Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - It’s Time For A Reckoning

00:00:00.000 are there any black influencers that have actually been paid for their labor for 1.00

00:00:06.400 I mean I'm feeling a little spicy today I was contacted by them and they offered to pay me

00:00:11.600 $15 I am female biracial I have 90,000 followers on TikTok and was approached by to create four

00:00:21.840 TikTok videos for them per month I told them my rate is $1,500 they told me they only wanted

00:00:28.960 to do it in exchange for clothes. I'm a 20-year-old Black content creator on TikTok. I have 95,000

00:00:35.960 followers and my engagement rate is 23%. After reading through this account, I realized that

00:00:41.260 I've been underselling myself completely. It's truly opened my eyes. So there's this Instagram

00:00:48.360 account. It's called Influencer Pay Gap, and it exists to give a little transparency about what

00:00:54.760 influencers make. But it's also there to document the pay gap between white influencers and

00:00:59.920 influencers of color. What you just heard are posts from the account. Most of the submissions

00:01:05.140 are anonymous, so we had some friends read them. This account is one of the most eye-opening things

00:01:10.460 that I've discovered while making this podcast. The micro-influencer Danya Naguera, who you heard

00:01:15.880 from in previous episodes, she's the first one who told me about it. Any person of color noticed

00:01:23.040 So they were getting paid less as opposed to just a regular, a white influencer. 0.92

00:01:28.480 In the influencer industry, women mostly make more than men. 1.00

00:01:32.060 But there's still a pretty steep racial pay gap. 0.98

00:01:35.900 Like I said, Dania was among the first to bring this up to me.

00:01:39.140 But she certainly wasn't the last. 1.00

00:01:42.080 One thing that we've always noticed that there's some influencers of color who their quality of content are just crazy. 1.00

00:01:51.460 It's insane. It's perfect. 1.00

00:01:52.740 Like the picture quality, like they're out there paying photographers.

00:01:56.060 They're doing the most as opposed to just a regular influencer. 0.91

00:02:00.980 They will just take a shot in their house with their dog and a nice background, but they will get paid probably $500 for that post as opposed to maybe $100 for a Black influencer. 0.60

00:02:11.740 What's also interesting to me that a couple of times you've used the word regular influencer instead of just white influencer. 0.68

00:02:18.380 Influencing does feel like influencing so white.

00:02:22.000 the use of language is so interesting yeah even after i said it i was thinking in my mind i'm like

00:02:29.040 why did i say regular it just seems so normal because even outside of the influencing industry

00:02:35.080 that's what's normal like as a beauty for everything lifestyle they're just

00:02:40.320 regular but everyone else is just we're just different you know and it's not the standard

00:02:46.320 social media is a reflection of our lives of the world we live in that has never been more true to

00:02:54.880 me than reporting this podcast and hearing from all of you who are listening to it in real time

00:02:59.520 the people we interact with the language we use it's all just a version of what we do in real

00:03:04.800 life it shouldn't come as a surprise that the systemic issues that exist in our world in

00:03:09.880 everyday life also bleed into the influencer space. But they do. Donya provides just one

00:03:17.180 example of this. Racial inequality is embedded into the influencer space, and it weighs so heavily

00:03:23.940 on influencers of color. Other parts of our world, all of the other parts that contributed to the

00:03:30.740 shitstorm of a dumpster fire that was 2020, are present too. Politics, rage, misogyny, conspiracy 0.66

00:03:38.260 theories. Those are all things that find their way online and can make our feeds a dark, dark place.

00:03:48.380 I'm Jo Piazza, and the whole goddamn world is under the influence. 0.97

00:04:02.820 Chapter 8. It's time for a reckoning. 0.99

00:04:08.260 So, in the week between our last episode and now, a lot has happened in the world.

00:04:15.360 There was a major traffic jam in the Suez Canal, the Mars rover Curiosity took a selfie,

00:04:20.540 and one other big thing that you might have heard about.

00:04:25.620 Yeah, so last week, Chrissy Teigen in, you know, a classic Chrissy-toned, very earnest and cheeky

00:04:35.960 9 tweet thread announced that she was going to be permanently leaving Twitter. That is MSNBC

00:04:42.300 columnist Emma Gray. She covered the news of Chrissy leaving Twitter. It was big news. And

00:04:48.400 Chrissy happened to leave Twitter the same exact week that we ran our episode, Burning Cats,

00:04:53.860 about how terrible it is to be a woman on social media. Chrissy, are you listening?

00:04:59.340 Anyway, I asked Emma why the world cares so much about Chrissy Teigen leaving Twitter. 1.00

00:05:04.820 You know, Chrissy Teigen has been, I think, referred to in a lot of media posts as like the unofficial queen of Twitter. 1.00

00:05:14.580 She's like the clapback queen. 0.99

00:05:16.680 She always has like a witty one liner.

