00:02:08.020This brings up so many thoughts, so many issues.
00:02:13.120so many problems, I think. I mean, finding a therapist is hard enough as it is. Figuring
00:02:20.440out how to pay for therapy is often impossible. And now we have to be asking, are you also
00:02:28.940on the TikToks? Here to talk to me about all of it today is the author of this piece for
00:02:37.480bustle, Kate Lindsay. Okay, Kate, I am so excited to have you on today because this is a topic I
00:02:47.740think about a lot and not just with therapists, but with everyone. And especially because I have
00:02:56.880a podcast and I have a very pathetic social media following, but following nonetheless. And, you
00:03:04.760know does does my gynecologist follow me do my kids teachers follow me and listen to me and like
00:03:15.220how would they feel if they heard me talking about certain things I feel like the world that we live
00:03:21.380in right now is so strange because we all seem to have many different kinds of identities like both
00:03:29.960public and private. And you really got to the heart of that in this piece called My Therapist
00:03:37.940is a TikTok Star. And I just, I want to dig into all of it. I want to get into all of it.
00:03:47.320I read a little bit about the story in the introduction, but tell me, tell me about
00:03:54.300So Kaylin, tell me about the person that you opened the story with.
00:03:58.980Yeah, so when I went kind of looking for this, this one was an interesting one when it comes to finding people for it because lots of times TikTok can be a really great tool because kind of for similar reasons you were just saying, everyone is posting everything online.
00:04:15.520So like if I'm looking for sources who have had a particular experience, they've posted about it and they're really easy to track down.
00:04:22.040with this i so i i thought it would be as easy as it has previously been and this was a little
00:04:29.160bit more difficult because well it was like i knew statistically there had to like i there are
00:04:35.320tons of tiktok therapists um and they all presumably have multiple clients i was like i
00:04:40.640know i know this is a thing but this isn't isn't getting posted about as much when i was searching
00:04:45.580for it um it was people who didn't have tiktok therapists but were talking about how how much
00:04:52.660they'd hate it if they found their therapist on tiktok um so it took a bit of digging and um
00:04:59.640kaylin is someone she was actually the first person i i found um and i she she just sort of
00:05:06.660had i i think i found a post i think maybe on twitter uh just about this happening and i reached
00:05:11.420out um and it was so interesting because not not only had it happened to her once that it happened
00:05:17.160to her twice where she had realized that the therapist she was speaking to had a social media
00:05:22.660presence in one case it was it was youtube um and so the fact that it like the fact like i just can't
00:05:30.180like we kind of joked about it on the phone the idea of you get a new therapist because you're
00:05:34.840old therapist you had some discomfort with their social media presence and then you're like oh my
00:05:38.340gosh not again um that's basically what happened with her she just rather than having any super
00:05:44.260concrete issues to point to the just the the underlying concern that the conversations they
00:05:49.860were having um in confidential sessions could end up informing content or even if it didn't if it
00:05:56.880just having that suspicion like she would she would see a youtube video and be like i wonder
00:06:02.560if that is something they're doing because we said this specific thing in session i think
00:06:07.480it just led to a certain level of, I guess, paranoia and distrust that you just obviously
00:06:12.040don't want in a relationship with your mental health professional. No, no, you sure don't. And
00:06:19.100we've done episodes before about therapy, social media, when I think that the one I did was about
00:06:27.060three years ago. So it was probably before the rise of therapy talk, before it was as big as it
00:06:33.940is now. But what I know is that there really aren't that many boundaries or regulations
00:06:41.740about whether or not therapists can be on social media. What did you learn about that?
00:06:49.540Yeah. So this I thought was interesting. So I spoke to, because one of the things
00:06:53.960when my dad and I were talking about this, we were like, I wonder what they're being told,
00:06:59.680Like, you know, what what therapists to be are being told in school about this.
00:07:04.640And so I got in contact with a professor at NYU and sort of asked about it.
00:07:10.160And they said that basically there there isn't.
00:07:14.800So what they said was that the sort of ethics guidelines for counselors in general have not been updated since 2014.
