Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - How to Communicate Better On and Offline with Charles Duhigg

00:00:00.000 Hello, all. Jo here, and you are listening to Under the Influence.

00:00:11.440 I have a question for you. How good are you at communicating? And I don't just mean at

00:00:18.920 talking, because a lot of us are good at talking. I'm real good at talking. But I would say

00:00:25.200 that when it comes to communicating, I'm probably a 6 out of 10 on a good day. It's one of those

00:00:35.840 things that I could definitely, definitely be better at. And these days, frankly, I think it's

00:00:42.640 something we could all be better at. You know, we spend so much of our lives online. Whether we are

00:00:51.300 emailing, texting, DMing, signaling, blue-skying. There's too many nouns that I can turn into verbs

00:01:00.920 right now. And yet, I think that that method of communication has really eroded how well we

00:01:11.260 actually get through to each other, how well we actually hear each other. Today, we're talking

00:01:19.580 to Charles Duhigg. He's a journalist who's worked at the New York Times, where he won a Pulitzer

00:01:24.680 Prize. You know, big deal. It's an important fancy prize. His latest book is Supercommunicators.

00:01:32.440 It explores the psychology and neuroscience, some really, really, really good geeky neuroscience,

00:01:38.740 you know, the kind that I like, behind how we could all be better at this, how we can actually

00:01:44.220 communicate instead of just talking. What Charles realized is that most super communicators

00:01:50.020 aren't just naturally good at this. They're skills that we can master to be better,

00:01:57.280 to become super communicators ourselves. Communication, especially in these very

00:02:05.060 fraught times, is genuinely a superpower. And frankly, I think we all need to get better at it.

00:02:13.200 So here's Charles.

00:02:21.000 Hello, Charles.

00:02:22.400 I got to tell you, I finished your book and I handed it to my husband, Nick Astor, essentially just saying, here, you could be a better communicator.

00:02:33.960 And I think, why don't you read this book and take some notes and then get back to me and we can workshop that together.

00:02:40.100 And how did he how did he react to that? Did he appreciate that feedback?

00:02:45.840 After 10 years of marriage, he just kind of rolls his eyes at me and says, but then he did he did start start reading it last night.

00:02:56.920 So good. And there's lots of stories in there. There's like a lot of story.

00:03:00.980 There's I mean, the first story is about a CIA officer, right?

00:03:03.840 He's trying to. So maybe for Nick, that's like, yeah, that'll that'll draw him in.

00:03:08.580 Well, we'll see. We'll see. I hope so. I hope so. Because I do think, I think that this book could be required reading for so many people right now. Because one of my biggest pet peeves about the world is that with the rise of so much technology, with social media, with texting, I think we've all gotten worse at communicating with each other.

00:03:32.320 even people who communicate for a living like me like I know that I could be better and so

00:03:39.560 this is something that I want more people to dive into to talk about how can we be better

00:03:45.180 at talking and communicating I feel the same way and I think a lot of it is that you know there was

00:03:50.720 there was a time in our nation's history where people had to practice communicating with each

00:03:56.160 other a lot in fact practice with communicating with people that they didn't agree with

00:04:00.700 because we lived in small communities or we went to churches where not everyone agreed with each

00:04:07.300 other or we belong to the Rotary Club or X or Y or Z. And you're right. One of the things that's

00:04:13.020 happened is that there has been some wonderful things of the digital revolution, right? We can

00:04:18.100 now find our tribe all over the world. But as a result, we can spend literally all of our time

00:04:25.540 just talking to our tribe and not practicing having conversations with our neighbors or with

00:04:31.800 the, you know, the person who lives across town. And I think we've lost something as a result.

00:04:38.180 Yeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, I think it's gotten increasingly hard to have conversations

00:04:44.680 with people who just have different ideas about the world than we do. And an interesting thing

00:04:52.200 happened to me over the weekend. I was doing a book event in upstate New York for Sicilian

00:04:58.760 inheritance, which is, you know, and it's a delicious novel, but it's got feminist undertones

00:05:05.620 and a little bit of taking down the patriarchy. And I was talking to a woman who just bought the 0.87

00:05:11.220 book and that's what I was talking about. And I could tell right off the bat that we had different

00:05:17.520 ideas about about the world i could tell by her face by how her face changed and i thought okay

00:05:23.380 oh wow okay i want i want this woman to read this book uh because i think this is you know

00:05:28.900 the audience that that should be reading it but i am going to have to pivot in my conversation 0.91

00:05:33.460 right this second and it was just an interesting reminder that we don't have nearly enough

00:05:39.040 conversations outside of our political and our value wheelhouse yeah well and i think one of

00:05:45.200 the things that's really interesting is my guess is that you guys had already established some

00:05:49.340 things that you have in common right you're both book lovers you're both book lovers she loves

00:05:53.240 novels she loves mystery she loves adventures but she probably wasn't going to pick up a book that

00:05:58.200 was about women dismantling the patriarchy in both the modern day and a hundred years ago yeah that

00:06:03.700 might not be a natural for her but yes but yes but i think that one of the things that happens

00:06:08.160 is that once we recognize that there's literally no one we agree with all the time on this planet

00:06:14.740 right? Even with our best friends, with our siblings, with our spouse, there's tons of

00:06:18.840 things that we disagree with. And yet we don't let that become a barrier to the relationship.