00:05:19.740 And suddenly we come to find that she is tired and has been sort of fundamentally depleted by spending so much energy answering so many people 100% of the time on the internet.

00:05:40.020 And I think Twitter especially can be a really easy breeding ground for harassment.

00:05:48.660 And Chrissy is just kind of like, I'm out.

00:05:52.080 And I think that a lot of very online people, especially very online women, and particularly

00:06:00.080 women of color, who I think get kind of the lion's share of the most severe negative feedback

00:06:08.740 on a platform like Twitter are just feeling fundamentally, existentially exhausted.

00:06:16.620 I think that the truth is that no matter who you are, no matter what your platform is,

00:06:24.340 when you are sort of hit, as she put it, I think when you are taking so many two follower count 0.97

00:06:33.840 punches um over time you become bruised and that is just like fucking draining 0.96

00:06:40.540 yeah it's fucking draining and it's and we know that it's also more draining because there's so 0.99

00:06:47.440 much more hate directed against women of color on social media um you know chrissy's mixed race 0.99

00:06:53.900 and i feel the women of color that i've talked to who are influencers who are who put all of

00:06:59.980 their lives on social media, just tell me that they feel even more attacked and more attacked

00:07:05.240 from different sides and from different kinds of people and that the hate is just so heavy

00:07:09.600 and weighs on them. Have you seen this at all in your reporting? Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know,

00:07:15.000 black women, I think are 84% more likely than white women to be tagged into an abusive tweet. 0.97

00:07:23.440 And white women get quite a lot of hatred on the internet. So when you're compounding 0.77

00:07:28.940 misogyny with racism and obviously it's not just black women it's all women of color

00:07:34.040 the hate and the misogyny heaped on women of color on social media is just the tip of the

00:07:42.620 iceberg of the systemic racism that occurs on social media just the tip creators of color 1.00

00:07:49.560 black creators they face a way way steeper uphill battle to break into the world of influencing

00:07:55.420 and to make the money they deserve from creating. 1.00

00:07:59.860 A Black tax is like an extra tax or weight that Black people have to carry 0.99

00:08:05.720 simply because we're Black when it comes to just opportunities in general, 0.97

00:08:10.680 but specifically for employment opportunities. 0.99

00:08:13.820 That is Tina Meeks. 1.00

00:08:16.020 She's a creator and a goddamn goddess, 1.00

00:08:18.220 and she runs the Her Life Sparkles Instagram account. 0.99

00:08:21.520 A lot of times when people talk about it, 0.88

00:08:23.480 they think about it in terms of Black men, but Black women are even lower on the totem pole

00:08:28.360 than Black men in a lot of situations when it comes to opportunity to advancement or pay

00:08:34.320 income or just somebody believing that they're worth an opportunity. And it transcends across

00:08:39.740 any space, including the influencer space. The Black tax is so real in the influencer space. 0.88

00:08:46.840 Tina has a wildly successful business. She's also delightful, by the way, just goddamn delightful 0.98

00:08:52.320 to talk to. She influences, but she also coaches other influencers on how they can make money. 0.99

00:08:57.960 Tina and every influencer of color that I spoke to told me they felt like they had to work harder,

00:09:03.480 work better than their white counterparts. And none of this is in their imagination.

00:09:08.560 The pay gap between Black influencers and white influencers is very, very real. 0.63

00:09:13.340 Because there are a lot of brands that just don't want to work with

00:09:16.060 black, black women or black influencers because they don't think that we fit their target audience 0.89

00:09:23.020 or they don't think that we fit their demographic. And sometimes they don't, they don't believe that

00:09:28.100 we're capable of delivering the result that, you know, our white counterparts do. But in a lot of 0.51

00:09:34.060 cases, it's quite the opposite. Sometimes we, we not only produce, we produce more or we produce

00:09:40.900 with more intentionality.

00:09:42.560 I pride myself on having good work ethic,

00:09:44.640 but that same level of expectation

00:09:47.360 should be across the board, and it isn't. 1.00

00:09:51.320 And of course, undervaluing Black women's work, 1.00

00:09:54.960 all of their work,

00:09:56.400 goes so much deeper than just the influence space,

00:10:00.160 especially in tech.

00:10:02.160 To talk more about it,

00:10:03.240 I phoned a friend who was not Glittis.

00:10:07.720 I'm Bridget Tadd.

00:10:08.960 I'm the host and creator of the podcast on iHeartRadio called There Are No Girls on the Internet, where we explore the intersection of underrepresented identities and all things the Internet. 0.92

00:10:19.820 Bridget's show, by the way, is fucking amazing.

00:10:22.340 You should all listen to it. 0.98

00:10:23.640 In fact, take a minute.

00:10:24.860 Just go.

