00:06:25.120So because one of the biggest things that I've experienced with Twitter since Elon Musk has been either kind of a sense of uncertainty or confusion where people will contact me and be like, I'm not sure what's going on.
00:06:43.420So you can find me on this other social platform or whatever.
00:06:45.960and then I have had several experiences
00:08:31.000But the amount of people that had left has increased in the fact that has impacted our numbers for a while.
00:08:38.620Not that we don't do too much because I am still fearful of writing anything on any of the social media accounts at all.
00:08:46.080But it's interesting to see how that is fluctuating as well.
00:08:50.680The people who I, again, trusted losing their verification because they didn't pay for it.
00:08:54.520So therefore, I don't know if that's them anymore.
00:08:56.600There's so much like I don't quite know what's reality, what's fake.
00:09:02.000And then the amount of disinformation and people that I'm trying, like have been banned or back on that I'm like, oh, God, why?
00:09:06.880So it's really sad because Twitter has been something that I use to let me know what's going on.
00:09:11.280It's faster than any other news platforms and seeing the truth of what's actually happening, whether it's information about wrongful deaths or protests around the country or around the world.
00:09:23.180So there's a lot that I'm like, ah, I'm kind of lost, but also at the same time entertained because it's going in flames.
00:10:56.140You know, there's a reason why when there's a, you know, mass shooting on a campus, people can follow updates quickly on Twitter.
00:11:03.880And so Twitter is not just this place where public discourse is shaped.
00:11:08.360It is also a place where you just go to get easy, quick access to hopefully reliable information about stuff happening near you.
00:11:15.580And so you can sort of get a sense of why this is a platform where these kind of power struggles happen, right?
00:11:22.960Like, it's not surprising that, like, a person like Donald Trump, Twitter was his platform du jour because you can have such outsized influence in getting a message out there quickly and effectively.
00:11:33.880And I just don't think that we have another social media platform that mimics that so effectively.
00:11:38.480Like, Facebook moves a little bit slower, even though more people are there.
00:11:42.000Instagram, the timeline moves in such an algorithmic way that you only—it's like, if I posted something that was really important, it's not even a guarantee that everybody who follows me would see it, right?
00:11:51.120And so Twitter is such a fast-moving platform,
00:14:34.900And it is a shame like that we're seeing this happen.
00:14:37.660And there have been things, examples of stuff that took off on Twitter and then fundamentally changed our public discourse, whether you use it or not.
00:14:51.160Totally, right? And so this is the drum I will always beat.
00:14:54.680Even if you are not someone who is actively using Twitter, you have felt the cultural impact of movements and conversations that started on Twitter.
00:15:02.220You know, if you think about the way that people who traditionally have not necessarily had a lot of access to power and influence, they can use Twitter to build up that power and that voice and that influence.
00:15:13.660I could give you a million different examples of concrete changes that we're all aware of and probably all felt directly that started on Twitter.
00:15:20.860You know, it's not surprising to me that Twitter has been used as this way to really hold power structures accountable.
00:15:26.960When Tarana Burke started the Me Too movement, you know, she had this movement that she had started for black and brown women and girls who were survivors of sexual violence.
00:15:38.000And when actor Alyssa Milano tweeted about it on Twitter using the hashtag Me Too, that's when it really took off, right?
00:15:44.880And so you see the power that, you know, generating conversations on the platform can have.
00:15:50.880If not for Twitter, I don't know that we would have the Me Too movement the way that it was.
00:15:55.520I don't know that, you know, all of these different powerful abusers would be eventually held to account and that we would be having a national conversation about things like gender and sexual violence.
00:16:05.460You know, another great example is a friend of mine, April Rain, she tweeted about how white the Oscars nominees were and tweeted, Oscars so white, it completely took off.
00:16:15.440People were tweeting things like, Oscars so white, it touches my hair without asking. Oscars so white, it, you know, da-da-da-da-da.
