Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - June 16, 2024


Sunday Nice Things： We Are the Great Turning

Topics
climate change activism
Who is Nara Smith and is she a #TradWife？ Could Your Family Opt out of Technology？ This One Did! Here's How.

Episode Stats


Length

34 minutes

Words per minute

124.32

Word count

4,244

Sentence count

279

Harmful content

Hate speech

1

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
00:00:00.000 I didn't like what you said, Odin pauses, about the future.
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00:00:40.080 Hello, everyone. Happy, happy, happy Sunday. I believe it's Father's Day that we're dropping
00:00:47.440 this episode. And, you know, I hope that we're celebrating all of the wonderful things that
00:00:53.600 fathers can and should do, such as children's doctor's appointments and haircuts and laundry
00:01:02.400 and dishes, and sure, also maybe throwing a football or two. If that is something everyone
00:01:11.640 enjoys doing, which you know what? Not everyone does. They don't. They don't. But today we are
00:01:18.240 not talking about Father's Day. Today, I'm very excited to drop something new in your feed,
00:01:25.160 a podcast I really think that you're going to enjoy. It's called We Are the Great Turning.
00:01:31.940 I don't know about you, but I often get very overwhelmed when I think about climate change.
00:01:39.140 I, you know, I'm constantly, constantly fretting if I'm doing enough, and then I am very overwhelmed
00:01:47.980 with the sorting of all of the clothes to give away
00:01:51.780 because I don't want to just throw things away
00:01:54.280 and I do want to sort all of the clothes that we inherit
00:01:57.720 and then the recycling and the composting
00:02:00.840 and I'm married to a man who works in sustainability
00:02:04.560 so this is constantly at the forefront of my mind
00:02:09.040 but I think it's at the forefront of a lot of our minds
00:02:11.700 just as people who care about leaving the planet better
00:02:16.540 than it is when we're here, honestly.
00:02:21.180 This is one of the few podcasts that has been bringing me hope again.
00:02:27.300 We Are the Great Turning is a 10-episode series
00:02:30.100 about living through the climate crisis with our hearts intact.
00:02:34.920 And the show truly shines a light on 95-year-old legendary eco-spiritual teacher
00:02:42.500 Joanna Macy in an intimate, heartfelt dialogue with her friend, the activist Jess Cerrante.
00:02:51.460 Together, these two are exploring what it takes to stay resilient, joyful, and motivated while
00:02:58.140 confronting all of the things we just talked about, while confronting this climate crisis
00:03:03.940 and this climate burnout and this lack of hope that I think a lot of us feel on many days.
00:03:10.020 here is just one episode i think you're really gonna like it it's just a taste just a taste of
00:03:16.300 it and if you enjoy it please listen at we are the great turning dot com or wherever you get
00:03:22.880 your podcasts all the places enjoy friends all right our recorders are on for the first time
00:03:36.500 Yes, this is what we're called to do right now, I guess.
00:03:43.180 Talk about situations of extreme alarm and ignorance.
00:03:50.640 We're in a situation that humanity's never been in before.
00:03:55.540 You know, there have been wars, plagues, huge migrations.
00:04:01.940 But this concerns everyone on Earth.
00:04:09.320 And this is not something we know how to even begin to think about.
00:04:17.840 You're listening to We Are the Great Turning.
00:04:21.540 This podcast is a series of conversations between me, Jess Sorante, and my 95-year-old friend, Joanna Macy,
00:04:29.960 about this moment in history we're living through.
00:04:33.300 Or as Joanna says,
00:04:35.560 Standing afresh with what's it like to live on Earth at this moment.
00:04:43.300 And I want to be upfront about something.
00:04:46.240 This podcast is about loving a world engulfed in crisis and separation.
00:04:51.140 It's about reclaiming a sense of possibility
00:04:53.720 and our interconnection with one another and the Earth.
00:04:57.240 But this is not a podcast about hope. Not exactly. In these episodes, I want to invite you into a
