00:03:51.080Well, it helps to understand a little bit about the kinds of uncertainties that humans face.
00:03:57.420So just in brief, brief, brief, we are in a period of great unpredictability, volatility, you know, from everything from job hours to the weather pattern.
00:04:07.880So we all know that it's in the headlines.
00:04:10.020But that's a certain kind of uncertainty, so to speak.
00:04:16.160And it's really a shorthand for the unknown, you know, kind of what you can't control, what you can't really fully know, even if you have an app for that, even if you've got the models, et cetera.
00:04:25.860You don't know if it's going to rain three inches or five inches on your backyard next
00:07:51.380I've traveled after each of my babies, and it's really shaken me out of my postpartum
00:07:55.020anxiety, despite the fact that travel is inherently uncertain.
00:07:58.820Like, we don't know what's going to happen next.
00:08:00.760But the expectation is that, oh, this is an adventure.
00:08:03.860This uncertainty is probably good for me. And this is like this is going to be exciting. And yet when we're faced with uncertainty in, say, the job market of getting laid off and having to face those challenges, there's a negative bias before we even begin. So we don't see it as the same kind of adventure, despite the fact that it's the same uncertainty that's there. So it really is this mental shift that I think would would do all of us so much good.
00:08:31.580Yeah. And of course, life is not a picnic. And when you have a cancer diagnosis or you do lose your job, that in and of itself is not a good uncertainty. But at the same time, by pivoting, as you're saying, by kind of looking at the world with curiosity and wonder and not with that fear that cloaks everything we do, we can actually move forward.
00:08:57.620And when you're uncertain, when you're in that moment, scientists call it arousal.
00:09:02.200That's when you're really, as I'm saying, wakeful, when you're really on your toes.
00:09:07.100So if you walk into that Monday morning meeting, there are a couple of different ways you can kind of inhibit or refuse to pick up on the wisdom of uncertainty.
00:09:15.760You know, first of all, you can think, oh, life isn't going to change.
00:09:22.780And, oh, this is just going to be the same old boring meeting.
00:09:25.320Well, studies show that, you know, scientifically, you're more less likely to pick up on uncertainty in the room or the nuances, the change in the tone, et cetera.
00:09:36.500But at the same time, fear and anxiety, like, oh, my gosh, I'm so upset about having a meeting with my boss that I'm not actually present in the room.
00:09:46.420I'm more thinking about how I might get fired or thinking how I might not get my bonus.
00:09:51.180So actually, uncertainty is not just a kind of wakefulness.
00:09:55.840I think of it as a kind of honesty because you're really right there.
00:10:00.220If you're uncertain, it's also a space of possibilities.
00:10:04.280So you're picking up on what might be because that's what uncertainty is.
00:10:19.720you know, the product might work, but I'm not sure. So you can see when I'm talking about it,
00:10:24.440there are possibilities there. And so it really is, I do open water four season swimming. It
00:10:31.060happened when the pools closed during the pandemic. I kind of moved more, you know, to the ocean. I
00:10:36.640was in city ocean, city ocean, but now I live mostly by the ocean because I started swimming
00:10:41.500and then I just kept going in the fall and the winter. And that is pure uncertainty. I mean,
00:10:46.380honestly even one minute into your swim you don't know what the waves or the you know currents or
00:10:54.160the you know wildlife around you know anything is going to do yeah you have no idea no you really
00:10:59.880don't know because of the ocean after all it's out your head uh and i can only kind of you know
00:11:04.840not get lost and that kind of thing but what i realized i kept thinking why why is this so good
00:11:10.160oh yeah it's exercise oh it's great social hour you know during pandemic which was golden
00:11:15.300But I really finally, after a few years of doing this, realized that it's a daily dose of uncertainty. And so it's wonderful that it actually carries over into the rest of my day. You know, when things don't go as I planned, well, I'm kind of, you know, swimming in it in a in a more open minded way, you know, curious way. And that's a really great place to be.
00:11:41.340it is it is you know I was I was very surprised I had never done an open water swim before I did
00:11:49.400a triathlon in Key West and I was like it'll it'll be the same as the pool it's fine and I
00:11:55.760had a massive panic attack the first time that I got into that that water I mean it's dark and
00:12:01.780it's murky and there's things that are touching you from below and you don't know what those
00:12:04.960things are um but I got through it I pushed through it I didn't grab the kayak I went for it
00:12:10.100And when I felt out, when I got out, I felt amazing.
