Rowan & Pine: A Feminist Folklore & Mythology Podcast - Episode Twenty-Seven： Jack Frost - Hot Guyliner

00:00:00.000 Oh hey there spooky listener. Good news. You still have some time before the episode starts. If you

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00:00:56.260 that good okay start the intro music let's do this hello hello everybody emily was just saying

00:01:10.520 she is not done with the sickness i'm not down with the sickness but i do still have the sickness

00:01:15.340 yeah wow so for anybody for anybody who watched our live it was a it was like a week ago as we're

00:01:22.480 talking about this but when this comes out it'll be two weeks ago almost it was like the second of

00:01:29.420 so yeah i was sick for the live and i'm still sick yeah but you seem a lot better now so but

00:01:36.820 yeah yeah yeah i'm not like it's not as like debilitating as it felt at that day yeah i'm

00:01:45.100 so proud of you for powering through thank you otherwise it would have been very boring if it

00:01:49.940 was just me on my own it doesn't doesn't need reading a story um madardo said that too though

00:01:56.080 he was like i'm glad you did it anyway and i was like thanks i was just like laying in bed like

00:01:59.940 i was really brave yeah i was so brave i went and sat and read a christmas story

00:02:07.560 you're like have you seen that uh video of the people singing to their pit bull

00:02:11.540 she's so brave she's well behaved she is not afraid they just their their pit bulls are afraid

00:02:21.060 of um lifts or elevators for the americans and um they have to sing this song to her every time

00:02:26.460 she gets in she's very cute but yeah people were just like i'm just adopting that for me like going

00:02:33.800 to work so brave i need that for me when i get in an elevator are you scared of elevators i'm not

00:02:42.940 like really afraid of elevators but i have nightmares about elevators all the time weird

00:02:48.500 which is weird that is they're either flying up out of control or they're falling out of control

00:02:53.620 so so whenever i'm on them i'm like a little uneasy because i'm like what if this is

00:02:58.400 what if all those dreams were premonitions and this is my moment

00:03:02.760 that's horrible i don't like i'm not really afraid of them but like i don't love them

00:03:08.560 you know yeah and i and i never thought that um like i because most of the dreams would be

00:03:15.720 elevators going up out of control like they're it's like 10 of the time they're falling yeah

00:03:22.600 but um so for a long time i was like well it's not that scary because elevators don't like go

00:03:27.640 up out of control and then there was a story oh no where that very thing happened and people were

00:03:34.420 like seriously injured shit because it went and it like slammed into stuff and the people like

00:03:39.400 flew into the ceiling and it just was really bad and i'm like so this does happen yeah 0.91

00:03:44.340 oh my god but anyway there's there's that film i keep going to call it i saw the devil i don't

00:03:52.080 like it's called i saw the devil i think that's a korean i saw the elevator no but it's like

00:03:56.860 basically um it's like people trapped in an elevator with the devil and it's like a kind

00:04:01.780 of a whodunit you don't know who it is but like there's all this telekinesis and kind of stuff in

00:04:06.360 it that sounds interesting actually yeah it's pretty good it's um m night shamalan film oh

00:04:13.120 immediately it's not interested anymore oh no i just i feel like it makes sense sounds like

00:04:21.440 something that he would make yeah to be fair he like has good ideas for films and the sixth sense

00:04:26.040 is great that's what i didn't i thought people liked him and then i heard people talking they're 0.75

00:04:31.400 like oh him and i was like wait we don't like him he had like a few films that were a bit like stupid

00:04:37.340 after sixth sense and then it was sort of like because he was that was known for such a big

00:04:45.340 twist then he was like trying to like shoehorn a twist into every film that he made and for some

00:04:50.700 people it was kind of like i don't know but i like six cents and i like the village with joaquin

00:04:55.580 phoenix i saw the happening i think that's what it was called the trees attack people

00:05:01.420 oh yeah yeah yeah or the trees like put out that spoiler alert or the trees like were

00:05:07.880 emitting the thing that would make people take their own lives my cousin and i saw it in the

00:05:14.140 theater and i remember we walked outside and like the wind blew and we both were kind of just like

00:05:19.380 it like gets you like a little freaked out it does i like i can remember it having like a pretty

00:05:27.540 cool like opening scene because i think it all like just comes out of nowhere and there's like

00:05:32.560 a lady on a bench but that's i have not seen it in years yeah but yeah i was just gonna say like

00:05:38.360 i remember when it came out and like me going like this is the stupidest thing and then our

00:05:43.680 mutual friend cj gave me like a complete dissertation on why it's a fantastic film

00:05:50.800 and i was like i still don't get it cj i'm really sorry i don't know there was obviously something

00:05:58.740 that went over my head so well i think the i think the scary part was that the it was kind

00:06:05.400 of like the earth has had enough and it's fighting back and i think that's that can be the thing that

00:06:11.720 kind of like gets to you because it's like this seems a little like it could happen yeah it's

00:06:19.320 like justified my god right we're always talking like here about how terrible people are to the

00:06:26.140 planet and animals and all of that kind of stuff right i feel like we're kind of low energy for an

00:06:33.960 opening we're both like yeah sorry i'm still sick what's your excuse no um it's friday night

00:06:43.400 oh yeah true oh but um we want to do a little bit of housekeeping i know we don't normally do

00:06:50.520 housekeeping housekeeping that was my first ever job we don't normally do housekeeping

00:06:57.660 on our episodes but we got like a really really sweet and well worded and well thought out email

00:07:06.380 from a listener last week about some of the topics that we sort of like did not handle correctly and 0.61

00:07:13.940 we misspoke and we were obviously just like in the rhythm of like chatting shit to each other

00:07:19.260 and we talked sort of before our brains were engaged well our listener who wrote to us their

00:07:26.360 name is sadie and as we emailed them and you know we apologized and stuff like that and something

00:07:32.820 that we said was we sort of get you know like when you talk to your friends you're not super formal

00:07:38.460 you're not really thinking about the fact that an entire audience is listening the the email was

00:07:45.300 about autism when we were talking about like doc martin and various other well a lot like crime

00:07:52.840 shows but just kind of like we're talking about like that drama show yeah that trend in tv where

00:07:57.880 there's like there's obviously this you know very strong personality type being portrayed

00:08:02.520 and we were talking about how that person doesn't handle emotions and isn't able to

00:08:09.980 understand or portray emotions properly but yeah and that they're not able to connect

00:08:15.500 with like your average person in and when i say average person i mean like a neurotypical person

00:08:22.480 Yeah, neurotypical. I was going to say neurodivergent. I was like, that's not the right word. That's the one we're talking about. But yeah, just the way that they can't connect with neurotypical people in the same way, because just like the way that they think and the way that they perceive emotions and and stuff like that is just like different.