00:16:24.440And because of that conversation, it fundamentally changed how the Oscars were that year. Spike Lee won an Oscar and he said that he doesn't think it would ever have happened without that campaign, which started as a tweet, a hashtag on Twitter. Look at the way that it was instrumental during Arab Spring, right?
00:16:42.960And so, like, there are so many ways and times where, particularly outside of the U.S., Twitter has been used to document, you know, abuse of power and hold that power to account.
00:16:53.880And I think even if you're not on Twitter, you have probably felt or seen the impact of some kind of movement that was started on Twitter.
00:17:01.540You know, and as you're talking about these movements, which are so huge, I had to go back to the original idea of like our lingo changed completely with what is now the hashtag as well, because that actually originated in 2007, according to one of the resources that I looked at on Twitter.
00:17:19.700Like it literally changed how we looked at so much of our conversations online.
00:17:25.760It brought up a way for us to pass messages and bring up big issues with what I would have known as pound sign, which the millennials don't know what that is.
00:18:04.080The way that things that originated on different social media platforms, in this case, Twitter, have changed, fundamentally changed the way that we communicate digitally is fascinating to me.
00:18:13.060I remember when hashtags were first rolled out and previously there wasn't really an easy way
00:18:19.040to quickly figure out what everybody was saying on a particular topic. And I still remember I
00:18:23.580was working as a social media manager at the time when the conversation was like, oh, well,
00:18:27.380should we use hashtags on Facebook? Like, does it work that way? And, you know, people still use
00:18:31.960hashtags. If you go to TikTok, like one of the biggest, fastest growing platforms out there,
00:18:37.000when you scroll down to the bottom of a TikTok, people tend to include hashtags. And so it's
00:18:40.520interesting how this mode of, this particular mode of digital communication did not just stay
00:18:46.240on Twitter, how it really shaped other platforms as well. And I think has become a pivotal way in
00:18:52.640terms of like how we just think about the way that discourse works online. I think before the
00:18:56.980hashtag, we didn't think about it as like, I should be able to pull up a hashtag and get a sense of
00:19:01.740like the diversity of thought and conversation on any one topic. And now that is kind of integral
00:19:06.420to the way that we understand communication online.
00:19:09.220This is something I could nerd out on for hours.
00:19:11.240It's probably not interesting to anybody but me,
00:20:06.420Great question. So this is something, again, that I wish I saw more of in the reporting.
00:20:11.520People kind of gloss over it, and I think it's actually a really big part of the story,
00:20:17.460and it's important to not just gloss over it, which is that, you know,
00:20:20.980Musk's decision to buy Twitter, per his own statements, was rooted in transphobia.
00:20:29.040He'd been talking about buying Twitter for a while, and in 2018, Twitter added intentionally
00:20:34.320misgendering people to their list of prohibited behavior on the platform. So you can't, as a
00:20:39.880means of trying to harm someone, you cannot misgender them. So in the right wing, I guess
00:20:47.680you'll call it a parody site. Even that doesn't seem quite correct, but we'll call it a parody
00:20:53.460website for the sake of conversation. The Babylon Bee, they violated this rule when they tweeted a
00:20:58.920transphobic joke, in scare quotes, that Dr. Rachel Levine, who is the first openly trans
00:21:05.460four-star officer in the military and currently the assistant secretary for health in the U.S.
00:21:10.300Department of Health and Human Services, they made a crack on Twitter that she had been named,
00:21:15.540quote, man of the year, right? And so a lot of the report, first of all, it's wild to me how like
00:21:22.200that level of humor has not evolved since that movie, Ace Ventura, Pet Detective. Like we're
00:21:28.120still in 1992. Like, oh my God, like, get a new joke, people. It is so tired. But a lot of people
00:21:37.160reported that the Babylon Bee was banned from Twitter for this tweet, but that technically is
00:21:41.940not correct. Twitter said that the Babylon Bee could have their account back in 12 hours, but
00:21:48.080that that countdown could not start until they deleted that particular tweet. They refused to
00:21:52.980delete that tweet so they were unable to tweet so they weren't technically banned they kind of
00:21:58.100decided like we are not we are going to die on this hill of this tweet and if we can't tweet
00:22:02.620that's fine so at this time musk was already the biggest shareholder of twitter and he had been
00:22:07.460invited to join its board of directors um in april elon offered to buy twitter and he said that it
00:22:12.180was specifically that babylon b situation that prompted him to do so that like that was the
00:22:18.080final straw watching the Babylon Bee not be able to tweet because they refuse to delete this joke.
