00:00:49.980If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:00:55.400Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:01:04.060Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.
00:02:04.740Nobody likes talking about online harassment.
00:02:07.040When I first started the podcast, There Are No Girls on the Internet, I specifically wanted to talk about all the cool things that women, queer folks, Black folks, and other underrepresented voices are doing on the Internet.
00:02:18.520And as much as I wanted to focus on the positive, the harassment we face online is difficult to ignore.0.77
00:02:24.420Earlier this month, Chrissy Teigen left Twitter.
00:02:49.080Chrissy Teigen is rich and famous and well-connected, but what about the rest of us who aren't?1.00
00:02:54.180We've seen a wave of online harassment come for women journalists, too.0.99
00:02:58.280On Fox News, Tucker Carlson did two nights of segments pretty much just making fun of New York Times internet culture reporter Taylor Lorenz for, as he put it, pretending to be oppressed.
00:03:08.620After she tweeted, for International Women's Day, please consider supporting women enduring online harassment.
00:03:14.580After Times reporter Rachel Abrams did a report on the conservative news network OWN, the network retaliated by putting her personal cell phone number on the air and encouraging viewers to contact her.0.86
00:03:25.680a pretty obvious attempt at inciting harassment.
00:03:28.380And it's not just people with public profiles.
00:03:31.520Harassment is just a reality when you're a marginalized person
00:03:34.260who puts their opinion or words online.
00:03:36.720If you're a woman or a person of color or a queer person who's listening,0.76
00:03:40.000you've probably already dealt with it.1.00
00:03:41.880I know I've dealt with it, and it's awkward to talk about.
00:03:45.480But writer Liz Lenz says that we need to start talking about it.
00:03:48.840In her piece called When the Mob Came for Me,
00:03:51.280she details what she's learned from dealing with waves of intense harassment
00:03:54.480for daring to be a woman with opinions online.1.00
00:03:57.520Liz wants people to know that becoming the target1.00
00:03:59.320of an online harassment campaign can happen to anyone.0.99
00:04:02.420So it's important to have a plan if it does.
00:04:43.040I find that a couple of things happen when you do talk about your harassment.
00:04:46.740People either tell you you're whining and it's not that bad or they are like, well,
00:04:52.920what'd you do to deserve it? You know, or, or the worst thing is, is when they're like,
00:04:58.880and then what happened? You know, and you're like, Oh God, like, I don't want to. And then
00:05:03.520they're like, what kind of bomb threats? And then you're like, um, okay, weirdos. I don't know.
00:05:10.360It just like, it never feels like there's a great way to have the conversation. And, um, but,
00:05:16.620But but like you, I have been seeing we are coming out of a year where I think especially marginalized journalists are exhausted.
00:05:26.580I know a handful of journalists who who have quit are taking breaks because just the pressures of pandemic, the intense harassment that they've received and and and no breaks and everything.
00:05:42.920and it just felt like there was this, it felt like there was a moment where I was like,
00:05:47.660we need to talk about this. We need to have a conversation. And so you're right. I wrote this
00:05:53.360thing that talked about my experiences. And I just like, want to be very clear at the outset,
00:05:58.240like there's a difference between criticism and harassment, like, you know, telling me I'm wrong
00:06:03.800or that you hate my article. That's okay. Like I don't consider that harassment. What I consider
00:06:09.540harassment is, you know, calling me horrible names, telling me you want my kids to die,0.98
00:06:15.840telling me you want me to die, telling me you're gonna bomb my house, or sending me pictures of1.00
00:06:20.860Pepe the Frog raping me. That's what I consider harassment. Like, and that, I feel like that's1.00
00:06:27.120pretty, I like, I don't, I feel like there's a pretty clear line between the two. I don't know
00:06:32.460why we keep, why it's hard to have that conversation. So anyway, now to finally answer
00:06:37.800your question. Yes. In 2016, I was writing about my experiences. I live in Iowa. Every four years,
00:06:46.620I write about the caucuses in some capacity. And that year, in 2016, I was writing about the
00:06:52.120caucuses for Vice. And I was live tweeting, you know, because that's a thing that journalists do.