00:08:39.840 yeah and we're speaking from neurotypical perspectives like emily and i are both

00:08:44.760 neurotypical so i was saying is like so we were talking about these shows and i said that these

00:08:49.600 people like can't understand emotions and then i said they're heavily autistic and our our new

00:08:57.140 friend sadie said that um heavily autistic isn't a thing and i just talking to neve i think i because

00:09:03.860 we're friends and we just talk and we kind of chat but like i said you forget that you're talking to

00:09:08.400 an audience i think i knew that she knew what i meant but like the general like broader audience

00:09:15.540 might not know what i mean yeah we're not speaking in a vacuum so we have to give context to things

00:09:21.280 that we're saying and give i know how annoying it can be when you're watching something or listening

00:09:26.480 to someone and they're giving constant disclaimers but every now and then disclaimers are necessary

00:09:31.140 like we we probably should be a little bit better about doing that and right we're also not saying

00:09:37.060 that we know everything and we also always welcome education and criticism and feedback as long as

00:09:43.420 you're nice yeah no if you're mean i'm gonna shut down i will not respond well yeah we're also

00:09:48.600 pretty bad about taking criticism uh because we we were people pleasers so um yeah thanks

00:09:54.440 especially to sadie for wording that so beautifully and um for just coming from a place of wanting to

00:10:00.980 educate and not scold or anything like that round of applause for sadie i think that sadie went

00:10:06.760 about it really well i understand that we have to be educated and that you and i talking on a

00:10:13.160 podcast you know this goes public so many people hear it i think we need to be more mindful of that

00:10:19.360 and a lot of our listeners like know us but we are starting to see that like some people don't

00:10:25.440 know us which is really interesting because i'm just like oh god yeah strangers are hearing my

00:10:29.800 voice i would like to think that people know that we are not trying to be ignorant or malicious and

00:10:36.700 anyway yeah and then if we misspeak it's it is genuinely because we don't know or we babbled

00:10:44.540 but thank you city and um thanks to anybody who is like might have like been like saddened or

00:10:52.160 upset but you're still here um we love you oh wait we have more housekeeping yes and that other

00:10:58.380 lighter bit of housekeeping is we keep like each time we've recorded since this went out we have

00:11:05.520 gone oh crap we never thanked the no other crack podcast they are a local podcast to me in donegal

00:11:13.220 and it is uh two women around the same age as emily and i um trish or patricia i don't know

00:11:22.320 she goes by trish on the podcast but then marie calls her patricia and marie and during their

00:11:28.320 halloween episodes they very kindly sent us a message and asked for a clip of rowan and pine

00:11:33.640 to play on their podcast which was so sweet because their podcast isn't folklore based or

00:11:39.700 anything like that they're sort of like a news magazine kind of show it's a really good show to

00:11:44.520 listen to especially if you're like me and you work from home because it's sort of like a chatty

00:11:48.480 conversation in the background that it's like it doesn't have a plot that you have to like

00:11:52.320 follow and you can sort of tune in and out a little bit but yeah that was really really lovely

00:11:56.840 of them and we appreciate it so much um and it was really nice to hear our voices on somebody

00:12:03.060 else's podcast it was just a weird it was like a weird novelty uh to hear that say hold on so thank

00:12:09.820 you to trisha marie and i leave a link to uh their instagram so you can go and follow them or like

00:12:16.920 check out their podcast because they'll have it all linked on their instagram as well in the

00:12:20.420 description of our episode and if you're like me you think that it says no other craig yeah so it's

00:12:27.040 like the kind of it's not even hiberno-irish it's like um a weird colloquial spelling of the word

00:12:34.220 crack c-r-a-i-c um but crack is like the irish and northern english term for fun or news or

00:12:43.760 happenings so it's sort of like them getting together to talk about pop culture so it's like

00:12:48.560 no other crack um which is kind of what we say conversationally here in donegal which is very

00:12:53.480 cute yeah yeah and we don't say it here so yeah thank you for explaining that and now i'm gonna

00:12:58.180 teach emily about about what jack frost oh yay i'm actually really excited for this oh i'm glad

00:13:08.060 um this is one of those ones that like you know when it comes to you and you're like

00:13:13.180 yes that'll be such an interesting episode and then i like started looking into it and there

00:13:19.060 was a few surprises along the way but a lot of um Norse mythology which you and I both like so um

00:13:26.660 that's so cool will be I never this would not have even been an idea that I would think

00:13:32.320 could be an episode so I'm super excited yeah well like I was almost like disappointed because I was

00:13:38.100 like you'll see when I get into it because I was like oh there has to be more than this but then

00:13:42.000 like if you explore it a little bit more there's a lot that we can talk about okay so Jack Frost

00:13:46.540 he's sort of like a personification of the the weather phenomenon of frost and of like like the

00:13:53.100 freezing grass and the frost on your windscreens and on your cars and on the paths and all of that

00:13:58.640 on the what paths i thought you said the pats on the pats yes no not on your pats i was like

00:14:05.020 who's pat on your cow pat no gross so what was interesting is there are more characters associated

00:14:11.140 with winter elements in folklore than any other season really yeah some of them that came up in

00:14:17.280 my research were old man winter who emily taught us about last year dead morose um there is snow

00:14:23.620 queens ice maidens mother holla who i think sounds so interesting i don't think we really covered her

00:14:31.020 we might have mentioned her here and there um i don't who's also that doesn't sound familiar

00:14:35.300 She's also known as Mother Hulda and Old Mother Frost.

