00:00:38.200If your vacations were sexy murder mysteries that also dive deep into generational trauma, but not in too heavy of a way, it is the perfect book to take on a plane.
00:00:51.780It is the perfect book to read next to your public pool while taking breaks to yell at your kids.
00:00:59.980It is the perfect book to get you out of a reading slump, and it is available now wherever you get books.
00:01:10.760As a mom, it often feels impossible to take a minute for yourself.
00:01:16.480I mean, I close my eyes and I think about meditating.0.97
00:01:21.780and a baby comes along and bites my freaking toe. Yeah, that happens. My kid bites my foot a lot.0.96
00:01:30.420It's a weird, it's a weird, it's weird. It's a weird thing that she does. So I hear the word
00:01:35.000mindfulness a lot. And I think that it's something I should probably do. And it's something that
00:01:40.360would probably make me feel better. But it also feels like something I don't have time for,
00:01:46.680something I'm never going to have time for. Today's guest kind of flips the script on
00:01:52.840mindfulness in ways that I think are really helpful. Catherine Barbish is a clinical
00:01:58.960psychologist and a mom of four kids. She's also the stay-at-home parent. She chose to be the
00:02:05.620stay-at-home parent when her fourth kid was a baby. And now she does a lot of writing about
00:02:10.860how moms can be mindful when being mindful is the last thing that we want to do. She talks about
00:02:16.500how we can pause, how we can be curious. And we really get into the fact that I think the phrase
00:02:21.540being present is a big steaming pile of bullshit.0.99
00:02:30.540So I'm Catherine Barbash. I am a mom to four kids, a clinical psychologist. I live in Pittsburgh1.00
00:02:40.940with my husband and my kids and I am the stay-at-home parent over the last couple of years
00:02:50.600and I write a newsletter on Substack called Mindful Mom in the Mud.
00:02:56.800And I love Mindful Mom in the Mud. Tell us a little bit about what you focus on.
00:03:02.220I focus on the mess, hence the mud, of parenting and all of kind of the complicated, sometimes fun, sometimes wonderful, sometimes crappy stuff of being a parent.
00:03:20.580I bring the perspective of being a clinical psychologist and having done clinical work with families and schools and hospitals and also being a parent and how even with all of that professional training, it's still really, really damn hard.
00:03:42.740Still really damn hard. It just it just is. How old are your kids?
00:03:48.380so i have a toddler a preschooler a first grader and third grader i think we have the same except
00:03:57.940i don't have the oldest one yeah yeah um what i love what i love about what you do is that
00:04:06.680you know so much of what so much of what we see on the social medias uh makes parenting
00:04:12.580look easy and or gives advice that is not helpful, not helpful for actual, actual real
00:04:21.080parents who are living in the world with actual real kids and and and not cabbage patch kids.
00:04:29.220And so you have very practical advice for parents.0.98
00:04:34.740Talk to me about your decision to be like, I want to cut through the bullshit.0.98
00:04:37.640I want to cut through the bullshit and I want to just help parents be normal parents.0.96
00:04:42.580yeah i mean i think the decision to really put it out there came from my own experience as a parent
00:04:51.040i mean i was a great parent right before i became a parent i had all the like i'm gonna do it this
00:04:57.600way i know the good research i know the evidence-based and then it was still incredibly
00:05:05.280hard and i really started to burn myself out on trying to do all of the right things
00:05:12.900And and then I found that a lot of what was out there was still not serving my kids.
00:05:17.820So three of my kids are neurodivergent.
00:05:21.760I was finding that, you know, where did we fit?
00:05:25.380None of this stuff was really matching up.
00:05:27.120And so I knew that my experience was not unique, that a lot of people feel that way.
00:05:33.020And so I really want people to feel empowered and confident and find things that are accessible to them within real life.
00:05:46.020And what are some of those things that are accessible in real life for actual real parents?