00:06:23.500 And we don't let that become a barrier to the conversations about those things.

00:06:27.180 Right. Exactly. Yes.

00:06:29.240 What you could have said to this woman is you could have asked, you know, tell me what you

00:06:33.100 think about women in the world. How do you think about yourself as a woman and how you move through

00:06:40.180 the world. And I think if a question like that is asked with genuine curiosity, even if you

00:06:45.000 disagree with each other, you both know that the other person wants to hear you. They want to

00:06:50.940 understand what you're saying. And I think that can be really, really powerful. I think it can,

00:06:57.160 too. I think it can, too. I mean, I think that curiosity is just an incredibly powerful thing,

00:07:03.060 full stop. That, you know, we should have more curiosity about the world, more curiosity about

00:07:07.940 other people and that it is in the asking of these questions that we're genuinely interested

00:07:15.480 in because we're curious about other people that leads to connection and leads to what you call in

00:07:20.860 the book, you know, someone being a super communicator. Yeah, that's exactly right. I think

00:07:25.700 that one of the things that we found, so, and it's worth describing what a super communicator

00:07:29.860 is for anyone listening. I always bury the lead, which is why I'm not allowed to write

00:07:34.740 for newspapers anymore. Totally fine. It's totally fine. So there's actually a great question I can

00:07:39.440 ask that sort of gets at this. If you were having a really bad day and you wanted to call someone

00:07:45.980 who, you know, just talking to them would make you feel better. Do you know who you would call?

00:07:50.700 Like, does that person pop into your mind? Oh, a hundred percent. I've got two. I would call

00:07:53.760 Glynis and I would call Casey. Yes. Okay. Okay. So for you, Glynis and Casey are super communicators,

00:08:00.200 right? They know exactly what kind of question to ask you. They know how, they know what kind

00:08:04.380 of mindset you're in, just from how you describe what's going on in your life, they know how

00:08:09.220 to show you that they're listening and prove to you that they want to learn more and that

00:08:12.280 they want to connect.

00:08:13.100 And you're probably a super communicator back to them.

00:08:16.220 And what's interesting is we all are super communicators at one time or another, right?

00:08:21.680 There are some people who we're all super communicators with.

00:08:25.420 There are some people, however, who can do this consistently, who can do this with anyone.

00:08:29.620 And it is not that they are born with some special skill or that they have the gift of gab or anything like that. It's literally just that they understand that communication is a set of skills. And those same skills that you use with Glynnis and that you use with Casey, you could use them with a stranger on the bus once you recognize that that opportunity exists.

00:08:52.460 And so that's what a super communicator is. A consistent super communicator is someone who tries consistently to connect with the people around them. And as we practice it, it becomes very natural, very automatic, almost like a habit.

00:09:07.240 Why did you want to research super communicators? And I know that, you know, a lot of times with journalists, with authors, we pursue things because we feel like we're missing something.

00:09:19.440 Yeah, absolutely. No, that's exactly what it was for me. You know, I had written this book,

00:09:24.420 The Power of Habit, about the science of habit formation. And I felt like I had learned a lot

00:09:30.680 and spoken to a lot of people with that. But when we change habits, we're really focused on

00:09:35.180 ourselves. And I found that I had fallen into this bad pattern with my wife, which is that

00:09:40.020 sometimes I would come home from work. I was working at the New York Times at that point.

00:09:44.160 And I would, you know, complain about my day and I'd say, you know, my boss doesn't appreciate me

00:09:48.740 and my coworkers don't realize what a genius I am.

00:09:51.520 It's so hard when your genius is not recognized.

00:09:54.940 It's tough. Yeah, it's true.

00:09:56.020 It's true. 0.99

00:09:56.860 And my wife very reasonably would offer me some good advice.

00:10:00.500 She would say something like, 1.00

00:10:01.760 oh, why don't you take your boss out to lunch 0.91

00:10:03.500 and you guys can get to know each other a little bit better.

00:10:07.100 And instead of being able to hear what she was saying to me,

00:10:10.200 I would get even more upset.

00:10:11.520 And I would say, you know, like, why aren't you supporting me?

00:10:13.880 You're supposed to be on my side.

00:10:15.180 It's not my fault. It's his fault.

00:10:17.220 And then she would get upset because I was attacking her for giving me good advice.

00:10:21.000 I think this is a pattern that's recognizable to literally anyone in a relationship, right?

00:10:25.280 Where one person just wants to complain and the other person tries to solve their problem

00:10:29.680 and they don't appreciate it.

00:10:31.480 Yes, yes, yes.

00:10:33.020 Yeah.

00:10:33.560 And so I went to these researchers and I asked them, like, what's going on?

00:10:36.020 Why do I keep falling into this pattern?

