00:04:23.980I listen to the podcast and, you know, I'm a fan of yours.
00:04:28.500And I think as a writer and a woman, you know, small business owner myself, I think we are lucky to be in a time where social media and podcasting media in general has such a power to lift us all.
00:04:44.020One of the things that I just felt saddened by was just one, some of the misinformation around the pageant system as a whole and pageantry in general, some negative stereotypes.
00:05:02.800I like to think that we as women will not move forward at all whatsoever together unless women stop judging the choices of other women.0.93
00:05:12.880Tell me everything. All right. Here's the first thing. Here's the first thing I'm going to admit. I don't know jack shit about pageants. So in that episode, maybe I was thinking about an antiquated idea of pageant pageantry as, you know, a contest that judges women based on physical attributes.0.91
00:05:33.940tell me everything that we should know about pageants in the modern day i think
00:05:38.640i i have never i've never well actually i have i have been to to some pageants i when i was a
00:05:46.220gossip columnist back in the day i used to have to come for oh my god it was so it was the best
00:05:51.920job to have and be 20 years old i mean so much fun so fun it was just so much fun but you know
00:06:00.360what here's where I think my bias is and that's why it's it's interesting to talk about this
00:06:04.480because it's like where does your bias come from I used to cover Donald Trump's beauty pageants
00:06:09.080and I think his are the Miss World and the Miss Universe I'm going to google that to make sure
00:06:16.180anymore he does not own them anymore okay okay but he did own Miss USA Miss Universe Miss USA
00:06:22.780Miss Universe. I covered them when he was the owner of them. And those felt very misogynistic
00:06:30.740and sexist to me when I covered them. And I think that that is where my bias is coming in. But I
00:06:36.080want to hear from you and tell the audience a little bit about your involvement with pageants
00:06:40.580and what makes you kind of an expert on this world. So first, thank you for being able to say,
00:06:46.900like, hey, I don't know about this and I want to learn more. I really appreciate that. And I think
00:06:52.260that's so much of what we need. I grew up around pageants. My mom, she was a director in the Miss
00:06:58.700America system for over 20 years. She was very successful. She helped over five women become,
00:07:06.020she helped five women become Miss America, countless runner-ups. She's unbelievable.
00:07:13.460And when I look at the women whose lives she changed, it was incredible to me. And then when
00:07:18.040I got married, one of my best girlfriends was doing hair and makeup for Mrs. Tennessee. And I
00:07:25.340thought to myself, what the heck is Mrs. Tennessee? And she said, Oh, it's just a it's a like a Miss0.99
00:07:31.280America, but for married ladies. And I thought to myself, Oh my gosh, that's crazy. I'm an athlete.0.97
00:07:36.620I'm a runner. I've run a couple marathons. And I thought, I'm a little burnt out on running. And
00:07:42.240I really like a goal that has nothing to do with running. So I told my husband, I was like, I'm
00:07:47.740going to compete. Nobody believed I was going to do it. Um, and the rest is history. I won
00:07:53.220Mrs. New York after my second try. Um, I was taught 15 at Mrs. America this year. I was able
00:07:59.500to raise over $7,000 for my platform. Um, so it's been, it's been great. And then I also own a,
00:08:07.140um, company called Rosen Media Consulting where, um, I'm a social strategist. So I work with
00:08:13.300pageant contestants to, and systems and businesses to learn how to tell their authentic stories
00:08:18.800online, um, so that we can really work to eradicate these negative stereotypes of,
00:08:24.120like I said, this bygone era, this Miss Congeniality era that we live in. Um, so that
00:08:30.580women can see that it's not, pageantry is not about the cheeseburger that they're eating after
00:08:35.440they won. They're learning how to tell their story. So it's not, it's not that kind of messaging1.00
00:08:41.160where you're teaching young women or the internet that, oh, I'm so happy that I can eat now,
00:08:47.300or look at these Navy SEAL-esque workouts that I'm doing. We're teaching women really to tell1.00
00:08:52.900their authentic stories, to showcase the power behind their messaging on the internet so that0.98
00:08:59.180we can show just how relevant pageantry is. So you know so much about this world. You are the
00:09:03.520great person to talk to. But, but you're also helping women who compete in pageants to break0.93
00:09:11.600the stereotype of old school stereotype of pageantry on social media. Right. Correct.