00:14:39.380 Okay.

00:14:40.000 She was immortalized in a Grimm Brothers tale, but she comes from like an old German folktale.

00:14:46.960 Hala is the goddess to whom children who died as infants go.

00:14:50.360 She's also known as the Dunkelgrossmutter, which translates to dark grandmother or the Weissefrau, who's the white lady.

00:14:58.740 Or in some traditions, she is Perkte.

00:15:01.240 Okay.

00:15:01.820 Yeah.

00:15:02.320 So we have talked about that before.

00:15:04.080 Yeah. You covered Perkta. She seems to show up quite a lot. So I was like, right, there's all

00:15:09.200 of these characters. Jack Frost must be like a well-known one. What was interesting is he's not

00:15:14.020 actually a character from folklore or mythology. He is just a turn of phrase that emerged around

00:15:19.820 the 18th century. Interesting. Yeah. So the very first literary reference to Jack Frost was in a

00:15:27.740 book called roundabout hour coal fire or christmas entertainments from 1734 that book also contains

00:15:34.980 the first ever printed telling of jack and the beanstalk what's up with the name jack i know

00:15:40.000 that story jack and the beanstalk was actually originally called the story of jack spriggans

00:15:44.920 and the enchanted bean yeah i like jack and the beanstalk yeah enchanted beans sounds like

00:15:49.820 funny some sort of a innuendo i guess we have the bean here in chicago so oh yeah which is i'm just

00:16:01.960 gonna start calling it the enchanted bean did you ever hear about that artist who made the bean 0.60

00:16:06.500 in chicago no so he's a huge dick oh really and the sculpture is technically called cloud gate 0.93

00:16:13.760 right and he's like very very pissed off that people call it the bean well you made a giant 0.98

00:16:18.760 bean dude like what did you think what do you think is gonna happen yeah cloud gate

00:16:24.020 actually i i often wonder this how is it so like shiny like does it not get stained from like

00:16:30.840 rain or snow or anything do they clean it well that it's so funny we were downtown um last week

00:16:36.620 and we saw them they had it closed down and they were like cleaning it oh interesting yeah when you

00:16:42.900 when you go to it there's handprints and stuff all over okay because every time i've seen like

00:16:47.560 people take photos at it or anything like that i'm always like that's so shiny like what did

00:16:51.180 they put on it like yeah it is very shiny yeah but that same artist he invented the vanta black

00:16:57.240 which is um have you heard of that i've heard of it but explain it's like the darkest yeah it's

00:17:02.820 like it is the blackest black because it doesn't it's like a technology and it doesn't absorb any

00:17:08.960 light at all and so it looks like a hole yeah so like whatever you paint it's like it's like a

00:17:16.420 black hole basically well not basically but it looks like a black hole and he didn't want anybody

00:17:23.400 else to use it so he like bought the rights to it or something like that and he won't let anybody 1.00

00:17:27.700 else use it and he's just what a dick he's just a big yeah he's a prick we don't like him he's like 0.99

00:17:33.640 how can you be an artist and be so controlling like your art's supposed to be there for people 1.00

00:17:38.060 to consume so you can't like get mad that they're calling your artwork the wrong name or that people 0.99

00:17:43.120 want to use your color you know what i mean right yeah yeah so he's kind of a jerk and we don't like 0.92

00:17:48.700 him so enchanted bean it is yeah probably the best illustration of how jack frost is like a 0.91

00:17:58.820 personification of the winter elements is in the poem called jack frost by hannah f gould

00:18:05.120 so uh the poem goes like this the frost looked forth one still clear night and whispered

00:18:12.920 now i shall be out of sight so through the valley and over the height in silence i'll take my way

00:18:19.160 i will not go on like that blustering train the wind and the snow the hail and the rain that

00:18:24.600 makes such a bustle and a noise in vain but i'll be as busy as they so he flew to the mountain and

00:18:30.600 powdered its crest he lit on the trees and their bows he dressed with diamonds and pearls and over

00:18:37.080 the breast of the quivering lake he spread a coat of mail that it need not fear the downward point

00:18:43.720 of many a spear that he hung on its margin far and near where a rock could rear its head

00:18:49.640 he went to the windows of those who slept and over each pain like a fairy crept

00:18:54.280 wherever he breathed wherever he stepped by the light of the morn were seen most beautiful things

00:19:00.760 were their flowers and trees there were bevies of birds and swarms of bees there were cities

00:19:06.040 with temples and towers and these

00:19:08.020 all pictured in silvery sheen

00:19:09.680 but he did one thing that was hardly

00:19:12.120 fair, he peeped in the cupboard

00:19:13.960 and finding there, that all had

00:19:16.020 forgotten for him to prepare

00:19:17.420 now just to set them a thinking

00:19:19.560 I'll bite this basket of fruit

00:19:22.060 said he, this costly pitcher

00:19:23.940 I'll burst in three, and the glass

00:19:26.220 of water they left for me

00:19:27.660 shall chick to tell them I'm drinking

00:19:30.000 so that's like, he's sort of mischievous

00:19:34.020 he's an artist

00:19:35.560 he likes to make things beautiful but also i think the reference to like biting the fruit is

00:19:42.080 how like you know like food can get frostbitten or like freezer burnt oh yeah yeah so it's it's

00:19:48.400 quite sweet so we see these sort of themes coming on um wherever jack frost is depicted he's sort of

00:19:56.060 like this young sprite kind of a figure like he's like a mischievous fairy and he's like there to

00:20:04.420 wreak havoc like he'll make he'll make the roads like icy and like he'll like freeze the trees and 1.00

00:20:11.100 all of that kind of stuff makes you get out the windshield scraper he's just sort of like an