00:05:51.840I think, you know, we need tools to empower families how to sift through all of the information
00:06:03.360out there. I think before we even get to kind of like what to do, you know, what's best for your
00:06:09.320child, parents need to have skills to kind of to say this is going to be helpful or this is something
00:06:17.000I'm interested in, or this is a priority for our family. How can I go about this? And I don't feel
00:06:22.760like parents have those tools or some parents do certainly, but I think that's not what's talked
00:06:29.640about. We're so stuck in the like, how to, the like, the little details, what to say, what not
00:06:35.720to say, what to do, what to buy. And I think that we're missing kind of like, where do we go before
00:06:42.540that. So I feel like there are tools like mindfulness that can be really powerful and
00:06:48.280helpful. It's not the cure-all. It doesn't make you have child care. It doesn't make parenting,
00:06:55.080you know, a breeze, but at least it helps families navigate kind of what do I want to do?
00:07:00.840What are the choices available to me and how to move forward? I think equipping families
00:07:08.200in ways to just be able to get down to kind of what are our values? What are our needs?
00:07:13.780Who is this child? Who am I as a parent? That's where you get started. And then you can kind of
00:07:20.340navigate more of all of these, you know, this firehose of information that's out there.
00:07:26.260It's such a firehose of information. I mean, everything. I don't think that we were ever
00:07:31.460meant to consume information like this. And I think about that a lot. There's always been
00:07:37.520parenting advice. And that is, you know, some people's rebuttal to this. They're like Dr. Spock
00:07:41.860and what to expect when you're expecting have been around forever. And I'm like, yes, but they
00:07:46.360haven't been on this device that is weirdly attached to our hand all the time that we stare
00:07:54.280at in the bathroom, in bed. And that advice is also right next to our work app and also right
00:08:03.100next to how we text our children and call our children. We weren't meant to have this mishmash
00:08:09.440of a fire hose turned on at us at all times. And I think it's too much for parents. I think it's
00:08:17.460very overwhelming. And I think meditation is a great idea. So many mothers have said to me,
00:08:23.960I don't have time to fucking meditate. Okay. They're like, that's really great advice. That's0.99
00:08:28.920adorable. But when the hell am I going to do this? And you wrote a post called Tired Parents
00:08:35.240Can't Meditate on a Mountaintop. And this is true. I don't have time to go to a mountaintop1.00
00:08:44.600and I hardly have time to close my eyes. So what does bringing mindfulness into real life
00:08:50.300parenthood actually look like? Yeah. Mindfulness is so popular now, too. So I feel like people
00:08:58.600same thing are getting kind of like all of this different information about mindfulness and what
00:09:03.300they should or shouldn't do. And I think it's available to all of us. Like mindfulness is
00:09:09.140about being present in the moment and you're not present all the time. That's the other thing. I
00:09:13.940think people are like, I can't be present all the time. So it's about being present in the moment,
00:09:19.980being able to see your choices clearly. And I think a lot of people can benefit from seeing
00:09:27.500where they are right now, that they do pause, that they can take a breath, that they they can
00:09:34.080choose how to respond in a frustrating situation. And so that's where I tell people to start is
00:09:40.560start where you are. You know, let's recognize all the things you're doing. And when I wrote
00:09:45.180that post, I kind of made this list of, hey, this is mindfulness, right? Like if you stop and pause
00:09:51.800before you lose your mind or you take a deep breath or you step outside and take a deep breath
00:10:00.400before you deal with whatever nutty thing is happening in your house. Pausing in your car
00:10:07.480before you enter your home, coming from work so that you can take a moment and then show up for
00:10:12.800your kids. It's there. It is accessible to people. I think if we imagine that we have to do 20 minutes
00:10:21.220of meditation every day in order to be mindful, yeah, that's pretty out of reach. And it's not
00:10:28.920going to be particularly helpful maybe someday. And maybe some people do that. And I think that
00:10:34.060that is wonderful for them. I think for the majority of us, though, we have to think a little
00:10:38.600smaller. We really do. And, you know, when we think about mindfulness, especially on social
00:10:46.580media, we picture this person sitting down and staring off into a sunset. And this is actually
00:10:54.820quite funny because I was at a wedding in Mexico this weekend. We were not with the children.