00:05:05.440 deep sense of your belonging and love for our world, into connection with the great possibilities
00:05:11.400 that still exist for us, even in these precarious times, and into action. This is what Joanna has
00:05:19.360 done for me. As you listen to this series, I hope that you'll slow down and imagine yourself sitting
00:05:25.900 at Joanna's dining room table with us,
00:05:28.280 drinking tea and talking.
00:05:30.840 Because as we had these conversations,
00:05:33.180 we were imagining you there with us.
00:05:35.960 Because you're here too.
00:05:37.660 You're facing just what we're facing.
00:05:40.580 So even though I can't see your face,
00:05:44.020 I'm very moved to think of how much we have in common.
00:05:48.740 I may never hear your name or see your face,
00:05:53.300 But you've suddenly become real because you're on the planet with me at this time.
00:06:00.660 So I'm glad you're here, and I hope you'll stick around.
00:06:04.820 In this series, we'll be talking about many of the hardest feelings that emerge for us as we look into the face of the climate crisis.
00:06:12.060 We'll also be sharing ideas and practices that can help make these times more bearable.
00:06:17.960 It's important to note, though, that there are times when seeking professional help is essential, even life-saving.
00:06:24.480 So if you're dealing with emotional pain that's too much, whether it's solely climate-related or not, I hope you'll seek out mental health support.
00:06:33.420 You can go to our show's website, wearethegreatturning.com, for some resources that may help.
00:06:38.780 in this first episode love and loss and what someone living in the last chapter of their
00:06:48.060 life can teach us about facing the climate crisis i want to reach and take hold of that
00:06:55.300 life wire of reality i want to be here i want to be if i i can't avoid climate change then i want
00:07:03.960 to be here with all my attention, with all my trust in life. That's Joanna. She's a scholar
00:07:15.480 of Buddhism and systems thinking, and she's known around the world as a beloved voice in peace,
00:07:21.140 justice, and ecology movements. The Dalai Lama is a big fan of hers, and so was Thich Nhat Hanh.
00:07:27.600 Her ideas and teachings have been adopted by scholars and organizers and movements around
00:07:32.860 the world, from the global climate movement to the youth-led resistance in Myanmar to the Iranian
00:07:38.560 women's movement. Anywhere that people are seeking a kind of spiritual strength as they struggle
00:07:44.460 together for justice, it's possible that you'll find Joanna's work. And me? I'm Jess. Back in the
00:07:52.460 spring of 2014, I was 25 years old and having a kind of existential crisis. At that point, I'd been
00:07:59.320 all in as a climate and environmental organizer for seven years. I was heartbroken at how bad
00:08:05.920 the state of the climate crisis had grown and frustrated at how little difference my actions
00:08:10.960 seemed to make. At the time, I was working on a campaign targeting snack food companies about the
00:08:16.780 palm oil in their supply chains. And I remember saying to a friend at a bar one night, can my life
00:08:22.660 really be about a better PepsiCo? So I took a leave of absence from my organizing job and around
00:08:29.300 that time, I met Joanna, and my life changed forever. We met when I chased her down in the
00:08:37.820 hallway at a conference in Berkeley. That conversation led to me attending a retreat
00:08:42.780 that she was leading that summer in the Redwoods in Northern California. And that retreat was a
00:08:48.400 deep dive into a practice that Joanna is the root teacher, the originator of. It's called
00:08:54.760 The Work That Reconnects. Joanna now lives in Berkeley, California, and she's lived a really
00:09:03.600 extraordinary life. She grew up in New York City in the 30s, began studying Tibetan Buddhism while
00:09:10.260 living in India in the 60s with her husband Fran, who worked for the Peace Corps. And in the 70s,
00:09:16.020 she became an anti-nuclear activist. When she was a married mom of three in her early 50s,
00:09:22.380 She went back to school to get a Ph.D. studying Buddhism and systems theory.
00:09:26.620 And it was then that she faced an existential crisis kind of like mine.
