00:04:47.120I have just witnessed like way too much misinformation and general kind of bigotry and hatred on that platform to then go ahead and be like, oh, I just love how he interviews people.
00:05:01.100So, personally, yeah, I'm not a huge fan.
00:05:08.580A few months ago, before this Spotify issue was really in the news, I was at a hotel bar
00:05:16.180with my producer, Mike, and I don't remember where we were coming back from, but we were
00:05:20.360getting a drink and there was this very obnoxious guy at the bar, like drunk, loud, obnoxious.
00:05:24.940And he was trying to really engage us in conversation and we were sort of not having it.
00:05:29.000And I think for some reason we were talking about Burning Man, Mike and I, and this guy was like, oh, hey, I have a buddy who goes to Burning Man with Joe Rogan every year.
00:05:39.240And we looked at each other and Mike just went, gross, why would you tell us this?
00:05:43.260so he clearly had no idea that we also have a podcast basically which i feel like is a little
00:05:52.160bit of like an anti joe rogan like a podcast where we talk about the dangers of things like
00:05:57.400misinformation conspiracy theories extremism like he could not have picked a worst a worst
00:06:02.340way to try to impress us oh yeah i mean your podcast is literally there are no girls on the
00:06:07.480internet. And Joe Rogan is literally, we have no girls on this show. Yes, exactly, exactly.
00:06:13.540So, you know, what did you think about seeing all of these high profile folks from Neil Young,
00:06:19.120India Ari, now Roxane Gay, removing their content from Spotify in reaction to their,
00:06:24.960you know, really unwillingness to do anything about the misinformation that he spread so often?
00:06:30.120Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think it's great. I think it's been surprisingly powerful. I wasn't
00:06:36.320necessarily expecting it to have as big of like a ripple in the in the water as it did what were
00:06:45.560your thoughts on their i'm not even going to say that they renewed like it just seemed like they
00:06:50.620were saying like oh we do have a covid misinformation policy but it wasn't for me i didn't really feel
00:06:57.080like it was the kind of policy that you would expect a platform of that size to be putting out
00:07:01.480in now the second year of a pandemic. Yeah, you would expect it to be a little bit more
00:07:07.240coherent and thought through. And the fact that it took all of this pressure to get the
00:07:13.460tiniest bit of transparency into the existing policy that they had, it says quite a bit about
00:07:21.220how reluctant these platforms are to be transparent about their policies. And then,
00:07:26.820So really what they did is they published their existing policies, which I'm going to also say like weren't, they were quite lenient to the point where it seems as though you're able to say that like the vaccines cause death, but just as long as you don't say that they were designed to do so.
00:07:47.280And, you know, they don't really cover wearing masks and they don't cover a large, large range of medical misinformation that Joe Rogan has spread on his show.
00:07:59.100Great to see the transparency, but I would like to see more coherent and thought out policies.
00:08:06.680And then in addition to that, they just like said they were going to put content warnings on misinformation, which isn't really shown to be effective.
00:08:16.400Like, I don't consider that a solid strategy to combat misinformation, especially not when you're literally funding that misinformation yourself.
00:08:26.960So again, it seems to illustrate to me that Spotify is kind of hoping that folks won't ask too many questions about the nature of the relationship they have with Joe Rogan, because I feel like it's one thing for Twitter to put a content warning on a user's tweet, right?
00:08:45.980To say like, oh, well, just so you know, this tweet contains inaccurate information.
00:08:49.900It's another thing for Spotify to invite Joe Rogan to exclusively make content with them, pay him handsomely for that content, be the only place where you can find that content, and then kind of pretend like, oh, we can just put a content warning on it.
00:09:05.540That's as far as we can go in terms of dealing with it.
00:09:08.700Like, that seems like the bare minimum to the point where it's almost meaningless.
00:09:13.960And, you know, I do think that they're kind of hoping that people won't ask too many questions so that they can continue to treat Joe Rogan like any other individual content creator that they have on their platform, as opposed to what they actually are, which is like his publisher, I think.
00:09:32.720Yeah. Did you see the leaked speech published a few hours ago where the CEO went into a whole spiel about whether or not they are a publisher or a platform?