00:11:01.680It was a very fancy wedding that took place in the middle of the jungle. And at one point,
00:11:08.240I was like, you know what? I am going to meditate. And I'm going to sit down and stare off into this
00:11:15.180beautiful jungle. And you know what happened? A stray Mexican street dog came and licked my face.
00:11:26.560And it just reminded me that if I were home, one of my children would have come up and licked my0.94
00:11:33.020face. And there is no perfect moment for meditation. And the things that social media
00:11:38.340shows us about meditation are just big fat lies. Yes. I mean, the amount of times that I've sat
00:11:49.200down to meditate and, you know, within minutes I have someone banging on the door asking for a
00:11:56.020snack or needing pants or whatever it is, you know, this happens all the time. And so you have
00:12:05.020to be kind to yourself and know that if you want to meditate, it's going to be imperfect. If you
00:12:11.260don't want to meditate, there are other ways to be mindful throughout your day.
00:12:17.860Yes. And I loved your list. You have this great list of presence, awareness, and curiosity and
00:12:24.540non-judgment with kids. And there's things on there like finding the breath that your body
00:12:30.120needs before the yell comes out. Sitting in the car one moment longer so you can fully say hello
00:12:38.120to your kids. I love this next one. I love it. Stopping your task to listen to their giggles.
00:12:46.140Showing up curious to understand why that math worksheet is the, quote, dumbest in the world.0.95
00:12:53.240and these are all things that we can do it's that pause right like you said we don't have to be
00:13:02.380mindful all the time and one what i really enjoyed about about what you wrote is the uh
00:13:09.680the curiosity it's not i don't always love the word present i like the word curiosity
00:13:17.300a lot better uh because i think that's easier in a way because we all want to be curious0.61
00:13:25.400yeah there's so many words that we use that we throw around that i think are bullshit and i'm0.92
00:13:31.220going to put present in there in the bullshit bucket right now yes because i like the idea0.99
00:13:37.320of being curious and not just being curious about your children but being curious about your own0.99
00:13:41.920mind and your own emotions. Yes, absolutely. I think, yes, present at this point, I think is
00:13:50.160getting perhaps overused and it does make, it starts to lose its meaning. And then there's
00:13:59.140like the pressure to be present, right? Then you feel like bad of like, oh, I wasn't present in
00:14:04.160that moment. I was doing that activity with my kid and I wasn't present. So now I'm not being
00:14:08.320mindful and I'm not being present and it's just like a slippery slope to beat ourselves up and
00:14:15.160so showing up curious sometimes feels more accessible or more active right that's a way
00:14:21.480that you can show up and and kind of really connect with your kid or your loved ones well
00:14:27.520and as someone who has a PhD in psychology what are the benefits of this the benefits of mindful
00:14:38.300mindfulness. There's a lot of good research that's come out that, you know, when people are
00:14:44.620able to practice mindfulness, they in general will report better mood. There might be less
00:14:53.780rates of depression, anxiety, things like that. I think what gets kind of sold to people about
00:15:00.620mindfulness and gets translated incorrectly is that people who are mindful are happier,
00:15:06.080which that is a kind of a misinterpretation of the data that you know people who practice
00:15:15.540mindfulness have skills kind of to navigate the world that will support them and therefore can
00:15:24.740kind of support them through anxiety and depression and through adversity and like things like that
00:15:30.100But it doesn't mean that they're necessarily happier or that bad things don't happen.
00:15:36.720You know, I think that that's something we see with a lot of the way that research gets interpreted or communicated in general right now is that, you know, do mindfulness and you'll be happier.
00:15:50.540And that's a bad kind of expectation to set up.
00:15:53.960But it does give you skills to navigate things that are challenging.