00:10:25.600 Do your search. 1.00

00:10:26.800 There are no girls on the Internet. 1.00

00:10:28.700 And subscribe. 1.00

00:10:30.180 Bridget, in addition to being a fellow nap dress enthusiast, is also an amateur Internet historian. 0.96

00:10:36.400 and she is insanely qualified to talk us through the background of how women of color have been

00:10:41.060 marginalized on the internet since the very beginning of the internet.

00:10:45.240 When you look at the history of the way that women of color, especially Black women, show up

00:10:49.560 online, it's this weird sort of duality where it's a story of, you know, innovation and joy

00:10:56.120 and creation and talent, but also a story of exploitation and theft and not being treated

00:11:03.380 as if you are a full participant in this experience.

00:11:07.080 You know, I believe that at the heart

00:11:09.580 of many internet experiences

00:11:12.000 is this understanding or assumption 0.96

00:11:15.100 that Black women, women of color, don't belong there. 0.56

00:11:19.800 When you look at things like influencers 1.00

00:11:22.160 being paid unfairly, you know,

00:11:24.680 this idea that it's Black talent that creates,

00:11:28.660 and that is just sort of seen as the fuel of the internet, right?

00:11:32.620 And so when black folks make things online, it's kind of assumed that, oh, it belongs to everybody.

00:11:37.040 Everybody can get out on this.

00:11:38.400 And it doesn't matter who created it because it's just something that makes the Internet cool and fun.

00:11:42.840 But actually, it does matter who creates it.

00:11:45.240 You know, it does matter whose name gets attached to it or whose name gets left off of it.

00:11:49.360 And unfortunately, when we look at the history of the Internet, when it comes to black folks and women of color,

00:11:54.440 the story is our name getting left off of it and other people capitalizing on our talent and our labor online.

00:12:01.000 What are some examples of Black women being left out of the narrative of the Internet and the success of the Internet?

00:12:08.820 A good example, 22-year-old Sydney McRae. 0.99

00:12:11.720 She is this Black TikToker who has over a million followers. 1.00

00:12:15.420 I am the creator of the Captain Hook Challenge. 1.00

00:12:20.520 She went viral after she was dancing to that Megan Thee Stallion song Captain Hook.

00:12:24.960 And Universal Music Group gave her $700 to promote a little Tekka song Out of Love. 0.84

00:12:31.000 Then, a white influencer, Addison Rae Esterling, was paid thousands of dollars just to emulate this dance that a Black creator first did. 0.99

00:12:48.900 Coincidence, a few days after I talked to Bridget, Addison Rae was brought on The Tonight Show to do a segment where she teaches TikTok dances to Jimmy Fallon. 1.00

00:12:58.840 She did eight dances.

00:13:00.780 All of them were originally choreographed by Black TikTok creators.

00:13:05.140 Do you think the show credited any of them?

00:13:08.100 They sure didn't.

00:13:09.180 But don't worry, the internet is all over it,

00:13:11.300 and they're already really mad at Addison and Jimmy and The Tonight Show.

00:13:15.540 Thankfully, this has just raised more awareness

00:13:17.620 that this is constantly happening to Black creators online. 1.00

00:13:21.740 Truly, you can sort of see how Black women create the thing, 0.97

00:13:26.020 and the thing goes viral. 1.00

00:13:27.680 They're not really paid, you know, what they should be paid for it.

00:13:30.620 And then white creators who kind of get in on it after the fact make more.

00:13:36.160 And I think it really comes down to whose voices and whose talent is seen as valuable.

00:13:41.360 I think it can shape how you think of yourself.

00:13:44.780 You know, I am not worthy.

00:13:46.700 I am not seen as worthy.

00:13:47.840 Therefore, I need to essentially kill myself to always be creating, always be doing a good

00:13:51.960 job, always be on, never give myself a moment to rest because I've internalized that I need 0.97

00:13:57.060 to work just that hard to get less than my white counterparts. And that is insane. It's insane 0.71

00:14:04.360 because there is so much money to be made right now. And this industry is still so new, such a

00:14:10.540 baby, that we need to make sure it doesn't fall into the same old historical patterns of inequity 0.98

00:14:15.520 and injustice that every other industry in the fucking world has fallen into. Everyone needs to 0.97

00:14:21.220 take what these women are doing and creating very seriously. It is a business. 1.00

00:14:28.800 Facebook's own internal sort of reporting mechanisms really do underscore that it is

00:14:34.080 creators of color who are driving the most traffic on their platforms. And so according

00:14:38.960 to an internal Facebook report, Black and Latino users outperformed other performers on almost

00:14:43.960 all metrics the company cares about, engagement, overall time on platform,

00:14:47.500 time spent on video. And so they know that we are the ones who are, you know, keeping their

00:14:52.580 platforms relevant and keeping eyeballs on screens, which is what they say they want.

