00:18:58.060yeah and uh you know there was an interesting comment i found in an old article about her
00:19:05.160where you know she would often say like i'm not as so after she dated brad pitt she decided she
00:19:10.240didn't want her relationships to be public anymore because she and brad were very public
00:19:14.120they were going on red carpets together they were at the golden globes together he wins an award
00:19:18.060and he goes up on the stage to accept it and he calls her his angel like it was very much out
00:19:23.200there in the public sphere, making them very, very famous. Right. So she decided after that
00:19:31.260relationship, she and Ben were not going to be seen together on a red carpet. They weren't going
00:19:35.100to talk about their relationship. That said, when she was on sets, like filming Shakespeare in Love,
00:19:39.560like everyone knew they were an item, like they were canoodling and people were walking in on
00:19:43.260that. They weren't really hiding it. But she said something, I believe it was around this time where
00:19:50.260she was like you know we're not it may have been when she was dating chris martin but she basically
00:19:54.360said you know we're not putting our relationship out there i'm not putting myself out there to be
00:19:58.220a tabloid person but i looked back at what she had done like in the few months around that comment
00:20:05.860and she had gone to like a magazine party a movie premiere like a charity event like she had been
00:20:10.520going all these things so i don't i think it's like a self-awareness there like i don't know that
00:20:16.980she was aware of the ways in which she was putting herself out there and obviously her
00:20:20.560self-awareness can at times be quite lacking which is why she's so polarizing it's true it's true and
00:20:26.260i mean it is hard for me to believe that she wasn't at least somewhat self-aware again i have
00:20:30.900no idea but the kinds of events that you're talking about are tabloid fodder i know that's
00:20:35.980because i ran tabloid magazines and i ran the daily news gossip column right like i knew i know
00:20:41.940when celebrities show up at these charity events and movie premieres they're doing it for one
00:20:45.860reason and one reason only especially if it's not their project it's to be seen and to be asked
00:20:50.660questions and to get attention so as and also as someone who grew up with famous parents she knows
00:20:58.960the ecosystem so much better than someone who like just got off the plane from iowa and stepped
00:21:05.740into hollywood stardom like yesterday right exactly exactly yes she's not i mean one comparison
00:21:12.280that I sort of had in my head as I was writing is like Brad Pitt. Like he grew up in Missouri
00:21:17.260in a religious Southern Baptist family. And then he decides to drive out to LA and try to make it
00:21:25.260like coming from nothing. That's not her. Like her parents were successful from the time she
00:21:29.980was born. I mean, she was nursing as a baby on a movie set with Blythe when she was 12 days old
00:21:35.440and was the milieu that she stayed in her whole life. And she had this sort of glamorous by
00:21:42.160coastal childhood going from LA to New York. When she entered seventh grade, her parents
00:21:47.080enrolled her in Spence, which is a very elite Upper East Side private school. So that exposed
00:21:51.460her to high society. Like Grecian princesses were there and they would do for their senior project.0.99
00:21:57.280Like one person told me an interview with their Aunt Elizabeth. Well, who's Aunt Elizabeth? Queen
00:22:02.100Elizabeth, the Queen of England. That's the million. And like girls who were super, super
00:22:08.640rich and kind of like not impressed by her and that actually seemed to really affect her for a
00:22:14.100long time because she saw all the success in hollywood she was engaged to brad pitt like
00:22:17.820she was so famous and they acted i mean whether or not they were but they just they acted like
00:22:22.460they didn't care and maybe it was jealousy maybe maybe they did care but they they never acted all
00:22:28.400that impressed but these girls are you know among the richest people in the world probably yeah yeah0.99
00:22:33.500and also royalty adjacent royalty yeah or literal royalty yeah which is interesting0.95
00:22:41.120because in a way Gwyneth created her own version of celebrity royalty I mean she doesn't then