00:07:22.200so there is language about social media in that but it is for 2014 social media which
00:07:29.560is before TikTok um and also just like more importantly before before what TikTok popularized
00:07:37.460which is an algorithm that pushes your content out to strangers and the whole point of posting
00:07:42.900on social media is to reach like as many people as possible versus talking to each other um so
00:07:48.360there aren't really rules that account for the gray areas that come up when it's like you don't
00:07:55.320know who will see this. And I also think a big thing that is at the root of a lot of people's
00:08:00.980concerns about TikTok therapists, not just that, oh, are they saying things from their private
00:08:07.860sessions online? But I think for me, what would concern me a little bit is where the reward
00:08:14.540mechanisms of social media, particularly of algorithms where you're really incentivized to
00:08:20.260make content that reaches as many people as possible. And you kind of subconsciously
00:08:25.340might alter your content to be a bit more controversial or grabby. And a therapist
00:08:32.000wouldn't be immune to that. It's very like chemical. And I think that's when you can get
00:08:37.120instances of bad practice online, which there have been. But back to the original question,
00:08:44.260And that's not really something they have any guidelines for about what they are and aren't allowed to post.
00:08:48.800They just kind of really broadly, you know, they can't interact with their clients on social media.
00:08:54.380And of the therapists I've spoke to, they'll do things like make sure there's really clear disclaimers that what they're posting is not therapy.
00:09:01.140It is edutainment or, you know, mental health content.
00:09:06.160Um, so, but, you know, things like that, where, uh, it's more about the relationship between them and the client and maintaining confidentiality. There aren't really any guidelines about, you know, how should they, what shouldn't, shouldn't they be posting on TikTok?
00:09:20.880Right. Right. Or should they not be on at all? I, you know, I do think that there is a universe where maybe maybe you take some kind of, oh, that shall not be on on social media. I think it is just a quagmire right now.
00:09:40.380I know. And it makes me think about because I think like, you know, maybe 10 years ago, even that ask is like would not have been that great. Like I think about it's still a little bit similar to like the shift I've seen with teachers on social media, which is when I was in high school, I remember like the only real rule.
00:09:59.960well like I mean there was so much stuff about a teacher needed to be careful about their social
00:10:06.000media presence and then we weren't allowed to friend our teachers on Facebook until after we
00:10:09.640graduated and stuff like that um and now teachers show up on my TikTok all the time like in their
00:10:17.220classroom filming their students sometimes like it reminds me of um it reminds me of therapists
00:10:22.760in a similar way where I'm a little bit like wait shouldn't there be rules about this um and
00:10:27.860And and yeah, and I think the hard part now is like before, like 10 years ago, being like, OK, don't be on Instagram.
00:10:34.940That's not some huge loss. But I think because of the pandemic and just how our relationship with social media has shifted over the past decade, it's a lot more integral to how we live life.
00:10:47.900And or at least it feels I think that more so it feels that way. It feels like it's something we can live without.
00:10:54.360Yeah, absolutely. And I'm sure that there is also an argument for, well, this is my brand. I want to spread my teachings, spread my knowledge. This is how I acquire new clients. Maybe I'm working on a book.
00:11:14.220and these days we we do all have to be a brand in a way I know that I'm exhausted by my brand
00:11:23.300building right now I say that every time I say that though listeners write to me and they're
00:11:27.620like you need sleep you don't sound well and I'm like oh I mean I'm okay I'm okay I uh the
00:11:34.920Sicilian inheritance is the book of the summer because I won't shut up about it but I I do
00:11:43.360believe that there are some spaces that should be closed spaces and conversations that should just
00:11:51.720be intimate and not available for content. For people that don't know about this, I want to get
00:12:00.360into a little bit more about the world of therapy talk. But really quick, let's take a very quick
00:12:08.000break. And when we get back, you're going to explain the big, crazy world of therapy on social
00:12:14.820media. I didn't like what you said, Odin pauses, about the future. This is the love story of real
00:12:29.380hinge couple Odin and Edward, written and read by me, Curtis Garner. Listen to the free audiobook now.
00:12:38.000okay we're back for people who don't know about this world talk to me about therapy talk what
00:12:57.020what is this yeah so i think um sort of from the conversations i've had and just what i've observed
00:13:03.380I think therapy talk was really like so many other things.
00:13:07.240I think you could make the same, you could draw the same line, I think was really a product
00:13:10.760of the pandemic, which was that everything moved online.
00:13:16.540Like, you know, if we just isolated the therapist, I mean, they, you know, you could do Zoom
00:13:20.160therapy as normal, but they, I just think how they did therapy was really drastically
00:13:32.360But I think Therapy Talk in particular, I think, came about in the pandemic when therapists sort of realized that they could bring, especially with sessions also being digital, that they could bring that same type of guidance to instead of an individual person to a wider audience.
00:13:50.540I think it was a way to find community with other therapists during that time, but also I think just a way to talking to the world in a time when we were all shut up at home.
00:14:00.760And so what these videos are, I mean, they range so much, and every therapist has a different style.