00:09:47.640And it's like, I mean, even if you were just a platform, you still should have some responsibility for what is on your platform.
00:09:57.400but you also are specifically funding like sponsoring this particular content on your
00:10:05.480platform so you might not have editorial control but you still have some liability there I think
00:10:11.400that the statement they released was very much like an attempt to make the problem go away
00:10:16.720just really hoping that this inaction looked enough like action that everybody would wave
00:10:25.300their hands and be like, yeah, that's fine, I guess. I have seen a lot of toothless tech
00:10:32.400doublespeak in my day that really means nothing. That was really, that was like the Mona Lisa of
00:10:37.800toothless tech, meaningless doublespeak PR, right? Like, let's say a bunch of things. Let's sort of
00:10:44.900say like, we're listening. We hear you. Definitely make a nod to free speech. Say like, make a nod
00:10:50.040to the fact that you're not going to cave to other people's voices. It really hit all the marks. And
00:10:54.480I do. I agree with you. I think that they're kind of hoping that this problem will sort of go away
00:10:59.340on its own or that like Joe Rogan put out that video statement. They put out a statement. I
00:11:04.540think that they're hoping that that's going to be enough. You know, The Rock has chimed in and said
00:11:08.500like, perfectly put, like, let's have the kilo on your show soon, Joe Rogan. And I think it's just,
00:11:15.220I think for me, it's really depressing because I believe that Spotify is reestablishing a
00:11:21.680precedent. And that precedent is that if you are like, there is a market for lies. Like if you
00:11:28.700tell lies and spread misinformation and extremism, there is a market for that. And so I think the
00:11:34.080question we need to ask ourselves is like, are we comfortable with our media, our media landscape
00:11:40.120really handsomely rewarding and amplifying lies for profit? And I think it's done so much to make
00:11:47.260our media is so much more toxic. Absolutely. And you think about how Joe Rogan really
00:11:53.320promotes controversial figures. And of course, he claims he doesn't intend to do that. But like
00:12:00.080controversy brings in eyes and ears. And like, it's quite clear that Rogan has a history of
00:12:08.740platforming people who promote misinformation, promote bigotry, climate change denial,
00:12:16.440a lot of transphobia like so much transphobia uh it's and it's not just like allowed it's being
00:12:28.880paid for like for exclusivity like spotify was like we want this and we want you to be special
00:12:36.360so that you attract more users to our platform like they he serves a role there to bring more
00:12:41.760users to them and make money for them. And they are fundamentally profiting off of that kind of
00:12:47.300controversy. And I'm very frustrated. It is frustrating. And, you know, you brought up a
00:12:55.080good point. Obviously, the conversation that's really been in the news right now is COVID
00:13:00.540misinformation. But I guess my question is, I have listened to a lot of Joe Rogan's show.
00:13:06.620I know that the transphobia is is so alarming. Like the amount of lies about trans people that that him and his guests traffic in is pretty appalling. The climate denialism, you know, he he did apologize for this.
00:13:22.160But when he said that leftists were the ones setting wildfires out in the West, right, like things like this, I guess my question is, why do you think that it's the COVID misinformation specifically that really sticks when we talk about this issue?
00:13:36.160But the lies that he tells about trans people, the lies that he tells about climate don't seem to stick quite as much, because in my perspective, those those things are also medical misinformation and public health misinformation.
00:13:48.420Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of systemic inequality behind it. I think it's, I'm happy to see that we are having this public conversation about his medical misinformation on the platform.
00:14:06.900But it is fundamentally really limited to COVID. And it does seem like people are more motivated by the pandemic than necessarily racial issues or trans issues.
00:14:24.700And I think that speaks to what the public fundamentally cares about. And I hate that.
00:14:32.060we are up against so much when it comes to inequality that we really have to, when it
00:14:38.780comes to an issue that pertains to marginalized people, we really have to shout for people to
00:14:43.480hear us. We really have to scream for people to hear us. And I think that COVID, you know,
00:14:49.080I think it's easier for some folks to see a demonstrable untruth about COVID, like, oh,
00:14:55.100young people shouldn't get vaccinated and say, oh, that's a problem. But see the way that Joe
00:15:01.300Rogan will tell a demonstrable untruth about trans people. Like he has said that trans people1.00
00:15:06.080do not experience real discrimination. They bring it on themselves. That's demonstrably untrue.0.84
00:15:10.400I think that there's something that makes it easier for folks to respond when it's about COVID.