00:09:20.040Cool. Okay. So go at me. Tell me what I got wrong. Yeah. Okay. Well, let me start with saying,
00:09:26.140uh, the first things you talked about were, you know, Hannah's Miss South Dakota. She was appointed
00:09:30.960that as an at-large title um the week before the competition so she was never you know officially
00:09:39.100crowned she didn't have a competition there was not a lot of content out there about her preparation
00:09:43.780right right right I remember the first thing that I saw about it was something
00:09:48.420a fabulous face or best face where it looked like a some kind of competition on the social media
00:09:55.800that had to do with the pageant that was just it looked like who's the prettiest is what it looked
00:10:02.740like and I'm like I don't love that but um the the fabulous face is actually not the best face
00:10:09.820it's called the fabulous face contest um that she posted about raising money for and that money
00:10:15.340actually goes back to the national um the national platform called Victoria's Voice which was started
00:10:22.100by David and Jackie Siegel when their daughter died at age 18 of an opioid overdose. And so
00:10:28.780all of the money that is raised from the fabulous space, I mean, yes, you do get in
00:10:34.100the top 16 or top 15, but the money does go to a really, really great cause. And that organization
00:10:40.740has done so much to lobby for getting NARCAM out on the streets, preventing overdose deaths,
00:10:47.940educating police officers and making sure that they who are on the front lines have the resources
00:10:55.120to prevent overdoses with the use of Narcan. So it's pretty amazing the money goes directly to
00:11:01.880funding those efforts. Okay yeah so I'm looking at the website and it costs money to vote
00:11:07.260and you're telling me that that money goes to this great cause which is awesome which is
00:11:14.660fascinating to me I have been doing a little bit of googling and I'm not seeing enough about that
00:11:21.020so maybe maybe that is something that the pageant could correct to promote that this is where the
00:11:26.760money is going to or maybe I'm just missing it I don't know I don't know but you also you have
00:11:33.260a lot to tell me about the history of the pageant and I want to hear more about that too because a
00:11:42.340lot of the information that I got was from this Jezebel article from 2016 entitled The Long
00:11:48.620Strange Life of the Mrs. America Pageant. And one of the things that I didn't love was women0.98
00:11:56.220being graded on their domestic abilities. The pageant was actually founded in 1936,0.97
00:12:04.160and it was owned by a gentleman named Burt Nevis. And it was the only nationally televised beauty
00:12:09.660pageant for married women. And they were graded on cooking, sewing, ironing, party prep, other0.91
00:12:17.000homemaking abilities, family psychology, poise, personality. But then in 1977 to now, it was bought
00:12:26.000by a gentleman, a couple called named David and Elaine Marmel. And they completely revamped the
00:12:33.760pageant. The categories no longer were cooking or homemaking, but it became about your abilities,
00:12:43.000your job, your community service work, poise, personality, and your platform. One of the things
00:12:50.100I really want to talk about are the kinds of women that compete in beauty pageants, because I think0.96
00:12:56.480that there is this idea, well, that's anti-feminist or that's anti-created. So I have met women,0.95
00:13:03.100like even at Mrs. New York, I met a woman who she went to Cambridge. She is working on a fellowship
00:13:09.960that is working to eradicate the genome in, um, during pregnancy that causes autism. Um, and you
00:13:19.660know, that's a big job. It's a big job. It's pretty amazing. And she's like, I work in a lab
00:13:24.960all day and I want to talk about this work that's being done. And I don't know how to do that outside
00:13:29.500of the lab the uh new york american who competed with hannah she was a producer with for dan rather
00:13:35.840for 12 years um the mrs the current mrs maryland she was the she is the head of all federal
00:13:42.240penitentiaries in the united states um you know so there are really amazing women nicole laha
00:13:48.980zorkian she is a mother of two um one her child has cerebral palsy and she is running for political
00:13:56.120office in Illinois to advocate for inclusive playgrounds and more inclusivity for children
00:14:04.060with disabilities. The Mrs. America before her is an intersex woman named Jackie Blankenship who0.86
00:14:11.620talks about her journey as an intersex woman. She was born without any reproductive organs0.99
00:14:17.080and her journey towards finding out how to be feminine, finding what her brand was, what her
00:14:23.280voice was, you know, who she is as a woman, and then what it was to become a mother. You know,
00:14:29.560her sister graciously carried a child for her because she physically cannot. So these are the
00:14:35.960kinds of women who compete in pageantry. And these are the stories that unfortunately don't get told1.00
00:14:40.780because so many people are quick to judge what they don't know. And instead of doing the work to
00:14:49.560find out what the stories are behind these women, they say, oh, I just see this swimsuit1.00