00:22:23.880The Babylon Bee confirmed this to the Washington Times saying, we have had some communication with
00:22:28.500Musk. He wanted to confirm that we had in fact been suspended from Twitter. He reached out to
00:22:33.100us before he publicly asked his followers if they think Twitter rigorously adheres to the principle
00:22:37.760of free expression. He even mused on that call that he might need to buy Twitter. So it's, to me,
00:22:43.260it's like pretty disappointing and also very important that Elon Musk's, you know, tenure at
00:22:49.940Twitter really starts with his desire to protect transphobic jokes, in scare quotes, as protected
00:22:58.580speech and free speech on the platform. I think that's terribly disappointing. And I think it's
00:23:03.020related to the ways that we're seeing him, you know, at the rain at Twitter right now.
00:23:07.280That's so disappointing because from what I do understand, he does have a trans child. And in
00:23:12.800like obviously the relationship is not good they disowned musk as their our parental figure but it
00:23:19.340seems like just an attack on them if i were if i were them i would think this as well but it's just
00:23:25.600so disappointing to know that you could really care so little of your own child that you're
00:23:32.940willing to go into 44 billion dollars in debt to go for this yes it is i mean the this is a weird
00:23:41.320aside, but, like, I actually spend a lot of time thinking about Elon Musk's, like, personal
00:23:45.880motivations. I obviously don't know Elon Musk, so I can't, like, it's all speculation, but
00:23:50.920I do think there's something about it. Like, I can't imagine having a trans child and going out
00:24:00.520of my way and spending a lot of money to protect, like, transphobic rhetoric. I cannot imagine it.
00:24:07.040It's difficult for me to put myself in that position, I guess I'll say. I also think that
00:24:10.620it really reflects the ways that particularly trans people have unfortunately kind of become
00:24:18.380this like, like just the existence of trans people trying to live their lives has become this like
00:24:24.880flashpoint. On the one hand, it is surprising to me that he would double down on this having a
00:24:29.880trans child. On the other hand, I do see the ways that just like the existence of trans people
00:24:34.580trying to live their lives has become this incredibly like politicized hot button issue.
00:24:39.180It certainly should not be. But on the other hand, it's not terribly surprising to me that his bid at Twitter starts with that transphobia, that that's where it that that's where it begins.
00:25:17.620Okay, so let's get into this because Elon Musk, he has called himself a free speech absolutist.
00:25:23.940He says in a TED Talk, like, free speech is the ability for someone you don't like to say something you don't like, right?
00:25:31.240And so you might be thinking, oh, well, he would probably be working to foster a climate of open discourse and discussion at Twitter now that he's in charge.
00:25:40.100But you would be wrong if you thought that, right?
00:25:42.300Because that's not what the vibe has been so far.
00:25:44.780And so, first of all, I have to say, like, obviously, when we talk about free speech, really what we are talking about is whether governments can punish people or prevent people from saying what they want to say.
00:25:56.200Right. And so the conversation around free speech has gotten so muddled about like, oh, well, this is censorship.
00:26:01.980It's like, oh, not really. But and there are absolutely free speech issues happening in the United States right now.
00:26:07.620Like when you look at like anti-CRT bills or like don't say gay legislation, like we are in a climate where free expression is under attack specifically from government.
00:26:19.260So like that needs to be clear. But for the sake of conversation, let's talk about free speech as sort of generally fostering a climate of open discourse and debate.