00:09:31.240 Almost 50 years ago, a moment that was for me almost cataclysmic
00:09:37.000 occurred at a day-long symposium of the Cousteau Society.
00:09:45.100 That's Jacques Cousteau, of course,
00:09:46.800 the scientist and adventurer best known for exploring and protecting the oceans.
00:09:52.380 It held a full day on three floors of a great coliseum in Boston
00:09:58.500 on the environmental problems assailing us.
00:10:02.880 Not just the oceans, as Cousteau is connected with,
00:10:07.500 but it was the oil spills, the acid rain, the poisoning of the lakes.
00:10:14.200 There was factory farming.
00:10:16.180 It was just a whole jamboree of all these issues.
00:10:22.380 all of it seemed to be growing
00:10:25.600 in a kind of salt on the human body
00:10:30.360 and on other species too
00:10:33.300 this was back then
00:10:35.680 it was in 77, yeah, 50 years ago
00:10:40.860 I want to date with Rawls, Carty says
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00:11:48.000 So 1977 was 11 years before the U.N. would officially acknowledge the existence of anthropogenic climate change, and 15 years before the first U.N. climate conference in Rio.
00:12:01.060 But Joanna suddenly and clearly understood that something was very wrong in humanity's relationship to Earth.
00:12:07.520 There was no aspect of the natural world that seemed free of being undercut and losing its capacity even for vitality.
00:12:22.440 We were destroying our world.
00:12:24.500 We are destroying our world with every aspect of the power that we've accrued in corporate capitalism.
00:12:32.280 And it brought a tremendous internal avalanche of grief.
00:12:38.480 It was so arresting to me.
00:12:41.800 It was so huge a realization that I couldn't speak it.
00:12:46.180 At first, she bottled up these feelings and kept them to herself.
00:12:50.720 And it silenced me.
00:12:54.100 It silenced me for 15 months.
00:12:57.520 I couldn't speak of it to my friends, my family, my husband, my fellow academics in the department.
00:13:11.800 I couldn't bear being cheered up because it was the assault on my psyche was that we were destroying our world.
00:13:23.220 I asked Joanna why being cheered up was so unbearable to her.
00:13:27.520 If they understood me, even a tiny bit,
00:13:30.780 they'd know that this was not cheer-uppable.
00:13:35.380 It's sort of like talking to somebody whose father
00:13:38.580 will face the firing line the next morning.
00:13:43.360 And you say, well, you know, got to look on the bright side.
00:13:48.780 What's the bright side?
00:13:50.900 If you try to cheer me up, that means you didn't get it.
00:13:55.300 It only makes it worse.
00:13:57.520 It only makes you feel more isolated.
00:14:02.360 This was a big deal for me to hear her say this.
00:14:06.100 Over my years of climate activism, I have at times felt desperate to be cheered up.
00:14:13.460 I've also tried to pull my loved ones out of their pain from time to time.
00:14:18.620 But what I'm coming to understand now is that cheering each other up is just another way of feeding denial.
00:14:25.020 And denial only makes our circumstances worse.
00:14:28.940 Because you know that if you really sense what's happening
00:14:32.760 and you can't hear it from anybody else except yourself,
00:14:39.700 it makes you crazy.
00:14:43.200 And there's the loneliness of the unheard witness
00:14:49.900 of what's befalling our planet.
00:14:55.020 you've been holding it back
00:14:58.220 because you don't want others to know how bad it is.
00:15:03.860 You don't want others to know how great is the grief.
00:15:10.840 I didn't want my family to know how much pain I was in.
00:15:16.400 I didn't want them to know my own suffering
00:15:19.020 because it was enough to drive you mad
00:15:23.980 to think that we were heading over the brink as a species to bring this sense of anguish
00:15:35.540 and isolation to my beloved.
00:15:41.520 But underneath, Joanna knew that hiding her pain away did her no good.
00:15:46.380 She knew that she and other people who were feeling the same way needed a way to be with
00:15:51.680 the full truth of what's happening to the planet together
00:15:54.920 so that we could be listened to and understood
00:15:57.920 as opposed to carrying it silently and alone.