00:20:16.440 inconvenience more than anything right um so after that very first mention in roundabout our cold

00:20:23.060 fire there are various mentions and references in newspapers and journals um just go through some

00:20:29.020 of them really quick in 1765 somebody wrote a letter to the editor signed by jack frost

00:20:35.720 people are crazy they didn't have tv zodiac killer yeah yeah it went like what was it

00:20:44.800 within like freaking 100 years it was jack the ripper writing letters another jack yeah

00:20:52.380 my god the jack-o'-lantern i'm just like too many jacks can we yeah let's pick a new name

00:20:59.100 yeah there has to be like there's lots of names in the world how about greg

00:21:02.840 i think greg was our original like um guy from work name greg from work yeah that's my that's

00:21:10.540 like my go-to of like freaking greg i thought it might even because we were watching succession

00:21:17.540 as well wait who is who is he in succession again greg um was he kind of like the dopey cousin guy 0.93

00:21:25.560 yeah cousin greg can't make a tomlet without breaking some gregs

00:21:29.120 also like i need you to remember that i watched succession when my daughter was like a month old

00:21:35.900 you were severely sleep deprived i remember you sending me messages and i was like just stick with

00:21:40.680 it i was like and you were like it's so complicated and i was like no it's complicated even when you're

00:21:44.980 not sleep deprived yeah and i think i was references oh my god that was the worst and

00:21:50.660 then i i think i fell asleep for like three episodes or something i just like knocked out

00:21:55.380 and then i was like do i go back nah why are they in italy at a wedding where did this come from

00:22:02.540 he killed what happened on those cruise ships yeah my god ah good show though and they weren't

00:22:14.180 done writing things in like the voice of jack in 1785 uh jack frost had an advice column um to

00:22:22.220 to all honest all honest honest to all all honest hearts at this nipping season

00:22:29.320 a new year all over again yeah colonel hall honest hall honest um he started getting mentioned in

00:22:41.660 like weather reports and like sporting like magazines in 1858 they gave him a wife jack

00:22:49.440 frost's wife was betty snow okay why was her last name not frost who knows maybe she's a feminist

00:22:55.760 yeah she came with her own name good for her snaps for you girly there was um actually a book

00:23:02.640 starring them by john f chanter they were capricious spirits who froze everything and killed

00:23:07.700 people so we're moving away from the mischievous little trickster it's not a frozen apple anymore

00:23:14.580 yeah jesus in 1861 and 1864 he's aging so he appears for the first time in uh cartoons um

00:23:25.600 i'm not talking about like animated cartoons for those listening i'm talking about like cartoons

00:23:29.300 that are in newspapers like comics yeah um yeah they've written cartoons here maybe they should

00:23:35.020 said comics um he appears as a fearsome bearded general bristling with icicles drawn by thomas

00:23:43.220 nast in harper's weekly they mentioned him as the frigid embrace of jack frost then we he starts to

00:23:53.120 de-age again towards the end of the century in 1875 there was a poem called little jack frost

00:23:58.580 by charles sangster and he is described as a nose-biting prank playing creature capering

00:24:06.580 while wildly through storm and sleet and he's finally ousted by mother nature who 0.99

00:24:11.860 clearly must be done with his shit she's sick of you 0.98

00:24:16.120 um it's only in 1889 that he starts to get associated with christmas and he is a neighbor 1.00

00:24:25.320 of santa and mrs claus oh okay yeah so the wife has disappeared you know did they get divorced

00:24:31.880 legally separated did she realize he's a child she's like i can't keep up one day he's like an

00:24:39.040 old man then the next he's a teenager and he keeps biting my nose she goes i'm married to a daddy and

00:24:44.100 then all of a sudden yeah she just can't put up with it anymore yeah and then in 19 1934 he appears

00:24:53.120 for the first time as a weird but friendly

00:24:55.720 little gnome armied with a paintbrush

00:24:57.800 and palette

00:24:58.240 but his nemesis is

00:25:01.500 Old Man Winter so you get a separation

00:25:03.840 of his identities it's so weird

00:25:05.780 how these figures

00:25:07.040 they can be blended together

00:25:09.560 but also separated

00:25:10.580 they can be different parts

00:25:13.080 we had that a lot in our Crossroads episodes

00:25:15.440 different facets of the same being

00:25:17.220 well yeah you'd think that

00:25:19.460 Jack Frost and Old Man Winter were kind of

00:25:21.760 the same person but

00:25:23.060 yeah like father and son or something as well right yeah he appears more in like art and

00:25:30.660 magazine covers and then probably the most famous mention came in 1945

00:25:36.940 chestnuts roasting on an open fire oh she's doing it raw snipping at your nose i think they say nip

00:25:46.400 in no uh so yeah that was that was probably the most famous mention of jack frost and he really

00:25:55.260 became part of the lexicon then um and then there's not a whole lot until 2011 when i'm sorry

00:26:02.160 hold on michael keaton oh my god i forgot about that i'm like there was a mention of jack frost

00:26:09.420 and it was michael keaton the most emotionally devastating film that was pretty bad yeah oh my

00:26:16.900 i remember watching it as a kid being like oh cute it's gonna be like a christmas movie and

00:26:20.620 then it's like oh no oh no oh god yeah what year was that i don't know let me look it up yeah because

00:26:27.420 the next i have is like 2011 because that was the only thing i could really think of then because

00:26:31.420 like the article that i had cut off in 1945 and i was like well that's definitely not the last

00:26:35.180 mention of him in pop culture yeah so there's the jack frost which was like more of a horror movie

00:26:40.820 oh yeah and that was in 97 and then this jack frost with michael keaton was in 98 98 okay so

00:26:49.040 we jumped from 1945 to 1998 i'm sure there are things that like popped up in between then that

00:26:55.360 i just don't really know about or like maybe they're like u.s centric that i don't know about

00:27:01.580 but um probably watching we were watching the um i don't know if you know them they're kind of like