00:06:58.780And I was like, I'm going to do it. And I only had like a couple thousand followers. And they
00:07:02.380were all following me because I'd had a pretty successful mom blog for a while. Not like super
00:07:08.000famous, but solid. I'd say like third tier college, kind of mom blog. It's like what you settle for
00:07:17.220when you don't get into Harvard. I started tweeting my experience caucusing. And in that
00:07:23.640year, as we all know, and it was, you know, the Hillary versus Bernie. If you were on political
00:07:30.440pockets of social media back then, you probably recall that the 2016 presidential election
00:07:35.020could feel like a pretty polarizing time to be online. There were palpable tensions between
00:07:40.080Bernie Sanders supporters and Hillary Clinton supporters that could really feel difficult to
00:07:44.140escape. And I have no political problems with Bernie Sanders, but a supporter of his like
00:07:51.440yelled at me during the caucuses. And this is Iowa. Like we don't yell at each other. We keep
00:07:56.860it inside and then talk shit about you behind your back like it's and like and so it was like0.99
00:08:01.640straight aggressive and it was so shocking to me um that I was live tweeting it and he he had said1.00
00:08:10.340something like you're voting with your vagina and I you know quit back you know and it wasn't even0.99
00:08:15.420that creative I think somebody else had said it better before but you know I was like yeah1.00
00:08:20.000America has been voting with its dick for 240 years like come on man and uh you know I was like0.75
00:08:26.860chill out and and and i tweeted that and just it got picked up and used as fodder in the bernie0.96
00:08:35.980hillary wars and i was getting you know i i've deleted it since then and i encourage everybody
00:08:43.020to regularly delete their tweets um but you know it was like thousands and thousands of retweets
00:08:49.500and likes, you know, they were fave stars then, this was back in the olden days, and then, you
00:08:58.420know, and that's when I started getting, I got people with my DMs, I got emails, people being
00:09:03.460like, you know, we're gonna call CPS on you to have your kids taken away, and I don't, you know,
00:09:12.220I'm not gonna attribute this to, like, one side or the other, I think there's just trolls out in
00:09:17.420the world and they like to harass people but yeah I would and that's when it was like it was it
00:09:22.740wasn't like it it took things like I'd gotten criticism before you know where it's like look1.00
00:09:28.680at this dumb bitch but like I hadn't gotten now your kids are going to be taken away and and then0.97
00:09:36.640you know and in 2016 so that's when you my career as a writer was really starting to take off and0.99
00:09:43.140i was writing longer form pieces and it just became a situation where every once in a while
00:09:48.440like i get like a weird letter like i got like a snail mail and you're at your home wow yeah and
00:09:55.140the most disturbing one was uh was just like five pages like white printer pages and somebody had
00:10:03.320handwritten out bible verses on them and it was just like and it was just like you know all the
00:10:09.040verses about like repent and you're going to hell it's like i grew up like evangelical like you can't
00:10:15.100convert me come on i already memorized all those bible verses in alana like i was in bible quiz
00:10:22.780you can't you can't out bible me and but also it's like chilling and i remember opening the
00:10:30.840envelope and being like you know like scary music in the background and and and like stuff like that
00:10:37.960would trickle and trickle and trickle and then and finally a couple things started to happen and
00:10:45.780you know again like I don't want to be like oh like this one thing happened because I think once
00:10:50.120you're kind of on a radar then like the then it just comes back and comes back as Liz's public
00:10:57.200profile grew as she published bigger and bigger stories so did the level of harassment she faced
00:11:01.860A couple of things started to happen around 2018, 2019 is I wrote some more high profile pieces and then finally wrote a profile of Tucker Carlson, which is like what a lot of people know me for.
00:11:17.200I wrote it for the Columbia Journalism Review. And after that, it sparked a whole year of just waves.