00:15:58.260exactly exactly and you know there's all these books that are actually that are titled you know
00:16:05.26010% happier which is about mindfulness and meditation and I do think that that is that
00:16:10.680is kind of a misnomer in a lot of ways uh you know I I think you'll be more present and like
00:16:16.740we said more curious but not necessarily more joyous I think so much of the parenting advice
00:16:24.200that we get thrown at us on social media centers on that we should be happier all the time with
00:16:33.640our children. And I find that very overwhelming. Yeah. I think any expectation to be happy is kind
00:16:43.500of a setup to not be happy. So that's a good starting place. The goal should not be happiness
00:16:50.100because we'll be disappointed and there are beautiful joyful moments of parenthood there
00:16:58.080is no denying that there is definitely smiles and laughter and happiness but that you know
00:17:03.500there's a lot that is really difficult and we need to find that balance it doesn't all need
00:17:08.580to be the dark side of parenthood but it also doesn't all need to be that it's happy and joyful
00:17:13.060And that's what you should be aiming for.
00:17:22.840We are going to take a quick break here.
00:17:24.840And when we get back, I want to talk a little bit about navigating the overwhelm of parenting information.
00:17:30.880You have three very helpful reframes for parents approaching this abundance of advice.
00:17:43.060And we are back. I want to sift through the intense overwhelm of parenting advice.
00:17:52.860You posted something called, When Does Parenting Advice Feel Good? And, you know, it's the process
00:18:00.220of how we receive and integrate advice that itches your brain as much as the content does.
00:18:06.540Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, so itches my brain in particular
00:18:13.040I think this happened when I left my position after my fourth child was born. And so I'm the stay at home parent after working full time with my other three kids. And I'm taking more and more of this parent content in and, you know, applying it in my new role of being at home.
00:18:36.660And it just kept bugging me about how, who's, who's the messenger and what the messages are and who has access to them and, and what people kind of take on and own and what people maybe reject.
00:18:53.820And that kind of stuff, just I'm so curious about it. And I think that that is kind of a helpful, as I said in the beginning of kind of like, how do we sift through the advice? So it's not even just the advice itself. It's what tools do we have to kind of navigate it?
00:19:12.560uh and so that's where that post was coming from was just like kind of where
00:19:16.780we hear a lot about the advice that's not helpful um i'm curious about when it works for people
00:19:23.940like what does it feel like who's the messenger like what are the what are the factors that are
00:19:29.140contributing to that i love the phrase itches my brain because that's what that's what that's
00:19:38.440what it feels like a lot of times it does it does feel like this advice is touching my brain
00:19:43.260um sometimes it's scratching it yes and I do not I do not like that um sometimes it tickles it
00:19:51.580and that is nice like your meditation advice I love your meditation advice
00:19:55.300so you talk a lot about cognitive reframing what is that and how can we use it as parents
00:20:04.980yeah so cognitive reframing is kind of taking a different perspective uh on a thought that
00:20:13.820you're having so once again this is like a step back from the advice the content or what the
00:20:20.120advice says is kind of less important in this instance it's how are we relating to the advice
00:20:25.460and so using cognitive reframing you know if you're on social media and you're scrolling
00:20:31.620and you see something and, you know, it instantly kind of starts to get you stressed out or it's
00:20:37.840something you feel like you're not doing well or you need to act on, you need to make a change of
00:20:44.420some sort. Kind of taking this step back about how am I experiencing this advice and working
00:20:53.000with kind of the thoughts that are coming up related to the advice. And so that's where the
00:20:57.980cognitive reframe comes in? How can I kind of think about this differently as opposed to I'm
00:21:03.760doing something wrong or, you know, I haven't done that or I didn't do that. What is, you know,
00:21:11.220available to me to kind of reframe this? And so those were aimed at kind of common things that
00:21:18.240I think that we experience when we see parenting information, like when we see someone posting
00:21:24.880about how to prevent tantrums or, um, things that are really developmentally normal, but
00:21:32.700sound really scary because we're seeing all of these posts of how to prevent them, how
00:21:37.180to stop them, how to, and it feels like, oh my gosh, my kid is having a tantrum.
