Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Could Your Family Opt out of Technology？ This One Did! Here's How.

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00:00:48.640 Hello, all.

00:00:50.540 It is definitely summer and my kids are definitely around me more.

00:00:56.420 They are. They are. And that always makes me think about how I want to be using technology

00:01:03.420 and screens in my house. This is a big issue. In fact, it should be a bigger issue in the world.

00:01:10.680 It should be something that all politicians are talking about, that all academics are researching. 0.92

00:01:18.180 And yet, and yet, and yet, because it involves women and mothers and children,

00:01:22.300 it's mostly been up to us to decide how our kids will use screens and consume social media content. 0.90

00:01:31.160 Today I'm bringing on a woman who I think made a really brave decision to just opt out of

00:01:38.720 technology. She calls her family an opt-out family. Social media influencer Erin Lochner

00:01:46.100 walked away from millions of fans. She walked away. She walked away from a business that was 0.99

00:01:52.140 making her a lot of money. And now her and her husband and their three kids spend their days

00:01:59.120 offline. We've all heard the statistics about technology and social media use, and how our

00:02:05.060 obsession with smartphones and social media is eroding the very essence of our homes and families.

00:02:11.480 We see it, we feel it, we know it. Well, Erin is finally trying to do something about it. And

00:02:18.160 She's trying to help others unlock a world where genuine connections flourish and technology takes 0.90

00:02:23.940 a back seat. She wants to help you reclaim your home and build a tech-free family culture that 0.58

00:02:31.260 is stronger than your Wi-Fi signal. Erin's book, The Opt-Out Family, How to Give Your Kids What

00:02:37.640 Technology Can't, is a roadmap. It's a roadmap and a guide and also just a fun romp through her own

00:02:46.300 journey, because I love knowing how other people do this. Sharing stories is the only way that

00:02:52.240 we're going to figure all of this out. And Erin has a lot of stories. Her research and insights

00:02:59.260 will help you experience more quality time with your children that doesn't revolve around screens,

00:03:04.280 create healthy habits as a family that will set your children up for success in the future,

00:03:08.340 and discover what your kids actually need from you and learn how to delight and engage them

00:03:13.200 better than a device ever could. Because you can. You can. As Erin will tell me in this

00:03:19.740 interview, it is up to us as parents to be much, much more interesting than the algorithm.

00:03:30.440 Good morning. I'm excited. I'm so excited. I can't believe I got you. I think I got you

00:03:39.000 on the last day before you're checking back off of the social medias, of the medias, of the

00:03:45.940 digitals, right? Yeah, never came back on social media. That's a done deal. But I did have to sort

00:03:51.820 I'm doing, you know, the podcasts and the in the talks and kind of dipping a toe back in internet

00:03:56.640 culture. And it's a little bit like, I've seen too much. I need to go away again. You've seen

00:04:03.200 too much. You're like, take me away from Oz. This is done. Get me get me out of here. So you're done

00:04:07.960 today is your last day. I have so many things I want to ask you. First off, I mean, you're my

00:04:12.980 hero, okay? You're my hero. I want to be you. When I grow up, all I want to do is get to where you

00:04:18.980 are. Give us the quick and dirty lowdown about the opt-out family and what you're doing now,

00:04:26.820 and then we're going to back all the way up and do the big picture.

00:04:29.760 Love it. Okay, yeah. So the reason I had to come back on the internet after being

00:04:33.660 for probably three or four years.

00:04:35.920 And I was an early influencer from the thousands,

00:04:41.220 whatever we call them, the aughts, early aughts.

00:04:43.340 Yeah, we call them the aught thousands. 0.99

00:04:45.660 We do. 1.00

00:04:46.500 I like that.

00:04:47.400 Okay.

00:04:47.620 I don't know what the verbiage is anymore.

00:04:49.520 And I don't know what's problematic anymore.

00:04:51.100 So you can fix whatever you need to.

00:04:52.940 Oh, amazing.

00:04:53.960 Actually, you know what?

00:04:54.660 I would love to meet someone who has been like frozen in ice

00:04:59.080 since the 90s and doesn't know what's problematic anymore

00:05:01.300 because I think they'd be a lot of fun.

00:05:02.820 It's a lot of fun.

00:05:03.660 I'm doing a lot of learning it's lovely actually it's great it's better better to learn that in

00:05:07.760 person than not us yes exactly uh so anyway so I wrote the book the opt-out family how to give

00:05:13.820 your kids what technology can't and the whole reason I wrote it was really because um I'm

00:05:19.580 always banging the drum about how social media is not good for us and we need to just just make

00:05:25.220 the call and get off it's we are at that way past that tipping point where it's like we are just

00:05:29.760 now fully aware that we are in an absolutely manipulative relationship.

00:05:34.860 And we're just sort of, you know, I think for some of us, we believe that the pros outweigh

00:05:40.720 the cons. And so we stay. And I was one that just didn't want to say anymore. So really,

00:05:45.820 I wrote the book because I don't like how we approach the narratives of kids and technology.

00:05:52.340 I think it comes from very fear-based. We know we have many, many pearls to clutch on the subject.

00:05:57.340 And I think there's a lot of room for that. It is terrible, the world that we are offering them. And I want to see it change. And yet, I want to see it change in a way that offers them a little more fun.

00:06:08.720 So kind of this book is really, it's a, it's a bit of a parenting book veiled as a technology book, I will say, because what I realized through sort of many, many conversations in the boardroom of Silicon Valley, they're really, really good at what they do. And a lot of what they do is rooted in science and in psychology and mainly in child psychology.

00:06:29.420 And so honestly, I thought, okay, well, what if we sort of steal all of their tips and tricks to keep us addicted to our phone? And what if we put them into play in our house? What if we make our house engaging again and make sort of our relationships with each other less content moderating and more mentoring? Can we just sort of start there and see what happens?

00:06:53.400 And so that's really why I wrote the book.

00:06:55.840 So I interviewed over 250 people, kids, teens.