00:27:08.480 the classic christmas uh claymation movies the rank and bass movies like rudolph the red-nosed

00:27:14.460 reindeer and stuff like that i've seen like i've seen gifs like people seem to make a lot of like

00:27:19.660 parodies out of them like i've never actually seen one of the films yeah i've seen like gifs

00:27:23.980 of like people making rudolph swear and stuff oh okay so they're like the claymation movies and

00:27:29.900 we were watching them we were watching a couple the other night and there's the they're are they

00:27:35.700 called the miser brothers but it's like the heat miser and the snow miser and the snow miser is

00:27:40.900 basically like jack frost and their mom's mother nature oh so there is kind of mentioned there

00:27:46.880 but not by not by name not by his government name yeah in 2011 a book series was published

00:27:55.180 called the guardians of childhood and it was immediately picked up for adaptation into a

00:27:59.880 dreamworks movie called rise of the guardians of course and jack frost was like the breakout star

00:28:05.600 in that i remember like girls in their like late teens being like obsessed with that character

00:28:11.560 like writing fan fiction for him i'm sorry i'm not familiar with this at all and i need to look it up

00:28:17.700 what is it because he's like he's he's portrayed it's called rise of the guardians um and the books

00:28:22.300 by william joyce oh my god it like immediately pops up jack frost yeah so jack frost and he's

00:28:28.660 like portrayed as a teenager and of course like he's like he's got like the emo haircut and he's

00:28:33.320 like a cute little boy yeah but i remember like the tumblr girls were going feral for jack frost

00:28:39.980 oh my god and i was like i might miss it like what you know but apparently you know he's kind

00:28:48.340 of like when um when boys started wearing eyeliner and girls were just like oh my god

00:28:56.840 my whole brain chemistry has just changed they're like what is happening to me i will never be the

00:29:04.560 same again yeah he'd winced in what yeah i remember i think it started i think it started

00:29:12.080 with like johnny depp in pirates of the caribbean yeah which i thought was weird liner 0.99

00:29:17.660 oh god because god forbid it's eyeliner yeah that's just used on a face that's attached to a penis 0.68

00:29:26.000 somewhere what were you saying about johnny depp no because like my friends all had a crush 0.94

00:29:31.960 on johnny depp but we were like 12 or something like we were young when that movie came out

00:29:37.720 and i was like do you guys understand this man is like your father's age i know

00:29:45.540 but yeah it was like oh my god the eyeliner yeah billy joe armstrong and stuff it's like okay

00:29:52.820 all right they're doing it yeah it was a real thing there for a while and then like i like

00:29:59.160 vivid memories of putting it and like putting it on like guys in school i'm like you know like it's

00:30:04.340 gonna be so hot just let me put eyeliner on you and like convincing guys and like everybody would

00:30:09.940 get like everybody's like eyes would be like streaming tears and all the girls like yeah 0.55

00:30:14.060 like it's it's amazing like it just changes your face yeah it looks great then it was probably like

00:30:20.060 some guy was just um desperate for some female attention oh bless oh my gosh good times good

00:30:29.660 times when we had guy liner and we're all into emo boys yeah my god it's like they're in touch

00:30:36.140 with their sensitive side which honestly is attractive it's like if you're in touch with

00:30:39.840 your emotions i dig it and then all the music they listen to is horribly misogynistic 0.71

00:30:43.840 all of us listening to like songs about like murdering their girlfriends and burying them

00:30:51.600 in the woods and stuff we're like yeah yeah i love it i'm so edgy oh my gosh hey some of that

00:30:59.100 stuff it still slaps like great songs it does it does um so beyond like like those mentions of jack

00:31:06.060 frost and like rise of the guardians etc etc i wanted to know if there is any actual basis in

00:31:13.120 folklore did he come from somewhere because we know when the first like literary mention of him

00:31:17.920 was but did that person just pull it out of the air or what yeah i imagine i just imagine you pose

00:31:24.620 that question then you're like and that's the end of the episode everybody write in no he didn't

00:31:30.740 no you did like you like ask the question to the audience you're like so what do you think 0.77

00:31:35.980 what do you think make up your fuck yeah folklore goodbye it's like i watched like philip defranco 0.99

00:31:42.260 for like news roundups before like while I'm eating my breakfast and it drives you in nuts 0.99

00:31:46.940 at the end of every news segment he goes I know I'm gonna pass this question off to you what do 0.81

00:31:50.560 you think and um he's like I fucking hate that I'm like he does it for engagement so people will

00:31:55.180 comment and the more people comment like you know the better it'll show up on the algorithm 0.94

00:31:58.840 yeah but it's just so fucking annoying it sounds like he's on the on the fence the whole time

00:32:03.160 but I think he just he hates Philip DeFranco because he used to watch him like years ago 0.52

00:32:08.820 when his whole channel was about megan fox when ewan was like 19 or something oh and then he saw

00:32:14.220 him like when i started watching him when he's like doing like proper news roundups and like

00:32:18.500 doing like deep dives and things like what the fuck happened you're like he's matured yeah thank

00:32:25.060 god he's joined my side yes so some like folklore characters or deities or i don't like saying the

00:32:33.780 word characters because it sounds like trivializing them when like a lot of people believe in these

00:32:37.580 things like it sounds made it sounds like a like a written like a made up from a movie kind of a

00:32:42.600 thing yeah they probably have like the most in common with jack frost so we have in northern

00:32:48.520 russia and finland there's an almighty deity known as frost man he's not a superhero

00:32:54.740 he doesn't have an f on his chest yeah just giant f just shooting icicles out of his uh

00:33:03.220 hands like spider-man he commanded the weather and was given sacrifices by reindeer herders to

00:33:08.760 persuade him to lessen the severity of blizzards okay villagers would leave bowls of porridge for

00:33:15.360 the frost man to ensure their crops weren't touched by the damaging frost did they make

00:33:19.580 sure to put butter on it there's no mention of butter but yeah like i i feel like uh people put

00:33:25.220 too much stock in how much um fairy and fey creatures like porridge it makes sense why we