00:15:16.620And it's just easier for it to go unchecked, unacknowledged, or for maybe people to say like,
00:15:21.160that's just his opinion. I think that it shows how much further we have to go in terms of helping
00:15:29.380people understand that misinformation is often identity-based. It's often racialized and gendered
00:15:34.560in this way. And it's really, really harmful, like real world harm, the same way that COVID
00:15:38.720health misinformation is. Yeah. And I mean, and we think about how a lot of this criticism started
00:15:44.840was with like doctors and scientists and science educators who already had existing platforms
00:15:50.840and are already, you know, exist within this realm of privilege and having their voices
00:15:57.080elevated, which is great. I'm happy to have doctors and scientists' voices elevated,
00:16:03.980but I do think it speaks to just how their voices are treated as, you know, more worthy of attention
00:16:14.120than necessarily large groups of marginalized people who have been speaking out against Joe
00:16:21.340rogan for ages now oh that's such a good point let's take a quick break
00:16:30.460behind every night spent making the kids lunches there's a lot of suspense will they finally eat
00:16:41.580the veggies will the pesto survive the first bite will the lunchbox come home empty half full or
00:16:47.220come home at all and will you finish episode eight before you're done slicing the cucumbers
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00:17:36.080if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your personality welcome home
00:17:42.260This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:17:54.720I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:18:01.820I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
00:18:04.960From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:18:11.740It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
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00:18:28.440Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:19:42.800Feminists, Black women, queer folks, trans folks, they have been saying for the longest time, and also me personally as a podcaster,
00:19:50.000I've been saying like this Joe Rogan's like his shtick is harmful and I feel like people didn't
00:19:57.440listen and it's tale as old as time like folks don't listen until it's kind of everyone's problem
00:20:01.900that is something that we talk about extensively on this show um but I also think there's this
00:20:06.680idea that I think that Joe Rogan really perpetuates that he's just asking questions or you know he
00:20:13.280says like oh I'm not a doctor don't take my advice or you know my guest says this and I don't know
00:20:18.900enough to push back. And as someone who makes a podcast, I know that that's not true, right? Like
00:20:24.080I'm not an expert on a lot of things, but I decide who comes on my show. I decide, you know,
00:20:29.460who to platform. And it's just, it's just this kind of feigning of ignorance that I feel is so
00:20:37.460powerful, but so frustrating. Yeah. I go back and forth on whether it's feigned or whether he just
00:20:46.820really is like that much of just an idiot who's just fallen upwards and upwards and upwards into0.99
00:20:56.060having podcasts where for some reason people listen to him talk for three hours and it's like1.00
00:21:04.900I can't really tell because it's such a perfect excuse to be like well I didn't know you know
00:21:13.560How was I going to know that when I had this guest on that I booked and supposedly should have researched what kinds of things they were going to say before platforming them and, you know, maybe listen to the edit of my podcast before I posted it?
00:21:28.780all of those very basic things that I do for my TikToks, I would expect him to do for his
00:21:38.760world's largest podcast. But apparently, it hasn't occurred to him that he has any
00:21:47.240responsibility. Yes. Oh, you just put that so wonderfully. I think that's one of the reasons.
00:21:54.640I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm just crapping on another podcaster, but it's something
00:31:23.340And I think part of the reason why that is, is sort of the same old story when it comes to misinformation.
00:31:29.480I think that bad actors and people who traffic in misinformation, they find groups of people who feel, who are or feel overlooked or underserved.
00:31:41.780And so whether it's a Spanish speaking population that doesn't have enough Spanish speaking news outlets and so bad actors know like, oh, we will give you lots of news. It'll just be lies. I think that Joe Rogan maybe really taps into a group of younger males who do feel legitimately unseen and unlistened to and like no one is speaking to them.