00:26:48.720I've used kind of like this is not my context, right?
00:26:52.380like this is that's that's not me or that's not my life that's not my kid uh and that can be a
00:26:59.600helpful like reminder that like that's a great strategy that someone has for after school time
00:27:06.560right like they they bake with their kids or whatever it is that's like super difficult to get
00:27:12.340going in your house and like that's great but that's not my contest right we we're all coming
00:27:19.820you know to parenthood and we're in parenthood with different things and different lives
00:27:25.460and we you know have to account for our context may be different and so that is really helpful
00:27:32.740to kind of remind yourself that like that's it's separate it's not something that is them
00:27:42.020right exactly exactly now i want to talk a little bit about your journey
00:27:48.820to be the primary parent and how you chose to take that on you didn't do it with your first
00:27:54.760child you did it with your fourth child tell me about how you got there yeah so um i don't
00:28:02.200recommend this i resigned when i was on maternity leave okay okay you know what we all do that we
00:28:08.840we all do what we have to do. Yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, I went on maternity leave with my fourth
00:28:17.480child and I had every intention of returning to my position and I had a wonderful job that I loved.
00:28:24.500I worked at a pediatric medical center. I worked with medical teams and kids who were having
00:28:32.880surgery. And it was a wonderful job. I loved the families I worked with. I was also, I had some
00:28:41.540leadership roles within my behavioral health department. And so I was managing people.
00:28:48.020And, you know, it got to a point where I took that little step back of being on maternity leave
00:28:56.280and kind of just being like i don't want to go back and this is and like i was not in a place
00:29:04.300of burnout this was you know a couple years after the pandemic which was total craziness
00:29:10.800of working in a hospital setting um and i i just i had that little bit of space and i could see
00:29:19.520that i couldn't go back and i think everyone you know speculated and made their stories of like
00:29:25.600oh she must be opening a private practice or you know has another job set up or something i had no
00:29:31.640like grand plan it just became clear that like it was not going to be sustainable for me uh and at
00:29:38.980the time uh you know my kids were not formally identified as neurodivergent even though we were
00:29:45.140moving in that direction knew other things were going on and that was a lot too there was a lot
00:29:51.840going on at home. And I felt like I needed to be at home so that I could be more intentional.
00:29:58.560But it wasn't any one thing. It sounds like a nice, like linear story, but it wasn't.
00:30:05.140There was a lot of different factors. I loved my job. Luckily, there was someone amazing
00:30:11.700lined up to take on my role. And so that was very hard to kind of feel like I was leaving
00:30:18.260people in a lurch or there was someone amazing, ready to go. And so that's kind of how I came to
00:30:25.740be the same parent. And at the time I felt like, okay, I'm going to be really intentional. We just
00:30:32.960need some consistency because we had had babies coming in the house and pandemic and all these
00:30:41.180transitions. And it was like, oh, this is going to be like the stabilizing factors. I was going to
00:30:46.060I'm home. It was still pretty, pretty difficult. And it was super chaotic and kind of sorting out
00:30:55.700how to support everyone's needs. And, you know, it was an uncomfortable couple of years. It was
00:31:03.180great. It was the right choice for our family. Absolutely. But it was still really difficult
00:31:08.280to kind of sort it out. And and then in the meantime, I'm kind of at home just have, you
00:31:15.820know, these ideas banging around in my head, just like I have some thoughts about the parentscape
00:31:26.960out there. And that's what brought me to writing on Substack. I think that's one thing that's shown
00:31:34.220as very black and white or one size fits all on social media and in culture, that there's one way
00:31:41.140to be the primary parent at home that that it's an easy decision for everyone and i think there's
00:31:48.960as many ways to be the parent that's working at home as there are parents in the world
00:31:53.820yes absolutely and it's it's very great like i i write on substack i write well i'm home with my
00:32:04.500kids and my youngest will be going to preschool next year. And so that will create an opportunity
00:32:11.400to do more things and different things. But it's not like this very like clean, like, oh, I left
00:32:19.440and, you know, I'm a stay at home mom and that's it. Like, it's very murky. It's all it's all very
00:32:26.280murky. And parenthood is murky. Marriages are murky. How has it been for you making that
00:32:34.200transition to carrying so much more of the, not just the mental load, but also the physical
00:32:40.500load as a parent? I mean, it is hard. I think that that is where I have used some of the tools
00:32:51.980that I write about, about mindfulness and kind of how to care for myself, because without that,
00:32:59.360I would lose my mind. And I think another like important thing to say is that I also went into
00:33:07.500therapy, which we need to talk about because people should feel comfortable saying that
00:33:13.440they've been to therapy. And that was a huge support and kind of navigating these transitions
00:33:18.860and in thinking about kind of how I was going to move forward. So that's really important.