00:12:38.780and answer. Oh, yes, I can. Or maybe I had to cut it short that day. So you're opening up the space
00:12:44.780between question and answer, but you're doing it in a way that you're, you know, at the edge of
00:12:49.840what you know, you know, not you're not sort of leaping into, you know, in over your head
00:12:55.100metaphorically and also physically. And that's where humans thrive. There's something called
00:13:00.080the zone of proximal development, which is often used for child development. It's kind of a euphemism
00:13:06.260for that scaffolding you can do. Your kid's doing a puzzle. They're a little stuck. It's a little
00:13:10.980old for them. You give them a little helping hand. You're helping them remain on the zone of proximal
00:13:16.140development. But that's basically how all humans thrive. We flourish. One scientist told me it's
00:13:25.040like the green buds on the tree. It's where we're kind of putting out shoots. And that's where
00:13:29.900uncertainty. It's like if you are certain your mind is closed, you know the way or you think
00:13:36.020you do, and then you're going to be blindsided or you are closing out that opportunity. I'm certain
00:13:44.300the party will be bad, so I'm not going to go or that date won't work out. So I think it's easier
00:13:50.740to stay home and watch a movie. And that's really not picking up on the uncertainty and the
00:13:57.600opportunity that is uncertainty. We are going to take a quick break here. Be right back.
00:14:15.360Did researching and writing this book change how you view these things? I don't want to be so glib
00:14:22.260is to say, did it change your life? But, you know, did it did it bring more curiosity to your days?
00:14:30.460Absolutely. I was surprised. I was almost reluctant to write this book. I was writing a
00:14:35.500book about thinking in the digital age and what kinds of thinking we need. And the first chapter
00:14:40.260was about uncertainty. And then I discovered all this new research, which was fascinating. And then
00:14:45.700how wrong we are. And well, you know, we thinking of uncertainty as weakness and inertia. So, you
00:14:51.240know, flat out, I just decided to write about the book. But time and time again, I mean, I wrote
00:14:56.100about creative de-dreaming and the kind of productive uncertainty that the expert, like the
00:15:02.400surgeon needs when they're in a crisis. And I wrote about the uncertainty that helps us get along with
00:15:08.060people whose politics we loathe. And I really found that, you know, first of all, it helped me
00:15:15.080see the world as inherently unpredictable. Because, you know, I often really did think,
00:15:23.060oh, my research or my writing should go more smoothly. And what's wrong with me that I'm
00:15:28.460frustrated and that I can't find the answer to this question when I'm, you know, doing my research.
00:15:33.860But I realized and, you know, studies bear this out that, you know, research is frustrating and
00:15:42.000writing is frustrating, that's, that's code word for your thinking. And so, and so that was the
00:15:49.080first P. Also, just in little ways, you know, I realized that when a friend or one of my daughters
00:15:55.060was in crisis, I would, you know, be there for them, but very often, and I think other people
00:16:01.880are the same way, I would want to offer a solution and, you know, and, and, and kind of suggest this,
00:16:10.160You can do this, this and this. And then I realized that actually I could be there with them, not in a passive way, but in a more kind of holding on to the space of uncertainty together in a way that enabled them to reflect on the possibilities rather than have me kind of nudge them like a shepherd dog down one path that I thought was the right path.
00:16:36.520And so, yeah, there's this sort of opening up with uncertainty. And, you know, it's never a picnic. Uncertainty is not where humans want to be. I think that often is the sort of image of the rabbit in the field, you know, freezing, you know, it's kind of not where they want to be.
00:16:54.900But that's how we evolved to actually pick up information, that sort of freeze response that evolved into reflection and, you know, making use of uncertainty.
00:17:04.260And so I think it's but the difference between people who are anxious, actually, and fear the undone and and people who can be curious and wondering and et cetera, is that the first group, the fearful group, sees uncertainty as threatening.
00:17:21.120And the second group who has more kind of mental well-being, it sees the uncertainty as a challenge.
00:17:30.000So threatening versus challenge, that's really important.
00:17:35.340And so we don't have to think this is easy street and we don't have to think of this
00:17:41.480is a picnic or why am I not super comfortable with bungee jumping?