00:33:30.480 like it yeah in Japanese folklore the Frostman was a malicious character and the brother of the

00:33:37.280 Mistman and they were both keepers of the Frost and Jew many sources connect him to a Norse deity

00:33:43.400 called Jokul Frosty who we're going to talk about a lot later but this has sort of been debunked

00:33:49.960 Jokul Frosty as a singular character doesn't actually exist and he doesn't have a clear

00:33:56.520 connection to jack frost but we're going to talk about him anyway see where this came from because

00:34:01.420 i was like that's but who is jokul frosty i want to know i need to know more so we're going to bring

00:34:08.940 it back for jokul frosty a few generations in norse and germanic mythology we have the jotun

00:34:16.760 that's the old norse or in the english it's eotun e-o-t-e-n okay and they're collectively known as

00:34:23.220 the Jotnar and that is the race of giants in Norse mythology. So in Norse mythology there are gods,

00:34:29.540 humans, dwarves, elves, trolls and giants. So the Jotnar are giants. Perfect. Is this sounding 0.71

00:34:35.720 familiar to you at all? It is. Yeah. So giants. The word Jotnar became synonymous with giants

00:34:45.020 but it actually means devourer and when Vikings settled in northern France they intermingled

00:34:51.140 the French word guillant, which came from the root word was titan with jotun. So devourer and

00:34:57.780 giant came to mean basically the same thing. Okay. Jotnar typically dwell across boundaries

00:35:04.100 that cannot be traversed by usual means from the gods and humans in lands such as the Jotunheimr,

00:35:11.000 which is one of the nine realms described as dark, old and desolate in Norse mythology.

00:35:16.400 The giants themselves are defined by their enormous size and quote-unquote ugly features, like fangs.

00:35:25.180 I think fangs are cool. 0.94

00:35:27.000 I'm like, ugly? 1.00

00:35:28.260 Yeah, and green skin. 1.00

00:35:30.600 But many of them are actually, even though they're called giants, they're the same size as their god counterparts.

00:35:36.060 and interestingly giantesses are described as being extraordinarily beautiful and many of them

00:35:43.980 intermarried with as guardian gods in norse legends okay so if you think of them as like

00:35:51.820 the opposite of gods where the gods represent order the jotnar represent chaos and in a lot

00:35:59.360 of the legends they are the antagonists to the heroes that we're probably a bit more familiar

00:36:04.140 with like Odin, Thor and Freyja.

00:36:07.320 Can you tell I looked up a Icelandic pronunciation guide?

00:36:10.620 I was going to say, wow, look at you.

00:36:13.100 Actually, a quick shout out to Hrafna on YouTube

00:36:15.880 because she has made a three-part video series

00:36:18.560 on how you're supposed to be pronouncing Norse mythology

00:36:22.020 because she got so annoyed after watching the Marvel movies.

00:36:25.980 She's like, this is because of Chris Hemsworth.

00:36:29.140 She's so mad at him.

00:36:30.960 That is amazing. I love that.

00:36:33.020 I also just it just makes me happy that people out there will make pronunciation videos because

00:36:38.740 yeah I've tried to look at so many different pronunciations and everybody's like no you don't

00:36:44.320 need to know that yeah there were actually a few to do with um because I wanted to make sure I had

00:36:49.860 the nine realms correct and there was one all of Swedish pronunciation by a girl called Helen and

00:36:55.820 then there was one of like Icelandic pronunciations and the argument was that Icelandic

00:37:02.200 is closer to Old Norse and is more accurate but I'm not going to start an Iceland Sweden feud here

00:37:09.040 so please direct any of your tweets to those countries so we mentioned earlier the nine

00:37:17.940 realms so Jotunheimr was the realm where the Jotnar resided the other realms were

00:37:25.140 Ausgardr or Asgard. That is the near perfect home of the Aesir deities. Mithgardr or Midgard, 0.89

00:37:32.160 which is the land of humans where we live. Ulfheimr, which is the home of the elves. 0.88

00:37:37.480 Hel, which is a resting place for the dead. Vanaheim, which is the world of the magical

00:37:42.780 Vanir deities. This is the hard one. Nithhavetlir, which is the subterranean realm of the dwarves.

00:37:49.400 Okay. The one that I famously mispronounced last season. It's not Niflheim. It's Niflheimr.

00:37:55.140 it's uh the what song is it from it's the frigid land of the ice and snow is it oh my god it's 0.94

00:38:03.240 led zeppelin fuck come from the land of the ice and snow yeah i hear it i just immigrant song no 0.94

00:38:10.660 it's not immigrant song i'm gonna have to look it up because people are gonna be screaming up 0.99

00:38:14.560 oh it is immigrant song i was right you were right wow should have trusted myself

00:38:24.100 And then the last of the nine realms is Muspelheimr, which is the realm of heat and flame.

00:38:30.500 The nine realms hung on the branches or else grew from the roots of the tree of life called Yggdrasil, which gave structure and form to the cosmos.

00:38:40.820 And then just as like a subcategory, Jotunheimr, along with hell, constitutes the other world.

00:38:46.880 so hell as I said 0.89

00:38:49.240 is a resting place for the dead 0.99

00:38:50.800 and then Jotunheimr is where

00:38:52.600 the frost giants lived

00:38:54.340 the frost giants

00:38:55.780 so the frost giants and the fire giants

00:38:58.780 are the two different classes of giants

00:39:00.600 the fire giants are only really known for

00:39:02.740 setting fire to the nine realms during

00:39:04.660 Ragnarok

00:39:05.580 but the frost giants

00:39:07.360 don't you mean Ragnarok

00:39:08.380 Ragnarok

00:39:09.040 and the frost giants are probably

00:39:14.620 the most prominent ones that show up again and again

00:39:16.600 in stories like with all of our faves the faves the faves but back to jack so in norse mythology

00:39:25.700 the god carrie is the god of the north wind and the oldest son of mist blindi an ancient frost

00:39:32.320 giant who's also known as hornyotter these are all so much fun to say is that sarcasm no honestly

00:39:40.040 like if you if you can see okay if they're easy to pronounce they're fun to pronounce but if

00:39:44.360 They're not easy to pronounce.