00:26:28.840If we use that definition of free speech, you might be thinking, like, has Elon Musk worked to create that kind of environment since taking over?
00:34:24.080So that Elon Musk, who is famously not an engineer, would think that really cool, super special tech stuff was happening, even though it was just farce, right?
00:34:32.680And so I think some of the allegations coming out of other Elon Musk-run companies are so deeply troubling.
00:34:40.300And I think that these are companies that have an infrastructure to manage these particular ways that Musk has.
00:34:49.120Twitter is not a company that has that.
00:34:50.740And so it's interesting to think, like, what will the vibe at Twitter be like when so much of the staff has been gutted and it's not a company that has been built to manage Elon Musk's quirks?
00:35:02.600Yeah, that's I've heard that, too. And that's so sad that that's like people's mental energy is we got to keep this guy calm and here's how we'll do it.
00:35:13.000hey i'm ruby carr the host of the podcast encore check out our brand new episodes featuring music
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00:39:36.760And so this idea that people on the right have been censored by Twitter or are, you know, getting a raw deal, it is just not borne out by the facts or the, you know, the research that's been done.
00:39:50.820And I also think that it really speaks to this like wider misconception about social media more generally, that there is no real body of academic study or academic thought with regards to social media and that everything that we know about it is either anecdotal or like unknowable.
00:40:08.580So people can just say whatever and be like, oh, yeah, you know how people on the right are censored on social media platforms and not really have it challenged.
00:40:18.220And so I think that it really speaks to this, I don't know, I think it's a holdover from a time when people just saw social media as the internet and not the real world, and thus it was not really worthy of serious examination.
00:40:33.060But there's entire schools of research and bodies of evidence about social media platforms, and all of them say the same thing, that people on the right are not being censored or cracked down on or anything like that.
00:40:47.500And that if anybody tells you that they are, maybe that's their, maybe they feel that way.
00:40:51.780Maybe that's their anecdotal evidence, but they're not.
00:40:54.300And also like even beyond Twitter, people say the same thing about Facebook when in reality, you know, Mark Zuckerberg was personally intervening to keep people like Alex Jones on the platform and personally meeting with right wing leaders.
00:41:22.620I'm not excited about what's coming up because there's conversations about how Facebook is prepping for the next election, presidential election, and they are way too excited for the return of Donald Trump.
00:41:35.860But, you know, I find it interesting, too, because even with the COVID misinformation, it took forever for them to even recognize the misinformation and even talking about, OK, how are we going to do that without banning everybody because they didn't want to?
00:41:50.040And so first they put the little warning things to all of it.
00:41:52.820And you're like, it took a lot for a person to be banned.
00:41:55.620It took a lot to even have any of that warning to be put on there because we went through a full year, I feel like, of so much misinformation, so many bad advices about how you can treat yourself to get rid of COVID.
00:42:08.000It was, I felt like an ongoing battle and it still kind of is.
00:42:11.800And it's kind of ironic that they were like, they absolutely hate us when there were so much fight to be put up from the people, especially scientists, to be like, can you please control this?
00:42:22.220Because this is really bad for the health of our nation.
00:42:25.620Totally. And what's so interesting about that is that something that people say a lot, like low-meaning people will say a lot, is like, you remember in the early days of COVID, we didn't know about masks.
00:42:35.420Like it was like we were getting a lot of, like for a while it was like, oh, only medical professionals need them or only this.
00:42:39.800And so like, and then eventually it was like, oh, it's masks. We all need masks.
00:42:42.800People will, I think kind of understandably, conflate medical professionals getting more familiar with how the virus worked and all of that, which is confusing, right?
00:42:54.400Like, it's like having one day having someone be like, oh, you don't need to wear a mask.
00:42:57.760And the next day having to be like, oh, wear a mask.
00:42:59.220Like, I can understand why people are confused and why that looks like, you know, like, oh, so why is that?
00:43:07.760You know, and it's like there's a difference between medical professionals, you know, getting more up to date on a novel virus and people who are spreading clearly, provably false information.