00:06:58.240 I am happy to report everybody's over it.

00:07:00.420 We're all tired of technology.

00:07:02.080 And so we're now, I know, we're now at this place where we get to decide what to do next.

00:07:07.420 I love everything about this.

00:07:09.180 Like I said, I have so many questions.

00:07:10.640 So many questions.

00:07:12.300 We are going to dig into, I want everyone to buy your book, The Opt-Op Family, immediately.

00:07:16.980 There's no reason, like it should be up there with Jonathan Haidt's book, The Anxious Generation.

00:07:21.820 let's get it on all of the crazy lists let's do all of the things to make that happen uh but i

00:07:28.580 want to back up before we get into the meat of the how do you do this you were an early influencer

00:07:35.380 in in in the odd the audience let's just call it the audience i like it do it yeah yeah that's fun

00:07:42.740 we started it um what kind of influencer were you what were you doing you had over a million

00:07:48.160 followers. Yeah. You know, I, I fell into the world. Actually, I hate that phrase because it

00:07:54.460 makes it sound like you passed out and you just like woke up on a blog and that's not fair. But

00:07:59.000 what did happen was I just, I had always blogged. I blogged, you know, in high school and college,

00:08:04.840 it was just, you know, Zynga account early days. And I just always, I, I, at the time it felt like

00:08:12.640 a perfectly normal thing to do if he wanted to be kind of angsty about life for a minute. And so

00:08:16.960 as I then grew up and I found myself in Los Angeles, I got married. I was curating galleries.

00:08:22.800 I was working magazine sets. I was doing, um, a lot of writing, a lot of styling and it was a

00:08:28.760 really interesting way to live. And I thought, Oh, it would be really fun to share some of this

00:08:33.080 share. I hate that. I hate that word too. There's so much about what we said.

00:08:36.660 There's so many words we can just get rid of. We can get rid of this. And, um, but it, it was,

00:08:42.020 it was like, this is a cool thing that, and I want everybody to know what it actually looks

00:08:46.420 like, because it doesn't look like what we think it looks like. And so I started writing and

00:08:51.720 blogging kind of behind the scenes in the art world and in the design world. And then we moved

00:08:56.820 to the Midwest, my father or my husband's father became ill. And we moved in to become as caretakers.

00:09:02.700 And I found myself like, well, there's, what am I going to do here, right? I don't have kind of

00:09:07.580 the backdrop of this story anymore. And so we bought a fixer upper and I pitched HGTV and said,

00:09:13.660 hey, do you want a dot com show? Do you want at the time there wasn't there wasn't social media

00:09:18.880 at all. It was just, hey, let's show people what a renovation actually looks like, because right

00:09:24.520 now on TV, you're only seeing 30 minutes and it's all glossy. And let's let's show what does happen

00:09:29.240 when you're trying to renovate and have a marriage at the same time. And so they left it and we

00:09:35.700 pitched it and we filmed for two years, 24 episodes. I got pregnant. I realized I don't

00:09:41.200 want to live in a showroom I pivoted into sort of more uh home content I wouldn't really say I've

00:09:48.980 ever been a parenting blogger or um I've always been pretty private with my kids we didn't show

00:09:54.540 their faces online we didn't share their real names online that was sort of evident that that

00:09:58.680 was probably a good idea having the public facing platform of hdv that we did but um yeah that's

00:10:05.580 that's been sort of the trajectory and then I then I just decided as my kids got older

00:10:11.420 uh I wanted I was always banging the drum of hey I tech like I I would even almost keep my tech

00:10:21.160 usage and my job totally separate from them I don't even think they knew that I had a job they

00:10:25.620 probably didn't and so um I recognized as her friends as my oldest daughter started her friends

00:10:32.340 started getting phones and they started getting really into social media. And it was funny. One

00:10:36.000 of her friends was like, Oh, I saw your mom on Instagram. And she's like, I don't know what that

00:10:40.120 is. And I was like, go, I don't want you to know what that is. Perfect. Love it. And, um, and then

00:10:46.020 I began to see, Oh, this is a thing now influencing is a thing. It's a job. It's like, it happens in

00:10:53.180 the real world all the time. And, um, it, I just, I just didn't recognize that. I really didn't at

00:10:59.660 the time I thought I was just here in the dark writing on my keyboard and publishing it on the

00:11:03.360 ether. And then once it became a job job, um, and it's certainly a lucrative job, you make a lot of

00:11:09.780 money doing it. You can make a lot of money doing it. A lot of money. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, but I knew,

00:11:15.640 okay, number one, I'm going to be parenting with my phone and my hand a lot more for the long run

00:11:19.920 if I keep this job. And number two, I want to prove to my daughter that social media isn't

00:11:25.420 inevitable, that you don't need social media to be able to live a vibrant, rich, engaging life.

00:11:31.000 And I thought if anybody can still work without it, anybody that would maybe risk losing her job,

00:11:38.640 it would be the social media influencer that's not on social media. So I thought,

00:11:41.680 okay, I'm going first. I'm going to prove it and I'm going to do it. And I'm happy to say that,

00:11:45.720 yeah, you can still be a writer and work and talk about the things you love and not be a very

00:11:51.700 online person. Tell me everything. Tell me how, because I, I say this all the time. I'm desperate

00:11:58.980 to get offline, but I am a marketing monster for the Sicilian inheritance. Everyone continue to 0.99

00:12:04.320 buy, buy, buy. And I don't know how to do it offline because I will say the second I stop

00:12:10.300 posting, I feel like I lose, I lose sales. Like I lose engagement. Yeah. You probably do. You

00:12:18.660 probably do. I do. And so I think, uh, one thing that has been a really fun experiment with this

00:12:23.880 book, it just hit number one on Amazon, um, and then technology category. Yeah. Yeah. And amazing

00:12:29.140 without any social media, without, without the bells and whistles. Um, I think I've posted about

00:12:33.620 it a couple of times to my newsletter, um, which again, huge drop, you know, nobody keeps up with

00:12:39.360 you if you're not saying anything and that's okay. I, I, that's really kind of the goal. It's like,

00:12:42.940 all right, you need, let's like get back in our roots and let's find people to influence us that

00:12:47.700 we actually know that can hold us accountable, that we can be transparent with. If I can bring

00:12:52.660 a casserole to you, then you're in my community. And if I can't, then we can't really, we can be

00:12:57.320 close relationship, but we can't really be close, close. So anyway, I think the only reason it's

00:13:03.080 working is one-to-one relationships. I have found there has been, I published a book when I was an

00:13:08.920 influencer. There was a real shift, Joe, I know you can relate to this, but the first book, it felt

00:13:13.960 very like quid pro quo. Like I'm going to promote your thing and you're going to promote my thing.