00:14:06.960It'll be, you know, signs you have anxious attachment or something.
00:14:12.880It'll basically be a BuzzFeed listicle, but in short form, video form.
00:14:19.840Or, you know, they'll answer questions from people about, I don't know, like how certain like not like, you know, not to be diagnosed or anything like that, but like questions about like how being a therapist works.
00:14:32.820And they really sort of through this became personalities and and would just that that's what their content was.
00:14:41.380It was a little bit more broad, public facing, digestible little tidbits of advice.
00:14:47.540And, you know, sometimes, you know, one therapist I spoke to in the piece named Meg, who joined TikTok, she joined.
00:14:54.780And I think this is the case for a lot of other people, because as TikTok therapy became so popular, TikTok therapist, you would see people who maybe you just you disagreed with or were talking about things in a way you didn't like or maybe a subject that you think is really important.
00:15:09.660you just don't see in the conversation and then you're like okay well I have to come in and either
00:15:14.080correct this or fill this void or I want to make sure you know that there's there can be so much
00:15:18.640bad information out there so I want to be a source of good information but it becomes like just this
00:15:23.960exponential growth because everyone kind of has their their own motives and like crucially the
00:15:28.620reason this is happening is because the content is popular I mean TikTok is very well known for
00:15:33.100people self-diagnosing themselves now that's not anything new I feel like when I was on Tumblr
00:15:39.380That's what everyone was doing was just self-diagnosing themselves with anxiety, which like I do have, but I definitely learned from Tumblr.
00:15:45.880And so this is a similar thing here. People, I think, love to be seen, love to have their questions answered. And I also think in a more cynical sense, love to contort things about themselves or the hardships they face maybe into the language of maybe actually being a mental health issue.
00:16:11.200That's like very cynical, but I think that's why that's, but in that sense, it speaks to
00:16:15.980so many different people, whether they're earnestly coming for help or they take comfort
00:16:34.520And I also, I think when probably you probably feel this way too, when you cover this stuff,
00:16:38.300you just have like an innate exhaustion with it.
00:16:41.200um and skepticism yeah and skepticism because you know the the the key difference between a
00:16:48.020tiktok therapist and a therapist in session is a therapist in session is talking to you
00:16:52.080and they know everything about you that you've told them you probably have an established
00:16:56.900relationship but on tiktok they're talking to everyone and um yes and so like they can't give
00:17:03.820you specified content they don't know your situation they and they also like can't be
00:17:08.620accountable to little caveats you may have and I think something that the professor at NYU who I
00:17:15.520spoke to mentioned was that like just since TikTok therapist became a thing there has been a rise
00:17:20.400just that he's noticed of clients coming in and sort of saying they already know what it is they're
00:17:25.680suffering from and then you ask like well how do you know that and it is from TikTok and I don't
00:17:31.480want to write off how social media can be a tool of learning these things about yourself but I think
00:17:35.260it just goes back to that like tendency to self-diagnose from content that is really general
00:17:40.920not actually a therapist who is talking to you and knows you totally and and you don't have to
00:17:45.700write it off I can write it off I'm I'm just intensely skeptical and you said something that
00:17:51.800that really you know sparked my interest before that people have been doing this forever not just
00:17:59.580when the internet's been around people have been getting self-help books and being like this is
00:18:03.660definitely me yeah since the beginning of media i genuinely believe that social media makes it
00:18:10.540more dangerous because it is just available constantly and there's so much more of it and
00:18:15.400it's a thing that lives in our hand and that feels a lot more intimate and a lot more real
00:18:20.920than buying some self-help book that you went out to a bookstore to buy or reading an article in a
00:18:28.700magazine there's just more of it it's closer to us and it's more intimate and that makes it seep
00:18:35.740into our brains yeah a different way and it it's like infiltrating culture beyond just you know
00:18:44.160someone's own quest for self-improvement i think you know i would say tiktok therapists and not
00:18:50.760even them themselves with the culture that they kind of really um exploded or popularized is
00:18:56.360responsible for things like therapy speak which is um basically when you're talking to a friend
00:19:02.140or a loved one who if who you should be able to sort of talk i mean and like to put it bluntly
00:19:08.340normally with but instead you're using these this like language of therapy in the many cases
00:19:12.720or at least i feel weaponizing the language of therapy to like avoid for talk to your husband
00:19:18.820or your yes yeah like avoid yeah or your dog walker yes yeah where it's just like you made
00:19:25.680me feel very unsafe right and it's something about therapy speak in general i think because
00:19:31.500you're using words about mental health and we all like understandably want to respect mental health
00:19:36.700it does it can be weaponized in a way that like shields you from being interrogated on the thing
00:19:43.980you're asking because you're like you've already kind of put up the the trump card of therapy speak
00:19:49.260where it's like okay well if i feel like if i disagree with this person i'm like being a bad
00:19:53.220person um and and then but then it like you know it's the it it's a trickle down into like when
00:19:59.080you see conversations about you know I would never drive a friend to the airport or um or like you
00:20:06.140know I'd be sitting on the phone comforting a friend is like too much emotional labor for me
00:20:10.280like terms like that where it's like what is this because like what you're describing is just like
00:20:16.120what caring about another person is and now you're and and somehow like it sounds like if
00:20:22.940If you don't want to be on the phone with a person and help them through an issue, then I just think that's not your friend.