00:14:57.120 And yet they continue to create, you know, platforms that really do bake bias into their

00:15:04.160 platforms. And so platforms and leaders need to take some accountability for that, the way that

00:15:08.700 they've built bias right into their platforms. And that's why, one of the reasons why I'm so

00:15:12.700 excited that you're doing this work with your show, because I think for a long time, people just

00:15:18.000 undervalued sort of the influencer economy just in general. And so, you know, people weren't

00:15:23.020 writing about it. People weren't researching it. People were not exploring it. I want a meme of

00:15:27.900 Samuel L. Jackson saying, it's a business story, motherfuckers. I'm going to ask. I'm going to call 1.00

00:15:32.600 his agent right now. Because we are very good journalists here at Under the Influence, we try

00:15:41.720 to get Instagram to comment on all of this. Instagram, which is owned by Facebook. I wanted

00:15:46.720 them to talk to us and comment on this whole fucking podcast, the whole thing, but, uh, got 0.98

00:15:51.840 totally ghosted. We tried and we're still trying. Instagram, call me. Anyway, it's important to hold 0.99

00:15:58.120 these platforms accountable and also to hold the brands that advertise on these platforms

00:16:02.900 accountable. When we get back from the break, we are going to talk to the women who are bringing

00:16:06.820 these brands to task. Women who took matters into their own hands because no one else will. 0.99

00:16:24.240 There's this quote that I love. Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come.

00:16:30.800 that quote is by victor hugo and i apologize for quoting a white man but to be honest the time has

00:16:40.660 come in may of 2020 when a reckoning on race swept the nation in the wake of george floyd's death

00:16:46.680 we learned just how powerful it is to speak up that nothing will change if people stay silent

00:16:52.540 that has proved true in the influencer space too influencers of color are speaking up

00:16:59.640 And thankfully, some people are finally listening.

00:17:04.580 One of the platforms that's been exposing this disparity is an Instagram account called Influencer Pay Gap.

00:17:10.480 It was started last year by Adesua Ajahi, a Black woman who works at the talent agency AGM and manages influencers.

00:17:18.400 I created the Influencer Pay Gap page just given my time and space and just kind of reaching the point where I just felt, you know,

00:17:26.620 people need to be talking about this on a mass scale i just kind of felt like it was often

00:17:33.200 black managers or whatever or influencers and creators either here or across the pond speaking

00:17:40.360 about it but on just on an industry-wide level i felt like it was often ignored and wasn't being

00:17:46.500 necessarily being taken seriously or even addressed through the posts on this account

00:17:52.780 Ajahi asks influencers to anonymously detail their past brand campaigns.

00:17:57.740 She asks them to share their engagement rate, how much they were paid,

00:18:00.840 exactly what they had to do in very explicit detail, their race, and where they're based.

00:18:06.540 I definitely think the disparities in pay exist for a number of reasons.

00:18:11.340 I think a common one that a lot of people discuss is obvious infancy of the space.

00:18:16.700 However, I think there are a lot more pressing matters and a lot more destructive matters

00:18:22.700 such as, you know, the way in which companies uphold racist behaviors within, you know, their structures and also the complete lack of representation and how that trickles down into their marketing and also trickles down into the kind of toxic behaviors we often see on the brand side when it comes to, you know, just their feeds and who they decide to include within campaigns and who they decide to pay more.

00:18:51.780 Uploading anonymous posts gave creators of color the freedom to finally talk about the way they'd been overlooked and even abused in this space.

00:19:01.140 How people of color are so often overlooked for the things they create, but also how it can be really scary to talk about, especially when there's money involved.

00:19:10.880 Speaking about it, I think a lot of influencers and creators have had really bad experiences,

00:19:16.100 But still to this day, fear the consequences of speaking out about those experiences, whether it's going to blackball them within the space, whether it's going to prevent them from having any future opportunities, especially when it comes to ethnic minorities and black creators. 0.87

00:19:31.700 you know, I think that that issue is even more intensified when, you know, there's already a

00:19:37.540 shortage of opportunities. You sometimes may feel that speaking out may reduce those opportunities

00:19:44.740 even further, if not remove them entirely. The Influencer Pay Gap now gets hundreds

00:19:50.020 of direct messages a day from all over the world. Hello, I'm a content creator. I have an audience

00:19:56.460 of over $60,000. I've been charging around $400 to $500. The company offered me $400. But I feel

00:20:03.800 like I deserve much more. This company is worth over $1 billion. What are some things I should

00:20:09.640 request contractually? Needless to say, I am now looking for new brands to work with. Are there

00:20:14.140 newbie pitfalls I should seek to avoid? What should I do? What should I do? It just really 1.00

00:20:20.520 does expose the degree to which some brands have completely normalized you know just complete toxic

00:20:28.660 you know forms of outreach and and just horrible behavior that shouldn't be allowed and that

00:20:36.120 should definitely be nipped in the bud and regulated it just goes to show how vulnerable

00:20:41.660 creators can end up being especially like instances of having done the work and just completely

00:20:48.420 being ghosted or completely being given the runaround.

