There Are No Girls on the Internet - #FreeBritney as a successful online movement

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00:02:31.880 Almost 14 years ago, a court deemed pop icon Britney Spears unable to take care of herself, 0.98

00:02:38.080 placing her in a conservatorship that stripped her of control of nearly every aspect of her life,

00:02:42.940 including her finances, her ability to drive a car or use an ATM, or make decisions about her own body.

00:02:49.660 Last month, a judge ruled to end that conservatorship that Britney and her fans have long maintained

00:02:54.540 was abusive and traumatic.

00:02:56.440 Britney spoke up against the conservatorship to a judge.

00:02:59.060 Here's what she had to say.

00:03:00.480 I truly believe this conservatorship is abusive

00:03:02.540 and that we can sit here all day and say,

00:03:04.240 oh, conservatorships are here to help people.

00:03:06.400 Britney's release from the conservatorship

00:03:08.040 was sparked in part by the Free Britney movement,

00:03:10.880 spearheaded by Britney superfan Megan Radford.

00:03:13.580 The movement began in 2009

00:03:14.880 and aimed to draw attention to the singer's conservatorship.

00:03:18.460 Largely organized online,

00:03:20.040 the movement was made up of fans and advocates

00:03:21.860 from all over the world,

00:03:22.880 pushing to end what they said was a predatory conservatorship,

00:03:26.380 including a Change.org petition for Britney's right to hire her own lawyer

00:03:29.420 that got over 250,000 signatures. 0.91

00:03:32.780 In Britney's first Instagram post after her conservatorship was voided,

00:03:36.600 she wrote,

00:03:37.280 The Free Britney movement. You guys rock.

00:03:39.860 Honestly, my voice was muted and threatened for so long,

00:03:42.660 and I wasn't able to speak up or say anything.

00:03:44.900 I honestly think you guys saved my life in a way, 100%.

00:03:48.140 But even though Free Britney was a pretty successful movement,

00:03:51.260 largely organized online, it hasn't really gotten the same kind of attention as other online

00:03:56.780 movements. I sat down with Melissa Ryan, friend of the show, online organizing expert, and CEO

00:04:02.700 and editor of Control Alt-Right Delete, a popular newsletter dissecting culture, extremism,

00:04:07.500 technology, and the internet. So Melissa, you have been covering and following the Free Britney

00:04:12.320 movement for a while, and I think that you have been covering it with a seriousness that I think

00:04:17.000 it took a while for other folks to get to. What initially attracted you to this movement? Like,

00:04:21.600 why were you following it so seriously? Well, I start, I mean, I think I was aware of it for a

00:04:26.560 while. And I thought of it just sort of like, oh, a thing that music fans are doing and is somewhat

00:04:32.080 interesting. But the New York Times documentary was really, it was staggering to me, both that

00:04:38.260 this had been going on so long that they were able to get folks on so many folks on the record,

00:04:42.360 but also that this online movement had been growing and building for some time and wasn't

00:04:48.480 necessarily being taken seriously. And there was, you know, they were clearly able to generate a lot

00:04:54.420 of press stories. They were getting attention from other celebrities, but there just wasn't much

00:04:59.460 sort of conversation among the serious people who love to talk about digital and tech things.

00:05:04.800 And then when Spears did her first testimony in court, a couple of things became obvious. One

00:05:11.500 was her fans had clear, you know, this movement and her fans had clearly been part of what gave

00:05:16.720 her the courage to speak up and to demand to be heard in a public forum. But two, that the

00:05:23.140 organizing had worked, that these folks, you know, whatever they were trying to get, they had

00:05:29.240 scored just a huge win because none of this, I think, would have happened without their years

00:05:35.040 and years of rallying online. And still, they were sort of treated in the press like, oh,

00:05:40.620 these conspiracy theorist fans or these folks that have, you know, no life. And it was very

00:05:46.680 disconcerting because this was a huge win. I mean, you and I both work in politics. You don't get

00:05:53.180 wins like this, like they got. Absolutely. I mean, I really kind of see it as one of those

00:05:59.520 classic stories that we cover a lot on this show, where at first people are dismissed as, you know,

00:06:04.640 oh, they're crazy. They don't know what they're talking about, all of that. And then they're kind

00:06:08.860 have proven right. And I feel like the Free Britney movement is one of those stories where

00:06:14.460 the most vocal folks were dismissed. Why do you think that is? Why was it so easy to discount

00:06:19.380 these people? I think because a lot of her fans were women. And I think because a lot of her fans 1.00

00:06:23.920 were LGBTQ. And I think there was the perception that a lot of them were very young because we

00:06:29.640 think of music fans being young. Although, you know, Britney is 40 now, where I think she turned

