust issues, brother.

00:32:22.740 Crook and Chase Nashville Chats with Chase Matthew.

00:32:25.160 Listen and subscribe on the iHeartRadio app,

00:32:27.920 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:32:30.500 hello it's me anna sinfield from the girlfriends the number one hit true crime show that puts women

00:32:38.780 right in the center of their own stories i'm back with more one-off interviews with some

00:32:44.800 truly kick-ass women on the girlfriends spotlight i want to introduce you to sylvia i'm going to 1.00

00:32:52.360 Klein this.

00:32:54.320 And then there's Vaisaka.

00:32:56.060 Let's see how we can stop killing and save lives.

00:33:00.160 Leila dared to ask the question.

00:33:02.620 Is badness hereditary?

00:33:04.660 And finally, we'll meet Rosamund.

00:33:06.800 If it wasn't for the year where Ella lived,

00:33:09.600 she wouldn't have died on that fatal night.

00:33:12.540 You'll even get to meet my mum in that one,

00:33:14.260 who I can always count on to keep my feet on the ground.

00:33:17.300 I'm not too intimidated by her.

00:33:18.720 What are you talking about? 1.00

00:33:19.680 Listen to The Girlfriend Spotlight on the iHeartRadio app, 1.00

00:33:25.080 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:33:36.740 God, like the lure of the 80s business,

00:33:39.920 the lure of the 80s business as like evident,

00:33:43.200 New York in the 80s business, like comedies.

00:33:47.920 I know.

00:33:48.680 the allure of that the allure I said lure lore the allure um you know it's allure magazine still

00:33:56.820 in circulation sorry to be disrespectful I mean unless unless it like unless there was a sudden

00:34:02.400 shutdown I mean I did you buy like I would reach magazines I would grab an allure like yeah like

00:34:08.600 I was so like yeah yeah what were your big Marie Claire do you remember what was what was the

00:34:13.520 shopping one Jane was it called Jane remember the little tabs gotta have it love it do you

00:34:18.320 remember this i i remember when no lucky lucky mag lucky mag was the shopping magazine i feel

00:34:23.600 like i remember when lucky mag came out is that possible like it was like yes i remember too

00:34:27.900 it was almost like kind of like i'm screaming like it's all ads and it's like well what what

00:34:32.720 did you think a magazine was before of course it's all an ad yeah yeah and sign me up uh as usual

00:34:38.640 sign me so lucky magazine had it was different it was all about shopping and then there was a little

00:34:46.400 insert there were stickers like post-its and it said oh you could and you could have your

00:34:51.780 which is a genius genius genius marketing okay marketing what is that it's just this is genius

00:34:58.440 pure excellence right it's um well it's it's added value jacqueline i'm laughing because i

00:35:04.500 i texted you the other day brick and mortar is dead because i was so here i am i have a couple

00:35:11.280 hours off i want to buy oh right and i want to buy some underwear some simple i like like the

00:35:17.580 kelvin klein sometimes you can get the classic for a little just classic okay classic i go i'm

00:35:22.840 gonna stroll down i'm gonna stroll you're gonna stroll down west broadway oh no no no yeah i'm

00:35:28.900 gonna go to street i'm really taking time with this to say where i went because i think i i went

00:35:34.800 to Bloomingdale's in Soho which I would anticipate would be well stocked well done

00:35:41.660 I got news for you sweetheart I know you know oh no I know no I go in there I'm excited I go oh

00:35:51.020 it's gonna be so great to browse the racks I get there hello greeted with a sallow expression

00:35:57.300 oh no but i i eventually i eventually have to find my way because no one wants to help me

00:36:06.580 i have to find my way to the fifth floor i get up i know that that horrible uh set of

00:36:12.240 there is well there's you know one person working the whole floor the i mean poor thing can you 0.87

00:36:19.660 imagine i mean it's insane and i i'll just cut to the fucking chase there were about two kinds 0.86

00:36:26.580 of socks there i go over to the socks there's one pair that's like you know 20 a pair and then 0.92

00:36:32.300 there's only one option that's like three for 20 there was i mean i was like i was like the and by

00:36:39.600 the way the sock area there was nothing i mean there was nothing and then i go oh i'm just looking

00:36:44.960 for for underwear just like really simple do you have the calvin kind of go oh the calvin