00:20:53.820 Luckily, despite everything we talked about in our Burning Cats episode,

00:20:58.040 there's more and more creators out there who are looking out for each other.

00:21:02.220 Tina is one of those people. 0.99

00:21:04.400 Tina's a goddamn gem. 0.98

00:21:05.880 She has been this incredible voice in calling out brands and supporting her fellow influencers. 0.99

00:21:11.460 Yeah, influencers really started calling brands to the carpet.

00:21:14.420 it. And there were brands that maybe at the beginning of the year would only be willing

00:21:20.600 to pay maybe $850 that they came back midway through the year and they suddenly had a budget

00:21:25.200 that allowed $2,000. And it was like, you had this budget the whole time. You just didn't pay

00:21:29.380 us because you didn't think we were worth it. Do you think they were paying some of the white 0.68

00:21:33.120 influencers that money? They were. I mean, I have white influencer friends that we openly share 0.53

00:21:39.840 rates and things with, and they were. And that's why I'm not afraid to share how much I made,

00:21:44.940 because if we don't talk about it, then it kind of just gets swept under the rug or somebody gets

00:21:49.280 undercut because they don't know what they could have asked for. So I'm always willing to, once

00:21:54.140 my contract is signed anyway, I'm always willing to share. I got to sign my contract first, but I'm

00:21:59.460 always willing to share. Yeah. You're like, I got to make sure that money is actually coming.

00:22:05.320 But no, it's true. You know, as women, we've been trained for so long, like,

00:22:08.540 don't talk about what you make, don't talk about your power. And I'm like, no, you let it fly.

00:22:13.000 Because how else are young women and the girls just coming up gonna know what to ask for if we

00:22:18.040 don't tell them what to ask for? Absolutely. In the past six months, Tina has found herself able

00:22:26.140 to set her own rates with brands. She's more confident about the quality of her work now

00:22:30.880 than she's ever been before. Tina is actually one of the most confident people that I've ever met.

00:22:36.160 I hope I can say this as politically correct as possible. Nine times out of 10 in brand boardrooms and marketing rooms, there isn't someone in there that knows how to speak to Black women in a way that it's going to connect. 0.65

00:22:48.720 So you're hiring me not only to create content, quality content, you're hiring me to speak to my audience about your product in a way that they feel like it can be of value to their life. And that connection point alone is invaluable.

00:23:06.160 I love Tina. 0.99

00:23:07.780 I love her because she knows her goddamn worth. 0.99

00:23:10.880 She knows it and she will shout it through the rooftops 0.99

00:23:13.480 and tell other women how they can get her kind of confidence. 1.00

00:23:17.740 Last year, Tina made a little over $300,000 1.00

00:23:21.320 as an influencer and influencer coach. 1.00

00:23:24.720 That let her quit her day job as an insurance adjuster

00:23:27.620 where she was only making $55,000.

00:23:30.920 She is determined not to let herself fall into this pay gap. 1.00

00:23:34.960 and she doesn't want other women to either. 0.99

00:23:40.100 This industry still has time to change. 1.00

00:23:42.880 It still has time to properly value black creators. 1.00

00:23:46.300 We are not the first people to put this out there,

00:23:48.760 but I will say not enough people are reporting on it.

00:23:51.920 We don't talk about it enough

00:23:53.020 and we should be talking about it right now.

00:23:56.660 This systemic racism is not the only problem

00:23:59.880 facing the influencer world.

00:24:01.120 And I'm sorry to be such a downer in this episode,

00:24:03.700 but to get to the good stuff,

00:24:04.960 We have to dig. We have to dig deep and get through all the problems.

00:24:08.380 Political issues, all of the political bullshit of the past year, 0.94

00:24:12.640 they seep into the influencer world as well. 0.99

00:24:15.100 All of the rage and the conspiracy theories,

00:24:18.160 all of it has found a place on the mom internet.

00:24:23.020 Time for a quick break.

00:24:24.420 When we get back, we are going to fall further and further into the dark side.

00:24:28.840 Yes, my friends, I am going to introduce you to something

00:24:31.520 that you will not be able to get out of your head.

00:24:33.120 the conspiracy theories of mom instagram let's talk about q a mom 1.00

00:24:41.020 the world was a scary fucking place in 2020 still pretty scary in 2021 a lot of weird shit 1.00

00:24:59.880 I continue to prefer to call it a shitfuck of a dumpster fire. 1.00

00:25:04.180 A lot of what was burning in that shitfuck of a dumpster fire were conspiracy theories. 0.99

00:25:09.200 Have you heard some of the shit that got passed around on the internet in 2020 and now in 2021? 1.00

00:25:13.880 It's bonkers. 0.99

00:25:16.040 And of course, social media is ground zero for that.

00:25:20.500 Just ask Chrissy Teigen.