00:11:26.600it was I would like I liken it to like you know like a tide it would like flow in and flow out
00:11:33.280but there would always be a little trickle um so basically 2018-2019 um the wave is out right now
00:11:43.860fingers crossed but like the the tide's out but like the but like it just it sparked off this
00:11:50.740whole just harassment where like my phone was blowing up. I used to use a Google number that
00:11:58.240got doxxed. I was getting like, you know, it's hard to explain, but like there's this like troll
00:12:06.400community thing where, you know, they used to use Pepe. Now they use like this picture of a giant
00:12:12.220Bugs Bunny and they call it like Big Chungus. It's just, it's just dumb. Right. And, but it's0.99
00:12:18.400like, and so I just get like pictures and pictures of that, you know, I was also getting, you know,
00:12:22.520pictures of Pepe the Frog raping me, like photoshopped, you know, and it was just like,
00:12:28.200you were coming for you, and all of this, and like, it never ended, because I think in that
00:12:34.320time I published, I started publishing some like, you know, bigger pieces, I published a story that
00:12:39.060got a lot of attention about my divorce, food in my divorce, and it was titled, I'm Never Cooking
00:12:44.560for a man again which was like you know it's like titles are always a little tongue-in-cheek but
00:12:49.420it was just an exploration of like food and emotional labor and marriage and and oh my god
00:12:56.140that like went super viral and and and just got like shit ton of shit I've actually read it and
00:13:06.660it's it's so touching and like personal and relatable and it's funny to me that that title
00:13:13.080was i mean we we've all i like like having read the piece it is it makes so much sense but i could
00:13:19.700see how that title would be like enraging for people who are already predisposed to think of
00:13:25.260you in this negative light but that's the troll thing right it's like just take things that
00:13:30.380headline value and then use that to crap on people um you know and and i had i then i also0.83
00:13:37.820published a profile of Richard Spencer's divorce, the Nazi. That didn't help. Then I moderated in0.90
00:13:44.7002019, I moderated a presidential forum. And it was, you know, I'll say this about the forum
00:13:51.080is we had, there were three moderators. I was just one of them. And they, you know, they're both
00:14:00.680the other two moderators, lovely people, both marginalized and, you know, identify as queer
00:14:10.320in their own ways. And all of the questions we had, like, co-written together and, like,
00:14:15.640many organizations, you know, had, like, vetted. And so I was just really just reading off of a
00:14:21.880prompter. Here is Liz grilling Biden at the forum. You also praised Vice President Mike Pence as a
00:17:33.820Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.0.98
00:17:38.240I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:17:42.700I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:17:49.760They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:17:54.220But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:17:57.680They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:18:01.300Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:18:09.740If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:18:15.680This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:18:28.160I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:18:35.260I'm going to have to look up this story.
00:18:38.400From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:18:44.800It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:18:52.720Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:19:01.880Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:19:16.300Liz says that once you're on the radar of a network of harassers online,
00:19:19.880anything that you say can be used against you.
00:19:22.520For her, it was a silly joke that she had made about online dating after a night out with friends.
00:19:27.100And with that kind of threat hanging over you,
00:19:29.280it can feel like it's not worth it to show up as your full self online.