00:36:48.120 stuff's over there i go over there there's nothing it's either like some horrific rayon 0.97

00:36:54.400 fabric that would like your vagina would like become combust or whatever yeah combust after 1.00

00:37:01.440 four hours and that thing just like no like the most unbreathable like i'm like right who would 0.96

00:37:06.940 ever even want that it's just like if you're anyway there was nothing that's what i'm trying

00:37:12.400 to say there was nothing i left and then oh there was one pair that i liked and i was like

00:37:15.760 and there were and i said oh do you have this in a small she goes no i was like and that's it huh

00:37:24.380 i didn't say it to her but internally i was like yeah and it's over and and you know you're begging

00:37:29.940 me you're forcing me to go online you're forcing me yeah and they very well might be i i could

00:37:37.760 no no devastated okay i want to talk about this for a second because i was heartbroken so i i i

00:37:45.580 tried to create a rule for myself you know like you think every time you do this you feel bad

00:37:50.500 about it so you know i'm not going to do it next time remind me not to do this i have that with

00:37:55.520 going to bloomingdales in new york city both that location that you're describing and the classic

00:38:01.660 okay you go you know it's 1978 and i'm headed in a bloomys on the upper east or whatever yeah

00:38:09.400 okay and you go like i want to do it i've i've actually at points questioned this is also true

00:38:15.920 of the bed bath and beyond on 72nd and broadway if it's still there um columbus ish area one word

00:38:23.200 folks haunted okay but not not haunted with history not not haunted with a with a with a

00:38:30.520 sense of history this is this is a sort of a vacuum yes yes again there is a faceless there

00:38:39.700 there's any historical ghosts have been sort of sucked into a vacuum it's it's a we are clearly

00:38:48.100 in a period where what the department store was you got to think of this i mean you don't think

00:38:52.900 of it anyway but let's think of it this way okay department store right there was a time

00:38:57.240 where they were like we're gonna get all the good stuff and we're gonna put it in one place okay

00:39:02.400 and you're gonna get to come here and get everything you could possibly want the finest

00:39:06.720 in this and the finest in that you won't have to go to this little shop to get this okay you're

00:39:10.920 going to travel the world you're going to travel the world okay on a couple of floors okay in one

00:39:16.520 store the finest yes and and and so it was it was an aggregate right and and wow wow so it it was

00:39:25.980 the same as arguably what the internet stand for us oh god sorry i'm just i'm just imagining like

00:39:32.300 like like once again like quoted saying uninteresting things i haven't studied but like

00:39:37.580 but anyway so what that means is much like sir trudon okay so trudon okay the candle

00:39:46.480 company that i like the company that i've owned i got one years ago and then i got

00:39:52.640 one was given to me as a gift praying never recovered yeah you mean feels good i was stunned

00:39:59.940 no no someone brings that over you go wow well yeah that's that's this person was also the only

00:40:05.660 i i haven't there's there's one person i might get that candle for one day i'll explain it

00:40:11.200 later but i've been holding it as an idea i'll just say i love that my dear teacher i mean who

00:40:18.320 i do not know but remember carolyn mace we talk about like of course of course because she talks

00:40:25.160 about theresa of avila and then the carmelite nuns and all this kind of stuff and so i was like

00:40:29.380 oh I'll get Carolyn the Carmelite candle because that's and the scent is like you know

00:40:36.160 wet stone and and you can just practically hear the footsteps of the Carmelites like

00:40:40.920 like you know walking down whatever okay yeah so anyway I'm like I'll get that for my teacher 0.69

00:40:46.840 and also and by the way I just want to say I have just I've just decided I'm buying the diptyque for

00:40:51.440 the person in question continue okay no good I think let go by you know if why don't you say

00:41:00.900 this you were frugal for years now it's time to to enjoy the benefits of the frugality I mean

00:41:07.600 not to say you can't take it with you but yeah yeah it's time okay okay thank you okay continue

00:41:14.640 You know, and now it's time to roll down the hill.

00:41:18.000 And I want to say that small tokens of affection and appreciation do go a long way.

00:41:23.940 You absolutely do not need to be spending like dip tea, like something like that.

00:41:27.060 It's like that is like a money item.

00:41:29.200 Like that's like a like small little romantic.