00:25:21.760 we open this episode talking about Chrissy Teigen leaving Twitter because of all of the 0.99

00:25:28.340 nastiness and shit that had been heaped on her but a lot of people are also wondering if she 0.99

00:25:33.780 left because of the massive harassment she's gotten from members of QAnon Chrissy and her 0.99

00:25:39.840 husband John Legend have been attacked by a cabal of conspiracy theorists for the past couple years

00:25:45.640 qanon and their followers believe that both john and chrissy are part of a cult of cannibalistic 1.00

00:25:52.820 child abusers that is pedophiles who eat babies just let that let that let that fucking sink in 0.99

00:26:00.520 for a minute they believe that chrissy teigen and john legend eat babies anyway last year when 1.00

00:26:09.620 chrissy posted the emotional and devastating news that she suffered a miscarriage on her social

00:26:14.880 media accounts, she got a ton of support from fans. But none of that was enough to protect

00:26:20.240 her from QAnon's insanity. 0.91

00:26:22.800 That's karma for eating kids. 1.00

00:26:25.720 Even if she was pregnant at the beginning, it's sad that she lost the baby. But it's 1.00

00:26:30.080 probably for the best.

00:26:32.100 Ritual, ritual, ritual sacrifice to get back her fans.

00:26:38.360 I'm going to say it again. Eating, who eat, dance? Eating kids?

00:26:41.780 now q anon's probably gonna come after me i definitely don't eat kids pizza yes kids no

00:26:51.860 so these threats and these baseless claims continued this week after chrissy deleted

00:26:57.440 her twitter account in fact the conspiracy theorists announced that they were just totally

00:27:02.680 vindicated when she deleted her account because this meant that chrissy tegan was obviously being

00:27:08.220 sent to Guantanamo for her alleged, completely untrue crimes of eating babies. 0.96

00:27:15.380 Let's hope this means she's getting investigated soon and arrested. 0.95

00:27:18.880 She's probably trying to delete her obvious pedo evidence, but thankfully the Wayback

00:27:22.760 machine exists.

00:27:24.740 Last weekend, I was talking about it with some of my mom friends, you know, the book

00:27:28.620 club girls, and they were all like, that's crazy.

00:27:31.360 And I'm like, it is crazy, but it's not that crazy.

00:27:34.520 It's not that crazy because QAnon is all over the internet.

00:27:39.420 In fact, and here we go for the second part of today's episode,

00:27:43.400 QAnon is all over the mom-influencing industrial complex.

00:27:52.240 There's a surprising overlap between mom-influencers and QAnon.

00:27:57.060 Jessalyn Cook is the tech and online conspiracy theory reporter at HuffPost.

00:28:01.800 That is one of the best beats I've ever heard of.

00:28:04.520 Even better than my original New York Daily News beat of going to Bungalow 8 and getting drunk at 3 a.m. with Lindsay Lohan.

00:28:12.300 Before we get into all this, I want to make sure that we all know what QAnon is.

00:28:17.240 Me included.

00:28:18.320 I needed to talk to an expert because, honestly, I hear QAnon and I'm like,

00:28:23.220 I still don't know entirely what it is, but I now know that it involves people who believe celebrities are both cannibals and pedophiles.

00:28:32.000 It has something to do with the deep state, maybe the Illuminati, definitely anti-vaxxers, 0.97

00:28:38.820 and that Hillary Clinton is the devil. But I need more than that. 0.94

00:28:44.500 QAnon is a global conspiracy theory movement that's very concentrated in the US. And there is

00:28:50.920 a leader, Q, who is supposedly a government insider, anonymously leaking intel to the public

00:28:58.480 through networks like 8kun. The theory is that there is a deep state cabal of pedophiles in the

00:29:05.420 government that is running an underground child sex trafficking ring. So there's all kinds of 0.83

00:29:10.800 horrible, horrible crimes here. And it's very scary. And I think that fear is what draws a lot

00:29:16.180 of people into this movement. So how did Q infiltrate something like mom influencers?

00:29:22.420 A lot of that comes from the fact that Save the Children is very on brand for mom influencers.

00:29:28.940 The whole QAnon movement is about children being sex trafficked and stolen from their parents, 0.63

00:29:34.100 pedophilia, all this really scary stuff, much of which is not actually happening. But

00:29:39.520 it definitely draws a lot of moms, or as they're known, QA moms into the movement. 1.00

00:29:45.140 Wait, they're called QA moms? 0.99

00:29:47.540 Yeah. 0.98

00:29:48.260 When you think about it that way, you're like, God damn, it's really good branding. 0.97

00:29:52.420 Because who can say that they're not against child trafficking and pedophilia? 0.97

00:29:57.580 And it's absolutely something that a group like mom influencers would support.

00:30:03.300 What have you found are some of the dangers of this kind of conspiracy theory infiltrating

00:30:08.180 the mom influencing world?