00:14:57.760competition. Yes, yes, yes. And yes, I will tell you that when I hear the word pageant,0.99
00:15:03.720in my head, I see bathing suits. I see ladies in bathing suits in high heels,
00:15:09.780walking across the stage. And my immediate go-to, I don't know why this is, but I'm like,0.98
00:15:14.660I don't want women to be judged based on their bodies like that. I don't. And it's not. It's1.00
00:15:21.840funny because based off what some of the commenters have been saying to me when I talked about Hannah
00:15:29.340and Ballerina Farm postpartum, people are saying, well, you're jealous or you're thin shaming. And
00:15:37.360this doesn't have to do with bodies. It has to do with judgment and the male gaze and what we
00:15:44.000prioritize about women. But I want to get into, I want to hear all of your thoughts on that. But
00:15:49.880first, we're going to take a quick break and we will be right back. Support for today's episode
00:15:55.540comes from OneSkin. If you're like me, and we've talked about this before, you tend to set really
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00:20:39.100slash under the influence. And the code is influence. Get some good sleep. You deserve
00:20:44.020it and you need it. We are back and we're going to talk about swimsuit competitions and how they
00:20:57.180make me feel icky, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Well, for me, and I think for a lot of
00:21:05.540women who've competed in a pageant and have competed in swimsuit. I can tell you there is
00:21:10.120truly, and I have run marathons and triathlons. There is nothing more empowering than standing
00:21:18.540on stage, presenting the best version of myself on that day, not 20 years ago or in six months
00:21:27.120from now, the best version of myself physically on that day, best version of myself mentally
00:21:32.400as a champion advocate for my family, myself, my community, my state, and standing in front
00:21:39.280of a panel of judges and saying, I dare you not to pick me. I dare you. And to me, there's nothing
00:21:46.300more feminist than that. Um, and so, you know, that's, that's the kind of, that's the kind of1.00
00:21:52.920world that we live in. I mean, I like to think of pageantry as a sport, you know, I hired many
00:21:59.940coaches. Um, it teaches you to humble yourself and say, I'm not, I'm not an expert in pageantry.
00:22:06.640So I'm going to surround myself with experts. I hired a walking coach. I hired an interview
00:22:11.500coach. What does a walking coach do? Exactly what you think they do. They, they teach you how to0.60
00:22:19.960walk in high heels. They teach you how to pose. They teach you how to, you know, all about eye
00:22:26.440contact, all about owning the stage and the presence. They teach you how to go from don't
00:22:32.940look at me to please look at me and how to feel confident in your own skin to say, please look at
00:22:41.440me. Look how my presence is larger than life because here I am representing something bigger
00:22:48.040than myself. So that is, um, I know very long winded, but I feel like hopefully a little bit
00:22:53.880more of a comprehensive, uh, idea about pageantry. Like, yes, you know, we do have walking coaches
00:23:02.200and yes, do I still struggle to walk in six inch heels? But you said something that, that really
00:23:07.100hit home with me on your podcast. You said, you know, is there a pageant for, um, you know,
00:23:13.320people in sweatpants and no makeup? And like, I am wearing sweatpants currently and I have no
00:23:18.960makeup on. And you look great. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. But I would say
00:23:24.640that that's every woman in pageantry. They're just regular women who believe in something bigger than1.00
00:23:32.380themselves, who want to be a part of something bigger than themselves, like anybody else,
00:23:36.220like you are with your podcast and are using pageantry as the platform, as the megaphone for
00:23:44.020for whatever it is, whatever cause it is they want to champion or whatever dream it is that
00:23:49.700they have. It's no different than somebody who wants to be an influencer or somebody who wants
00:23:54.720to be an actor or a writer. It's just a platform that they use. Joe, have you ever thought about
00:24:02.580competing in a beauty pageant or have you ever competed in a beauty pageant? I have not. I've
00:24:06.760not. The closest that I came is to like just walking even on a runway was that I was asked
00:24:13.060to walk in some kind of like dog show, fashion show. I know. I carried a very cute bulldog puppy
00:24:20.320and my looking back on it, my shirt dress was so short. You could definitely see my booty.
00:24:26.400So that is the closest that I've come to being on stage in, in such a manner.
00:24:31.720Okay. Okay. Well, how did it feel when you did that? Was it fun? Was it exciting?
00:24:36.500I did not like it. I did not like people. I did not like people staring at me in that way,
00:24:41.500which is very interesting, because I love speaking in front of a crowd. Yeah, like that felt
00:24:47.320different. That that felt like I was being stared at for how I looked as opposed to what I was
00:24:53.680saying, if that makes sense. Totally, totally. I completely understand that that point of view. And
00:24:59.320I have been there myself. So I definitely I definitely get that. How can we flip this script?