00:41:33.320 A stuffed lemon, for example, toothpaste, a stuffed lemon, for example.

00:41:37.800 OK, Jacqueline's this is huge.

00:41:40.380 Jacqueline's parents came to my show.

00:41:42.620 When I tell you, I almost cried.

00:41:44.120 it was i love them so much it was there i could like i felt like they were so proud of me i felt

00:41:51.040 like they loved the show yes i was just like and your mother produces a stuffed lemon and i

00:41:59.240 i just couldn't believe it i just love them and i just said that i'm already like and i'm already

00:42:05.640 like planning on being in your home god yeah or just like yeah i'm gonna like i'm just i need

00:42:13.720 i need to actually travel with you home we could play in the basement i need to travel with you

00:42:18.420 home yes we could play in the basement we could play all sorts of games i i had this vision of

00:42:23.780 myself in like morning pajamas like drinking coffee like before you're awake with your parents

00:42:28.740 yes yes and kind of being like yeah well like i want that no a big part of a big part of it is um

00:42:37.300 is is um we're very into analyzing like the previous evening or like the dinner like whatever

00:42:46.120 it was like so like yes of course stretch on and it's just coffee and it's whatever it's ever crying

00:42:53.080 no i um wait but i never wait i'm sorry it was so boring i cut you off okay no i just wanted to say

00:43:02.180 that okay the department store you need to recognize when the thing that you brought that

00:43:07.940 was fabulous okay is is one no longer relevant and two no longer the the the if you're not

00:43:15.400 if you're not doing if you're not giving us the nostalgia the romance okay feeling like it's 19

00:43:21.560 whatever in the in the department store during its heyday okay then you have a problem it like

00:43:26.900 you can survive on romance okay if if people still want an experience for sure right but if

00:43:32.080 that's not there and it is not there in those haunted isles okay i mean it is i i can't tell

00:43:36.960 you that's how i've gone there god god a glittering department store so but the question is fabulous

00:43:44.400 restaurant well there it is that there it is okay that's because i used that's what you used to do 0.99

00:43:49.020 you would go to nordstrom and you'd get a fucking lunch you get a fucking tomato bisque and you 0.98

00:43:54.040 would and then you'd go home and do a fashion show for your daddy yeah i couldn't hear what you said 0.99

00:44:00.740 and do a what as you go home and do a fashion show for your daddy did you ever do that

00:44:06.820 I did that all the time no no I mean certainly not for my father okay like like certainly like

00:44:14.700 I don't know like like it would be more like I don't know no but but but it just that just wasn't

00:44:21.920 no I remember like the ecstasy like going to the mall and spending hours and then getting like

00:44:27.840 i remember i feel like they cost eight dollars at the time the mac eyeshadows and like deciding

00:44:32.000 i'm like getting one and then like we're getting a lipstick baby butterfly i remember specifically

00:44:37.440 getting this brick colored one and then and then like like taking them out of the bag and laying

00:44:44.360 it on my like bedspread the packaging just like that feeling oh my god of course stila really

00:44:51.300 does that for me by the way i want to holding and i i want to ask also the the community about

00:44:59.900 a body balm something that was not glittery but that adds some kind of

00:45:04.620 shimmer because i'll say stila made something called bathina i don't know if anyone here

00:45:09.060 used to have that i and it was in a tin it was in a tin it had a little puff uh-huh well and

00:45:15.140 the smell of it i can still oh the smell was that was the first makeup counter i ever got a full

00:45:21.040 beat done at was at the stila counter and they did me down a full beat you know they did my

00:45:28.500 they did me yes up right and took a polaroid of me took a polaroid of me and my two friends

00:45:36.200 and then the three and then i bought a compact i mean it's genius and then i bought a compact

00:45:40.580 and the polaroid of you and your friends slips in the top so you have like a photograph of you

00:45:45.960 and your girls and then you do your eye shadow i mean it was i want my palette i i'm again i'm

00:45:52.920 having a daughter and that's it was it a custom palette can we figure out i'm not sure yet

00:45:56.880 like what was it was yeah it was a custom no it wasn't a custom palette i think it was like

00:46:01.000 there were four kinds yeah sure yeah yeah if yeah i remember bethina or whatever really