00:22:47.640after Brad Pitt and Ben Affleck she doesn't just go marry you know average joe she marries one of
00:22:53.640the biggest rock stars in the world again choices yeah so the genesis of that relationship with
00:23:02.380chris martin i was told so her spence friends it close with some of them uh from the time they were
00:23:08.940in seventh grade and they were starting to settle down she would go to their weddings um and uh
00:23:16.600well actually she didn't go to one friend's wedding i was told specifically to hurt that
00:23:20.620friend but anyway she would she would go to their weddings they were settling down having children
00:23:26.140and she wanted that too and her father had died bruce paltrow died suddenly when she was 30
00:23:32.340they were taking a trip for her 30th birthday through italy together he had been diagnosed
00:23:37.740with throat cancer never really fully recovered fell ill and died and she was there alone with him
00:23:42.300which is a you know a horrible tragedy horrible and she's grieving the loss of her father she's
00:23:49.400living in london and she goes to see a coldplay concert and they end up meeting her and chris
00:23:55.300martin end up meeting and he encounters her at this very tender moment in her life when she's
00:24:00.880grieving her father and he is there for her and they their relationship you know was born in that
00:24:06.520moment and you know her friends told me like they never really seemed like they totally had chemistry
00:24:12.800um they seemed quite different uh but one of the one of the friends said there's got to be
00:24:20.740something about a rock star who adores you i am curious how self-aware she was that conscious
00:24:27.280uncoupling was going to turn into such a media sensation that it is something we can all still
00:24:34.100quote from and that I say and it is funny that like I mentioned conscious uncoupling like you
00:24:40.200know regularly enough that in like in normal life about different things I'm like oh I'm like this
00:24:45.320friendship is conscious uncoupling like in a humorous way almost as much as I read referenced
00:24:50.700another Gwyneth movie which I think people reference a lot who haven't even seen it sliding
00:24:55.300doors yeah that's true i hear people see sliding doors moment all the time and i'm like have you
00:25:02.200seen the movie and they're like no no yeah i was over i swear to god i was on a train and i was
00:25:08.980overhearing people talking about it and one person said sliding doors moment and another person was
00:25:12.960like what are you talking about and they're like you haven't seen that um anyway uh yeah just a
00:25:20.320She didn't even choose that subject line. One of her editors picked that subject line, which was obviously very triggering to people.
00:25:30.420I think what was interesting about that moment, too, is that she chose to make that announcement through Goop.
00:25:36.540And I think speaking of the astronomer thing, that was obviously calculated, I think, right?
00:25:41.680Like, sure, it helps her control the message, but on your own platform, which is a foreshadowing of media, because at that time, celebrities on social media was 2014.
00:25:50.320probably not all of them were there yet they were coming around actors in particular were
00:25:54.600really slow to get on social media as you surely remember yeah um you know and in this way i think
00:25:59.700she's one of the original influencers like in 2008 she's saying i'm gonna start a newsletter
00:26:03.480and like celebrities are afraid of the internet um so she sends it out through goop and that's
00:26:10.120just a really interesting sort of merging of her private and professional life in a way and
00:26:16.580And people said to me over and over again, Goop is all about Gwyneth.
00:26:25.560So, you know, making a very personal statement, like not giving it to AP, putting it on your own website where you're going to capitalize on the traffic.
00:26:34.440I'm sure she captured she was trying to build her newsletter.
00:26:36.700She probably got a bunch of new signups.
00:26:41.280And I think what triggered the public about it, in addition to those two words, conscious uncoupling, she ran an article on Goop by one of her gurus, Dr. Sadegi, who was blathering on and on about what it meant.
00:26:55.180And it was sort of like, you know, wellness wasn't as big of a thing, but it was coming up.
00:26:59.800But the way he talked about it, I think, was really off-putting to journalists who trade in facts and the truth.