00:13:18.540 And even if it doesn't totally, it doesn't totally align. We're still going to do it because,

00:13:23.140 because we're pals and we're like, we're in the same industry. And I like, I do,

00:13:26.560 I like the camaraderie of that. I really liked it. This is not that because I would feel weird

00:13:32.720 approaching someone. It's fun to talk to you because you're in, you get the influence or

00:13:37.700 you want to talk about the influence part. And that feels like a natural fit. I'm not going to

00:13:42.880 approach my home design pals and say, Hey, can you write, can you share this? It doesn't make

00:13:48.060 any sense for them to share it. And so, and I don't have anything to give in return. There's

00:13:52.940 no platform at all. So I find that the people that are interested in having the conversation

00:13:57.680 are strictly interested in the content of the conversation and not what I can do because I

00:14:04.080 can't do much of anything except a big thank you and gratitude. And I'm so appreciative for the

00:14:08.760 people that do still have the platforms, um, that have counted the cost and have recognized this is

00:14:14.240 still worth it for me in some way. Um, because I believe they do play a big role. And I think

00:14:21.000 the bummer is you guys are in this spot where you have to market your own work and everyone else's

00:14:27.720 to make, to kind of move the needle forward. And, um, in a way you've, you're, you're now

00:14:33.660 marketing experts and you do a great job at it. And yet, um, I feel, I feel that's a really

00:14:39.600 difficult space to be in. I really do. How are you doing? How are you doing? Oh, oh, not, not

00:14:46.320 great. Not great. No. And I, you know, I'm very honest about that all of the time. Also, my

00:14:53.760 allergies are out of control, but, um, yeah, no, I'm not, I'm not doing amazing mentally. I think

00:15:00.700 that my sleep is not great uh I'm definitely distracted I what is nice for me is that I know

00:15:08.920 that I'm cognizant of it right because I do this podcast because I talk about it so much because

00:15:14.460 I'm and I'm I I am ready to move on once I I keep saying I'm like give me that like give me the

00:15:22.480 summer give me the summer because I'm selling the book through the summer I'm on book tour right

00:15:26.000 um we'll see what happens after that and I want to hear about your after we're going to take a

00:15:32.220 really quick break right now and then when we get back I want to hear what it was like when you shut

00:15:37.380 it down and how you feel now you want to impress them on a first date but also play it cool

00:15:47.640 so what do you do I'm Rufy Thorpe and I wrote and read a real love story about a hinge couple

00:15:54.260 that navigated exactly that.

00:15:56.420 Listen to the free audiobook now.

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00:16:04.280 You knew what something was worth

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00:16:10.400 It just grew up.

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00:16:13.920 so you can build something real for the future

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00:16:32.620 Okay, we are back and I want to hear it all. You shut down all of the social media,

00:16:40.320 but have you shut down tech? What is your tech diet? Is there tech in your world,

00:16:46.560 in your kids' world? Tell me that before we talk about how you feel now.

00:16:50.080 yeah we don't do really a lot of tech at all and really in our everyday rhythms it doesn't it's not

00:16:56.240 a big factor um i'm big into shared tech if possible so like if we so i'm i'm open to a

00:17:04.480 family movie night here and there that's totally fine um but my kid you know we're just we just

00:17:09.720 don't really connect in that way so um i have a smartphone that i've made into a dumb phone

00:17:15.360 you know done the whole I always say like we can turn parental controls on ourself it's possible

00:17:20.220 like it's just they don't exist for the kids there I think they exist for the parents so like

00:17:23.980 um I just have you know uh text and phone and map um and then there's no internet access there's no

00:17:33.400 apps so honestly it's become and I made my phone into a black screen that was a really big thing

00:17:39.040 for me because it made it changed it from my phone to just a phone so now it just like sits

00:17:43.880 on the counter. It's not, it doesn't look fun. It's not mine. I haven't personalized anything

00:17:48.640 of it. There's no cute beach scenes. I don't have like the cute, like, oh, there's my kid's

00:17:52.700 pieces. This is lovely. It's, it's just, it's black. It's a, it's a thing. It's a screwdriver.

00:17:59.720 It's just sitting there. Yeah. It just sits there. Um, so I just don't really use them. I've done

00:18:04.900 the flip phone. I've done no phone. I've done like many, many experimentations and this is what's

00:18:09.960 working right now because I do need a camera to have a podcast with you. And really that's kind

00:18:17.300 of, so I have the camera thing turned back on. And then when we're done, I'm going to turn it

00:18:21.820 back off and probably leave it on the counter again. So it's, yeah, tech is not a big part

00:18:26.120 of our life. We have laptops and I keep kind of office hours, but we're not big. You know,

00:18:34.740 we have like CD, I think, I think here's what happens with technology. We just get on this

00:18:40.340 conveyor belt and then we're just on it. And then, and really it's not leading to our family goals.

00:18:45.200 It's leading to Silicon Valley's goals, which we all know are so skewed anyway. And so, um,

00:18:51.020 I try really to let, I try not to be on Spotify even, or listening to podcasts or, or having just

00:18:58.780 all of this extra information in my brain that really might not be useful to me yet.