00:16:01.860 Having people understand it was the greatest joy in the world.
00:16:08.680 That means that it brings a mutual gratitude and respect.
00:16:17.480 To find a home is like you've been homeless.
00:16:21.680 for years and years, and suddenly you find a hole, a roof over your head.
00:16:28.880 She drew on her study of Buddhism and began offering writing and group workshops that allowed
00:16:34.380 her and her participants to share how they were feeling. And it snowballed from there.
00:16:40.280 From the Cold War to the Chernobyl disaster to the emerging climate crisis,
00:16:44.520 the urgency of the world intersected with Joanna's passion through her academic work,
00:16:50.320 global activism, and collaborations with her friends and husband Fran.
00:16:55.440 And the result? Despair and empowerment work, or what is now known as the work that reconnects.
00:17:03.200 The work that reconnects is one of the most powerful practices that I know of.
00:17:08.040 It's also incredibly hard to describe, partly because it's so experiential. We'll get into
00:17:14.220 all of this more in future episodes, and you can practice the work that reconnects yourself
00:17:19.220 by listening with friends and checking out our online toolkit.
00:17:22.900 I'll tell you more about these resources at the end of the episode.
00:17:30.840 For me, when I first experienced this work at that retreat in 2014, I came alive.
00:17:39.040 Like Dorothy and Oz, it all went from black and white to technicolor.
00:17:44.720 It's all there now.
00:17:46.440 Grief and fear, yes, but also beauty and awe and purpose.
00:17:55.120 When Joanna first started talking about this, there wasn't much of a public climate conversation.
00:18:00.540 But now, almost a half a century later, climate disasters are regular front-page news, and
00:18:07.080 climate anxiety is an epidemic.
00:18:12.220 My relationship with Joanna has given me an understanding of how to go on.
00:18:16.440 even amid change and loss.
00:18:19.460 And this is what I hope these conversations will give to you.
00:18:24.840 You think you'll come back as a crow?
00:18:27.000 Oh, I'd love to. I would love to.
00:18:30.620 Oh.
00:18:32.040 This is from one of the last conversations that we had in this series.
00:18:35.880 And it's pretty emotional because Joanna and I are confronting the fact that
00:18:40.140 we don't know how much time we have left to spend together.
00:18:43.500 I like thinking with you, and I know that it's not over, but it's like in order for us to move the project towards completion, I have to go do some thinking on my own and go through the material and then come back.
00:18:56.900 Because you are creating material that will be a lot of the people to whom it's introduced, I'll be gone.
00:19:10.020 Yeah.
00:19:10.500 And I think that's a part of what scares me, too, if I'm being totally honest.
00:19:16.600 Well, that's what I'm just sensing.
00:19:20.380 And so looking at this, I'm facing my gone-ness to come.
00:19:33.140 And I'm used to being me.
00:19:36.120 I like being me.
00:19:38.480 and that being me will disappear under my feet
00:19:44.280 and I will disappear.
00:19:50.660 And what will be left,
00:19:53.440 the words, I don't want to say them,
00:19:56.860 but what will be left is my love.
00:20:01.020 That's what my love for the world feels like.
00:20:04.660 It's something that I have to give.
00:20:09.940 But how can it be given if I'm not here?
00:20:15.360 Well, I will be here in what we're making.
00:20:23.820 And what you have with incredible courage
00:20:29.680 stepped in to say,
00:20:33.000 I'll have this to be there when you're gone.
00:20:45.200 Thanks for singing it,
00:20:46.540 because I didn't have the guts to say it.
00:20:50.800 Yeah.
00:20:52.640 It's a work of incredible caring.
00:20:57.000 I love, I just,
00:20:58.640 So love your spunk, your strength to look right into my mortality, our mortality, the mortality of this moment, and say, all right, I'm up for this.
00:21:18.240 It makes sense to do this.
00:21:19.940 the work here
00:21:26.100 the next phase
00:21:27.200 is that in some ways
00:21:28.900 it feels like
00:21:29.840 moving
00:21:35.320 in a weird way
00:21:37.760 it feels like moving closer to losing you
00:21:39.960 yes
00:21:40.840 that's what I was just about to say