00:20:28.200They're not actually you're not just you're not doing emotional labor.
00:20:31.500You're not being subjected to some injustice.
00:20:33.500They are leaning on you for like what it is you should if you are a person who feels friendship for them.
00:20:41.240It's something that you would like jump to do without thinking.
00:20:43.260It's just this weird boiling down to transactions, what being a human and having relationships with other humans is.
00:20:51.780And I don't think that's supposed to be the point of therapy. But I think it's, you know, when it when these terms that are meant for like specific situations get put in the hands of the masses, they can be used, I would say, like for worse. And as a way to like it, I think it can feed into selfishness, I guess I like I'm really trying to be diplomatic about certain things because I'm not actually like a hater.
00:21:18.360but um i do think if you follow the effects of this to like the worst corners of it that is a
00:21:25.760little bit what it's um what it shows up as no i think you're right i do i do you're much more
00:21:31.340diplomatic than i am my lack of a filter has just grown and in the past i mean i just i think that0.96
00:21:41.360when you become a woman of a certain age you just stop giving all of the fuck oh yeah
00:21:45.060I think I think it's because I am so aware of, you know, I mentioned like I grew up on Tumblr and I do think or even OK, even like a recent example is like my therapist and I recently came to the conclusion that what I was dealing with was not just broad anxiety, but obsessional thoughts.0.96
00:22:07.280And so we started looking at things through an OCD lens. But the only reason we came to that is like because I forget what specifically, but like I think I saw I saw myself in something online that framed the thought patterns that this person was experiencing as OCD.
00:22:22.580And then I was like, wait, let me that's interesting. Let me look into this because I always thought OCD was what this thing was. And so in that sense, it's like, OK, well, having that person speak up and be, you know, representation was helpful for me because once my therapist and I switched to that framework, like we made so much more progress.
00:22:40.540So I'm like, well, I know, like, I don't want to be like, oh, it worked for me. It is bad for everyone else. But I think that's like a good example. But I think there's no good examples, too, as there are with like everything in life.
00:22:55.640I mean, after I read your article, I started just digging through a lot of these accounts.
00:23:03.660And one of the things that I think we have to be aware of when we're looking at this content, and that's what I want people to take away from these episodes the most, it's just think critically about everything that you're looking at.
00:23:17.880And I think the biggest thing is why is someone why is someone posting? Right. So you have you mentioned Bay Area psychotherapist Meg Josephson. And, you know, she says that she started posting just to correct misinformation about mental health.
00:23:40.200But then things went viral and she got 250,000 followers and it became what she calls a vital
00:23:48.740way to promote her practice. She says most of her clients come to her from social media
00:23:54.000and that she recently landed a book deal. So what is the why there? I mean, you're like,
00:24:00.380yeah, this is not I don't think this is any longer to help people. This is very self-promotional.
00:24:07.860And when you're in a role like therapist, that's where it starts to get dangerous for me.
00:24:18.480And I think in so many cases, sometimes I think you can overthink it, but I can be aware that if I'm like, oh, I'm posting, I'm trying to think of a concrete example, but I'll always be like, what is the actual thing I'm trying to say?