00:19:03.760 i need i need buds instead of earbuds i will say that so what happened after i really stripped

00:19:12.800 this away is joe i will tell you i always thought that i was an introvert uh i really did and oh

00:19:18.460 interesting interesting okay yeah because i think that i'm i think i'm an introvert that can cosplay

00:19:23.360 as an extrovert yeah that's a perfect way to explain it because you've heard of i've heard

00:19:28.080 of like the ambiverts and i'm like i don't know if i fully buy that but but i think you're right

00:19:31.560 I think it's introverts pretending.

00:19:34.140 But I think I wasn't an introvert.

00:19:37.100 I was just overstimulated.

00:19:38.780 I was just so full of everybody else's thoughts and opinions and ideas by 9 a.m.

00:19:44.360 that I was done.

00:19:47.040 I didn't want to hear.

00:19:47.940 I didn't want to hear from anybody else.

00:19:49.460 I didn't want to hear from my kids that they wanted snacks.

00:19:51.120 I didn't want to hear from really anybody in my real life.

00:19:53.960 I was just done with the feedback.

00:19:56.360 And so when it, when I left, um, and I didn't leave in this big, like announcement way, I just kind of stopped logging on. And then I just realized I really like this better. And I'm going to just not go back. And then I went back and deleted everything. And, um, I, what I love now is you'll run into people in the grocery store or the coffee shop or whatever.

00:20:21.100 and you'll realize they had a baby and they didn't even know they had a baby and you can be

00:20:26.220 actually excited for them instead of, Oh, I missed that online. And why didn't you tell me that you

00:20:33.140 had a baby shower? And there's none of that sort of ticker tape background going on because I can

00:20:38.960 just genuinely recognize, Oh yeah, we weren't real friends. I wouldn't come to your baby shower

00:20:43.120 that we were. We're not actual friends. We were online friends. And so I can just be happy for

00:20:48.780 you and tell me everything. You know, I want to see, like, I want to see the baby and like,

00:20:52.680 this is going to be great. So I just found that community was built the way that maybe I needed

00:20:59.000 it to be. And now I would not identify with an introverted anymore. I think I was just an

00:21:06.300 overstimulated person. So I always tell people now, like, I'm better at answering my door than

00:21:12.400 my phone. So just come on in, open door policy. Like you don't get a heads up. Yes. I want people

00:21:16.960 to come to my house is the thing all the time all the time my door is like often unlocked during

00:21:21.860 daytime hours because we're always here um and I just want people to come over yeah yeah so that's

00:21:28.540 what that's what I did I just started um really kind of kind of like unpeeling those roots you

00:21:35.480 know from the online world and planting them in in the in my just local community um and I found

00:21:43.360 that because I wasn't constantly in a state of like, I can control my experience, which is what

00:21:50.980 we can do online. Um, that when we, when we live that way for so long, when we can just sort of

00:21:57.620 like swipe to get something better or swipe to be stimulated by something that we're actually

00:22:03.000 interested in, um, we're sort of trained to curate our experience. And then when things are boring,

00:22:08.380 like if somebody does come over and you think they're kind of boring or like, you don't really,

00:22:11.820 they don't have anything like fascinating to say that you can't find on tiktok it's hard to sit

00:22:16.360 through that conversation because you're like i could be doing this when you don't have that

00:22:20.620 you find the fascination in the people around you again you you dig a little deeper and you ask like

00:22:27.820 okay you just said this but i don't really buy that what's actually happening and people can

00:22:32.360 tell you because it's not being filmed and it's not online and it's not it's it removes so many

00:22:36.700 barriers on your end on their end it's just a lovely way to live and it's um it's been great

00:22:43.380 oh you sound so joyous I love this I really do um do you mind telling me how old your kids are now

00:22:50.440 yeah they're just 12 8 and 4 so they're 12 8 and 4 okay yeah yeah and how do they feel about this

00:22:56.960 how what has it been like for them and what is it like with their peer groups we have always said

00:23:02.680 we will do we will be the low tech the low tech hangout so like bring your friends anytime doesn't

00:23:08.220 matter you guys want s'mores cool like um like what whatever you guys need to help facilitate

00:23:14.740 this community because we recognize this is a big ask like we recognize you find your friends in this

00:23:21.000 way we recognize that even if they're not online or you're not online it is so internet culture so

00:23:27.940 ingrained you know everybody's still talking about mr beast even if they haven't seen mr beast or

00:23:32.400 whatever, whatever the YouTube guy is. And so we, we really pull, we, we really rally around them

00:23:39.800 and say like, whatever you guys need to help us support. And also, um, I, you know, my oldest

00:23:45.660 daughter, she, her friends all have phones and she came home one day and, um, just said, you know,

00:23:51.260 I, I don't actually, I know I don't want a phone. I know I don't, but I want a friend and it feels

00:23:56.820 like that's the only way I could get them anymore and I was like I totally hear you I am so sorry

00:24:03.340 that is not fair and um I'm a I'm a firm believer in families advocating together and making this

00:24:10.220 sort of a shared cause um and so we have so many friends that have kind of I mean we try not to be

00:24:19.940 like the preachy folks it's like this is what it's doing to your brains um and yet people will

00:24:24.640 ask inevitably they would ask like your family's a little different you guys are a little odd what's

00:24:28.480 happening over there and so we'll tell him like literally the only thing we don't do is is tech

00:24:33.160 well like we everything else it's pretty fair game we're flexible and um and so this though was

00:24:40.820 I mean my husband worked it at Apple's ad agency so he knows how the sausage is made we both are

00:24:45.340 very familiar and it just wasn't a road we were we just weren't willing to play which is a big

00:24:49.760 reason I wrote the book like where's the book for the people that aren't willing to play with this

00:24:54.200 Like where's the book that for the people that are just, we know, we know sort of the

00:24:59.440 justifications that we make for technology.

00:25:01.360 We certainly know all of the benefits and we weighed them and we decided this is not

00:25:06.720 worth it.

00:25:07.200 So how do we, how do we actually do it now?