00:27:06.060mm-hmm yeah i mean wellness gurus like you said were not what well wellness gurus are today
00:27:13.600right and so like actual grimalists were like what who is this quack that is talking about
00:27:18.620these things yeah and he this guy dr sadagi he didn't even come up with it it eventually came
00:27:24.920out or probably quickly came out that someone else came up with conscious uncoupling and they
00:27:29.900never credited her they never credited her i've had i've interviewed her i've talked to her before
00:27:35.140yes yes it is a it is a woman therapist and like yeah she was never credited yeah so i think that's
00:27:40.980a shame and she's not like a wellnessy type right no no i think i think she was a marriage therapist
00:27:46.080yeah this wellness spin on it and i mean i will say that like conscious uncoupling i think a lot
00:27:52.920of people have been negative negatively affected by divorce unfortunately and have seen divorce
00:27:57.940really destroy families so i think that the you know the ethos of it and their intention was
00:28:02.240really great. And from what I understand, they really did it. Like they really consciously
00:28:06.940uncoupled. And the whole idea behind it was, was to protect their children so that they could all
00:28:11.980be a family and they could be together with their children without hating each other, which is
00:28:17.680great. Which is great, which is actually great. I mean, I remember reading the conscious uncoupling
00:28:23.160thing and I'm like, this is the dumbest name for something that's awesome. Yeah, that's a really0.89
00:28:28.480great way of looking at it. I like this is how all divorces should be. But also this name is so dumb.
00:28:34.040Goop became famous for that gift guide. Do you remember? Ridiculous but awesome.0.99
00:28:37.560Ridiculous but awesome. It's like that. Exactly. Like I feel like she knew really well0.99
00:28:41.480how to push boundaries to push this business forward in that she knew that she was the story
00:28:47.600at that point, which is why I do think she was very self-aware or at least, you know, self-aware
00:28:51.940enough because she was this early influencer. She knows how to create a viral moment. She had0.99
00:28:58.180really good instincts about using her image to start her own brand instead of using her image
00:29:02.580to promote other brands like Estee Lauder, American Express. There were many that she was
00:29:07.860endorsing in the 2000s when it was sort of considered tawdry for actors to do that. Now
00:29:12.660that's obviously totally changed. Every actor is getting paid to plug something and aspires to get
00:29:18.400paid to plug something out yeah so she was early on I think my analysis of her polarizing-ness
00:29:28.320and her commentary and the quotes are fairly memorable like I can't pretend to be someone
00:29:33.980who makes $25,000 a year I'd rather smoke crack than eat cheese from a can like these kinds of
00:29:39.860quotes I think that what happened oh when she said something about the mommy wars she said
00:29:44.720something about how she liked running goop or like didn't want to do as many films when she
00:29:48.760had her kids because it was people didn't know how hard it was for her to go film a movie you
00:29:54.400know and like when you have an office job it's like easier right and then columnists had a field
00:29:59.080day like you know writing like hilarious retorts and stuff like that anyway so I think when she
00:30:04.240made comments like that that was like kind of her privilege coming through like she was trying to
00:30:09.280get on the level of average people she's never had an average life in any sort of way so she can't do
00:30:14.400it. And people pick up on that and react very strongly. People do react really strongly. And
00:30:20.880yet there's nothing average about goop. And I want to get into that after our last break.
00:30:33.980Okay, we are back. I remember walking into the goop store in LA because I had an event at that
00:30:39.800diesel bookstore that's right there next to the group store and like I mean I'm used to being0.90
00:30:44.680like in fancy stores and going to fancy parties right from when I was covering them but like I
00:30:49.740felt like I could touch nothing in this store and everything was so freaking expensive it was
00:30:55.980insanity and I remember like looking at one dress and like thinking about trying it on
00:31:00.380and the the saleswoman was like oh my gosh it is 70% off and it is never going to be this cheap
00:31:06.860again. And so I considered it for a moment and 70% off was still $2,000. And so really, I feel
00:31:13.440like goop is a thing. Even when I go on it now, you know, she's advertising the laser pro for
00:31:21.040six grand and a slide for $600. It's all aspirational, but like to the level that a lot
00:31:28.240of it will never be attainable. But then she has like some lower brow stuff that she throws out0.69