00:32:04.300And so I think that he has been able to shine a spotlight on these folks and make them feel seen and heard and validated in ways maybe other media sources legitimately maybe are not.
00:32:15.860And so I wonder, what do you think about that?
00:32:17.800Why do you think he has such a big listenership?
00:32:21.700And what does it say about our media climate?
00:32:23.160I definitely agree that he must be serving some, like he's serving and meeting some emotional and psychological need for this largely male audience who listen to him.
00:32:39.240I think that from when I've listened to his podcast, there does seem to be this kind of this focus on masculinity, either implicitly or explicitly masculinity is often highlighted.
00:32:56.020There's a lot of gender anxiety. I think that when cis men are confronted with the reality that gender isn't as binary as they were told it was, there can be a lot of backlash and that they will just kind of try and root even deeper into the gender binary and, quote, traditional masculinity.
00:33:23.680So I see that a lot in his podcast and I do think like he's meeting that need, right? Like he's just a, he's just like your funny older brother who's like getting high and having chats with other funny guys. So he's got to be meeting their needs in that way.
00:33:39.400we did an interview with Ifoma Uzoma, who used to work for Pinterest and was
00:33:43.400a instrumental person in terms of getting Pinterest to ban medical misinformation.
00:33:48.520Something that she told me that really stuck with me is that nine times out of 10,
00:33:51.860people who were pushing medical misinformation on Pinterest were selling something, whether it
00:33:56.300was a supplement or something, some sort of like alternative something, and they were like making
00:34:02.020money. And so I know that Joe Rogan owns a supplement company. I know that his supplement
00:34:05.500company advertises on the podcast. When you go to the Joe Rogan Reddit, people are asking a lot
00:34:10.420about it. I feel like it is obviously in his best interest to have a generation of young men feel
00:34:17.420intense anxiety about what it means to be a man, masculinity, and then also sell supplements that
00:34:26.020purport to make you more virile, make you more masculine, make you more of a man, whatever that
00:34:31.040means. I think it's a very clear relationship to me why someone would be interested in having
00:34:38.500their listenership feel anxious about the sort of gender issues you were just speaking to. And
00:34:44.060it always bums me out because I always just wonder, what if that same generation of young men
00:34:51.600had access to a platform that was as popular, as accessible, as I guess engaging as they find
00:35:00.320Joe Rogan, but instead of leaning into lies and anxieties around gender, they were being given
00:35:07.380thoughtful, substantive, interesting, you know, opinions and takes about gender that were not
00:35:13.660also trafficking in lies and extremism. What if that was what they were being fed with?
00:35:19.040Would they feel the need to buy supplements? Would they feel as anxious? Would that nourish
00:35:25.460them more, right? Like I, I guess when I think about disinformation, I think about the massive
00:35:31.440sort of missed opportunity to really nourish people with good content and good media, because
00:35:37.660I truly believe that everybody deserves good media. Everybody deserves the truth. Everybody
00:35:42.300deserves accuracy. And it makes me sad that so many people, they choose something else.
00:35:48.400Yeah, not only are they, I mean, they don't choose it, like they, not only are they choosing it, but it's being really promoted to them and fed to them as, you know, this is the most popular, so it must be good.
00:36:02.640And I think so much disinformation, I mean, as you said, like they're selling something. And a big tactic of encouraging people to buy something is to make them feel as though they need it, right? Like they are wanting, they are lacking something. And one way to do that is make them feel anxious, right?
00:36:24.960They're lacking masculinity. They don't have enough vitamin whatever they're selling on that
00:36:33.160particular episode. And they, we see it with like Fox News, right? Like they prey on vulnerable
00:36:44.540populations, highlight these deep anxieties that they have, and then feed them disinformation just
00:36:51.600to like increase those anxieties it doesn't help for our polarization problem at all either like
00:36:57.620it's an absolute mess but people profit off of it yeah I think that's something that really gets to
00:37:03.980me that it it absolutely adds to polarization and we have so many big issues facing us as people as
00:37:11.360a society and if we're all being fed extremism and lies and like more and more polarized and
00:37:17.780people are profiting off of that, we're never going to be able to come together with like a
00:37:21.660substantive conversation about these issues. We're always going to remain polarized. And
00:37:25.280I, you know, I believe that we are better when we are coming to the table with accurate
00:37:31.920information to base our conversations on. And it makes like, there are people out there that
00:37:36.500are profiting on us not doing that. Absolutely. Well, because the whole idea is to uphold the
00:37:42.900status quo and they're profiting off of people being unhappy in the status quo or, you know,
00:37:49.180not understanding why they don't have the wealth that they were promised they one day would or the
00:37:57.340power or happiness that they were promised that they one day would. And none of this media empowers
00:38:05.680anybody in their lives. Like fundamentally, it's there to increase anxiety and to keep them
00:38:14.460powerless in the face of tremendous inequality. Like this is not helping to unite the lower class.