00:25:05.020Like, how do you encourage women on social media to, you know, change the story around pageants?
00:25:14.900Yeah, so I think it starts, it starts with, with women in pageantry telling their authentic story
00:25:23.420and moving away from the stereotypes that surround pageantry, you know, moving away from posting
00:25:29.940about um you know world peace and talking more about their causes i have a client right now who
00:25:38.260is um she's been advocating on and lobbying on capitol hill for truth and advertising since
00:25:45.100she was 18 years old and um he posts on social media only unfiltered unedited no photoshop
00:25:54.820nothing. Um, so, you know, it's, it's telling stories like that. It's, um, owning, owning your
00:26:03.580process instead of, um, saying, Oh my gosh, I worked out and I miss carbs. Um, so it's starting
00:26:10.720with that. But then I also think it's having conversations like this, you know, reaching out
00:26:16.560and saying, instead of being defensive and aggressive, what if woman to woman, you know,
00:26:23.080community to community, we just shared the pros of this world. So, you know, we can educate each
00:26:31.440other about, you know, what makes pageantry so special? What makes it so empowering? What makes
00:26:39.640it so, I think, inherently feminist? And how can we work together to remove bias? And that only
00:26:47.120comes from having conversations like this. You know, you were so open and said, you know,
00:26:52.440my intention was never to hurt anyone was never to harm the opinion of women in pageantry. And so
00:27:00.760I think, you know, having more women be open to conversations like this and saying, instead of1.00
00:27:07.900being defensive saying, okay, let's talk, let's sit down and talk and have a conversation. And1.00
00:27:13.680let me just educate you about what I know. And maybe you can educate me about where your bias
00:27:19.120comes from. And maybe by having those conversations, I can learn from you and you can learn from me.
00:27:26.100And I think, I think, you know, that's where it starts. Have really saying, look, this is
00:27:33.720inherently feminist. These women choose to do this. They, nobody's forcing them to do this.1.00
00:27:39.740You know, my panel of judges was mostly women of color. It wasn't all men. There was no extreme
00:27:47.900male gaze in the audience, you know, and really having these conversations about also the kind
00:27:55.280of women that compete in pageantry. I think there is a massive misconception that it's all Botox0.74
00:28:02.480and tits and ass. It's not. And I don't have a boob job. I'm going to throw it out there. I want0.99
00:28:12.340a boob job real bad i do i want the i want the lift and tuck is what i want i want the boobs0.99
00:28:19.520picked back up and then i want the belly pushed back in and i don't i don't feel bad saying that0.96
00:28:26.980and i also get all the botox yeah at the end of the day at the end of the day we're all the same
00:28:32.660right we're all similar it makes you feel better who are we to judge so i think the thing i think
00:28:38.620the thing is, at the end of the day, like I said, when I started, we will only progress towards
00:28:46.220equality as women when we as women stop judging the choices of other women. So if you want to be
00:28:54.680a social media momfluencer and you don't want to post about how much money you have or the support
00:28:59.840that you have, that's your prerogative. If you want to get Botox and a tummy tuck and a boob job,
00:29:06.160that's your prerogative if you want to compete in a pageant because that's the best way you
00:29:11.880find to reach the community that you want to reach that's your prerogative and I think you
00:29:17.560know if you want to start a podcast where you talk about mom fluencers and their choices that's also
00:29:25.140your prerogative you know I'm not here to to judge anybody and I think there's space for all of us
00:29:32.000And I think that's that's how we start to flip the script is we start recognizing that there's space for all of us and that there's room for all of our stories, regardless of what they look like and regardless of how we tell them.
00:29:47.500So hopefully that kind of, you know, hopefully these kind of conversations will continue to happen.
00:29:52.560And this is the first of many, you know, like I didn't have kids.
00:29:56.420I don't have kids. My husband and I don't have kids.
00:29:58.400We're not sure we're going to be able to have children, but that was never used against me at Mrs. America. You know, and so I think knowing that these stereotypes, these negative misconceptions are not the reality and then sharing that with other people through platforms like this.
00:30:19.040That's how we that's how we make change and how we, you know, we lift each other and we hopefully move towards, you know, a more inclusive world for all types of women and all the choices that we make.