00:06:35.520 40 last week. So it stands to reason that her fans are probably not as young. I doubt there

00:06:40.580 are many teenagers that are listening to Britney Spears, except in the context of like their

00:06:45.260 parents' 90s station. Maybe I could be wrong. I do think there's a perception that the people

00:06:51.540 who are rallying around her and who are really intensely interested in her are just teeny

00:06:56.700 boppers online. And I think that speaks to how we belittle and cast aside people who are

00:07:04.740 marginalized as, you know, just teenagers online or just a bunch of women collecting online as

00:07:10.220 opposed to this movement that really was lifting up questions about, you know, disability justice,

00:07:16.560 reproductive justice. I see this story as hitting so many intersections of the work that you and I

00:07:22.220 do as progressive organizers, you know, lifting up, you know, if somebody like Britney Spears can

00:07:27.480 be mistreated in this way, what does that say for other people who might have disabilities? What does

00:07:31.520 it safer, other folks who want body autonomy and control over the reproductive choices. 0.98

00:07:36.680 You know, the second New York Times documentary that came out about Britney Spears, for me, 0.99

00:07:42.540 was a real tech story about the surveillance apparatus that controlled her in her home.

00:07:48.100 You know, I think it's really fascinating how it took kind of a while for folks to get

00:07:52.940 on board with talking about this story in a way that really highlighted those important

00:07:59.000 issues.

00:07:59.400 Yeah, I think it would be interesting to dig into how folks who participated in this at various levels, how her story resonated with them, whether it was the conservatorship angle, whether it was the reproductive freedom angle, whether it was the way that women so often get dismissed or there's when women get so much access to capital and power, there are almost always efforts to try to take it away from them.

00:08:22.440 Because I am guessing for a lot of folks, it's not just that they like Britney Spears' music, but they saw something or they related to something that was happening.

00:08:31.980 In 2019, Britney's Graham, a podcast dedicated to deep dives and close readings into Britney Spears' Instagram posts, received a voicemail from a paralegal who said he was connected to Britney's conservatorship.

00:08:44.260 According to him, Britney was forced into a mental health facility against her will.

00:08:48.300 This created a firestorm of new support for ending the conservatorship. 0.99

00:08:51.680 these, you know, women who had started this podcast devoted to Brittany's Instagram, 1.00

00:08:57.380 which I totally get. I now follow Brittany's Instagram. And I love that it's like a combination 1.00

00:09:02.080 of her dancing and middle-aged mom memes. I don't know. I just, I spend so much time on Brittany's

00:09:07.220 Instagram now. It's amazing. Just if we're going to have that little tangent, like I wish I had

00:09:12.160 known about it years ago. But, you know, and that they were, you know, because they had this podcast,

00:09:17.680 You know, someone trusted them enough to leave them this voicemail saying, you know, I used to work for this law firm and something that's happening to her isn't right.

00:09:25.920 And just that they were able to build that much trust with people who were in her orbit just by, you know, being fans and the content they were creating.

00:09:33.660 It's fascinating to me.

00:09:35.480 It really is.

00:09:36.160 And I've been following her on Instagram for a while and I love it.

00:09:39.020 I love her spinning dance moves. 0.94

00:09:42.000 Love it.

00:09:42.600 And even after the conservatorship has been lifted, just she's using her Instagram to document these little things that I take for granted, like she made a post about getting to have an iPad and how that how free that made her feel.

00:09:56.660 And I think it does an interesting job of illustrating what, you know, what the abuse of people who have disabilities can look like, where it's like the little things that she didn't get to have access to, didn't get to just like be able to be on her iPad.

00:10:13.600 I think it can really put a face or an image on these issues.

00:10:18.260 Or withdraw cash from an ATM.

00:10:19.640 That was one of them where she talked about being able to get $300 from an ATM.

00:10:22.940 And it's just sort of you're so happy that she has that now.

00:10:26.660 But it's like, oh, my God, 13 years of not being able to live as an adult while you are earning the money to pay all of your captors.

00:10:35.800 Let's take a quick break.

00:10:42.500 Behind every night spent making the kids lunches, there's a lot of suspense.

00:10:46.680 Will they finally eat the veggies?

00:10:48.160 Will the pesto survive the first bite?

00:10:50.000 Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full, or come home at all?

00:10:54.280 And will you finish Episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers?

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00:13:46.880 And we're back.

00:13:48.540 In the final days of Britney Spears' conservatorship, something strange started to happen.

00:13:54.060 Extremist right-wing lawmakers like Florida Congressional Representative Matt Goetz started speaking out on her behalf.