00:24:35.520because i'll be posting like oh here's a little like a little fun picture and it's like but what
00:24:39.560am i actually trying to show on the picture like okay i actually remember an example but it was
00:24:43.840like it's so um it's so in the weeds that like i feel insane but i remember i wanted to film a
00:24:50.320tiktok in this little part of my um of my apartment where i at one on the wall in a certain area i
00:24:58.440have framed an article i wrote for the new york times and i was like setting up the the camera
00:25:05.920and it was like i realized what i was trying to show with that angle was not what i wanted to say
00:25:13.140in the video i wanted to have the new york times thing in shot and i i got two in my head and i
00:25:19.740moved to a totally different place because i was like i i can feel myself that would be a
00:25:26.320disingenuous post not in the sense that like what I was saying in it isn't true but that there was
00:25:31.280like this weird ulterior motive in there that was that felt honestly like kind of embarrassing and
00:25:35.600almost like animalistic but feels very real and also like I think because I'm like very I've spent
00:25:44.980a lot of time thinking about this stuff I went through the thought exercise of being like wait
00:25:49.800why am I actually doing this but I think it's understandable if you're just a regular person
00:25:54.960going about your day they would like not do that interrogation in fact it's like exhausting to do
00:25:59.120that interrogation every time you post but so I think then that sort of the secret motive can come
00:26:06.100up and in so many cases if like the the secret motive for putting something on social media
00:26:11.560is attention I mean like when you really it's you can't really pretend it's anything else and I think
00:26:18.860sometimes especially as adults or professionals we want to be like oh no we're above that but like
00:26:23.260no it's not like you're not i i posted a tiktok the other day that was like weighing in with my
00:26:28.880own experience on like what like a sort of controversial tiktok and like i could pretend
00:26:33.560that it was for some other reason but like i was drawn to do it because i knew it was a buzzy topic
00:26:38.300and the tiktok would do well and it did well and it's like my motive for that was attention if you
00:26:42.580really just like boil it down and um and i think that's when social media can be really difficult
00:26:48.100and like when i say i like really overthink this i'm like why am i posting this is it just for
00:26:52.000attention and if the answer is like really yes I'm like okay I don't really want to do that because
00:26:57.260it makes me feel bad but I think you know when you mix that with something like mental health
00:27:02.140or like you know in the case of like Meg when you were getting like these incredible opportunities
00:27:06.760like a book deal you're even if you're you know a therapist who is uh evolved and like an expert in
00:27:13.700these things that doesn't mean you're not immune to that same like little you know monkey part of
00:27:19.580your brain it's like more attention good okay um but then that's when you can post problematic
00:27:25.580stuff like not this isn't meg but um some of some examples of there was a really like prominent
00:27:32.040instance that happened i think two years ago um it's in it's in the piece but it's with a
00:27:37.760therapist who was using a sound the sound was someone chanting um holy spirit activate and
00:27:44.000it's always so by the way insane to explain a tiktok trend it like always just comes out
00:27:49.880it's so crazy yeah in words it's like what um but basically the sound was used when
00:27:55.640to to sort of soundtrack any skit that was about needing help from like a higher power um and so
00:28:02.900people were using it during times when they were like exasperated and this therapist made a video
00:28:08.180with the sound and she kind of used text to say like when your client wants to trauma dump on the
00:28:14.640first session so number one trauma dump is therapy speak it's not even real like I don't even think
00:28:19.980like in session a therapist would ever use that um but also so but also what that wasn't I mean
00:28:25.060some there's like so many things wrong with that um the big one being is like she was like maybe
00:28:30.440still is she did lose clients from this but she was a trauma counselor and so it's like if if
00:28:35.600anywhere it should be permissible to quote unquote trauma dump it should be in session with your
00:28:41.440trauma counselor um and but like and so people got really upset by it and rightly so being like wait
00:28:48.280now I'm worried I'm like saying too much to my therapist and really that therapist doesn't think
00:28:53.520at all about trauma dumping what she thought about was okay here's a trend that's trending
00:28:58.520this is a buzzy word and I think in her assumption she thought this would be funny and but like that
00:29:04.560was the motivator and what it actually did was harm uh harm potential current patients and
00:29:10.360potential patients she lost I know a buzzfeed reported this like two clients from it um
00:29:14.200and then I mean even like a recent one um that I saw when just scrolling was a therapist talking
00:29:21.000about like when she's wondering how a client is affording this session and then she overhears the
00:29:27.800parents in the waiting room and then it's like oh and so like the joke is like oh the parents are
00:29:32.480paying for it but it's like wait why is my therapist is my therapist thinking about my
00:29:36.040finances like or like judging me for my parents paying for therapy like all this stuff where it's
00:29:42.100just like you're trying to be funny you're trying to be relatable and you're like relatable too close
00:29:47.040to the sun and then you're like actually making a client feel judged or unsafe and that is like
00:29:52.680no therapist wants to do that but that is I think when you get the little animalistic draw of like
00:29:58.720attention on social media and that's the lens through which you're thinking about what you post
00:30:02.740there's a lot more potential to make those missteps yeah absolutely absolutely all right
00:30:10.980we're going to take one more quick break uh and when we get back i i want to figure out if this
00:30:16.060is something the patient should be screening for should we ask our therapist if they're on social
00:30:21.580media? You want to impress them on a first date, but also play it cool. So what do you do? I'm
00:30:34.200Rufy Thorpe, and I wrote and read a real love story about a hinge couple that navigated exactly
00:30:39.240that. Listen to the free audiobook now. Okay, we're back. Now, we were just, we've been talking
00:30:52.940about your own personal therapy. Is your therapist on social media? She is not, but I did when I was
00:31:00.560first started looking at this piece before I even interviewed anybody, I just was like
00:31:04.000asking her about it i was just like i want to know like not like obviously not for quote like
00:31:09.980quotation or anything but i was just like what is the vibe on this um and she is not but she said
00:31:16.000she has thought about it not necessarily putting her face out there but you know going the
00:31:22.140infographic route or something um and i do think like my my assumption is maybe that when that's
00:31:28.580what people in your community are doing when it's becoming a trend you do get like pulled towards it
00:31:32.160But but so no, my mine is is not. But she. I would like will be the way she's social media curious, like social media curious, social media curious.