00:10:39.200 And they said, well, look, we're really glad you showed up because we're actually living

00:10:42.680 through this golden age of understanding communication.

00:10:44.820 And one of the things that we've learned is that when we have a discussion, we tend to assume that that discussion is about one thing, right?

00:10:53.740 Like we're talking about tomorrow day or we're going to go on vacation next year.

00:10:57.900 But actually, they said, when we look at people's brains when they're having that discussion, what we see is that every discussion is made up of different kinds of conversations.

00:11:06.020 And in general, these kinds of conversations, they fall into one of three buckets.

00:11:08.860 There's these practical conversations where we're solving problems together or making plans.

00:11:12.940 But then there's emotional conversations where I tell you what I'm feeling and I don't want

00:11:16.160 you to solve my feelings.

00:11:17.620 I want you to empathize.

00:11:19.640 And then there's social conversations about how we relate to each other and society and

00:11:23.540 the identities that are important to us.

00:11:25.700 And they said, if you're having different kinds of conversations at the same moment,

00:11:30.060 you literally can't hear each other fully.

00:11:31.940 You definitely can't connect with each other.

00:11:34.840 But if you're having the same kind of conversation, what's known in psychology is the matching

00:11:38.780 principle then even if you disagree with each other you tend to feel connected and so i thought

00:11:45.220 that was really really interesting and it's been really helpful to me in my own life yeah reading

00:11:50.480 that was really helpful to me because it it just made me take a step back and realize that i am

00:11:58.080 a fixer I'm not necessarily the best listener or empathizer I am the okay we're gonna do this

00:12:09.880 this and this and I'm gonna fix I'm gonna fix this problem for you when most times people just

00:12:17.060 want to feel heard and so when you asked me who I would call it's because Glynis and Casey are such

00:12:25.560 good listeners and because they then ask me the questions that show me they want to hear more

00:12:33.880 and that brings out more from me whereas i think that i do i don't do myself any services by by

00:12:44.600 being the person that's like okie dokie we are going to solve all of your problems and take all

00:12:48.980 of the action right now right right and and mike and there's actually a science to what they're

00:12:53.860 doing when they when they do that with you, right? Like, yes, yes. Wait, I want I want you to I want

00:12:58.820 you to explain the science because I found it so interesting that I it's it's highlighted in my

00:13:04.220 copy of your book. But let's take a quick break. And when we get back, I want you to explain the

00:13:08.780 science behind this to me okay we are back talking super communicators there's a science behind

00:13:24.780 what happens when when someone is is a super communicator when the two are when the two of

00:13:31.840 you are on the same wavelength and there you have you have these really helpful pictures in the book

00:13:36.220 actually of people people's heads with wavelengths in them and sometimes they're the same and

00:13:43.480 sometimes they're different sometimes they're different yeah i'm like i actually i really

00:13:46.480 appreciate this graphic so so one of the things that the researchers have found is that when you

00:13:51.860 and i are in a good conversation like this conversation now our bodies and our brains

00:13:56.060 start to change so without us realizing it our the our breath rate has started to match each other

00:14:03.120 And as a result, our heart rate has started to match each other.

00:14:07.040 What's interesting is that even though we're separated by distance, because we're doing

00:14:10.320 this over the internet, the dilation of our pupils will become more and more similar.

00:14:16.740 And most importantly, the activity in our side, our brain, if we could look at both

00:14:20.280 of our brains during this conversation, what we would see is that the activity inside our

00:14:23.440 brain is getting more and more similar to each other.

00:14:25.760 It's becoming synchronized.

00:14:27.240 And within neuroscience, this is known as neural entrainment.

00:14:31.620 And it's kind of the goal of communication.

00:14:34.880 And it makes sense because if I describe an emotion to you, you actually feel that emotion

00:14:38.840 a little bit, right?

00:14:39.600 Or if I tell you about an idea, you experience that idea a little bit.

00:14:42.960 And so as our brains become synchronized, not only do we understand each other better,

00:14:47.440 but we feel closer to each other.

00:14:50.160 And so the question becomes, how do we do that?

00:14:53.480 And you actually mentioned one of the things, which is we often do it by asking questions,

00:14:59.340 but only some kind of questions are powerful. Let me ask you, when you're talking to your

00:15:03.240 friends, what are the questions like that they ask you?

00:15:09.580 I would say the most

00:15:11.560 powerful one is the

00:15:14.520 how did that make you feel?

00:15:19.380 Right. Right. So what's interesting is that

00:15:23.120 that's what's known as a deep question, right? Surface questions often

00:15:27.300 ask us about the facts of our life. You know, okay, so what did you have for breakfast this

00:15:32.420 morning? How did you get to work yesterday? What did your boss say to you? But deep questions ask

00:15:38.380 us how we feel about our life. When he said that, how did that make you feel? Why do you think it

00:15:46.340 was important for you to say that thing back? What's going on in your head? Tell me how to make

00:15:51.880 sense of how you make sense of this situation. Because when we ask that question, and those are

00:15:57.980 easy questions to ask, what we're actually doing is not always easy questions to answer.