00:25:09.640 We know why, how.

00:25:11.960 And so, yeah, our kids, I will say other people's kids now come to our house and say like,

00:25:20.060 oh, we just like how it feels here.

00:25:22.120 Like it just feels good.

00:25:23.500 it's like it's like um the 80s with amazon is how it feels you know it's just a different

00:25:29.820 um rhythm you know and um certainly this summer it's been fun to play around with the whole open

00:25:36.640 door policy and just uh come on over the only rule is like check your device at the door don't

00:25:41.380 bring it here and like and everybody knows and everybody knows it and they know yeah yeah and i

00:25:48.020 think that's the interesting thing um you know i talked to so many parents who are hopeless uh about

00:25:52.940 about you know checking out and controlling screen time and controlling devices and

00:25:57.880 i like to remind them and i'm not in this place yet right so like i i can't talk from experience

00:26:04.340 i have a seven-year-old and a four-year-old and an 18-month-old um when there's little things but

00:26:10.740 like they haven't asked for phones obviously but i think we do have to remember we're the adults in

00:26:15.380 the room and at no point in or at least you know a lot of people i knew in the 80s and 90s parents

00:26:22.620 weren't going to be like, fine, I'm going to buy you the cigarettes. Fine. I'm going to buy you

00:26:26.760 buy you all the all the St. Ides 40s. Like I, I just think these are as dangerous. And it's easier

00:26:34.420 sometimes maybe to look the other way. But we got we also get to set the rules, not just for our

00:26:39.080 kids, but for ourselves. We get to set those rules. We do. And approaching it from a place of

00:26:44.260 of agency, I don't like to rule it over their head with like, no, no, no, no, you can't do this,

00:26:51.080 which is why like, I do think that the book is very framed and like, here's everything we can

00:26:57.400 do instead. Here are all the, here is the rich wide world where it's beautiful and terrible all

00:27:03.360 at the same time. And, and let's introduce you to that world. And I will say one of our sort of

00:27:10.380 loose strategies is just be recognized. Our kids are going to be able to make their own decisions,

00:27:14.440 right? We can guide them toward what is nourishing for them. But we can't really,

00:27:19.720 control what they decide to do. But I think a really great buffer for a parent is let them

00:27:27.600 buy whatever phone they want to when they can pay for it themselves, both emotionally and

00:27:33.760 financially, right? So when they can handle the payment plans, when they've got a job and they

00:27:38.000 handle that whole thing. And some parents would argue, well, my child needs a phone to have the

00:27:43.360 job. And so I called really every employer that I know, every business business owner I know. And I

00:27:49.940 said, is that true? Does that hold water? What would you do if an employee said, hey, I can't

00:27:56.900 sign on with your time tracking app because I don't carry a smartphone. And I do have a desktop

00:28:03.460 computer at home. I have an email address. Can you accommodate an opt-out kid? And oh my gosh,

00:28:09.680 Joe overwhelmingly the response was like I would hire that kid in a minute because I know

00:28:14.040 a kid wouldn't be distracted I wouldn't have to tell him to get his phone off on the floor or

00:28:17.840 whatever like I want that kid show me that kid and I will hire that kid but it's hard to find

00:28:23.700 that kid and I think the tides are changing and we're recognizing it's okay to be different it's

00:28:28.780 okay to stand out it's um it's there are many more benefits there's a scholarship now for kids that

00:28:35.100 don't have smartphones to go to college because they recognize we want those kids. So I think

00:28:40.680 we're flopping in a, in a different direction. The kids that I spoke with, the teenagers I spoke

00:28:45.940 with, um, young adults I spoke with, they were like, we don't want our phone either. We, we don't

00:28:52.000 want this world. We just, I mean, the narrative is they're so addicted and they're so, you know,

00:28:57.120 um, they don't, they don't know the difference between real life and, and online world. Yeah,

00:29:01.340 they do, but this is what we gave them. So let's change it with them and for them. That's what I

00:29:07.220 want to do. I mean, yes, yes, yes. And yes. Okay. We're going to take one more quick break. And

00:29:15.500 when, when we get back, I want to talk about the myriad other things that you can do in your house

00:29:21.940 to create joy and to keep people entertained and feeling creative that have nothing to do

00:29:27.780 with technology i didn't like what you said odin pauses about the future this is the love story of

00:29:39.880 real hinge couple odin and edward written and read by me curtis garner listen to the free audiobook

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00:29:56.060 disappear. It just grew up. With no minimums, no monthly fees, and 100 free trades, TD Easy Trade

00:30:02.160 taps into that instinct. Because you are made to trade, and TD Easy Trade is made to help.

00:30:13.060 Okay, we are back. And you talked a little in the beginning about how you know too much about how

00:30:20.260 the sausage is made. You know what these technologies are doing to keep us addicted to

00:30:25.420 our phones to really, I mean, burn out our brains in a highly specific way. What are some of those

00:30:32.640 things and how can we replicate them to keep people engaged in real life? Yes. So I wanted

00:30:39.800 to know, you know, from a Minecraft designer, like, okay, how do you introduce challenge

00:30:45.520 without demotivating the kid? You know, I wanted to know from an influencer, how do you earn trust

00:30:50.320 an influence in your home. I wanted to know from TikTok, how do you create that party feel that

00:30:56.400 just every kid talks about? It's a party always going on. I'm always invited. And I recognize

00:31:02.540 all of these things parents can do even better because we have the gift of presence in our

00:31:09.160 home. We have our kids in front of us. We know our kids better than any data mining experiment

00:31:13.940 that Silicon Valley can ever, ever try to perform on our children. And so we have the upper hand.