00:43:20.940And I think that unfortunately with COVID, because it was like a new virus, it created a climate that really made it easy to conflate those things.
00:43:28.880And so I think it made it easy to not challenge provable, demonstrable lies about COVID and lies about COVID that were intentional.
00:43:37.880So like disinformation spread with malicious intent by bad actors.
00:43:41.840I think that the climate of having a novel virus where people were still getting up to date on what was going on with it made it easy to not crack down on it.
00:43:50.220And I think it's just like a reality of the way that inaccurate information on social media works is that there's always going to be that grain of truth.
00:43:58.460It's like, oh, well, why is this not misinformation?
00:44:00.840And I can understand why people raise that.
00:44:03.500But I think it like did us a real disservice to cracking down on things that we know are just provably incorrect statements.
00:44:56.220Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that makes me really sad about what's happening to Twitter,
00:45:00.340as we were talking about at the beginning,
00:45:02.040because there was a tweet that went viral a couple weeks ago from a reporter that was like,
00:45:08.940you know, World War III could be breaking out,
00:45:10.580and here I am not sure what is reality on Twitter anymore,
00:45:13.340because it is such a big source for news.
00:45:15.800And that whole thing with COVID, it did get really messy.
00:45:19.020And it was an example of an interesting and kind of like terrifying example, I guess, of like how does this platform manage this information, perhaps misinformation or disinformation, when, you know, the scientists are researching and it is changing.
00:45:39.140And I think because it gets so, a lot of it gets convoluted and there's so many like bad faith conversations that can happen on platforms like that, that it is, it's just like one of the, it's an interesting case study to see how Twitter kind of did deal with that and how long it took.
00:46:00.100And I think that's another thing that's really upsetting about this is, as you alluded to, Samantha, it felt like we were making progress and it was so hard fought.
00:46:10.500And now we're seeing like a reversal of all of these things that were, it felt like, oh, this is a step forward.
00:46:19.860It's going to be a platform where a lot of this misinformation won't be as prevalent.
00:46:24.760It will still be there, but not as prevalent, but it's getting reversed.
00:49:06.600It doesn't just come out of the blue unless you're doing something really egregious.
00:49:11.100And so these are the people that Elon Musk is going to be welcoming back.
00:49:14.400And he says that he's declaring amnesty next week for banned accounts.
00:49:17.420But at the same time, he is also cracking down on accounts that are, you know, associated with, like, lefty politics as well.
00:49:26.340So, for instance, Chad Loder, the founder of the cybersecurity specialty company called Habituate, his account was banned from the site after he used Twitter on November 23rd to warn users about an alleged data breach on Twitter.
00:49:39.140Loader is known for, like, researching and reporting on right-wing extremism,
00:49:43.220including unmasking a Proud Boy member who attacked a police officer during the insurrection.
00:49:47.980And that report was actually cited by the Department of Justice.
00:49:50.300So, like, a fairly, you know, known person who writes about things like cybersecurity and how to be safe on Twitter
00:49:57.840and right-wing extremism was one of the first accounts banned while Musk was talking about this amnesty
00:50:04.980and, you know, having Twitter be this place for free speech.
00:50:09.540Interestingly enough, when Sam Harris asked Elon Musk about bringing back Alex Jones,
00:50:13.580who you might remember made up egregious lies about babies who died in Sandy Hook
00:50:18.420and the parents who grieved them, you know, said that they were paid actors and all of that,
00:50:24.680My firstborn child died in my arms. I felt his last heartbeat.
00:50:28.420I have no mercy for anyone who would use the deaths of children for gain, politics, or fame.
00:50:33.420And I actually think that that was one of the more transparent, honest statements from Musk about how he sees his role in moderation, right?
00:50:42.620Like, he can personally identify with the pain of losing a child because Elon Musk, unfortunately, has lost a child.