00:19:32.640Because someone somewhere could inevitably take whatever thing you're saying out of context
00:19:36.760to harass you the thing that they always cling to is this one joke I made uh it was I I was I had
00:19:46.440said and this happened but it was just like I was just joking about it was like um a man unmatched
00:19:52.840with me after I told him I was a journalist you know what's he hiding you know time to open and
00:20:00.820it's not even that funny I think it was like a joke I like tweeted at like 11 p.m after I'd had
00:20:06.660like drinks with friends and I was like oh this is fun you know what I mean it's like not it's not
00:20:12.600even it's just like okay Liz ha ha ha you know and but like they screenshot that and every once
00:20:18.980in a while it'll just come back up and people be like did you do this did you dox an innocent man
00:20:24.540and I'll be like uh I don't even remember his name but yes that is that is my joke thank you
00:20:31.860like it's not that funny but that's the thing that comes back up more often than anything else
00:20:37.360it's just it's it's weird I don't know it's so interesting how that one harmless joke that is
00:20:45.340not you know I mean I've seen that screenshot so and you know I can only imagine what it's like
00:20:50.440for you being like oh they're they're pulling this this silly joke I made back up again it
00:20:55.280will never go away it's just like I just deserve better enemies I'm always like I have made first
00:21:01.520of all like first of all i've made way worse jokes way worse like do you hear how i'm talking0.94
00:21:11.440like i i'm i say dumb shit all the time just constantly literally fight me on literally any0.90
00:21:19.420other dumb thing i've said but like and then they're they're all like expect me to be ashamed0.99
00:21:24.560of it they're like did you say this and I'm like I sure did and they're like did you dox a man and0.66
00:21:31.980I'm like I sure didn't because it's a joke y'all and it's and it's funny because like you know that0.76
00:21:39.120was one of the things that I that you know like a lot of this trolly culture is like you know the
00:21:46.460liberals can't take a joke that's why we're gonna like you know make fun of them and like taunt them
00:21:53.640this is a really nasty way you know it's like it's like a generation of men who who never learned
00:22:00.840that they weren't funny oh god yes yeah and it's just like this is actually not these are not these
00:22:07.480are not jokes like i have i'm friends with the comedian josh compliment and i was like you should
00:22:12.400perform a service where people can ask you if is this a joke or not and you're like you know is
00:22:17.960like a five-year-old you know is this a joke nope sorry that's just a fart sound it's not a joke
00:22:24.160you know is this a joke no you just made a fat joke you know you just you're just making a
00:22:29.980comment about somebody's weight not a joke not a joke just some fat phobia even that joke does
00:22:37.800illustrate how I guess I feel that on Twitter especially we've gotten to a point where it's
00:22:45.120like bad, like we're not able to have actual conversations or even just communicate because
00:22:50.280everything is so weaponized and taken in bad faith. What you tweeted was obviously just a
00:22:58.500joke. You're kidding around, but there's this assumption that anything that you say, I just
00:23:03.420feel that Twitter is so charged. People, once you're on someone's radar, they're looking for
00:23:07.680anything. Anything that you say can be used to be like, see, she's the worst.
00:23:11.620Yeah, you know, it's so funny because that that thing I wrote about online mobs, part of it was an interview with the journalist and author Talia Lavin and who's who helped me through that year of of harassment and has used really just because she's experienced it.
00:23:31.760She wrote this book, Cultural Warlords, where she, you know, digs into these communities, online communities of hate.
00:23:37.920And so and so but the funny thing about it and in that interview, you know, she's very clear, like she's very good at parsing the nuance of what's harassment and what's criticism.
00:23:53.080Because, again, like people are allowed to criticize like and I'm going to make mistakes and people are allowed to call out those mistakes.
00:24:01.500And I never want to be, you know, like, nailing myself to a cross just because, like, maybe I fucked up a column, you know.
00:24:29.200Like, that's just people talking about their experiences and saying this isn't okay. An online mob is, you know, putting a picture of somebody's house inside a crosshairs and saying, you know, I'm building pipe bombs. Like, that's the difference.
00:24:46.700And so, but like that, that interview was quote tweeted or like somebody quote tweeted it. It was Glenn Greenwald quote tweeted it and was like, oh, look at the, you know, he was basically like, look at these people that don't know the difference between harassment and criticism.
00:25:03.880It was like, if you were functionally literate, like you would have read it and know that we have like three paragraphs, you know, parsing out that nuance.
00:25:15.260But again, like it's what you're saying, it's just bad faith.
00:25:17.760And it's just once you're on somebody's radar and they don't like you, everything that you do, they're just going to hate.0.99
00:25:50.220Like, is that as you go through life and as you become more successful, you know, you kind of have these experiences like you have to grow into.
00:26:00.860And so, yes, that first year of intense harassment was a really hard, it felt like being in a tunnel, just like I couldn't, everything was closing in all around me. And, you know, I also live in a, I don't live in a big, well, it's the second largest city in Iowa, people are always like, it's the big city.