00:21:43.540 that you have to
00:21:46.080 and have the nerve
00:21:48.240 and the
00:21:49.560 devotion to life and to our work
00:21:53.940 to prepare this.
00:21:57.760 It's like preparing my shroud.
00:22:01.100 You're preparing for something that will be my gift
00:22:05.480 when I'm gone, and your gift.
00:22:11.400 But you know what?
00:22:13.760 When the emptiness comes
00:22:17.580 and you look to where I sit on this couch and I'm not here,
00:22:23.460 you'll know you've been with me gone already.
00:22:29.420 You've been with me with me gone.
00:22:31.280 Yeah.
00:22:35.240 Yeah, and so it's an act of love for me
00:22:41.980 and for those whom I've loved and who love me.
00:22:50.420 You're doing that.
00:22:53.180 And if you didn't cry, it wouldn't be worth...
00:22:58.700 It wouldn't be any good for doing this job.
00:23:03.980 I didn't like what you said, Odin pauses, about the future.
00:23:09.900 this is the love story of real hinge couple odin and edward
00:23:14.580 written and read by me curtis garner listen to the free audiobook now
00:23:19.880 sorry investing trading that isn't a personality you don't need the voice you don't need the jargon
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00:23:53.820 Hungry now.
00:23:57.060 Now.
00:23:59.220 What about now?
00:24:01.280 Whenever it hits you, wherever you are.
00:24:04.060 Grab an O'Henry bar to satisfy your hunger.
00:24:08.160 With its delicious combination of big, crunchy, salty peanuts covered in creamy caramel and chewy fudge with a chocolatey coating.
00:24:16.620 Swing by a gas station and get an O'Henry today.
00:24:19.520 O'Henry, O'Henry.
00:24:25.160 As Joanna talked about what it means for us to be making this podcast in this late stage of her life,
00:24:31.100 It reminded me of what she's been teaching me for years
00:24:33.960 about the daunting task of addressing the climate crisis.
00:24:38.140 And so it's an act of love.
00:24:41.240 And if you didn't cry, it wouldn't be any good for doing this job.
00:24:49.820 To love our world well in this time of great need, we need our pain.
00:24:56.460 Joanna often says that love and pain are two sides of the same coin.
00:25:00.540 we can't have one without the other we feel so much pain as we look at what's happening to our
00:25:07.880 world because of how much we love it so when we allow our hearts to break when we allow ourselves
00:25:15.300 to really feel our outrage fear grief rather than rushing to be cheered up or distracted
00:25:22.540 we can love our world with more generosity because touching our heartbreak and touching our love are
00:25:29.340 the same so this conversation is surrounded by loss loss of our of each
00:25:39.780 other and loss of the way we've lived on this planet and there's so much that
00:25:53.700 you're going to have to face that I won't, I suppose.
00:25:58.080 Yeah, and I feel only joy at you avoiding any suffering
00:26:07.360 that might come across all of us in the years to come.
00:26:11.820 Well, now I do feel sadder.
00:26:15.240 That's the grief for me.
00:26:17.060 What is?
00:26:17.580 that I won't be there with you to help
00:26:24.820 when it's really awful.
00:26:29.640 I breathe no sigh of relief that I'll be gone.
00:26:34.800 What comes up for me so strong now, as you're aware,
00:26:39.120 is that what's true for me is this
00:26:42.060 heartbreaking, open with love for what we're doing.
00:26:51.300 And there are many of us who are preparing themselves
00:26:55.320 and the rest of us to carry forward as humans on this planet
00:27:00.700 when it becomes so unfriendly to our life form,
00:27:05.140 to our fragility.
00:27:08.400 There'll be colder winters and hotter summers
00:27:11.860 then this kind of body can handle well.
00:27:20.900 And you know, it just occurs to me that we are feeling so guilty toward the future ones.
00:27:29.660 We must also realize that what we're doing, so much that we're doing out of compassion,
00:27:36.660 that we are putting ourselves in the heart, minds, and bodies of those
00:27:42.420 who are living toward the end of this very century.
00:27:46.640 What things will be like 80 years from now.
00:27:51.580 Or what things will be like in eight years from now.
00:27:58.340 In our hyper-individualist society, it can be easy to experience