00:14:00.120 Matt Goetz, while in the middle of an ongoing sex trafficking investigation,

00:14:04.500 spoke at an in-person Free Britney rally.

00:14:07.320 I really didn't understand what was happening.

00:14:09.480 But Melissa says extremists co-opting cultural moments for their own agendas is nothing new.

00:14:14.560 One of the things that you really did a nice job of pointing out is this weird thing that happened

00:14:19.160 where at the height of the Free Britney movement, when there was all this momentum,

00:14:23.600 we saw all of these right-wing, far-right extremists and trolls,

00:14:27.580 i guess i would say co-opting it there was this time where matt gets was speaking at a free britney

00:14:34.220 rally and i showed up at a rally what do you like what do you think was going on with that like what

00:14:39.860 was happening that was something i remember seeing that in my newsfeed and being like my brain can't

00:14:43.900 even comprehend what this is i need to just move on like what was that i mean i think i tend to

00:14:49.740 think of matt gates as a professional troll and sometimes congressman like once in a while he

00:14:54.060 shows up to work at Congress. But most of the time, he seems to be like, where can I get the

00:14:58.620 most attention for myself, which is why he like goes to Wyoming to campaign against Wiz Cheney and,

00:15:04.800 you know, the Free Britney rally. And so I think he just saw a moment and was like,

00:15:09.600 how can I exploit it to get attention for myself? And I think more broadly, that's sort of what the

00:15:14.420 far right does. They don't really build culture, they steal culture. You know, it's like you see,

00:15:19.620 they try to appropriate everything from Pepe the frog from you see them with,

00:15:22.760 with Karen and with free Brittany, they saw an opportunity.

00:15:26.880 And one of the most amusing things to me was when her, her lawyer,

00:15:31.680 we should definitely talk about the lawyer too.

00:15:33.920 Cause that guy just looks like Atticus Finch.

00:15:36.260 Like they just pulled him out of central casting.

00:15:38.100 But when her lawyer was talking after the conservatorship ended and he very

00:15:41.940 specifically said everyone from the far right to the left is supporting

00:15:47.280 Brittany now.

00:15:47.880 And I do appreciate how her lawyer like took advantage of the fact that, you know, everybody and their mother was sort of glomming on to his client.

00:15:55.520 Yeah. Do you think that we're going to see more of that kind of thing?

00:15:59.560 Like, is that is that a common tactic of extremists to just whatever conversation is happening? 0.91

00:16:06.100 How can I jump into that conversation and co-opt it for my own, you know, my own fucked up agenda? 0.96

00:16:12.840 Yeah, I mean, you see it a lot. And again, like these folks, especially ones who are elected to, I think, you know, I'm especially obsessed with like these extremists who've managed to get themselves elected to office. They don't really have any interest in serving their constituencies. They really are like constantly auditioning for Fox News, for Trump to try to create viral moments for themselves. 0.96

00:16:33.900 so you know i think marjorie taylor green was another one who all of a sudden cared about free

00:16:38.300 britney um there was a congressman in south carolina who did um a free britney bill about

00:16:43.880 reproductive about not being able to force someone to have birth control probably not realizing that

00:16:49.420 i know i know i was like oh dude you're so close so close you have no idea um but yeah i mean you're

00:16:56.060 gonna see a lot of that with pop culture moments and we've been seeing it i mean how many movies

00:17:00.620 that star women and people of color 1.00

00:17:02.980 have the right freaked out about. 0.99

00:17:05.300 You know, you see that with so much culture.

00:17:07.580 And again, like they're too lazy

00:17:09.680 and too not creative to create their own culture.

00:17:12.180 So when it comes to culture,

00:17:13.200 like they're always going to try to steal it.

00:17:16.360 Yeah, that's something I've really been stuck on

00:17:19.680 is the way that pop culture

00:17:22.600 and things that we used to think of as like,

00:17:25.280 you know, diversions,

00:17:27.100 how that is kind of become a new battle.

00:17:29.140 I guess I won't say new battlefield, but just another battlefield to have these wars play out on and to have people try to make a name for themselves.

00:17:36.740 Like I think about the whole controversy around the movie Cuties, things like that, where we're no longer having conversations about the film, the art, whatever.

00:17:44.920 It's just a proxy for people to co-opt this conversation and to make sure that the only chatter around it is in bad faith.

00:17:52.720 I think there's such an anger on the right because culturally, you know, politically and in terms of raw political power, they they are winning. They're winning big time. I don't think there would be any debate there. But in terms of pop culture, they're losing, I think, worse than they've ever lost.

00:18:08.500 I mean, if you look at, you know, all of these entertainment conglomerates, they're working hard to have more diverse voices. You're seeing more writers of color, more casts of color. You know, we're not where we need to be, but it's certainly better than, you know, when you and I were young people.