00:16:03.560 That's true. That's true. But there, but what we're really doing is we're asking someone,

00:16:08.460 tell me how you see the world. Like, I want to understand you. And, and the thing is that

00:16:13.660 this name deep questions that can be kind of intimidating, but like, it's as simple,

00:16:17.920 like if you meet a doctor at a party, instead of saying, you know, oh, what hospital do you work

00:16:22.980 at? You could ask, oh, what made you decide to go to medical school? Right? That second question

00:16:28.260 is a deep question. And what it does is it invites them to tell us what they care about.

00:16:32.820 Deep questions ask about our values, our beliefs, and our experiences. And they're magical.

00:16:39.440 Well, and I think they show more of a curiosity, too. Yeah, exactly.

00:16:43.920 One of my biggest pet peeves is always the conversation that begins with, what do you do?

00:16:50.560 When I spent the summer in Italy doing book stuff, I loved that one of the biggest conversation starters was, what did you have for lunch?

00:17:04.620 Oh, that's amazing.

00:17:06.300 Right?

00:17:07.100 Because it opened so many different doors. 0.96

00:17:10.260 it opened doors to be like who do you eat lunch with because you know italians often eat a big

00:17:16.760 lunch they they leave work they leave school to go to go have a lunch uh my one italian friend 0.99

00:17:23.000 told me that having lunch at her desk at her computer is just the most disgusting idea to her 1.00

00:17:29.200 possible and i was like then i am gross i am so gross to you the lady on the other hand i 0.98

00:17:37.260 kind of want to live in Italy now totally exactly but it like it was such an opener to

00:17:42.960 what did you eat which I love hearing what people ate who did you eat with and also kind of how

00:17:49.460 do you live your life or here's the other interesting thing sometimes people like didn't

00:17:56.460 get a chance to have a robust lunch experience and then that was an entryway into well what's

00:18:01.800 wrong? What's what's going on with you that you weren't able to have? Yeah. Yeah. Are you doing

00:18:08.080 all right? And to your point about it's very American to oftentimes to ask people what they

00:18:13.620 do for a living. Right. Because because whereas Italians might define a lot of themselves through

00:18:18.800 their meal experiences, a lot of Americans define themselves through their work experiences. And

00:18:23.340 that's OK. Like, I love my work. I love talking about my work. But I think what's important is

00:18:27.820 that once you ask like you know oh what do you do for a living to ask that deep question like

00:18:31.900 oh did you always want to do that like did you dream of doing that when you're a kid

00:18:35.420 or like do you even are you glad that you do that do you feel like that was like did you make a

00:18:40.940 like do you feel like going to law school and becoming a lawyer like was that the right choice

00:18:44.440 for you like what we're really asking then is who are you like how do you see the world whether

00:18:50.780 it's what you had for lunch or what you do for a living or what part of town you live in

00:18:56.020 all of or even what your hobbies are all all of those with the right follow-up question become

00:19:02.200 I'm really curious about you I want to understand you tell me about your values and your beliefs

00:19:07.400 and your experiences and then that makes it really natural for me to share my own experiences with

00:19:13.700 you in return and it's in the sharing you write in the book where a lot of kind of the super

00:19:21.520 communicating magic happens i do you you are so good at at distilling a lot of this information

00:19:29.360 by rooting it in stories and i do love the opening story about a cia or he's an fbi agent right

00:19:37.100 right right there's a couple of them there's one about an fbi agent one about a cia yeah there's

00:19:41.240 an fbi there's a cia people people who you know negotiate for a living right but um you've got

00:19:46.960 the FBI agent and everyone's like, why is he so good at this? Like, what is it about this person?

00:19:51.920 And it's because he's very good. Then you ask the question, but you also share something about

00:19:57.580 yourself. You know, I, oh, I had had a family member who, who also passed away recently. And

00:20:04.840 so it's, it's that point of connections. How important is the sharing a little bit about

00:20:10.340 yourself? The sharing's really, really important. And, and within psychology, it's known as

00:20:13.960 reciprocal authenticity, um, that when you reciprocate someone's vulnerability or you

00:20:18.860 reciprocate their authenticity, that you will automatically feel closer to each other with

00:20:23.740 one caveat, which is, are you sharing to actually share or are you sharing to steal the spotlight?

00:20:31.620 Right. So if somebody says, you know, last week was really rough. My, my, um, my aunt passed away.

00:20:37.760 If someone says, Oh, I know exactly what that's like. I, you know, I had a dog that died seven

00:20:41.640 years ago. And I still think about that daughter. Like that's, that's not me sharing because I want

00:20:47.520 to comfort you. That's me sharing because I want to steal the spotlight. I want to shine it on

00:20:51.940 myself. And so one of the things that's really important is that when we share, we share in a

00:20:57.880 way that's authentic, that, that we hope genuinely might provide some solace to the other person or

00:21:04.740 writes comfort or humor to them, something that, that aligns where they've shared something

00:21:12.340 genuine with us and we want to share something genuine with them, which oftentimes means it has

00:21:16.720 to be authentically vulnerable, right? Not something that's kind of a humble brag, not

00:21:21.700 something that's like, I'm vulnerable because I think that you're going to be attracted to it,

00:21:26.520 but rather I want to share something with me to respect and honor the fact that you just shared

00:21:31.760 that I want to share something with you to honor that you just shared with me.