00:26:20.900Yes, it's the big city if you're from, like, you know, like, Fairfield or something.
00:26:34.180And something that has happened, too, is, like, you know, I get emails from people in town.
00:26:41.740And, you know, or don't do this to people, by the way.
00:26:45.860But people like to make me aware when other people in town are discussing me on Facebook and I'm like, please don't, because then it makes me scared to go to the grocery store.
00:26:57.340But yes, people have like, yeah, I remember very specifically one woman in town who's pretty high profile, who had like a whole Facebook post discussing my body and how I looked as I moderated that forum, you know, calling me showy and trashy.
00:27:13.720and like I was just trying to flaunt myself and like implying that I was like a giant slut I was
00:27:20.220wearing like it doesn't matter what I was wearing like but but I was wearing like you know just like0.65
00:27:27.240a standard and like newscaster dress it was bright yellow because I can wear yellow
00:27:33.460I'm like one of the few white people who can do it0.94
00:27:37.200it's a tough color to pull off it's a tough color and it's my one skill and y'all can just
00:27:45.920eat it you know and that kind of stuff it makes you feel like you can't be anonymous
00:27:52.460you know I'll go for runs and people will honk at me and it's like well am I getting
00:27:58.420is that my friend is that uh is that like a car full of dudes you know that are you know
00:28:05.640it's just like you don't know and it's scary or you go to the grocery store and people will be
00:28:10.120like oh are you the writer and you're like maybe are you the one who participated in talking about
00:28:15.860what a slut I was like you know I'm just like I don't and it's and most people are nice and most0.58
00:28:22.640people are good actually and most people are generous I I think this I believe this but0.98
00:28:28.240when when you're in that harassment zone and especially when things are really intense you
00:34:52.160are not like the most generous people on the internet like if you're making the conscious
00:34:57.460decision to follow him as a person and his personal brand is not like it's not like you
00:35:04.100know kindness generosity and light more after a quick break behind every night spent making the
00:35:18.200kids lunches there's a lot of suspense will they finally eat the veggies will the pesto survive
00:35:23.000the first bite will the lunchbox come home empty half full or come home at all and will you finish
00:35:28.800episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers get bell pure fiber internet with crave netflix
00:35:34.460and disney plus from 94 a month price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term
00:35:39.460and auto pay credit visit bell.ca for details and to check availability bell connection is everything
00:35:45.180run a business and not thinking about podcasting think again more americans listen to podcasts
00:35:50.940than ad-supported streaming music from spotify and pandora and as the number one podcaster
00:35:55.540iheart's twice as large as the next two combined so whatever your customers listen to they'll hear
00:36:00.260your message plus only iheart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio
00:36:05.120think podcasting can help your business think iheart streaming radio and podcasting call 844
00:36:11.240844-844-IHART to get started. That's 844-844-IHART. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and
00:36:19.700held captive for nine months. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive
00:36:26.180what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. I just
00:36:32.340remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week,0.98
00:36:41.240I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.
00:36:44.680I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:36:49.160I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:36:56.780They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:37:00.680But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:37:04.140They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:37:07.240Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:37:16.200If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:37:22.140This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:37:34.600I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:37:41.720I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
00:37:45.300From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:37:51.240It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:37:58.720Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:38:08.320Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:38:22.440We talk a lot about free speech online, what it is and who has it.
00:38:26.260But we need to make room to talk about what happens when marginalized voices are pushed off of social media because the harassment has gotten so bad.
00:38:33.540And this is ultimately the point of this kind of harassment.
00:38:36.500To make people feel like speaking up and putting their opinions out there is just ultimately not worth it.
00:38:41.480To make women and other marginalized voices shut up and just stop talking.
00:38:46.320The silencing effect it has can be real.
00:38:49.260And this is something that Liz wants men to understand.
00:38:52.280I do not think these men need to stop talking.