00:28:02.760 what I've heard Joanna refer to as a cultural amnesia.
00:28:06.660 We forget how incredibly interconnected we are with each other, with our planet, with the long line of ancestors who we come from, and with the future ones.
00:28:19.680 And that's why Joanna calls for compassion.
00:28:23.160 She uses the Sanskrit word, karuna.
00:28:26.480 Let's hear it for karuna.
00:28:29.700 Let's hear it for the moral imagination
00:28:34.040 to link ourselves to those who come after us
00:28:37.800 when we won't be here.
00:28:41.180 Remembering our interconnection is a mental muscle.
00:28:44.440 We can practice and learn to get better
00:28:46.180 at shaking ourselves free from that amnesia.
00:28:49.380 It's all there in the name of Joanna's work,
00:28:52.460 the work that reconnects.
00:28:55.340 It's hard to think of anything more important
00:28:58.000 or more gratifying for us to be doing right now
00:29:01.160 while our planet is in such grave danger
00:29:03.680 than reconnecting to each other and our world.
00:29:08.360 To courageously face the crises around us,
00:29:11.520 we need each other.
00:29:14.560 You must speak. You can't speak.
00:29:19.340 You're listening to me.
00:29:21.400 I'm so grateful you can hear me.
00:29:23.120 And that was what I needed from the get-go.
00:29:28.000 And it's what you need, too.
00:29:31.420 Who can you talk to?
00:29:34.400 And who can you listen to?
00:29:40.400 So this is what I want to leave you with this episode.
00:29:43.400 An invitation to speak, listen, and share this podcast with people close to you.
00:29:49.600 An invitation into a kind of climate conversation that welcomes all of you.
00:29:55.480 Your fears, your uncertainty, your heartbreaks, your love, your dreams of a better future, and all the rest.
00:30:04.520 I hope you'll continue to join us at Joanna's Table as we dive in future episodes into more vulnerable and intimate conversations about living with our hearts intact amid this unfolding climate crisis.
00:30:17.100 We want to make it easy for you to bring the insights from each of our 10 episodes deeper into your life.
00:30:22.900 So we made a toolkit to help you form a podcast club
00:30:26.400 where you gather with others to discuss the episodes.
00:30:29.680 It has conversation prompts,
00:30:31.900 instructions for practicing the work that reconnects together,
00:30:34.760 related resources, and more.
00:30:36.960 You can find it at wearethegreatturning.com
00:30:39.840 and at the link in our show notes.
00:30:42.380 Next time, we'll talk about what we call
00:30:44.620 the three stories of our time.
00:30:47.580 There are three stories that we can choose from.
00:30:52.320 Because they are actually happening now in our world.
00:30:59.980 The big drama that we're in consists of these three stories
00:31:08.320 and how we respond to them, how we choose to recognize them.
00:31:13.160 So listen up.
00:31:14.540 I'm listening.
00:31:16.380 These are the three stories.
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00:31:55.360 This episode, we have a bonus for you. It's a guided exercise designed to help you practice
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00:32:12.480 greatturningatsoundstrue.com. You can find me on Instagram at Jess underscore Cerante,
00:32:19.280 S-E-R-R-A-N-T-E, and at jesscerante.com. This show is brought to you by the Sounds True
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00:32:32.860 Our show's editor is Anya Kamenetz. Our producer is Luz Fleming. Our editorial consultant is Anna
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00:33:09.500 Lucy Beauches, Jesse Marshall, Leilani Navarre, and Jim Colgan. I want to offer my deepest
00:33:16.300 gratitude to Joanna Macy for her profound friendship and extraordinary generosity and
00:33:22.820 wisdom. It has been the honor of my life to make this podcast with you. Something tells me I might
00:33:29.980 wind up with a crow tattoo now that i can carry you with me forever
00:33:39.780 yeah that's right right in the middle of your forehead
00:33:46.580 you matched on hinge you're vibing then her energy completely changes
00:33:59.940 What do you do? I'm Raven Smith and I wrote and read a real love story about this exact
00:34:05.600 sitch. Listen to the free audiobook now.