00:39:45.320 Right.

00:39:46.040 When it's like a lot of consonants, you're just like tripping over the words.

00:39:51.860 Yeah.

00:39:52.700 Kari's two brothers were Logi, not to be confused with Loki.

00:39:58.180 Logi was an ancient fire god and Aegir was the god of the sea.

00:40:02.780 And something interesting about Kari, which we saw earlier in Jack,

00:40:07.660 was he regresses in age and then he ages again.

00:40:11.740 so in the spring he returns to the form of a slender androgynous youth and then throughout

00:40:17.780 the year he ages until he is a bearded old man in winter well so it's almost like he mirrors the

00:40:25.560 change of the north wind from a cooling breeze into the bringer of like bitter blizzards yeah

00:40:31.940 and then similar to um the frost man a reindeer is his symbol and if you wanted to hang a shrine

00:40:40.240 to carry you can uh hang a reindeer ornament and he'll be happy which is you know a bit easier than

00:40:46.540 like sacrificing reindeer yeah but um where it comes into like this episode is carry actually

00:40:56.340 had two sons one of them was named frosty and the other was named yokul so frosty just means frost

00:41:02.700 and yokul means icicle so these were two different people um whereas people sort of amalgamated them

00:41:09.760 into one person as the son of carrie so if you actually look into the mythology it's two different

00:41:14.300 people so yokul in particular was a nymph-like creature who painted you know those beautiful

00:41:20.500 frosty patterns on windows yeah i love those so much there was one of my car the last day and i

00:41:26.660 was like i don't want to like get rid of it it's so beautiful right i always wanted to take pictures

00:41:31.800 of all those things and then i just have all these pictures on my phone yeah of like oh look at this

00:41:37.040 leaf or like look at this snowflake um so yokul was the one who's responsible for painting those

00:41:44.280 on windows during the night and he was described as the personification of the chill that arrived

00:41:50.440 with winter and nipped at the noses of the children with his icy bite jack frost nipping at your nose

00:41:55.940 yeah as i mentioned before people tend to amalgamate the two brothers so yokul frosty was actually

00:42:01.840 sometimes seen as a more frightening figure he would bring darkness and bitter cold with him

00:42:07.760 in finland and russia we can see a similar jewel presentation so in finnish folklore there is the

00:42:15.960 paka spoike which translates to the frost boy who's a young boy who makes people's fingers

00:42:21.940 and toes cold in winter and he freezes the land in late autumn he's described in legends as the

00:42:28.360 son of evil parents and the

00:42:30.460 hero or champion of evil

00:42:32.580 in the same way it was believed

00:42:34.580 that in later times Jack Frost

00:42:36.660 has to just be an innocent trickster

00:42:38.620 because nobody who could paint such

00:42:40.340 beautiful patterns on windows and glass could

00:42:42.360 be fully evil. Yeah. Agreed.

00:42:45.080 And that unfortunately

00:42:46.380 is all that is known about Yoko

00:42:48.060 Frosty. I thought it was interesting

00:42:50.380 that Jack Frost is

00:42:52.620 a recent creation

00:42:54.480 because it shows the folklore

00:42:56.300 still developing really isn't it? Right.

00:42:58.360 it's gonna soon they'll be talking about this

00:43:01.440 and they'll bring up Michael Keaton

00:43:03.080 and there was a man

00:43:04.600 who was sometimes

00:43:07.380 a Batman

00:43:07.920 and then he became a snowman

00:43:10.400 and other times a frost man

00:43:12.560 a frost man

00:43:13.980 with a big F on his chest

00:43:15.800 they put a snowflake in the sky to call for him

00:43:18.760 it starts here

00:43:21.080 really

00:43:21.480 this is Emily's new comic that she's working on

00:43:24.240 no this is my new folklore

00:43:26.700 that's my episode on jack frost i just wanted something that was like one of those things

00:43:33.260 that's on your periphery that you never quite look up and you never quite know where it came from

00:43:37.560 so you decide to look into it it's interesting that the frost is always like um almost always

00:43:42.580 either a teenage boy or an old man i think it makes way more sense that he's an old man

00:43:46.980 just because i think that winter is sort of the season that implies old and death you know what

00:43:56.220 like the end of a life cycle sort of yeah yeah because everything well in the northern hemisphere

00:44:02.900 southern hemisphere gets snow right on their mountains i guess yeah i'm like wait a second

00:44:07.280 there's snow in new zealand okay because there's snow in lord of the rings i know we just

00:44:10.900 we'll get it do we get it at different times of the year i think is what i'm thinking of it just

00:44:17.720 you know because like spring is sort of like the baby season and then i assume that summer is kind

00:44:25.480 of like childhood teenagerhood we're in we're in like our fall phase right now what age we're at

00:44:32.060 yeah i'm okay with that i'll take the fall phase yeah and winter is coming

00:44:36.820 winter is definitely coming our hair color is changing just like the leaves yeah pretty soon

00:44:45.100 it's gonna fall out jesus mine's already mine already did fall out if i had a baby

00:44:50.620 so our question for creature council this week is i'm hosting christmas dinner and my uncle who

00:44:59.720 always brings strange women to christmas is coming how do i tell him that he can't have

00:45:04.800 a plus one that's from frazzled in fermanagh in what fermanagh it's like a county right next to

00:45:15.100 that's so funny all right creature council coming up

00:45:21.140 i tried to like not look at them oh my god it's cramp

00:45:28.840 this is uh this is very apt for this episode we've actually been quite lucky yeah apart from

00:45:39.040 like robert the doll he didn't really fit but uh we've been very lucky with them oddly like

00:45:44.880 Yeah, they've oddly, like, all worked out, except for Robert the doll.

00:45:49.100 Well, thankfully, Emily speaks Krampus, so she's going...