00:31:33.900there and then people gobble that up yeah what is the laser pro the laser pro appears to be
00:31:41.660like a red light near infrared clinic grade laser um that she is selling on goop for six grand
00:31:50.220right now yeah yeah you can use it on your on your face for as little as three minutes
00:31:57.400and apparently it's as good as as a facelift so i mean look and i think we all look at gwyneth
00:32:05.460and we're like i would look like that when i'm 52 looked into the research on infrared i looked
00:32:10.380into so many of the different things that grew promoted like the wellness fads that's really
00:32:13.940like kind of like the second half of the book you know yeah yeah and so many of them some of them
00:32:19.440are just going to be expensive they're not going to do anything bad for you some of them are actually
00:32:22.800going to harm you and maybe kill you which ones are going to harm you and maybe kill you like
00:32:26.580that can be our mic drop moment we can we can end oh she talked about getting stung by bees1.00
00:32:33.320uh yes i remember this and i had friends who had lyme disease who who wanted to do this
00:32:39.840well it can kill you people have died doing that so don't do that i think what they do is they
00:32:45.800inject bee venom if i'm not mistaken it's not like they put the bees on you and they sting you but um
00:32:51.540uh gerard butler did it and had like a very bad anaphylactic reaction like you can do it and not
00:32:56.740have any bad reaction and then all of a sudden get terrible anaphylaxis and die um and uh vaginal
00:33:04.660steaming uh what is the vaginal steaming is that what it sounds like like putting a steamer on
00:33:10.400your vajay to get wrinkles out you sit on some steam oh no like you're thrown with a hole in it
00:33:18.180and steam comes up as i am and it came up on goop in the context of a spa the tican spa in santa
00:33:26.140monica and she got this treatment and she really liked it so they promoted it on goop and then that
00:33:32.940was one of the early things where people went completely bananas um however i found a study
00:33:37.900written up in a journal about a woman i believe she was in canada who did this and sustained like0.96
00:33:43.100severe burns to her cervix yeah no that's i'm not i'm not gonna put steam anywhere near my vagina0.85
00:33:49.480i'm just not that's where i'm drawing the line yeah maybe that spa i don't know maybe they are
00:33:55.960really careful but i don't know i mean doctors don't recommend it anyway there's kind of no
00:33:59.540reason to to take on the risk as i understand it on interviewing medical experts uh and then coffee
00:34:06.280enemas are also yeah also really dangerous and she was she was made fun of a lot like colbert
00:34:12.600did a really hilarious bit about the implantorama coffee enema but that's really really dangerous
00:34:19.160that is not something you should do so but an infrared light mask like it's going to cost you
00:34:24.180a lot of money i don't think it's going to actually give you a surgical looking facelift0.99
00:34:27.740right right exactly but the more extreme i guess the the more extreme fads that she promotes or
00:34:35.060the more extreme gurus that she promotes the concern of experts is that people will you know
00:34:41.500drink celery juice instead of going to see their doctor if they have something suspicious going on
00:34:46.260with them. Do you know what I mean? Which is fair. Which does happen. Until it's too late. And this
00:34:52.140does happen. There are stories, many stories out there about patients who do this. I mean,
00:34:57.000talking anecdotally with doctors that I have encountered, you know, they many have stories
00:35:03.080about, you know, patients who have cancer that they could cure and then they, you know, they
00:35:07.420don't want to get surgery or do chemo or whatever they go off and get a vitamin drip and then they
00:35:11.720then they come back and it's no longer able to be cured so there are some serious consequences to
00:35:17.560to the the wellness industry in general i mean it's a 6.3 trillion dollar industry
00:35:22.540pharmaceutical industry is much smaller it's 1.6 or 1.7 trillion yeah yeah well i mean this leads
00:35:29.620into what what actually really is my last question now but you know we've seen the rise of hashtag
00:35:34.720Maha in the past year and a half, two years, right? But it feels like Gwyneth was the root
00:35:43.040of a lot of these things. I mean, a lot of the Maha on my feed now are doing and promoting the0.66
00:35:47.980coffee enemas and all the stuff. I mean, in a way, did you pave the way for this to be very
00:35:53.560acceptable to talk about things that are very questionable medically? That's what I argue in
00:35:59.140the book. I think so. I really think so. I think that she did a couple of things for the wellness
00:36:04.500industry that were really influential and important. One, she sowed a distrust of Western