00:17:46.000Oh, you know, I mean, we can be challenged by uncertainty and yet really thrive in it.
00:17:52.620And that's I that was a really big thing. You know, that was sort of a multi-year revelation to me.
00:18:01.760You know, when I was when I was reading the book, I also kept thinking about my own journey through motherhood of becoming a mother.
00:18:10.740You know, seven years ago, I had my first baby and I remember nothing went as planned.
00:18:18.660The birth didn't go as planned. The babies do not go according to your plan. You have no idea what it is going to do next. And that uncertainty really broke me the first time around. It did. It did. It turned me into an anxious mess.
00:18:34.520And when I had my second baby and really when I had my third baby, I like the uncertainty, I allowed it to turn into what you what you call a certain curiosity.
00:18:48.000I was like, you can't approach it as if all of this is going to be bad or dangerous or terrible.
00:18:53.040You have to approach every part of this parenting journey with curiosity or you're not going to get through it, girlfriend.
00:19:01.360Exactly. And I think it's important to realize that there are really big, you know, natural cognitive reasons why we do want familiar and we thrive and we need familiar and routine and predictable, etc.
00:19:16.140Because, you know, we learn from the past and then we have expectations that something will be the same.
00:19:23.520Like I wake up and know I can, you know, get, you know, go on the commute to work and I'm not going to have to think too deeply about that.
00:19:43.500That shows we've accrued life experience. And even when you're pregnant, you read about kids and you kind of learn. And then, you know, then comes along what the scientists call prediction error, you know, aka uncertainty. And your mental models are broken down. And yet that's the reality check that we need in order to update our understanding of the world.
00:20:08.420And we just can thrive in that. But it's doesn't, again, it's not, it's not easy street. And so it's okay to kind of, you know, know that we will yearn from the familiar, but also know that we all, you know, I called it an epic chance when I first discovered all this about the, you know, pivot point certainties.
00:20:30.320And in a draft of my one chapter, I call this an epic chance. You have an epic chance when you're uncertain to, you know, move forward and update your idea of the world. And then, you know, and my co-agent was looking and saying, epic, that's too strong. And I assert it's epic. This is epic. This is epic.
00:20:51.100and also I love it does feel epic yeah and I love the idea that you know Annie Lamont wrote that
00:20:59.260book operating instructions as in there aren't any with parenting it's uh it's really true my
00:21:05.640um little confession is that my when my first born you know came along okay yes I I raised a
00:21:13.000baby for a few years and then the second born second came along and I kind of thought that
00:21:17.600she would be the same way i thought if one spit up the other one would spit up if one you know0.93
00:21:21.960napped at this time the other one and that was now i think that i think are you crazy do you
00:21:26.920really think two human beings be uh that much different you know that much the same so anyhow
00:21:31.940i was you know prediction error prediction error shocking shocking i'm like no of course i mean
00:21:38.900if one slept through the night at three months why did i think the other one was going to sleep
00:21:42.620through the night at three months. That is crazy. Right. That is crazy. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
00:21:48.220exactly. Well, you went, you went to the subject of uncertainty, um, from the subject of, of being
00:21:56.740distracted, um, which I also, you know, just blew my mind in, I'm going to say an epic way,
00:22:04.740an epic way. And I do not think that that, that, that, that is too, that is too much.
00:22:09.240We talk so much on this podcast about how we are all so distracted and pulled in so many different directions at once.
00:22:19.840But, you know, I think I ended your book feeling hopeful that we're not going to a terrible place because of this distraction.
00:25:25.060And then finally, there's executive attention, kind of the symphony conductor of your mind,
00:25:30.800because what you attend to is what your life is.
00:25:34.640And and I would say this is why I wanted to write about uncertainty, because so if you can have some skill in focusing and now we're beginning to learn how and putting down our devices is just one part of that.
00:25:51.000If you can have that, well, then, you know, what, how will you think or what will you do with the thinking mind that you've, that you've enabled by being focused? And, and uncertainty is, is the unsung skill set there.
00:26:05.800So I'm also, I'm just to briefly at one more point to probe is that, you know, technology, the history of technology comes in stages.
00:26:18.120This occurred, I did a lot of study, the augment of the telephone or even the bicycle or the telegraph, et cetera.
00:26:24.660And what happens is the inventors dominate the conversation and try to tell the public what it's good for.