00:31:44.640Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you pulled a couple of quotes from from people on on the socials, you know, saying, you know, what they would feel like if they found out if their therapist was on social media.
00:31:58.260one says if i saw my therapist on tiktok i would simply pass away if i another another if i saw
00:32:05.940my therapist giving advice on tiktok i would kill her yeah um okay okay the internet's a bad place0.92
00:32:12.800but uh wow wow but i don't i mean i do not advocate killing anyone i don't i don't but0.97
00:32:22.260not that cynical not that cynical uh but i do think it is a fair question i wouldn't go to a
00:32:28.060therapist who's a social media therapist i was actually just listening to uh an episode of modern
00:32:35.960love with esther perel who i like a lot whose books i read uh would never go to her as a marriage
00:32:44.160therapist because i'm like i don't want my life my life is already public enough with what i choose
00:32:50.860to put out there. But that I don't want my therapist to be a public figure. And I do think
00:32:58.520that an Esther Perel is a very, you know, I think she used to be a very specific example, right?
00:33:05.720There used to be like three high profile therapists out there. And now with many, many therapists on
00:33:12.900TikTok, I think it's a question worth asking when you're when you're shopping. And reminder to
00:33:18.640everyone that finding a therapist is so hard anyway getting it paid for by health insurance
00:33:24.240is so hard anyway so like it just feels like we're adding another hurdle to find someone to
00:33:30.120care for our mental health to be like hey are you on social media and if so where do you get your
00:33:37.360content and do you talk about your clients that feels so uncomfortable but also now necessary to
00:33:41.900me right yeah so this was something that i spoke to some of the therapists about and jeff gunther
00:33:48.020who's therapy jeff he's like probably one of the better known like when you say tiktok therapist
00:33:51.920i think his face pops up for a lot of people and his name is therapy therapy jeff therapy jeff
00:33:57.820some of these names though i mean just like yeah okay um but so what was interesting for him because
00:34:04.360i asked about this um he has not taken on any new clients since he started posting on tiktok for
00:34:10.860that reason which is that um he doesn't want anyone coming in with like a preconceived notion
00:34:19.140of him um from what they see online and it was very interesting because he was like you know my
00:34:24.600because he sort of tells this anecdote when he first started posting he hadn't told his um
00:34:29.880existing clients yet and then they came across it organically and he was saying the weirdest part
00:34:34.760for both of them was that like when he's online he's doing a persona and uh that it doesn't
00:34:39.600necessarily mesh with how the patients know him in the room. So, so he won't take any on. I am
00:34:45.500curious about like, he's been a therapist for a very long time. So he has, I think, just a lot
00:34:50.620of preexisting clients because I'm curious if that's sustainable to not take any, like, what
00:34:55.900is he going to, I don't know. And I guess I'm not his business manager, so that's for him to figure
00:34:59.420out. But, but, but for Meg, she was brand new. She didn't have any clients. We just started
00:35:03.820posting and now it has been a really helpful way for her to get clients and i i can see a case like
00:35:10.760when i was looking for my therapist i didn't want them on social media in that way but i would i
00:35:14.660wanted i needed them to understand social media because so many of my i mean you heard me talking
00:35:18.960about the new york times thing being in frame like i i have a lot of neuroses that's very like
00:35:24.120social media based and i was like i need a therapist who understands like why it matters
00:35:29.140and why like it's like valid to be anxious about this and what meg was saying was that you know
00:35:34.740people can you can get it you can see how they talk and move and all this stuff and maybe it
00:35:39.060helps you feel more connected to them before you go to them but the really blanket thing to what
00:35:43.820you were saying is that like i think the thing that can be agreed even though the guidelines
00:35:48.840haven't been updated is that if a therapist has like a public facing social media presence they
00:35:54.240need to disclose that in something called an informed consent form when you join them and so
00:35:59.400it like says up front like it's all this stuff about like if i see you in person i won't go up
00:36:04.360to you all this stuff and then you know i just signed one for my therapist a few years in when
00:36:08.040she updated hers just to say that like she would never seek me out on social media if i messaged
00:36:12.540her like she's like i think i literally don't know i haven't looked for it but i probably imagine a
00:36:16.660personal instagram account like if i dm that she will not answer um so that's like a for my sign
00:36:21.860And so when you make public facing content, the sort of suggestion is in there.