00:38:55.700I mean, I would like it if they talked less, but that's my own personal decision.
00:39:00.780It has no reflection on the Constitution or laws that I would like to see changed.
00:39:06.860But like I, you know, nobody's saying you can't talk.
00:39:11.340But what they are saying is there is a difference between when you talk and when I talk.0.83
00:39:18.300When you talk, maybe people quote, tweet you and tell you're a potatoed brain.0.64
00:39:23.400When I talk, people tell me they're going to kill my kids, and that's the difference, and there is a silencing effect, and that's the point.
00:39:38.000The point is to make you look over your shoulder, to make you think twice before you have an opinion, and it's that culture of silence and that culture of fear that is bred.0.85
00:39:49.480and I know, I know women who are afraid of doing things, of poking their heads up. I
00:39:57.560never learned there's something deeply wrong with me. So it actually makes me bolder. It makes me
00:40:04.840like, no, you don't get to dictate the terms on which I live my life and on how I write. And so,
00:40:11.800but I'm not saying there's a wrong way to be. You have to live the life that feels good and safe to
00:40:16.840you. So I'm not. But it makes me sad, you know, because I do know there are voices we do not hear
00:40:24.080because of this fear. And that's the silencing. And that's the thing we need to be talking about.
00:40:30.400And that's the thing that I think is interesting, right? That who gets defended and who gets
00:40:36.080attacked, right? You're right. Like, you know, quote tweeting the intern and telling them they
00:40:42.040did a bad job when it's obvious it was probably just a signed you know it was a co-byline with
00:40:47.620another man like and if you had a problem with the piece then don't attack like just say I have
00:40:53.220a problem with this piece like I have a problem don't tell that person they're bad at their like
00:40:58.560there is a line like and and and I actually think that like being harassed makes me a little bit
00:41:04.740more of an empathetic person because I it is and you know it is tempting for everybody to like
00:41:10.920think of like a celebrity or somebody who's more high profile not as a person right you're like oh
00:41:16.480well you're just an image so now I'm going to just talk about like how you look on the internet but
00:41:21.420it does make me think twice about like how I talk about people and how I how I criticize things
00:41:28.200because you know there there is a difference and there is a line and um yeah and I think too if
00:41:36.300you're high profile enough, you should know that by now. And you should, you know, use your power
00:41:41.260for good, not evil. I always, you know, try to think like I, I punch up, right? Like hold power
00:41:47.400accountable. And that's another thing I think it's always like, she's always like, know your
00:41:52.260power so that you don't abuse your power. That's so important. Yeah. She's like, who are you going
00:41:57.780to fight? And how are you going to fight it? You know, she's like, you need to be very conscious
00:42:02.960of those things so that you don't, you know, so that you don't hurt anybody.
00:42:08.140You talked about the role that Talia, who I love, played when you were harassed, and
00:42:12.900that it wasn't just, you know, keep your head up, girl.
00:43:51.860um please we just want some water um why are you talking like that but yes uh delete me is a great
00:44:02.500service there's other ones out there delete me is the one i've been using for years there is a
00:44:07.260promo code for 20 off it's a significant amount of money uh lyzl if you use it um and then um
00:44:14.820other things too i you know if you if you have kids get all their pictures off the internet
00:44:20.060Now, just do it. You know, scrub your Facebook. There are services out there. None of them are super great. So there's not one I really could recommend. I just Google around. Scrub your Facebook. A lot of TV news stations have their newscasters have two Facebooks, you know, your private one and your public one.
00:44:43.060Consider that if you like to use Facebook.
00:44:45.320I think Facebook is necessary for journalists, especially if you report on your own community.
00:44:49.980You kind of need to see what's going on.
00:44:52.240But if you have the luxury of deleting Facebook, just delete it.
00:44:56.080The thing with Instagram is I have a private one and a public one now.
00:49:32.500And I have had institutions stick up for me. I will say the Columbia Journalism Review has been a staunch supporter of my work. And I think that Kyle Pope over there has been amazing in the harassment that I have received.