00:36:10.640medicine and established science and trained experts. You see RFK Jr. doing the same thing
00:36:17.080as the Secretary of Health and Human Services, casting doubt on things as long proven as vaccines,
00:36:22.580unfortunately. And we see what's happened with measles. They were believed to be eradicated in
00:36:26.6202000. And now it's so bad that you basically can't take your infant on a plane or many doctors advise
00:36:32.400that you not until they get their first shot. So that's very unfortunate. I'm not saying Gwyneth
00:36:37.480is anti-vax, but I do think that the distrust of science really snowballs. And one expert I
00:36:42.800interviewed said facts aren't profitable. And I think that's really important to think about
00:36:47.780because the stuff that you're talking about, coffee enemas, all the stuff that we see on
00:36:50.940social media, you know, it's we know conspiracy theories really travel. We know that misinformation
00:36:57.580spreads sensationalist things really spread very well on social media yep the other thing she did
00:37:04.280for the wellness industry that i think is really important is she um she gave it this luxurious
00:37:10.940aesthetic yes yes she she created a world a wellness world that people want to be a part of
00:37:18.360and it's that incredible taste that she has that we see at the in group health conferences that
00:37:24.260she's been holding for a while um we see just looking at her this perfectionism this gorgeous
00:37:30.200taste that she has her homes her offices she gave this you know luxurious aspirational look and vibe0.87
00:37:38.060to wellness and people would are willing to pay a lot of money to be a part of that yeah yeah and0.94
00:37:44.960then also to create their own image based off it she did she made wellness very sexy very aspirational
00:37:53.220And we know that influencers who can position themselves aspirationally are the ones who who do the best and who end up going the most viral.
00:38:01.800So, yeah, I mean, I think that that is a really, really strong argument for I don't think it was.0.57
00:38:07.960I mean, obviously, she can't see in the future and see us going down this slippery slope of Maha that we have seen.0.84
00:38:15.120But yeah, but I will say she hasn't done anything to dispel it.0.80
00:38:19.040true you know when people ask her about rfk jr in interviews she says she says stuff like
00:38:24.920his ideas are interesting do you know what i mean and they both drink raw dairy products which
00:38:30.640you should not do all that's going to do is increase your risk of acquiring a foodborne
00:38:34.420illness which you do not want and if you have little kids at your house you especially don't
00:38:37.780want to risk having that that in your house anyway um so yeah she doesn't really dispel it
00:38:47.300which is a shame. You know, I interviewed Dr. Jen Gunter, who is a prolific OBGYN who writes
00:38:55.480quite often now about health misinformation and women. Oh, yeah. Dr. Jen is great. She is someone
00:38:59.800that I want everyone following on all of the platforms. Probably a lot of your listeners
00:39:03.140follow her and read her. I do. She's fantastic. She gets the good word out there. But she said
00:39:09.220to me, you know, imagine if Gwyneth Paltrow had been out there talking about abortion access.
00:39:17.200That's really powerful. Yeah. And reproductive rights. I mean, there are a lot of things that she could be doing for good. And it is a choice. It's a choice to not speak out about certain things as it is a choice to promote certain things. I think they're both equally weighted.
00:39:34.040Well, I love this book so much. I have already gifted it to a ton of my friends. They're so excited. I've had people come up to me at signings. Actually, I meant to email this to you the other day, but I got distracted by the astronomer thing. A woman was like, I'm packing my beach bag. I'm going to the beach next week. And I've got yours. But I'm just waiting for this new Gwyneth biography to come out. And I was like, oh, girl, you are in for a treat. And also listen to the Influence on Tuesday.
00:40:04.040that's awesome yeah so they have their non-fiction and their fiction yeah exactly exactly so yes um
00:40:10.640people are so psyched as they should be and then you don't need anything else you are the best will
00:40:15.340you tell everyone where they can find you on the interwebs yes you can find me on substack i'm amy
00:40:20.820odell.substack.com you can find me on instagram it's i-n-s-t-a-m-y-o-d-e-l-l and i'm on tiktok
00:40:30.120as Amy O'Dell writer, but I'm I don't know. I'm sort of a fairweather TikToker. Maybe I'll scoot
00:40:36.000on over there now that my book is done and I have more time to make videos. Yeah, sure, sure. I keep
00:40:40.440saying I'll do it every day and I wake up and I never do it. So, so much work. So much work.
00:40:46.120Oh, all right. Goodbye, my friend. Bye.