00:36:26.760It needs to say, I am public facing on social media and, you know, say, like, I don't talk about our sessions or like if you comment, I won't respond like all this stuff.
00:36:34.780But, yeah, I think it needs to be something up front, because I think the the thing that everyone described of the clients who I spoke to now, none of the clients like left their therapist, I think because like, you know, you read those tweets and everyone's very like aggressive about if they see their therapist.
00:36:46.840But if you like them and you have a longstanding relationship and then you come across them on social media, it's not as much of a deal breaker, at least for the people I spoke to.
00:36:55.660It was kind of like surprising and they had to like sit with it for a second, but they kept going.
00:37:01.000But they didn't bring it up with their therapist, which is I just think it needs to not be a secret.
00:37:05.920It needs to not be that unspoken thing because it goes back to what we were talking about at the beginning, whereas if there's a level of discomfort in that relationship at all, it's not going to be effective.
00:37:13.400So, yeah, I think it needs to be very upfront. It needs to not be a surprise at all.
00:37:21.280Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. I don't think it can be a surprise. And I, yeah, I have such
00:37:31.320mixed feelings about it. I do. Because even if you're not openly talking about specific clients
00:37:39.660and people said to you in this piece that i'm not talking about our sessions but these sessions
00:37:45.420influence me and they might subconsciously influence the content i'm creating that's not
00:37:52.120a line that's a very very blurry confusing area and i think it's interesting because and it's like
00:37:59.340a it's like a question for some like a higher power because i think it's like and i can
00:38:03.300you know like i think about it from like my culture writer brain where it's like oh if you
00:38:08.600see something popping up in a bunch of different places it's like oh this is a larger conversation
00:38:12.240and like that's how I write an article and so it's interesting that like for them like if they're
00:38:17.320talking to clients and they're seeing like a lot of issues pop up like I like in I like I asked
00:38:24.540this question of Meg when I like interviewed I actually interviewed her for my newsletter way
00:38:28.420earlier um and I had asked like what's something you're seeing and so she's able to identify like
00:38:34.220a lot of people really have the fear that they're in trouble um that's like what it distills down
00:38:38.580to but so like that comes from like she knows that from sessions uh and so yeah it's like what
00:38:43.980are you are you comfortable with being inspiration and I think even if it's not you know about your
00:38:48.820you specifically like it can't like it's totally against the rules if they did that because of
00:38:52.600confidentiality but you know are you comfortable with being inspiration is like a question you
00:38:56.080have to ask yourself and I think for a lot of people really for valid reasons the answer would
00:39:00.880be no um and yeah I'm like I guess I wouldn't care but you know it's really really to each
00:39:08.340their own and so it does it just is like what we were saying like it needs to be really clear if
00:39:12.880the therapist wants to be on social media like their client needs to know because i think the
00:39:17.100biggest betrayal the biggest like gray area that i think would absolutely be seen as a betrayal is
00:39:22.460finding out that even if they aren't naming you even if you don't hear your exact situation if
00:39:27.760you have a if you can see that like clearly your therapist is talking about something online that
00:39:32.600you guys also spoke about um and you didn't know that that that can I totally understand why that
00:39:39.440feels like a huge betrayal of trust um and I think I think it all it kind of comes back to
00:39:46.460something that is like plaguing me about social media since I was like a tween which is when you
00:39:52.040post online I think it's sometimes easy to forget you think you're not talking to real people like
00:39:59.020it just kind of goes out into a void and then you get given numbers um and and i think therapists
00:40:06.120or like teachers like what we're talking about um that's an example of where like it you would get
00:40:13.120the like the i can get away for the most part when i as a journalist when i talk about my articles on
00:40:19.620like tiktok it doesn't i don't really ever get like it i hardly get people in real life who i
00:40:26.600talk to who read my stuff. And when I do, it's very weird and I don't know how to interact with
00:40:30.340it. But with a therapist or a teacher, that's way more likely that you're going to get in front of