00:21:37.140 Right. Right. And I do think there's a lot of humble bragging going on when we when we when

00:21:44.140 we share. It can happen. It can happen particularly online. Particularly online. I'm so honored and

00:21:51.700 humbled to announce that I've been recently selected to win this prize. Right. It's kind

00:21:56.980 of like, are you really humbled if you're that humbled? Like, do you think you'd be announcing

00:22:00.460 it online are you announcing it i know i know and i've done it okay i've done it oh my gosh i'm so

00:22:08.760 honored to have made this list of books like okay yes yes but at the same time it's not bad

00:22:16.240 to be authentic and to say i'm really excited like i'm really excited i made this list or like i feel

00:22:23.060 so i feel so good about this because like i worked so hard on this book and it's and it and it's just

00:22:28.700 nice to be recognized this is actually a better way of saying this yes like yeah this was hard

00:22:32.760 and i do this in a vacuum and this made me feel better about it the bra right the bragging isn't

00:22:38.600 the bad part it's the humble bragging that's the bad part if we brag and we're authentic about it

00:22:43.920 usually the people around us are excited for us they want to encourage us they're happy for us

00:22:49.140 it's all about authenticity and that's really really important yeah and so

00:22:54.420 So one of one of the things that my old boss, when I first started becoming a gossip columnist, which was a job that I was not meant to have because I knew nothing about celebrities.

00:23:06.360 I really I was an economics major.

00:23:10.100 I was not not not that that up on the pop cultures, but I was a reporter and I was like, you know what?

00:23:16.480 I can report on anything.

00:23:17.840 but the give and take in the celebrity economy is so much conversation and so my editor always said

00:23:26.020 you have to give a little bit of yourself if you ever want to get something in return oh that's

00:23:30.520 interesting that's really interesting and i was thinking about that a lot when when i was when i

00:23:35.600 was reading your book um because it doesn't work when what you're giving is inauthentic right either

00:23:42.100 um and so it's kind of a fine line to think about i can become a better communicator by

00:23:49.960 learning these skills but also how do i maintain my authentic self that's exactly right and it's

00:23:56.900 interesting you mentioned that there's there's a chapter in the book about the um the making of the

00:24:00.420 big bang theory the tv sitcom oh i want to i want to talk about that chapter yeah well and it was

00:24:05.800 actually a flop when it first came out right the first they shot a pilot it did not succeed at all

00:24:10.100 And it went on to become the most popular TV show in history.

00:24:13.360 And, and a number of researchers have looked at it and they've shown that if you, if you

00:24:17.200 turn off the volume and you watch the episodes, you can tell what every single character is

00:24:22.760 thinking and feeling, right?

00:24:24.500 They show through their expressions, through their nonverbal communication, through the,

00:24:30.160 the gestures that they make and the sounds that aren't words, you can, you can tell what

00:24:35.020 they're thinking and feeling.

00:24:35.660 And the reason why is because they are, they are letting their bodies be authentic to what

00:24:42.980 they're feeling.

00:24:44.260 So if they're feeling sad, they show that sadness.

00:24:47.420 If they're feeling happy, they show that happiness.

00:24:49.860 And it's the authenticity that makes us like them as characters.

00:24:53.520 It's not, it's not the jokes that they tell.

00:24:56.160 It's not, it's not even the words that come out of their mouth.

00:24:58.520 Cause sometimes the words that come out of their mouth are at odds with what they're

00:25:01.420 actually feeling, right?

00:25:02.400 They're telling someone, I hate you when I actually love you.

00:25:04.820 But we know that they love them because they're being authentic in how they act.

00:25:10.760 And that's really, really important.

00:25:12.460 And we can do the same thing when we're in conversations with other people.

00:25:17.000 I want to know how we can do the same thing in conversations with other people, both in

00:25:21.900 person and online.

00:25:23.240 But let's do it after a quick break.

00:25:32.980 Okay, we're back.

00:25:34.820 What you said about the Big Bang Theory and what you wrote in Super Communicators was so interesting to me because it's a show that I've never particularly liked, but I've watched it on many a plane because it's the only thing available.

00:25:51.720 And planes for me are an interesting bellwether because I'm like, I just want something to pass the time and be kind of comforting.

00:25:58.740 And I can also, you know, wipe a kid's nose or give them a puke bag while I'm watching this and nothing's going to change.

00:26:07.660 The show is weirdly comforting, despite the fact that I don't actually like it.

00:26:11.160 So everything you said about it makes sense to me.

00:26:14.680 Well, one of the things you'll notice when you're watching that show, and there's actually a lesson in this for...