00:46:06.280 i remember the smell completely too they went for it in packaging wait what are we trying to figure

00:46:12.140 about how you can have a daughter was it stila or benefit oh my god a tear in the fabric

00:46:17.260 a tear in the fabric did i say benefit did i say benefit no i think it is benefit it's not

00:46:21.060 stila okay benefit it's benefit no i think it's benefit too because benefit has all the ones like

00:46:25.680 the hula girl benefit needs a book i want a book written about the aesthetics of benefit and the

00:46:30.800 marketing and like that benefit has such a brand well they're on benefit i'll tell you what they

00:46:38.760 did. I mean, I mean, it's pretty straightforward. I feel about it. Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean,

00:46:42.940 I mean, there was a time what you have to remember is that there was a time before a benefit before

00:46:47.840 a Stila. OK, when makeup was still being treated as, you know, for fancy women. Right. OK. It was

00:46:56.820 still it was still louder. Yes. OK. And all of that, it was it was a it was a fully grown older

00:47:03.040 a French woman was the vibe right yeah and meanwhile you know we're at the makeup counters 0.78

00:47:09.120 because it's you're always into the next thing right so you're a young girl you're at the makeup 0.97

00:47:14.440 counter and then it's sort of like that's why like mac mac was like mac was like holy shit 0.72

00:47:22.560 that's a brand say that wait Jacqueline stop okay now now pick it up say that again

00:47:28.800 um so there was this moment where they were all like being disruptive okay in different ways

00:47:37.160 of that kind of classic because doesn't it feel like makeup was sort of like okay it was almost

00:47:41.840 it was the same and it was very like fancy until I feel like one of the first breaks I'm just

00:47:46.760 making this up I'm not this is just from like this might not be the tale at all but in my mind

00:47:52.140 then like I remember feeling like it was before my time but I recognize its place in history

00:47:56.520 clinique like clinique was a big term okay the the white not absence of background you know the

00:48:06.700 like like i feel like it used to be like just sitting there the elegance like like almost the

00:48:11.240 focus on the packaging right but it was like approachable i feel like clinique was like

00:48:15.260 approachable it was like for like like you know just your average woman to not be intimidated

00:48:19.880 she's not going to go in and get berated by like a french makeup woman right it was like

00:48:25.000 you know the three-step system whatever it was a kind of like functional uh prestige

00:48:31.940 brand then i feel we start to get into they go you know they go more and more and more now

00:48:38.380 now here you go are you ready remember sephora okay what once you have sephora once you have

00:48:45.600 everyone on a uniform shelving system well how are you going to cut through the clutter then

00:48:51.580 okay you you gotta like you gotta do something yeah you can't just have nice packaging

00:49:01.280 because in the old makeup counters there was there were visuals to accompany so it was a glass

00:49:09.540 cabinet with some makeup in it and then those big visuals and that's what pulled you over to the

00:49:14.960 i think sephora no big visuals other than the sephora ones right so the packaging itself had

00:49:22.920 to grab you the product itself had to grab you benefit was just a sea of pink toys and benefit

00:49:29.140 am i wrong benefit kind of had an aesthetic geared toward like teenagers right well yes but

00:49:37.500 i think it also was like i'm still yes it was pink it was playful yeah no it was pink it was pink it

00:49:43.800 was playful it was uh extremely approachable like it was like it was like it was like you didn't

00:49:50.260 have to know anything about makeup because they were yeah they were making they were okay i have

00:49:53.860 a huge word here that's what they employed that no one else did that's what they employed that

00:49:57.020 no one else did humor oh there it is okay there it is everyone else was afraid right they had like

00:50:06.460 well they're classic or like they're like you know they're like because benefit i mean they're

00:50:11.020 still doing it like they're fake or whatever is their lashes thing right right right you know

00:50:15.460 they're like yes they had other ones like that like uh yeah humor there it is humor okay benefit

00:50:23.540 do you remember the introduction of philosophy skincare oh of course oh my god philosophy did

00:50:30.800 something to me i there was a there was like a two-month period when i was i mean youth as we

00:50:37.400 know it is one of their years old i think i was 22 maximum yeah and this is what's so this is the

00:50:45.920 social contagion of brand loyalty because i had like my beautiful friend she was really into

00:50:52.940 philosophy i was so fixated hyper focused add fixated on the philosophy website yes all i