00:31:20.900 That's the message I want to give the parents. We have all of the tools we need to beat them

00:31:24.980 at their own game. It is very possible. One thing I know as an influencer, the photos that always

00:31:31.600 perform best, right, like were the sensory photos, the ones that had sort of the fire crackling in

00:31:38.100 the background with your books and the beach scene and the wind blowing in your hair right

00:31:43.740 those are just waldorf elements those that's just it's literally fire water earth and earth and

00:31:50.120 soil no earth and air and um those things naturally engage the senses of a child whose brain and

00:31:59.240 neurons are still growing they seek that out it is it is the same reason that a baby and a toddler

00:32:06.160 are like just absolutely over the moon, delighted by a, by blowing bubbles, you know, or, you know,

00:32:13.680 watching a kite go back and forth. And so really, I mean, it sounds very simple, but bringing back

00:32:20.140 those sensory elements, you know, having candles lit when they come in from school is a very like

00:32:26.460 calming grounding thing to have far better than the iPad. Right. Have, you know, if you, if your

00:32:34.240 kids are young, having a water table out. Um, if your kids are older, like, um, I know a mom that

00:32:41.100 draws her daughter a bubble bath every evening. And I thought that was the sweetest thing in the

00:32:45.000 world. I don't have a bathtub, but if I did, I would want to, um, bringing in those sensory

00:32:50.080 elements. Like there's a reason that those perform well on the gram. Right. Um, and, and then even

00:32:56.980 when i talk to um to to tiktok okay so do you know about biometrics i i know a little bit about

00:33:04.940 my biometrics but you can fill me in as much as you want okay i i oh gosh it's a it's a whole part

00:33:11.800 too but the gist is the capacity and the technology is built in there to read to read your body

00:33:18.640 language to read your eye um sort of eye tracking your eyes sort of figuring out what delights you

00:33:23.800 what engages you, like, what do you want to see more of so we can serve you more of that content?

00:33:29.160 And so when I think of that in terms of parenting, it's like, just give them your eyes. Our kids have

00:33:35.140 so many tells, right? We don't need TikTok to tell us what is engaging or delightful to them.

00:33:40.080 But what TikTok does really well is it takes that information from that eye contact, which

00:33:45.720 is just rule number one. Like if my only challenge to parents is whenever your kid comes in the room,

00:33:51.120 try to look up try to look up and smile them try to greet them they're seeking that eye contact

00:33:56.780 and honestly joe they don't get it from their friends anymore right their friends are are they

00:34:00.640 see their forehead sometimes and and that's it so um give them their eye give them their eyes

00:34:05.580 and then what tiktok does really well after that is what i call strewing it's like a it's an early

00:34:12.580 childhood development thing but you just you're just sort of scattering delightful things in the

00:34:19.200 in the home environment that are going to draw their attention um and it can be free it's i'm

00:34:26.200 not talking set up the sensory station don't ever do that unless you want to vacuum for the rest of

00:34:29.720 your life but i'm talking like um like okay bring out an old guitar or bring out your old like cd

00:34:36.900 collection and let them like go wild and make fun of what you used to listen to or like um bring out

00:34:43.000 your like just put your old yearbook on the kitchen counter and see what happens with your

00:34:46.880 routines, right? They are going to be so, they're going to love making fun of you and your glasses

00:34:54.980 for one, but also just letting objects in your house speak to them. And there's something that

00:35:02.020 happens in a kid's brain when they're stumbling on it themselves. It's not like a performance.

00:35:06.800 It's not like, let's bake muffins together. Just put the muffin ingredients in the counter and see

00:35:11.000 what happens. Just start the thing. That's what TikTok is so good at. They're not, hey, we're all

00:35:15.820 going to the park let's put on our shoes if you're putting on your shoes and they're asking you what

00:35:22.960 are you doing i want to be part of that and you're like cool i'm just going to the park and then they

00:35:27.160 want to come with you it's um park yeah it's it's just removing all of those starting cues that i

00:35:33.060 think parents have been taught like to we have to be their cruise director we have to be all in we

00:35:37.640 have to be entertaining we have to get we have to get the bundle of sensory toys and um we don't

00:35:42.980 need any of that we just need to recognize that um our kids want to join something that's already

00:35:49.440 happening around them they want to belong to something that they're invited to so let them

00:35:55.060 belong in a way that um it doesn't feel forceful in a way that offers them the gift of a new

00:36:02.200 experience that's totally um it's it's going to be a memory that they haven't watched other people

00:36:07.340 live it's going to be their own memory that they get to experience themselves yeah i like what you

00:36:12.140 say, be more engaging than the algorithm, which I, you know, it just, that really resonates with me,

00:36:22.240 right? Because of course we can be more, it feels like a challenge, which I enjoy. I'm like, I like,

00:36:28.300 I like a challenge. I'm like, algorithm, I see you and I'm going to kick your ass. 1.00

00:36:32.640 but i i don't think it's that hard necessarily um because kids as you said they want to engage with 0.99

00:36:42.720 you i mean charlie yesterday for hours was like will you play marco polo with me and i did say

00:36:48.660 no because i hate marco polo and it is not something i want to do but again they just

00:36:53.220 want you to play with them they just want you to engage with them but i also think we can choose

00:36:58.920 that on our terms because I talk to a lot of mothers and they're like oh I'm not a play mother

00:37:02.720 I don't want to sit on the ground and play dolls and my parents never did that so why why do I have

00:37:08.000 to do that again agency we get to choose what we want to do I like board games I'll play board

00:37:12.340 games all day I don't want to play imaginary play with dolls I don't really like drawing either but

00:37:17.240 my mom does so they can draw with my dog with my mom with my dog um I'm like they we get to choose

00:37:23.780 we have choices I love that you brought that up because I never ever ever want a parent to like

00:37:28.900 Like, yes, that they have to do all of these things all at once.

00:37:31.320 Pick the thing that you like to do.

00:37:33.120 And then when you're shifting, like mine is reading.

00:37:35.600 So what I do is I go to the library, I get, gosh, 20 books or whatever.

00:37:39.060 And then I save them.

00:37:40.580 I put them in my closet for when I really actually need them.

00:37:42.840 And then I will just bring them out and I'll sit on the floor and I'll start reading.

00:37:45.880 And a kid will come up inevitably and want to know if they're picture books or whatever.