00:40:35.500someone you have an actual relationship with or awareness of. But I think it's easy to forget
00:40:44.920when you're just posting to an algorithm and then just getting lots of numbers. Yeah, it's really
00:40:50.540thorny. And I think the big thing is they've got to update those ethics guidelines. They do. They
00:40:55.700do i i my last therapist was so strict about not talking about his personal life i was obsessed
00:41:03.500with his wonderful mid-century modern furniture and i would constantly be like where'd you get
00:41:09.900that lamp christian and he'd be like we don't talk about me that's so funny just tell me where0.90
00:41:16.820you got the fucking lamp because i can't think about anything else until you tell me but that0.89
00:41:21.980felt like a like a serious code like a lion he'd drawn and i do think he was a certain age he was0.99
00:41:29.220probably 50 and i think that the new generation of therapists uh it's it's just a little different
00:41:37.120everything seems a little blurrier to me yeah yeah it yeah i think it has to be i mean the
00:41:43.420answer to so many of these questions i think it just it has to be transparent and open in in lieu
00:41:50.180have like any answers to the gray area, the best thing that like the people can do is just like you
00:41:55.360have to be upfront and honest and allow for uncomfortable conversations like your patient
00:42:00.580being like, I feel betrayed by this. Exactly. Exactly. And I think transparency is going to
00:42:05.100be the key going forward. None of this is going away. Right. We're not we're not getting off of
00:42:10.020our phones. Social media isn't disappearing. We know that the government is unlikely to regulate
00:42:14.620anything. So yes, as creators, we need to be more transparent. I try to be as transparent as
00:42:20.860possible. I was like, you know, I desperately want to sell you books. I want you to listen
00:42:25.000to my podcasts. And I also share things about my life because I think it's important to share
00:42:30.120women's stories. That's my whole my whole thing. I've got nothing else, people. But we don't see
00:42:37.140transparency in most of these accounts. And we have to view them also as media brands. Now,
00:42:42.600everyone is their own little media brand and so you have to judge it as thus and not necessarily
00:42:48.000as this is a therapist just trying to help people because i'm sure they are i'm sure many of them
00:42:52.100are trying to help people but they also want attention yeah agreed that's how you said you
00:42:58.040summed it up really nicely there uh well i loved this piece this was so good i you know bustle is0.98
00:43:03.640doing such great work in an age where media is a shit fuck of dumpster fiery yes bustle is doing0.94
00:43:12.380doing great reporting so tell everyone where they can find you and the things that you write0.98
00:43:16.660yeah so um i am you know largely just a internet culture writer i have my own newsletter called
00:43:24.720embedded um and then i write for a few places pretty regularly so yeah bustle's a big one
00:43:30.600um yeah they have some great stuff then i'm also uh over i i will sometimes write for the atlantic
00:43:36.740uh gq and vulture and then i'll just like pop up where you least expect it sometimes but i would
00:43:44.040say embedded is the place to go for like regular i'm there a couple times every week with um new
00:43:49.840and sometimes bizarre things on the internet great actually you know i wasn't subscribing
00:43:54.540to embedded and now yeah yeah well welcome well can you just can you just add me can you just
00:44:00.180add my email address oh yeah okay yeah absolutely yeah embedded guys i love it when i love it when
00:44:05.020I discover new things. Well, this has been wonderful. Everybody ask your therapist if
00:44:09.200they're on the TikToks and then make up your own mind. Make up your own mind. We all deserve all
00:44:15.580the information. And that is all we have for today. I don't know about you, but I don't want
00:44:22.700my therapist to be on the TikTok and the Instagram. I mean, it just, I feel like it's very difficult
00:44:31.080to make the call about what you share and what you don't share on social media. And there will
00:44:37.980inevitably be some bleed between what you do in your therapy sessions and what you're producing
00:44:44.780as content. And for me, that does seem dangerous. Thankfully, my therapists do not seem to be on the
00:44:54.280social media. But you never know. You never know. Thank you for being here with us today.
00:45:00.340If you love the show, leave us a rating in all of the ratings places.
00:45:05.560And as always, you can pick up a copy or many, many copies of the Book of the Summer,
00:45:11.320The Sicilian Inheritance, wherever you get your books.