00:50:49.740And so it allows him to have a sense of how painful it would be to be a grieving parent grieving that loss and then also be harassed and called a liar on top of that.
00:50:58.380And so he's going to make those moderation decisions based on that lived experience.
00:51:02.600It's interesting because I think it totally puts to rest that Elon Musk is like a free speech absolutist because it reveals what's pretty obvious, that these decisions are just made up by him based on like what he does or doesn't like, which is fine.
00:51:15.300But I also think that like because he can personally identify with losing a child, he is going to moderate from that lived personal experience.
00:51:24.940But what about experiences that Elon Musk has not personally had, right? So like the experience of somebody like Elliot Page or somebody like Dr. Rachel Levine, who was just a trans person trying to live their life, or the experience of being like a woman of color on a platform like Twitter, who we know are more harassed than our counterparts, right?
00:51:43.100Or what about being a person with disabilities
00:51:44.900who relies on the platform to build community, right?
00:51:47.840Like, because Elon Musk has no personal lived experience
00:52:10.200He can only see his lived experience as real, and everybody else's is just theoretical or trivial or doesn't really matter.1.00
00:52:19.760And I don't think that platforms like Twitter should be moderated based on a white billionaire, what is within the scope of his personal lived experience, because there's so many lived experiences out there that he has no idea of.
00:52:35.240I mean, not everybody gets the experience having people on your staff to make you feel comfortable, including, like, avoiding the color orange, I guess.
00:52:44.960That's a whole different level of experience.
00:52:47.320And, you know, not to dedicate the fact that he did lose a child and that was heartful.
00:52:52.500Like, his wife, ex-wife, came back and was like, dude, you didn't hold that child.
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01:00:00.160You know, if not for Twitter, we wouldn't have movements like Me Too, you know, which was not just something happening on Twitter.
01:00:06.000It shifted our entire culture and our entire, you know, the progress of our culture, I would say.
01:00:11.800For instance, you'll have probably heard of Shanquilla Robinson, who was a 25-year-old Black woman from North Carolina who traveled to Mexico on vacation with a group of people and ended up dead.
01:00:22.620The people that she traveled with tried to say that it was alcohol poisoning.
01:00:26.080But later, a video emerged of one of them getting into a pretty brutal physical altercation with her.
01:00:32.480Now, there's actual movement in the case.
01:00:35.080And her mother says that it's because of Black Twitter.
01:00:38.000She says that if not for Black folks tweeting about it, raising the alarm about it, generating awareness about it,
01:00:43.220she said that she was having a really hard time getting any kind of national attention on the story of her daughter's death.
01:00:49.100And so she actually says it was Twitter that did that.
01:00:51.360And so in that case, this rapper, Amina Cain, shared Shanquilla's photo on Twitter on November 9th.
01:00:59.420It got almost 20,000 retweets and then later spread to other social media platforms and got so much more attention to her death.
01:01:06.420And Sherry Williams, who is a professor of race, media, and communication at American University, she put it really well in this interview with NBC News.
01:03:06.180I have, I guess I, the platforms that I see people going to are Hive and Mastodon.
01:03:15.980I'm still trying to figure them all out.
01:03:18.240They all have their issues, but yeah, people have been talking about moving to Hive, Mastodon, Post, all of these different platforms all have their issues.
01:03:26.900Like there's been big conversations about the funding structure and the moderation structure.
01:03:31.900So I will be trying them all out myself, and I'm happy to report back and let y'all know, like, what worked, what didn't work, what's a flop, what's a bop.
01:05:29.680if you would like to contact us you can
01:05:31.680or email us Stephanie and MomStuff at iHeartMedia
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01:05:38.180thanks as always to our super producer Christina
01:05:40.280thank you and thanks to you for listening
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01:05:56.740I survived nine months in captivity and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive
01:06:06.900what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. Every
01:06:12.920week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled,
01:06:18.320and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
01:06:23.500Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:06:31.880If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
01:06:37.660Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
01:06:45.960Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture
01:06:49.440with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.