00:26:31.220And then people adopt these technologies and then they're kind of, you know, not sure, but they are usually falling into, oh, this is all wonderful or this is going to ruin our lives. So we have this binary, you know, kind of stage. And then there's a more nuanced, mature discussion. And that's where we're here at now.
00:26:53.000I think the backlash that we've seen, but then the, you know, the investigation of detoxes and then, you know, just today in The New York Times, there's a big article about an Australian school where the kids go and don't have any technology for a year.
00:27:06.580wow, hey, it's happening. We're innovating. We're experimenting. And as long as we can keep hold of
00:27:12.280the idea that technology doesn't have all the answers for how we use technology, if you know
00:27:19.600what I mean, then we can retain our humanity and capture and be skillfully attentive.
00:27:29.300Yeah, no. And that's I think that that's what I found so hopeful. I mean, I love things that are
00:27:34.540these kinds of reminders of we can be skillfully attentive. We're in control here when we choose to
00:27:41.000be. Exactly. Exactly. And the mantra that, oh, it's coming or technology is with us or that
00:27:49.400removes the agency or whatever word you want to control, the power of them to control every
00:27:55.640minute of your day. You're making minor or, you know, kind of the fabric of life is made up of
00:28:01.120tiny little decisions. Right now, I'm trying to persuade my husband not to use his cell phone in
00:28:07.260the bedroom because I know technology. And it's just there's no reason why he has to, you know,
00:28:13.200look at the surf report, which we do need for our swimming. But, you know, just before bed or the
00:28:18.540baseball scores, that's a kind of a great time for us to talk or, you know, just to have a human room
00:28:25.060left and and you know i'll link this also to uncertainty because one of the ways i tried to
00:28:32.780look investigate distraction by doing a kind of walkabout and thinking about it in all these
00:28:38.300different ways everything from mobile living to the virtual spaces seemingly heaven-like and all
00:28:45.680and i did the same thing with uncertainty i'm trying to walk about it and see it in different
00:28:50.100modes. And I mentioned daydreaming, I mentioned deliberation, but there's also doing nothing.
00:28:56.840That's a kind of, you know, your grandmother or whoever says sleep on the problem, honey,
00:29:02.600or, you know, take a moment. And the science behind that is overwhelmingly, you know,
00:29:11.700the jury is in. If you even rest for five minutes after learning, you know, just, I don't know,
00:29:17.180learning something on YouTube or being in a conference and hearing a great lecture or
00:29:22.300presentation, you take five minutes and do nothing. Now, I mean nothing. Don't think about
00:29:27.500you just learned nothing. And certainly don't be on technology that you'll you'll not only
00:29:33.120boost your memory for that by 20, 30 percent, which is pretty stunning, but you're also more
00:29:38.580likely to get the gist of it or can make connections. This is, you know, the kind of
00:29:44.540doing nothing that is really seen as unproductive, but it also is, you know, tremendously productive
00:29:54.200in a kind of stealth way. The studies are amazing. So it's really important to just
00:30:01.060allow the mind to catch up with experience. That's what I think of it as.
00:30:07.420Oh, I love that. I really love that. I mean, the case for doing nothing is something I remind
00:30:12.660myself of every single day. And yet I need the reminder every single day, which, yeah, yeah. And
00:30:20.200I'm also on a mission to have my husband not use the phone in the bedroom. And, you know, let me
00:30:26.260know if you find that trick, that magic thing that keeps it out, because I haven't figured it out yet.
00:30:33.100Yeah, I'm trying, you know, speaking of incremental, I'm trying to ask for, maybe this is too much,
00:30:41.220but I'll try it for a month because I found that when it, you know, there was no phone
00:30:47.260in the bedroom for some accidental reason, even for a night, the whole tone changed and we were
00:30:54.120sort of more together and present. I don't think he completely saw that as much as I did, but I'm
00:30:59.120trying this sort of, let's try an experiment with this and then hopefully the recognition won't go.
00:31:05.280And then there's always just, oh, you know, kind of crying.
00:31:26.620It just as maybe it can for all of us, you know, incremental little ways are really important.
00:31:35.280And, you know, that's really and the other thing that's really interesting, I think, about the whole idea of pausing, I call it fallow time.
00:31:42.340It's not just the five minutes, but it's also putting something aside.