00:26:20.740 us, the people who aren't on television shows, is you'll notice that people oftentimes,

00:26:27.080 the characters oftentimes prove they are listening to each other in very, very almost ostentatious

00:26:32.440 ways, right? They will ask a follow-up question. They will clearly be making eye contact with the

00:26:39.380 person as they're speaking. They will furrow their brow and show through expressions that

00:26:44.360 they're following along. They'll oftentimes, without us realizing it, repeat back what the

00:26:48.500 person said to prove that they were paying attention. And within neuroscience and psychology,

00:26:56.820 this is actually known as looping for understanding. And what it gets at is that

00:27:00.700 oftentimes just listening to someone is not enough. Oftentimes we have to prove to them

00:27:07.000 that we're listening to them. And when we see characters do this, it feels very comforting to

00:27:10.400 us because we know how it feels. And so one of the things that they teach like at Harvard and

00:27:15.880 Stanford and all these other fancy schools is that when you're talking to someone about something

00:27:21.580 that could be controversial, it could be conflict, right? You disagree with each other or it's a

00:27:26.660 tough conversation. You should do this thing, these three steps that are known as looping

00:27:31.420 for understanding. The first step is you should ask a question, and preferably a deep question.

00:27:36.820 Second of all, once the person answers that question, you should try and repeat back in

00:27:40.820 your own words, which you heard them say. And the goal here is not mimicry, right? Because

00:27:45.360 mimicry feels inauthentic the goal here is to like prove to them oh i i hear what you're saying

00:27:51.480 and and this is probably what happens when you're talking to your friends right this is what happens

00:27:56.080 on the tv screen and these first two steps these are fairly intuitive to most folks we actually

00:28:01.200 do these pretty automatically it's a third step that i always forget which is once you have

00:28:07.160 repeated back what you heard the person say ask them ask them if you got it right so like you know

00:28:11.900 did I hear you correctly? Because what we're actually doing in that moment is we're asking

00:28:16.640 for permission to acknowledge that we were listening. And when they acknowledge that we're

00:28:22.280 listening, they become more likely to listen to us in return. So like when you're in a fight with

00:28:28.160 your husband or I'm in a fight with my wife, if we say, here's what I hear you saying, did I get

00:28:33.720 that right? That doesn't mean that we have to agree with each other. It doesn't mean that the

00:28:38.600 fight magically disappears. But it means that they believe that we are actually paying attention,

00:28:43.580 that we are listening. And they, in an act of reciprocity, will try and understand and listen

00:28:50.080 to us in return. And even if we walk away from that fight still disagreeing with each other,

00:28:57.180 we will feel connected to each other. We will feel like the other person wants to understand.

00:29:01.480 And that's incredibly powerful. Right. Right. And does set the basis,

00:29:06.320 you know, for moving forward, I think, with the next conversation, right?

00:29:11.540 Yeah, absolutely.

00:29:12.560 Yeah.

00:29:12.760 Absolutely.

00:29:14.260 Yeah.

00:29:14.980 It makes a big difference.

00:29:16.400 It makes a big difference.

00:29:17.980 How has doing this research changed you?

00:29:22.220 How has it changed your interactions with your family and with the people you work with?

00:29:29.140 Yeah.

00:29:29.900 So one of the things that my wife and I do now is when I come home and I complain about 0.68

00:29:35.120 my day, she does not give me advice right away. What she often says is she says, do you want me

00:29:40.640 to help you brainstorm solutions or do you just need to get this off your chest? Right. In other

00:29:45.840 words, do you want to have a practical conversation or do you want to have an emotional conversation?

00:29:49.900 And that's often all it takes for us to be get aligned. Cause I can say like, no, no, no,

00:29:53.540 I just need to complain about this. You don't have to solve it for me or, or, or I do want to solve

00:29:57.760 it. Like, like, can we brainstorm some solutions together? And so one of the things that, um,

00:30:03.160 Actually, they teach teachers to do this in schools by saying, you know, if a student comes up and they want to have a meaningful conversation with you, start the conversation by asking, do you want to be helped?

00:30:13.100 Do you want to be hugged or do you want to be heard?

00:30:16.120 Which are the three kinds of conversations, the emotional, the practical, the emotional, and the social.

00:30:21.600 And the thing is, if anyone listening with young kids at home, try this.

00:30:25.940 What you'll find is your kids can tell you right away what they want, right?

00:30:28.860 They know what kind of conversation they need to have right now.

00:30:33.160 And so that's one of the big changes. It was with my wife, with my kids. We spend a lot of time saying, like, what kind of conversation do you need to have right now? And I want to match you, or I want to invite you to match me. And that makes things so much easier.

00:30:49.580 Right, right. And in the workplace, you probably can no longer say, would you like a hug?

00:30:54.520 That's exactly right. That's exactly right. You can't say, they might call it HR if you say, would you like a hug?