00:38:22.660What? Yeah, I love how you put that. It's media that is not empowering. And yeah, I feel like
00:38:30.400everybody deserves to see themselves reflected in media. Everybody deserves to feel empowered by
00:38:34.900media. And I guess that's like a fundamental belief. And I hate like, it even pains me to be
00:38:42.340having this conversation about Joe Rogan, because I know there are men that make better content that
00:38:47.760will never get a tenth of the attention that somebody like Joe Rogan would get, would never
00:38:51.160get a tenth of the funding like somebody like Joe Rogan would get. And yeah, they just continue to
00:38:56.080take up the resources and the oxygen in the room. I literally hate, like, I am really happy that
00:39:03.240this conversation is being had, and that we are finally kind of like holding Spotify accountable.
00:39:10.680But at the same time, it's drowning out other conversations. I mean, even on Spotify, they were
00:39:18.580talking about how internally employees are unhappy because they weren't able to like actually
00:39:22.320promote Black History Month podcasts that they had planned. So in a lot of ways, even in his
00:39:28.980scandals and criticism, Joe Rogan is drowning out other voices. And that is also very frustrating.
00:39:37.860It's so frustrating. So Abby, how do you see this? Like, where do you think we go from here?
00:39:44.760I'm constantly trying to make the point that this is not about any one creator or just about
00:39:51.280Spotify. These issues are really systemic and institutional and they go so deep. Like,
00:39:56.400Like, like, where do you see this going from here?
00:39:58.780We're at this moment where we're having this like national conversation about lies for
00:40:04.680Where do you see it going or where do you hope it goes?
00:40:08.220Yeah, those are two different questions.
00:40:09.620I really, really hope that this can somehow be a lesson to platforms that they should
00:40:20.200not be sponsoring people who spread lies and hatred like fundamentally that seems like a pretty
00:40:29.280simple takeaway message is like just don't financially reward them don't facilitate
00:40:35.800their own growth by literally giving them millions and millions of dollars to be
00:40:43.860controversial and cause, you know, uproar from lives like that's not helpful. And I really hope
00:40:56.360that, you know, this dissuades companies from directly sponsoring it at a bare minimum. And
00:41:06.360then going forward, I'd like to see platforms also, you know, because platforms also profit
00:41:11.800off of this like youtube still profits off of joe rogan's videos um and i'd like to see
00:41:18.200platforms also doing more to you know just limit their reach and limit their ability to grow an
00:41:28.640entire platform and make millions of dollars by using this like old and timeless formula
00:41:39.300Yeah, I'm with you. I think that will never change until we make trafficking in lies unprofitable. Trafficking in extremism unprofitable. Like, and I'm not even someone who, like, I don't, you said earlier that there's always going to be people who have shitty opinions. I agree, but we don't have to give them microphones and a million dollar check to have those opinions.
00:42:28.340I am just a radical lib because I don't think you should get to make money for being racist.
00:42:38.880Okay, I have one more question for you.
00:42:41.360I know that you are a prolific TikToker.0.80
00:42:43.700Have you seen this trend where women use the TikTok face filter to add a beard onto their face and then they pretend to be male podcasters?0.99
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00:45:01.740Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:45:10.540I survived nine months in captivity and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive
00:45:23.580what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. Every
00:45:29.600week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled,
00:45:35.000and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:45:40.540Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:45:48.260If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:45:54.340Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:46:02.640Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture
00:46:06.100with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.