00:30:10.180 Yeah, the scary thing, I think, is that once it reaches the influencer stage, this kind

00:30:15.240 of thinking, this ideology has really been mainstreamed.

00:30:17.940 It used to be we would only see QAnon conspiracy theories on fringe networks.

00:30:22.420 8chan, 8kun, kind of more far-right figures on social media. But now you can just be on Instagram

00:30:29.140 and see a mom say, hey, check out this slow cooker or check out this product I really like. 1.00

00:30:34.220 Also, did you know that Hillary Clinton is a cannibal? Influencers are people we trust. They're 1.00

00:30:40.080 people we look up to. And so when they start pushing these crazy ideas, they seem a little

00:30:44.340 less crazy to us. That point, the one right there that Jessalyn just said is very interesting.

00:30:50.200 We trust influencers.

00:30:51.700 We trust them and we have this intimacy with them.

00:30:54.560 They give us smoothie recipes and they tell us to wear the right white pants before or after Memorial Day.

00:31:02.140 And so when they start to tell you that the world is ruled by a child trafficking ring, you're like, well, that smoothie recipe was really good.

00:31:09.240 So maybe I should trust them.

00:31:11.680 It's that parasocial interaction where you really feel like you are friends with this influencer.

00:31:16.860 You know them.

00:31:17.580 You've seen all sides of their life.

00:31:19.280 and you trust them. I was looking through some of the comments on a specific QMOM influencers posts

00:31:24.820 and so many people were saying, you know, I'd never heard of this stuff, but thanks for putting

00:31:29.280 it on my radar. I'm going to check it out, which is the scary part. That is the scary part. And

00:31:33.580 which QMOM post was that? The biggest QMOM I've seen, her name on Instagram is lovebeck, L-U-V-B-E-C 1.00

00:31:42.780 and then style. And so she used to have a huge, huge page where she would talk about fashion and

00:31:49.580 other inspirational topics. And then she started filtering in some QAnon stuff

00:31:54.940 in the spring or summer as the pandemic really blew up and as we started seeing more disinformation

00:32:02.540 flying around. And then she kind of just pivoted her whole page to shoving QAnon conspiracy theories

00:32:08.000 down her followers' throats. It does feel more dangerous when a conspiracy theory is beautifully

00:32:14.260 packaged. Seeing a conspiracy theory packaged in a peachy, hazy, filtered square feels a lot

00:32:22.720 different than, say, reading a creepy Reddit thread, which I think a lot of normal moms are

00:32:27.620 not going to do. Yeah, you're absolutely right. The long-term QAnon figures on some of those

00:32:34.900 fringe sites, a lot of their propaganda is very scary. You're going to hear very dramatic music.

00:32:39.740 You're going to see a lot of storms and darkness and really trying to stir up that fear. Whereas

00:32:44.920 with QMOM influencers, there's, like you said, like pastel colored posts and like cursive writing

00:32:51.920 and very visually appealing stuff that seems very natural. It's the kind of stuff we're used

00:32:56.720 to seeing on Instagram. It's really scary, false information that's being packaged beautifully to

00:33:01.380 make it more trustworthy. And you've also seen that a lot of influencers are talking about COVID-19

00:33:08.580 conspiracy theories. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, absolutely. QAnon has been

00:33:14.200 pushing a ton of COVID-19 conspiracy theories. So perhaps it's not so shocking that we're seeing

00:33:19.020 these conspiracy theories trickle into the influencer sphere as well, and specifically

00:33:25.120 with QAnon moms, but I think a lot of mom influencers are also very interested in the

00:33:31.560 natural wellness space. And so part of that can come with promoting a skepticism of traditional

00:33:38.540 medicine, promoting alternative medicine. Sometimes you see these influencers saying,

00:33:43.100 instead of getting a vaccine, try this immunity boosting serum. And so it all kind of blurs

00:33:48.520 together and it ties in very neatly to QAnon conspiracy theories. I did reach out to a lot

00:33:55.380 of alleged QAnon moms and these women wanted nothing to do with me. Many of them told me that

00:34:01.600 they were not actually QAnon moms or at all related to QAnon. But isn't that exactly what

00:34:07.460 you would say if you were peddling a conspiracy theory about people eating babies? I would. I'd

00:34:12.900 be like, I never say she eats babies. But the reporters who are constantly digging into the

00:34:18.060 accounts. They do continue to find some scary stuff out there, and they're finding more of it

00:34:22.440 every single day. This is blowing up a lot. It used to be, I mean, when I wrote my piece

00:34:31.180 several months ago about the QMOM space and all these influencers, it was, I think I found a

00:34:36.260 dozen doing it, a dozen influencers with kids promoting these theories. And now it's really

00:34:42.200 shockingly commonplace um it often starts with anti-vax content and then gets a little more

00:34:48.680 extreme and promoting this skepticism of the official narrative surrounding COVID-19 like