00:30:58.820 Right. But what you can't do is you can ask one of those deep questions, right? You can ask a

00:31:03.860 question like, okay, so I understand that you're upset. Tell me what this means to you. Like,

00:31:09.020 what is it about this that, that gets under your skin so much? Right. That's, that's very similar

00:31:14.580 to saying like, look, is this, is this something that bothers you emotionally? Is we should have

00:31:18.880 an emotional conversation or is this practical? Like you're just having problems like filing

00:31:22.660 your expenses because we're using this, this system. That's a practical conversation. We can

00:31:27.280 figure out a solution or is it that like you feel like jim is disrespecting you and and as a result

00:31:34.000 it's not really like an emotional thing it's that it's that you don't feel connected to this guy

00:31:39.120 you don't feel like you can work together really effectively so let's talk about that how do you

00:31:43.740 guys get in sync with each other when we ask those deep questions we we get a chance to see someone's

00:31:50.580 mindset and when we understand their mindset we know how to talk to them well and i think what

00:31:56.140 we're really getting at is what is important to you right in this moment yeah yeah which what is

00:32:03.900 not always it's not always what we lead with we don't we come home you're like oh my gosh i can't

00:32:09.320 stand so and so on the pta board because they did this and get into the crux of but why does this

00:32:15.700 matter to you why is this getting you the way that you are right now that's exactly right that's

00:32:22.040 exactly right what what is going on why is this important to you every deep question at its core

00:32:29.260 is what do you make of this like how does how does how do you think about this thing we're

00:32:36.680 discussing in the context of who you are and the thing is that when we feel seen that way

00:32:42.220 it feels amazing right particularly if then then they prove that they're listening they ask follow

00:32:47.840 up questions. Maybe they repeat back what we said and ask if they got it right. They share something

00:32:52.940 of themselves that it's meant to help us understand them. In those moments, we feel

00:33:00.460 seen. And that does not mean that we have to agree with each other. If you come home from the PTA

00:33:03.680 meeting and your husband asks you, why does it bother you so much that this woman keeps asking

00:33:09.180 these questions? It doesn't mean he has to be like, honey, you're exactly right. That woman is

00:33:13.820 awful, right? Right. I do like it when we hate the same people. I just like it. Exactly. He might 1.00

00:33:20.620 very well say, honey, I think you're kind of overreacting. But the fact that you guys,

00:33:25.540 that he asked those questions, that he's trying to understand where you're coming from, that he's

00:33:29.460 proving to you that he's listening, even if you still disagree with each other, you will feel

00:33:34.080 closer to each other. You will feel connected. Yes. Yes. I think that's true. I think that's

00:33:39.620 True. My one last question is because we do so much of our communicating digitally over, it's either email, text, or we're commenting on people's posts on social media, what are some of the most effective tips you found for authentically communicating in online communications?

00:34:02.940 Yeah, it's a great question. And we actually, in the book, there's a whole list of rules because there's been a lot of research done on, on what kinds of habits work best and what kinds of mediums. So, so I think the best way of describing this is to, there's this really interesting work that was done that looked at when telephones first became popular about, about a hundred years ago.

00:34:24.700 there were all these articles that appeared that said no one will ever be able to have a real

00:34:28.620 conversation on the phone because up till that point everyone had had conversations face-to-face

00:34:34.120 for the most part and what's interesting is that for the first 15 years after phones become popular

00:34:38.960 those studies are right like if you look at transcripts of people having early telephone

00:34:43.600 conversations they didn't know how to use them they used them like telegrams they would telephone

00:34:48.340 up the grocer and say here's my stop here's my order and then hang up the phone and then

00:34:53.260 eventually we learned how to use phones, right? By the time you and I and everyone listening was in

00:34:57.520 middle school, we could talk for seven hours a night on the phone. It was like the most important

00:35:01.780 conversations of our life. So long. What were we talking about? Oh my God. And now that I look at

00:35:07.760 my kids' texts, they're so boring. They were the most boring conversations on earth. We just thought

00:35:12.440 we were just entranced by them at the time. So what changed? It's that people learned that there

00:35:18.160 are certain rules for speaking on the phone. And we still know those rules, even if we don't

00:35:22.160 consciously know them. When you're talking on the phone, you will on average over enunciate your

00:35:28.140 words by about 30%. You will put about a quarter more emotion into your voice than if you were

00:35:35.900 talking to someone face to face because you know that they can't see you. We learned the rules for

00:35:40.560 phone conversations. Now, the thing is for digital conversations, there are other rules and our kids

00:35:47.860 know them because our kids have grown up with this. But for those of us who didn't grow up with

00:35:51.900 that we have to think about those rules.

00:35:53.160 We have to really remind ourselves.

00:35:54.580 We have to remind ourselves that if I send someone a text,

00:36:00.040 like it's different from an email, right?

00:36:03.000 Like in an email, I can kind of like pace it out

00:36:05.120 and a text that's going to seem brusque.

00:36:07.080 But then in an email, if I say something sarcastic,

00:36:10.600 they might not know that I'm being sarcastic.

00:36:13.420 No one ever knows you're being sarcastic in an email.

00:36:16.320 Right, sarcasm is something that comes through.