00:45:53.660 Oh, yeah, Krampus, yeah, just wait.

00:45:55.920 You can't start talking until Emily translates.

00:45:58.920 Hold on, hold on, hold on.

00:46:00.320 Okay, Emily's going to translate Krampus' answer.

00:46:05.220 Okay.

00:46:06.540 All right, Krampus, come a little closer. 0.90

00:46:09.200 Not too close, your breath is a little stinky. 0.86

00:46:12.200 It's all those sheep.

00:46:14.880 okay so oh no hold on okay so Krampus is saying that 0.95

00:46:29.360 Krampus is saying that if the women come and they bring naughty children 0.99

00:46:39.420 that they definitely 1.00

00:46:41.680 should come to Christmas

00:46:42.740 and you should just put them in your 0.86

00:46:45.740 naughty children's sack. 1.00

00:46:47.900 So Krampus likes single moms? Is that what 0.98

00:46:49.680 he's trying to say?

00:46:53.260 Okay, Krampus says it depends on how hairy 1.00

00:46:55.640 the women are. 1.00

00:46:57.460 Krampus likes a woman with some hair. 0.99

00:47:00.520 Okay, alright. 1.00

00:47:02.500 He's a feminist. 1.00

00:47:05.740 Unshaven is best. 0.99

00:47:06.840 Krampus also 1.00

00:47:09.320 says that if these women have 1.00

00:47:11.300 naughty children that you should eat 1.00

00:47:13.380 them which okay Krampus that's a 0.63

00:47:15.380 little weird I mean I

00:47:17.200 get where you're coming from but

00:47:19.260 oh okay

00:47:20.520 um

00:47:21.780 he also says that

00:47:25.500 if

00:47:27.460 you don't want your uncle to bring

00:47:29.260 a plus one all you have to do 1.00

00:47:31.400 is get out the whip

00:47:32.380 go outside get a branch

00:47:34.860 make sure the branch has like

00:47:36.760 a few little twigs and stuff on it.

00:47:40.340 Okay.

00:47:41.160 And then,

00:47:42.640 Krampus, that's a little wild.

00:47:44.360 He's saying that you should whip your uncle?

00:47:46.760 I don't know.

00:47:47.840 I don't know about this, Krampus.

00:47:49.240 This is, okay.

00:47:50.660 Well, that was some weird advice for Krampus.

00:47:54.820 Yeah, we're good.

00:47:56.900 Okay, thank you so much.

00:47:57.680 Prince everywhere.

00:47:58.840 Appreciate you.

00:48:02.220 There's soot in my house now.

00:48:04.920 Smells like old meat.

00:48:06.240 Anyway.

00:48:06.760 I don't care if nobody likes these 1.00

00:48:12.600 girls I find them very fun

00:48:13.980 I know

00:48:16.500 I'm like I find this entertaining

00:48:18.100 so that's all that matters

00:48:20.100 is that we enjoy it

00:48:21.420 well as always if you have any burning questions

00:48:24.380 that you need counsel from a

00:48:26.480 creature

00:48:26.840 for on

00:48:29.160 please send it to us

00:48:31.920 with

00:48:32.560 to our email you would have heard the email at the top of the episode

00:48:36.460 and it's also in the description

00:48:37.860 or any of our social media

00:48:40.420 we do check those and follow us

00:48:42.600 there we do

00:48:44.280 yeah follow us

00:48:46.140 follow us

00:48:47.800 too weird too culty

00:48:50.680 is Rowan and Pine a cult

00:48:52.620 not yet

00:48:53.880 we just need more donations

00:48:55.500 more donations

00:48:58.560 more followers

00:48:59.720 this is actually going to be our last episode before

00:49:02.520 Christmas

00:49:03.060 because it goes out on the

00:49:06.240 13th i'm gonna wish you guys a merry christmas happy hanukkah whatever it is you celebrate

00:49:13.940 how do you say merry christmas in irish merry christmas um do you think i just said it in my 0.98

00:49:23.100 own accent yeah i thought that was your answer you're like great christmas oh fuck it's no look 0.98

00:49:31.360 no look on a dave isn't it you're asking the wrong look on a dave i'm not saying it's a dave 0.97

00:49:39.240 dave is like the irish word for y'all i'm just saying happy christmas to dave but also

00:49:45.780 congratulations to our friend david you know why you you know who you are and you know we're not

00:49:51.520 couldn't say anything else that is all um so yeah thank you so much for being with us coming back to

00:50:00.700 us for season two if you're new on season two we still have more to go for sure so happy holidays

00:50:08.260 merry christmas from us at rowan and pine she's rowan i'm pine um

00:50:15.020 no you're rowan i've established this somebody said that was like which one's rowan we're like

00:50:21.860 that's not the way it works it's not like our surnames i mean it it kind of is though because

00:50:29.880 you chose rowan and i chose pine yeah so it's sort of a that's sort of us this is such a

00:50:37.940 Tangent. I'm seasonally appropriate right now.

00:50:40.800 Yes, you are.

00:50:42.980 Yeah.

00:50:43.780 But thanks for joining us so far in

00:50:45.740 2023. We'll have another episode out for

00:50:47.860 you just before the end of the year.

00:50:49.500 So we'll save our Happy New Year's for then.

00:50:52.220 Get in touch if you have any feedback,

00:50:54.520 any compliments,

00:50:56.040 any questions, anything

00:50:57.560 that you want us to cover.

00:51:00.380 And 0.99

00:51:00.620 fuck yeah folklore. 1.00

00:51:03.880 Fuck yeah folklore. We'll see you 1.00

00:51:06.120 after Christmas.

00:51:07.940 goodbye

00:51:10.480 I was going to do like a

00:51:13.480 Krampus snort and then I was like no don't

00:51:15.300 looking for your next obsession

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Rowan & Pine: A Feminist Folklore & Mythology Podcast - December 13, 2023

Episode Twenty-Seven： Jack Frost - Hot Guyliner

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