00:18:23.640 And they're just not able to create the same sort of pop culture moments the way that they have been with like, if you think back to like the Super Bowl with Janet Jackson, if you think the things that the parent television council would get upset about, you know, it's just very hard to get folks to care.

00:18:39.640 And corporate America has figured out for better or worse, there's good and bad to this, but they have figured out that more diversity and more inclusion makes them more money because they're reaching more audiences.

00:18:48.820 So the right is just not going to have that mass media power that they have been used

00:18:53.380 to having, and they don't have the ability to influence conversation through mass media

00:18:57.180 the way they have in the past.

00:18:59.220 That's such an interesting point.

00:19:00.300 I could see a lot of folks on the right, yeah, that the understandable reaction to that is

00:19:06.760 rage.

00:19:07.480 Like, I don't have the influence in this space I used to, so I'm going to rail against it

00:19:13.260 or co-opt it if I can.

00:19:15.160 It's all so disingenuous.

00:19:16.680 And it's like, as you said, it's not it's not creating culture. It's not it's not creating culture to co-opt another movement. It's not creating culture to, you know, turn a piece of film or a piece of art or a television show into a proxy war for your, you know, rage to play out in. It's it's in the absence of creating culture. I feel this is all they have.

00:19:39.820 Yeah.

00:19:41.520 Kind of sad when you put it that way.

00:19:43.120 It is sad. And I actually don't think we recognize enough just how badly the right is losing the culture war. And again, that's because they have so much power politically. But it's an interesting disconnect. And it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

00:19:55.640 Yeah. So I guess one of my last questions for you is as an online organizer and somebody who cares about the Internet, are there takeaways that you see that we can glean from this, you know, pretty, I would say, successful free Britney online organizing moment?

00:20:09.540 Yeah, I mean, I think you can't underestimate the power of Internet movements to create not just political but cultural change. I think, yeah, well, we've we talked about how we're going to continue to see the right like try and fail to co-opt things like this.

00:20:26.620 But mostly, I just hope that I want to see what these folks who are involved in Free

00:20:31.700 Britney do next.

00:20:32.860 There was a lot of talk when I've seen quotes in the press of we're going to get more involved 1.00

00:20:36.840 in getting the conservatorship law changed and reproductive rights. 0.85

00:20:41.360 So it'll be interesting to see what the hardcore folks do around it.

00:20:45.720 And then I'm also I'm kind of interested to, you know, Britney Spears is someone who's

00:20:49.440 had a career of not being political.

00:20:51.940 Like, I think you, you know, she's from a red state.

00:20:54.340 She is very careful, I think, always in how she talks about politics and issues.

00:21:00.980 I think she's been very smart about that in her career.

00:21:03.500 So it'll be interesting to see what she ends up doing if she wants to be an advocate for

00:21:09.240 disability rights or for women's rights. 1.00

00:21:12.060 She may not want to. 1.00

00:21:12.820 And by the way, she has every right to just live her life and not be the leader of a movement. 0.76

00:21:16.760 But if she wants to do more with it, she clearly has a community that's ready to engage with

00:21:22.600 her.

00:21:22.740 So that'll be interesting as well.

00:21:24.340 Yeah, it's going to be really interesting to see. And I'm with you. I think I'm one of those people that if there's one thing I believe in, it is the power of women and LGBTQ folks and people of color who are fired up and have access to the Internet and social media.

00:21:38.340 Like big things are possible, things I never there are so many things in a million years I would have never thought I would see.

00:21:45.180 But because somebody had the Internet, they were able to make it happen.

00:21:49.280 Somebody had the Internet and a voice. And I think this is a great example of the power of that.

00:21:53.700 And, you know, especially now when we're all kind of living our lives online more and more because of COVID, I think it's going to be an exciting time to see how that bears out.

00:22:03.220 Yeah. So where can folks keep up with all the amazing work that you're doing, Melissa?

00:22:07.240 it sure well i am on twitter at melissa ryan um i also have uh my newsletter control alt right

00:22:15.160 delete which is free and comes out every sunday uh you can either find that uh in my twitter bio

00:22:21.080 or you can go to control alt right delete dot com control alt right delete is the most i mean i get

00:22:28.300 so many newsletters it's like the most useful newsletter it's like if i want to know what's

00:22:31.620 happening on the internet and like what i should know it's the most useful newsletter so folks

00:22:35.940 should definitely sign up oh that means so much especially coming from you that's awesome

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00:23:32.960 personality welcome home pro society is a weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for

00:23:39.240 anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse each

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There Are No Girls on the Internet - December 17, 2021

#FreeBritney as a successful online movement

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