00:36:17.840 So like in an email, I shouldn't be sarcastic,

00:36:20.280 but if I call you on the phone, it's okay to be sarcastic. And there are some basic principles,

00:36:25.700 which is that we know that for online digital communication, if just one person is being just

00:36:33.460 even the smallest amount of polite, if they're saying like, please and thank you, it changes the

00:36:39.040 entire conversation. Like we've seen this in study after study that you shouldn't be sarcastic

00:36:44.560 online you if you literally just say please and thank you if you say if you remind people of your

00:36:50.700 goals which is look my goal here is I really want to understand what you have to say about this

00:36:55.420 because I disagree with you but I want to understand your perspective that's really

00:36:59.040 really powerful and effective and there's about 15 of these things and we list them in the book

00:37:03.780 things that like different forms of communication different mediums reward for us and it's just a

00:37:11.700 of reminding ourselves of them right right yeah because there's because there are just so many

00:37:17.160 ways that we're communicating now yeah at this point um and the rules are different i think for

00:37:23.380 all of them to be absolutely and we tend sometimes we tend to right we're in a big hurry and so we

00:37:29.600 type out a text to someone and we kind of type it with the same same frame of mind that we would

00:37:34.000 send an email yes or that we would walk out the door and be like hey go to the grocery store 0.99

00:37:38.720 But if I just text, go to the grocery store, I sound like a jerk. 0.98

00:37:42.820 Yeah, your husband's like, okay, boss, what else do you want me to do? 0.99

00:37:47.160 Yeah, exactly.

00:37:48.380 But if I'm walking in there, I'll be like, hey, go to the grocery store.

00:37:52.060 Different, different.

00:37:53.600 Absolutely different.

00:37:54.820 And when we get into trouble is when we forget to remind ourselves of those rules.

00:37:58.720 But just taking like literally half a second and being like, okay, a text is different from an email.

00:38:03.500 It's different from talking to someone face to face.

00:38:05.540 That's all it usually takes for us to remember.

00:38:07.600 Right, right.

00:38:08.720 Exactly. Exactly. The two big things, I took away so much from your book. Like I said, I gave it to Nick Astor. We're going to do a book club of two people with it. But it's that mindfulness, that level of mindfulness of thinking about how you're communicating going into a situation and also just keeping the curiosity, keeping that curiosity strong. And it's a muscle. You have to keep practicing having it.

00:38:33.520 That's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. And I think the one other thing I'd add on top of that, but this is actually a subset of what you just said, is show the other person that you want to connect with them. Right? Like, we don't oftentimes say in a conversation, like, I really want to understand this. Will you share it with me? Or like, look, I really, I want to feel closer to you. Like, tell me what I need to know about you. Because that can seem a little weird. And there's easier ways to do it.

00:38:58.000 right follow-up questions like express the same thing sharing something about ourself can often

00:39:04.300 express that repeating back this looping for understanding can express i want to connect

00:39:08.720 with you but the first and most important step of connection is showing that you want to connect

00:39:14.860 and that's what curiosity does that's what having thinking about what the conversations

00:39:19.000 what how you want the conversation to go does it shows that other person this exchange is

00:39:23.900 important to me like i want to i want to invest in that this matters and you matter and i think

00:39:29.140 we want that more than ever right now we want to know that we matter absolutely i agree charles

00:39:35.340 tell everyone where they can find you in this wonderful absolutely absolutely so it's super

00:39:40.220 communicators by charles duhigg it's it's available on amazon and burns and nobles and most importantly

00:39:45.060 your local bookstore your local bookstore copies of it as does your library if you want to check

00:39:50.920 it out um and if you want to find me personally uh if you just google the power of habit or

00:39:56.180 super communicators i'll come up but also my website is charlesduhigg.com d-u-h-i-g-g

00:40:02.300 and my email address is on there and i actually um read and reply to every email i get from a

00:40:07.140 reader so so um yeah you're gonna be getting a lot of notes my oh and you have a sub stack you

00:40:14.080 have to talk about the sub stack yes the science of better so yeah if you look on sub stack the

00:40:18.500 Science at Better is my newsletter with advice from science about how to get better.

00:40:23.860 I love it.

00:40:24.440 I love it.

00:40:24.880 Thank you so much for being here today.

00:40:26.580 Thank you for having me.

00:40:27.720 This has been so much fun.

00:40:29.100 And that is all we have for today.

00:40:30.680 Thank you so much for being here with us.

00:40:33.580 I'm going to try out all of my brand new super communicating skills and then go take over the world.

00:40:40.420 As always, my favorite public service announcement, go order yourself.

00:40:44.480 Everyone is lying to you.

00:40:45.560 Hit order right now, and then it's going to be a wonderful surprise for yourselves

00:40:49.140 in the middle of summer vacation, which is exactly when you deserve a surprise for yourself.

00:40:54.760 Go have a great rest of your day. Another thing to do, text one of your friends right now

00:40:58.660 that she's fucking awesome. Nothing else, just you're fucking awesome. You are too. Bye. 0.99

00:41:15.560 We'll see you next time.

00:41:45.560 Thank you.

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - February 25, 2025

How to Communicate Better On and Offline with Charles Duhigg

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