00:49:54.140For him, I have profiled Alan Dershowitz, Tucker Carlson, Chris Saliza, Seth Abramson, and if you think that there wasn't pushback on those articles, you're wrong.0.91
00:50:07.480Gretchen Carlson, that was a weird one.
00:50:11.200And every single time they have stood by.
00:50:15.240First of all, institutionally, they provide rigorous fact-checking so that everything would be airtight.
00:50:21.120and and then stood by me you know through through the waves because they I don't know I've never
00:50:28.040been like Kyle why have you done it but it's um I think it's because they know and they value good
00:50:33.920work and yes and so it is encouraging to see when institutions get it right I hate it when
00:50:40.960institutions get it wrong but um there are some good examples of things let's if we focus on the
00:50:47.260positive. And I think that knowing that your institution has your back makes you a better
00:50:53.380journalist, makes you better at your job. I'm more willing to say bolder things or to write
00:51:00.080bigger stories for them because I know I can trust them, that I know that they'll have a
00:51:07.900lawyer ready and they'll defend me and they'll be proud of me. Media companies and outlets are
00:51:14.720starting to catch up. When journalists like Taylor Lorenz and Sungmin Cam were harassed online for
00:51:19.580doing their jobs, their outlets put out statements sticking up for them. And some outlets have gone
00:51:24.640even further. Last week, the sports site Defector Media announced a new policy that would offer
00:51:29.620support to journalists if they found themselves at the center of a harassment campaign, including
00:51:34.060a subscription to Delete Me, safe housing for them and their families should their homes become
00:51:38.200unsafe, and assigning someone to temporarily manage their social media accounts. Not only is
00:51:44.140a good way to support staff, but it just acknowledges that online harassment is a real
00:51:48.420thing that staff might have to deal with. Instead of just pretending that it's something
00:51:52.100just happening online, it acknowledges the reality that online harassment can deeply
00:51:57.300impact our real world, our real work, and real lives. And if people are marginalized,
00:52:03.140the kind of harassment they face will be worse. You know, talking with other men, and men get
00:52:09.240this kind of harassment too, but I was talking with another writer just the other day about this
00:52:15.520and he was like, yeah, I've gone through harassment cycles before. He's like, but I don't think they
00:52:19.920inspire in me the fear that they inspire in you because you're already afraid to walk alone at
00:52:28.100night, right? Like these are already fears that you have and they get compounded by your fears
00:52:35.960online and and this is not all in your head right fear is a gift read the gift of fear everybody
00:52:41.300read the gift of fear it's a great book teaches you to trust yourself like um trust your gut
00:52:46.780and um I teach that to my daughter I'm like trust your gut you know if something feels weird if an
00:52:53.860adult feels weird get away from them yes sometimes she'll be like you feel weird
00:52:58.340not the gift of fear but fine go to your room uh it's uh but yes and so like yeah but yes like
00:53:08.060it compounds the already precarious situation of existing in the world and um which is you know so
00:53:17.880much harder for marginalized people um and it's you know it's not in your head like this like
00:53:24.040you know racism and homophobia is institutionalized and so yes uh yes so it is different
00:53:32.360definitely um and it is encouraging when there you do find places that support you and then and
00:53:40.580they're just doing like their jobs like you know to like say like we have an employee and they did
00:53:45.400this story and we're fine with it but like just I think because we've all just been so railroaded by
00:53:51.380capitalism that when it does its job like it's uh we're like thanks mom yes our standards are very
00:54:00.460low they are so low it's like it's like oh you didn't you didn't toss me out like the trash like
00:54:09.140great thank you um but no i i i do think uh cdr has supported me and my work in some really
00:54:17.760powerful ways and I don't think that that's nothing and I don't think it's a mistake that
00:54:22.700I've some of my best work I've written for them right and so um it makes good business sense to
00:54:28.700treat your employees well what is your advice to underrepresented people women people of color who
00:54:34.920want to be want to put their opinions out into the world whether as a writer like yourself0.96
00:54:41.400that they're just as a social media user but are understandably scared um yeah I you know I say
00:54:48.500obviously like you need to live uh the life that you're happiest with so you know like
00:54:56.140so I I don't think that I can tell you what that looks like and nobody can but it you know and if
00:55:03.940you're scared like yeah think about that right like do the work but there are some simple practical
00:55:11.260steps you can take now, even if you're just like, I'm not famous. Nobody cares about what I say.