00:34:53.520 maybe it is all a government plan maybe it is some evil plot by Bill Gates or whomever and

00:35:00.320 it's a very gradual slippery slope

00:35:03.220 all of this is a slippery slope in fact it's all of the metaphors a slippery slope 0.99

00:35:13.960 the wild wild west a shit fuck of a dumpster fire but it doesn't have to be this way it shouldn't 0.93

00:35:20.880 have to be this way i like the world of influencing and i want it to be better 0.98

00:35:26.860 maybe asking social media to completely transcend the racist history of the world is too much to

00:35:32.880 ask. But is it? Is it really? Come on. The least we can do is work towards paying influencers of

00:35:40.640 color fairly and equally and giving credit where credit is due. And the least these social media

00:35:48.180 platforms, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, the least that they can do is try to regulate 0.99

00:35:54.820 all of the goddamn conspiracy theories about eating babies and vaccines controlling our brains 0.99

00:36:00.180 that threaten democracy and our public health. 1.00

00:36:04.660 The world of mom influencing can be a scary fucking place. 0.99

00:36:08.620 But as we have said up until now, 0.99

00:36:10.740 there's still good that can come from this world.

00:36:13.560 This can still be an incredibly groundbreaking business 1.00

00:36:16.400 that gets women paid for all of their unpaid labor, 0.91

00:36:19.200 that lets women support their families 1.00

00:36:20.900 without all of the shit. 1.00

00:36:23.440 Let's just get rid of the shit, guys. 1.00

00:36:27.460 Now I want you to imagine that I am Sally Field 1.00

00:36:29.640 as Norma Rae climbing up onto a table on a factory floor covered in boob sweat and holding up a union 0.99

00:36:36.600 sign. Because this industry can be better. We can make it better. And also what does this have to

00:36:43.500 do with unions? Funny you should ask. SAG-AFTRA, the Screen Actors Guild union, they just recently

00:36:49.520 decided to let influencers into their union. Yeah, influencing is such big business that they are now

00:36:55.760 getting into the SAG-AFTRA union. And next week, I talk to SAG-AFTRA union president Gabrielle

00:37:03.580 Carteris. Yes. Andrea Zuckerman from Beverly Hills 90210. Andrea was always my favorite.

00:37:13.100 Sorry, Brenda. And she tells me how she believes that the influencer industry is

00:37:17.300 just going to keep growing and growing. And of course, I am still wondering how I can

00:37:25.440 contribute to this brave new internet landscape should i still try to be an instagram influencer

00:37:30.760 do i have to have another baby if i want to be successful at this my period is late again

00:37:35.920 so i'm either pregnant or going into early menopause is there a future in this for me

00:37:41.500 guys i recently even thought about going on tiktok i apologize in advance for what is going to happen

00:37:48.060 on tiktok next week all right guys so tonight i'm gonna try tiktok i love tiktok and you don't know

00:37:55.800 what tiktok is i love it so much but it is my duty to try this stuff out and once i do i will

00:38:01.280 tell you all about where all of this is headed my very mean producer emily said that we can't

00:38:07.480 afford to do a clip of doc brown from back to the future even though i've been begging and

00:38:13.020 fucking dreaming of using it right here so i guess i'm just gonna have to say it myself 0.87

00:38:17.300 we're going back 0.98

00:38:18.880 to the future

00:38:20.860 of influencing

00:38:22.500 Under the Influence is reported

00:38:29.620 and hosted by me

00:38:31.140 Joe Piazza

00:38:32.280 our story editor is Glynis McNichol

00:38:34.840 and Emily Marinoff is our producer

00:38:36.560 sound design by Emily Marinoff

00:38:39.080 and Jackie Huntington

00:38:40.120 our theme and additional music

00:38:42.280 was composed by Jessica Kreinchich

00:38:44.300 mixing done by Jackie Huntington

00:38:47.120 Additional research, as always, conducted by Jocelyn Sears

00:38:51.380 Julian Weller is our consulting producer

00:38:53.900 and Mangesh Hatikador is our executive producer

00:38:56.320 Special thanks to Christine Pride, Denise Jolie,

00:38:59.900 Shauna Robinson, Tiano Monogatla, Bailey Herday,

00:39:03.500 Marcy DePina, Lindsay Hoffman, and Abu Zafar

00:39:06.140 for taking the time to read some of the all-around eye-opening

00:39:10.040 and also some of the very bonkers internet comments

00:39:12.880 But we will not thank Julian Weller

00:39:15.120 because he made us listen to an internet troll impression

00:39:17.600 that he describes as, quote, sweaty Batman.

00:39:21.080 That's karma for eating kids.

00:39:23.440 I'd like to close this episode by saying once again

00:39:25.620 that I do not eat babies

00:39:27.420 and that no baby eating at all occurred

00:39:30.020 in the production of this episode.

00:39:45.120 You

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - April 01, 2021

It’s Time For A Reckoning

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