00:37:48.920 Or I'll sometimes just put a picture book in every room and let them just stumble upon it and be delighted all on their own.

00:37:56.340 But it's that kind of, and I will read aloud to them for hours, but I have never once played Barbies or really played. I'm not a play mom either. And so board games, same. I love a good board game. So I think, yes, if we can just do it on our own terms, invite them to belong on our own terms, then when we do decide to change it up, because surprise is another really great element online, right?

00:38:20.780 Like, we're delighted by the what's new, what's around the corner.

00:38:25.360 Every now and then surprise them by inviting them to do Marco Polo or whatever they want

00:38:29.880 to do, right?

00:38:30.540 Like, every now, keep that in your back pocket for when you know they love it, but it's not

00:38:35.800 something that has to be part of your everyday rhythm if you just truly don't have the mental

00:38:38.900 load or the bandwidth to do it.

00:38:40.280 They see that, too.

00:38:41.320 They don't want to play with somebody that doesn't want to play with them.

00:38:43.220 So, like, do what you want to do and make it fun.

00:38:46.860 I really don't want to play Marco Polo.

00:38:48.620 I just don't.

00:38:50.000 I just don't.

00:38:50.780 don't. This has been so eye-opening. I want to have you on again, but you're about to check back

00:38:56.680 off of the technology. What does your summer look like? We're going off-grid. And yeah,

00:39:03.000 I should say, I'll check my email. I will probably, yeah, a couple of times.

00:39:09.900 We're going off-grid. We're going to the mountains. We're working on building some

00:39:16.020 solar energy and whatever there. I mean, my husband's a hippie. I'm not necessarily. I will

00:39:20.440 be very on grid in terms of um dishwasher and that kind of thing right right right yeah um

00:39:26.960 that's my goal but um yeah i'm just gonna check out and and when i say checking out of internet

00:39:34.960 culture i don't mean that yeah i do i feel responsible to my publisher to be able to say

00:39:39.740 yeah i'll be responsive if you email me and you need something yeah um but if they're like oprah

00:39:45.520 wants to talk to you tomorrow you'll go find a way to talk to oprah oh i would i who yeah who

00:39:50.740 wouldn't um everyone's going to we're not crazy people they're not everyone's going to um but

00:39:57.260 checking out of internet culture is it's just you know i'm just i'm not gonna be you know babysitting

00:40:03.040 the book reading the reviews looking around at what you know people which i think is a healthy

00:40:07.540 thing for any writer but also just um i'm just here it is and and i hope that it's helpful

00:40:15.160 and, um, it's going to do what it needs to do anyway. I do have just a big faith and trust in

00:40:21.960 the system as a whole of it that, um, I'm grassroots is not dead. I think passing books on to friends,

00:40:28.860 getting them at the library. I just, um, requested your Sicilian book at the library. I'm number four

00:40:34.380 in the queue. I feel like that's worth telling you. That is worth telling me. Yes. And remind

00:40:39.480 me where you are. I'm in Indiana right now. Okay, great. Good, good. So good Midwestern

00:40:44.580 marketing joe so i just um yeah i think i i'm a firm believer in that and i think if that means

00:40:51.620 that the book sells slowly or um or doesn't you know if it fizzles out i know that it um

00:40:58.340 i i wrote it and i think it'll be helpful and um that's what matters right we're writers we're not

00:41:05.320 writers and marketers and publishers and publicists and pr reps we can be if we like that

00:41:11.640 part if we enjoy that part um but i don't think um i think publishers are recognizing this too i

00:41:17.960 think they're recognizing the burnout and it makes a lesser product for the consumer and the creator

00:41:22.660 when they're burned out trying to talk about it instead of write it so um yeah it's it's possible

00:41:29.440 to do i hope you'll have to come join me on the mountain when you're done with your tour

00:41:33.600 i will i will i will where where what state are you are you mountaining in

00:41:38.080 in montana okay oh actually yes yes yes yes we have a project that we're supposed to go work on

00:41:44.480 in montana at some point this year and um we plan on mountaining in august i'm trying to take off

00:41:50.740 for i was trying to take off for all of august um and then one of my books has been optioned for tv

00:41:57.580 and it's been going on for three years because it takes forever and nothing ever happens right

00:42:01.400 like i don't believe anything will ever be turned into a tv show but um all of the pitches to the

00:42:07.140 streaming networks got pushed from july to august okay why um one of one of the actresses attached

00:42:16.420 is shooting a pilot and so everything everything moved everything moved i there is one person that

00:42:22.140 i feel the worst for in the world and it is the um assist production assistant who organizes

00:42:27.900 everyone's schedules i just i i open her emails and i'm like are you okay are you i oh oh god

00:42:35.260 Yeah. Because I want to die every time I have to look at these dates and times. And also they're always in L.A. time. And I'm like, oh, God. So it's always at eight o'clock at night. So I will not be fully checking out in August. But it was my goal. So we'll see. We'll see how how how little I can do. And oh, and then also I'm doing a big in conversation with Jodi Bacow, which much like Oprah, you're not going to say no to Jodi Bacow. So I'm like, yes, of course, Jodi, I'll be there. I'll be there. So I'll I'll be doing the socials for that.

00:43:04.040 but a mini checkout well I do want to say too I don't believe that it's all or nothing I think

00:43:13.380 that we get to again we get to choose we get to have the agency we can choose what works for us

00:43:19.000 at any given time like read the book read the book listen to the suggestions see what parts

00:43:24.320 of this can work for your family you don't have to fully opt out if you're not ready right now

00:43:29.520 But even the littlest steps can be such a positive change.

00:43:34.200 Yes. Thank you for saying that. I do. I forget that you have to offer a spectrum. And it's true.