00:33:25.040And, you know, I think that caring for yourself, no matter whether you're a stay-at-home parent or working parent or whatever, is incredibly important.
00:33:36.300And I had to figure out how to do that properly.
00:33:39.120I, you know, had worked really hard for many years and I realized that like I had not been paying attention to really caring for myself and and doing the things that I needed to to have, you know, to be well.
00:33:56.700what are some of the things that you do to care for yourself let's leave listeners with that
00:34:03.140tell me what you do for you and then what is what is one thing that you think
00:34:06.920we could all just try today to take care of ourselves a little better
00:34:11.960um so the things i do i prioritize movement i have to move um and once again like think
00:34:20.800small it doesn't need to be exercise in you know going to the gym and working intensely it's a walk
00:34:28.500outside it's a short walk it's stretching standing up if you're sitting sitting down if you're
00:34:34.920standing um just moving your body in different ways so that's really important for me that's
00:34:41.160the way that i care for myself uh i do meditate i meditate in these like very brief imperfect
00:34:49.500chunks uh it's something that i can keep in my routine in the morning um but sometimes it's like
00:34:57.220for five minutes it is it is not long it is imperfect but i i kind of have that placeholder
00:35:04.580there to sit some days it's awful like i can't you know i've got lots of ideas running through
00:35:10.500my head and i'm i'm like am i really meditating and i'm like well at least i sit down to to have
00:35:16.880that moment for myself. So, you know, those are things that, and like I said, I think therapy,
00:35:24.680being connected to the people you love, talking to friends, family, all of those things are ways
00:35:30.520that we can care for ourselves. I think what people can start today is just think about where
00:35:38.380you can pause, right? And I know people hate to like, here, take a deep breath. Don't do that.
00:35:46.880You can always pause. That's always available to you before you move forward. And it helps you see the choices clearly that are available to you. And I think that's where you can start. Just how can I pause?
00:36:05.360I like bite-sized bits of self-care. And in fact, maybe that's what we should call this episode,
00:36:15.340bite-sized bits. Because while I would love to go to a 45-minute Pilates class every day and then
00:36:25.660take a cold plunge, I have been strapped to my desk every day, except for this jaunt to Mexico.
00:36:33.120but I was still doing interviews there, which was crazy because I'm gearing up for this book launch
00:36:38.960and probably not being as kind to myself as I should be. But I think I know that and I'm trying
00:36:46.940to remedy it. Also, everyone buy the Sicilian inheritance. It's going to be out so freaking0.98
00:36:51.240soon. Little things I try to do is I'm like, it's OK if you get on the Peloton for five minutes,
00:36:58.080even that's moving your body like just little i think i think sometimes we're so trained to think
00:37:04.500that more is better and especially with parenting we just have to think just try try to start with
00:37:12.040the little things right yes yes oh i love this conversation thank you for being in the mud with
00:37:20.780me today. Absolutely. Will you tell people where they can find you? They can find me at Mindful
00:37:28.260in the Mud Substack. I'm on Instagram too as Mindful Mom in the Mud. I don't do much over
00:37:36.700there. So I would say Substack is the place to come find me. That is all we have for today.