00:55:16.180Who cares? Live like you're going to be famous. Start leveling up and start taking care of your
00:55:22.400shit now. Scrub your stuff, you know, lock down your Instagrams, you know, figure that kind of0.99
00:55:31.180shit out, you know, clear, do whatever you need to do with Facebook, which is a nightmare.0.96
00:55:36.320and start doing that now before it gets bad.0.98
00:55:42.480And then I think that that gives you a place of strength
00:55:45.220from which to operate and then have like a game plan.
00:55:58.120I'm going to have this friend do this.
00:55:59.940I've had friends monitor my email before, you know,
00:56:02.780just because like signed out, no notifications.
00:56:06.320Can you handle it? And have those plans in place. I think it gives you a position of strength to
00:56:14.040operate from. And only write, by the way, here's another tip. If you're, if we're talking about
00:56:20.040writing, only write for editors that have your back. And you'll know. Like, do not write for
00:56:26.360an editor who is going to let you publish something shitty. I used to work as an editor
00:56:34.860for a literary magazine. And there were times when I would be reading an essay that was other
00:56:39.000love, otherwise lovely, but had like one or two sentences in it that, you know, might be fact
00:56:45.380shamey, might be a little bit not great. And, you know, my, my comment to the author was always,
00:56:52.700we're taking this out because it brings down the quality of the piece and your writing, right?
00:56:59.560It's, and, but, you know, there are websites, XO Jane used to do this, that would take people's worst thoughts and impulses, put them online, and then they'd become targets, and then they'd be like, why did that happen to me?
00:57:14.960It's like, well, you wrote something terrible in a bad way, and not to say, once again, people don't deserve death threats, but, and I do think we don't, that was like the internet in the early aughts a little bit.
00:57:29.380I feel like people have, most editors will have your back, but don't write for editors who are
00:57:35.300going to throw you under the bus, who are going to, you know, exploit your marginalized identity
00:57:40.360for clicks. Be in charge of yourself and your representation. Don't be afraid to walk away from
00:57:47.060stories if you get a bad vibe or editors, if you get a bad vibe, it's fine. I've done it a couple
00:57:52.960times just because I'm like, I don't, I respect you, but I feel like we're not vibing on this
00:57:59.240peace and, uh, it's okay to walk away from it. Um, things like that. Um, I also just like never
00:58:07.140advocate anybody living a life of fear. And so if you're in that place, if you feel like all you're
00:58:13.240doing is operating from a place of fear, you're not, you're not living your best life. So what
00:58:18.400do you need to do to not be there? It doesn't mean getting off of Twitter. You know, you can
00:58:23.140have a life like not online it's possible lots of people have you know wonderful writing careers
00:58:30.420and are not on the internet people exist not on the internet um things happen not on the internet
00:58:37.120so find the life that you need to live and lead and don't live in a place of fear please nobody
00:58:43.180wants that for you and don't be afraid to reach out to to other people um you know find your
00:58:49.140community and find the people who love you and want to see you succeed and really, you know,
00:58:55.440lean on them. That's beautiful. Where can folks keep up with all the amazing stuff that you're
00:59:01.080doing? Oh, like a cancel culture warrior. I also have a newsletter. It is, it's just liz.substack.com
00:59:16.060lyz.substack.com, and it's called Men Yell At Me. They do. People are like, why do you call it?
00:59:23.580I'm like, I don't know. Why do they yell? Don't ask me. But that's my newsletter. So I also have
00:59:33.380a Twitter. It's at lyz. I also have a website, lizlins.com. And you can find me all of those
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