00:43:39.840 And it is a very possible spectrum for everybody. And so, yeah, there are many people that are like,

00:43:46.220 no, I'm not going to do. I feel really firmly about this. And honestly, I always tell people

00:43:51.840 there are no wrong answers at all, except to not question it. So whatever you find that works,

00:43:59.220 As long as you're just kind of, you know, recognize, as long as you're defining what

00:44:03.700 your goals are and recognizing that those goals are going to be in direct opposition

00:44:08.380 to Silicon Valley's goals, you're good.

00:44:10.740 Then get on your track and then recognize all of the ways in which maybe society asks

00:44:17.700 you to compromise and decide if the trade-off is worth it.

00:44:20.840 It's going to be for some people.

00:44:22.820 And that's cool.

00:44:23.800 That's fine.

00:44:25.520 So yeah, I love that you said that.

00:44:26.760 Thank you for just offering grace.

00:44:29.380 I don't ever want anybody to feel like this is an unattainable thing.

00:44:35.840 It's just questioning.

00:44:37.460 We're just really questioning, like, do we need this?

00:44:40.240 Can we make a better future?

00:44:41.740 I think we can.

00:44:42.480 I think if we all work together, we can really make a big difference in these kids' lives.

00:44:47.960 Yeah, I agree.

00:44:49.040 I agree.

00:44:49.400 Now, you're not on the social media, but your website offers so many useful things, even email scripts for how to talk to people about being an opt-out family, all of the things that you can do to create a more engaging home, screen-free.

00:45:07.780 Tell people where they can find you.

00:45:10.540 So that's at optoutfamily.com.

00:45:13.340 And thank you.

00:45:14.700 yeah, honestly, if there's a resource on there that isn't on there, I want to know. So just

00:45:20.320 email me and I'll check it. At some point. I will. But that's my goal. I want to just make

00:45:26.620 sure people have all the resources they need. You know, speaking of email, my friend Casey

00:45:31.620 gave me this analogy the other day. We were up in New York for my other friend Glynis's book launch,

00:45:38.280 which I've talked about a lot on this podcast, mostly because, I mean, as you said, so much of

00:45:43.640 launching a book happens on social media it's like i'll send you my book and then you send me

00:45:47.320 your book and we'll both hold up the books um and i'm like no my best friend is launching a book and

00:45:52.340 i'm gonna book doula her into the world and i will be there on monday at the party i will be there

00:45:57.920 we will have lunch on tuesday and we will go to the party at the bookstore and then we will

00:46:02.220 go out afterwards i'm like i will physically be here for you in person my friend um and our other

00:46:07.960 friend casey came with and we were talking about this we were talking about you know being distracted

00:46:11.500 and burnt out. And she was like, yeah, there's this analogy that's really great. Like, imagine

00:46:17.200 if every time the mailman had a letter for you, you stood up and went to the door and opened the

00:46:23.380 door and were completely taken out of the thing that you do. Like, literally every time the

00:46:28.100 mailman had a letter. So think about that every time you get an email that he's just like,

00:46:31.800 ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. He's like, and that is what

00:46:34.540 is happening now. She's like, we were never meant to be getting information at this rate of

00:46:40.520 information. And I've been thinking about it so much. I was thinking about it on the subway because

00:46:44.620 I was looking at my email, looking at my email, looking at my email and I'm like, it's the mailman

00:46:47.720 and he's just going ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. So yeah, there's just, we have to be

00:46:52.780 talking about it more. There's other ways of looking at it. We do. We do. And I applaud

00:46:58.060 anybody that can handle that and still write the book that they're booking, right? That's the

00:47:02.680 amazing thing. If you can do like the deep work and be in focus and then pull yourself out of it

00:47:08.300 to be able to be in response mode i mean that's that's some multitasking max so um well done on

00:47:16.120 you and congrats to you i love too that you were your friend spoke doula and you decided to support

00:47:21.080 her in real life i bet that that is going to be a profound memory for her she's going to feel

00:47:24.840 um celebrated and in a way that social media can never offer you know no no it won't we have to

00:47:32.260 show up that's the other thing we just have to we have to remember to continue to show up for people

00:47:37.800 You do that very well.

00:47:39.380 I know just from talking to you, just your, yeah.

00:47:41.620 Thank you.

00:47:42.480 Thank you.

00:47:43.160 Thank you.

00:47:43.680 Thank you.

00:47:43.980 Thank you for everything.

00:47:44.940 I loved talking to you.

00:47:46.160 This was a wonderful way to start my morning and I haven't even had coffee yet.

00:47:49.540 Ah, that's amazing.

00:47:51.000 I know. 0.99

00:47:51.280 I'm going to go have like nine fucking cups now. 0.99

00:47:54.120 I like you so much. 0.99

00:47:56.440 All right.

00:47:57.320 We will talk in real life one of these days.

00:47:59.740 I love that.

00:48:00.380 Come to the mountain.

00:48:01.300 I will.

00:48:01.820 Done.

00:48:02.740 Done.

00:48:03.060 Thank you.

00:48:03.820 Thank you.

00:48:04.360 and that is all we have for today and now I am on a mission to make my entire house much more

00:48:11.040 interesting than the algorithm because I love a competition I sure do it's gonna be amazing

00:48:17.920 amazing I'm gonna rock this if you love this show share it with all your friends leave us a review

00:48:24.720 in all the review places if you want to know more about Erin and how she's done this wild thing

00:48:29.020 definitely order a copy of the opt out family it's in all the book places just like the

00:48:34.460 sicilian inheritance the book of the summer now go out make your house a fun zone and then do

00:48:39.380 something nice for yourself you freaking deserve it

00:48:59.020 Thank you.

00:49:29.020 saying how you feel out loud is terrifying but that's what hinge's new free audiobook

00:49:36.040 no ordinary love is all about it's a collection of real love stories about five couples that met

00:49:44.100 on hinge the stories are written and read by temby dinton hurst nicola dinan curtis garner

00:49:49.580 raven smith and rufy thorpe i hunter harris wrote and read the forward the audiobook's out now give

00:49:56.840 Have a listen.

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - June 18, 2024

Could Your Family Opt out of Technology？ This One Did! Here's How.

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