00:50:59.300 wanted all i wanted in the world was everything and she had it all okay she had like the whole 0.88

00:51:04.900 fucking line and i was convinced that philosophy was the ticket to beauty because yes yes her 0.88

00:51:10.880 like her face was a miracle to me and i was like if i use her soap which is again the thing of like 1.00

00:51:18.580 bonds between women and using the the the balm of the woman then brings you closer to her

00:51:25.180 and like it actually is the it's the only ritual we have now well well i mean yeah well i feel

00:51:33.400 closer to you that you even know about uh that bettina one that i can't i can that we even share

00:51:39.680 that same smell like i like i'm humbled and moved okay that you have that smell in your brain too

00:51:46.180 like um but yeah it's it's um you know i mean let's get real the using the i mean the god in

00:51:58.760 in consumerism i mean i mean we'll take it wherever we can get it like yeah using the

00:52:04.020 same product as someone else tell me another way that i mean or not or tell me that's not another

00:52:10.860 way to to connect absolutely there it is the only it's the only um yeah we're just arguing we're

00:52:18.920 like we're like we're like just like am i am i pitching coca-cola right now like

00:52:24.300 um okay so huge announcement I literally have to go okay youth as we know it do you remember that

00:52:33.520 and then and then and then sorry I want to talk I want to do more I want to go through all the

00:52:37.000 brains I get confused I want to go through all the brands soon because we just got started and I

00:52:43.120 and I and we just want to say that all the the listeners that we know there's been some reruns

00:52:48.340 we know there's been some hiccups but baby wait till we get into the winter poog season and

00:52:53.260 Jacqueline I'm saying on air I'm pitching I'm pitching I'm pitching this to you on air

00:52:58.620 remote episode us at Bloomingdale's or remote episode us walking through a department store

00:53:04.680 this American lifestyle I want sound collage I want a sound collage of us at the Grove and I

00:53:12.200 won't sleep till it's done I I've already I accepted 10 minutes ago all right I want to

00:53:17.680 I want the Grove episode of Pug to get a Peabody okay I love you I miss you all right Peabody

00:53:23.820 Love you.

00:53:25.100 Be body soon.

00:53:28.680 That was POOG.

00:53:30.960 If you enjoyed POOG, please subscribe, rate, and review.

00:53:34.700 If not, we will press charges.

00:53:41.100 This is Ryder Strong, and I have a new podcast called The Red Weather.

00:53:44.620 In 1995, my neighbor, Anna Traynor, disappeared from a commune.

00:53:49.000 It was nature and trees and praying and drugs.

00:53:52.740 No, I am not your guru.

00:53:56.440 Back then, I lied to everybody.

00:53:58.760 They have had this case for 30 years.

00:54:01.700 I'm going back to my hometown to uncover the truth.

00:54:05.500 Listen to The Red Weather on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:54:11.540 Crook and Chase Nashville chats with the coolest cat in country music.

00:54:15.500 He is edgy. He's fun. He is Chase Matthews.

00:54:18.800 Keith Urban helped make him a global sensation last year,

00:54:21.560 but it's his recent number one hit darling that put Chase on the map

00:54:24.580 and launched a fun and difficult conversation about lovers who cheat and lie.

00:54:29.840 That's why I'm scared to get married.

00:54:31.180 You're giving me trust issues, brother.

00:54:32.740 Crook and Chase Nashville Chats with Chase Matthew.

00:54:35.100 Listen and subscribe on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:54:41.940 Hello, it's me, Anna Sinfield, the host of The Girlfriends.

00:54:46.080 I'm back with more one-off interviews

00:54:48.160 with some truly kick-ass women on The Girlfriend's Spotlight.

00:54:53.280 I'm going to climb this. 0.81

00:54:55.680 Is badness hereditary?

00:54:57.660 Let's see how we can stop killing.

00:55:00.500 I'm not too intimidated by her.

00:55:01.940 What are you talking about? 1.00

00:55:05.920 Listen to The Girlfriend's Spotlight 0.96

00:55:07.980 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

00:55:10.520 or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:55:12.500 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:55:17.460 Guaranteed human.

Poog with Kate Berlant and Jacqueline Novak - October 04, 2022

The Thought That Counts

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