00:30:33.980here is another question that i have as an insider in mrs america you know a lot of the things that
00:30:42.820the more mainstream media that i read you know did talk about kind of judging women on more
00:30:50.340traditional values what what do you feel like women are are being judged on and is judged the
00:30:56.780right word? I mean, I think judge is the right word. They're called judges. And I wouldn't say0.99
00:31:04.480that it's a negative connotation. I think when we hear the word judge, it can bring up like a
00:31:09.700icky feeling. Oh, you're judging me. But they are judges. It's like in a gymnastics competition.
00:31:14.900You know, they are scoring you. But I found, you know, I'm a 34 year old woman. I have a master's
00:31:22.960degree. I, um, you know, a small business owner, I'm an entrepreneur. I, you know, I speak multiple
00:31:30.300languages. I find that all of my questions and interview were very forward thinking, you know,
00:31:39.300what is your plan for growing this organization? Do you have a business plan? What, um, you know,
00:31:47.160you work in media? What is your, what is your experience with media and how do you plan to use
00:31:53.220that to bring in brands and sponsors and grow the face of Mrs. America? Um, you know, those are the
00:32:00.360questions that I was asked. Where have you traveled? Where have you lived in? Um, you know,
00:32:05.320I've lived in South Africa and in China and in Tanzania and, um, we had a judge from South
00:32:10.720Africa. So I was able to connect with him on my time there living and working with the Elizabeth
00:32:18.100Laser Pediatric AIDS Foundation. So, you know, I found that I wasn't, it wasn't like,
00:32:25.380how do you support your husband? How does your husband support you? Do you have children? You
00:32:32.120know, I didn't receive any of those questions. Obviously I can't speak for other women. They
00:32:36.240might have received those questions but it was more let me look at your bio you do submit a like
00:32:43.300you submit paperwork so you give you know your occupation where you went to school um your
00:32:49.840community involvement what your platform is you know what your plan is for why you want to be
00:32:57.140mrs america or mrs american um and so i found that the the process of being judged especially
00:33:05.720in the interview portion was very forward thinking, was very much, this is a business,
00:33:10.780you're a brand representative. How are you going to use this as a platform to further this business,
00:33:17.260to grow this business and to continue to keep this organization relevant? On stage,
00:33:26.360I, you know, yes, you're in an evening gown and you're in a swimsuit. But like I said,
00:33:30.460I felt like I was presenting the best version of myself I mean I wore a gown that was
00:33:39.340on the level of my wedding dress you know when I tried it on I cried like um I felt so beautiful
00:33:47.360and elegant and regal um and I didn't feel like I was being you know judged by just you know do my
00:33:57.500boobs look good in this or, you know, how's my walk in this? I felt, you know, I always say like
00:34:03.520swimsuit and evening gown, those competitions are one from the neck up. Um, it has nothing to do
00:34:11.020with, you know, what you look like. It's, are you confident? Are you engaged with the audience?
00:34:17.780Are you not afraid to make eye contact with the judges? You know, do you have a presence? Um,
00:34:25.660You know, when I won my state pageant, I did not have the first best body, the second best body, or even the third best body on the stage.
00:34:32.860I have a bunch of endocrine issues I have over the last three and a half years with the help of really amazing doctors at Cornell.
00:34:41.460And the right kind of diabetes medicine lost 60 pounds.
00:34:47.060And, you know, it's been it's been a long journey to be diagnosed, but I knew all I cared about was, am I having the most fun and am I presenting the healthiest version of myself, the best, strongest version of myself?
00:35:03.220And so I think if you think about it that way, then there's no judgment on antiquated values.
00:35:11.780You know, there are women with cellulite on the stage.
00:35:16.900There are, you know, my legs jiggle. And for me, it's like, well, if they're looking at my legs jiggling, then I'm not having enough fun because they should only be looking at my face and how much fun and how empowering this is.
00:35:30.040So I really didn't feel like I was being judged on antiquated values of femininity or, you know, being a wife or a woman.
00:35:41.020I really felt like I was just there presenting the best version of myself in that time of my life.
00:35:51.020And I feel like that can be said for pageantry in general.
00:35:55.200They want to know how you're going to it's a business, right?
00:40:08.660One thing that I did find interesting was that Mrs. America gives you this big platform, a big platform, and because Hannah Nealman Ballerina Farm is so recently postpartum, I genuinely think it would be interesting if she used this big platform to talk about how hard this period is for the majority of women.
00:40:37.480how our country and our culture needs to be kinder to postpartum women and how we can do
00:40:45.380a lot of things postpartum. I wrote books every time I had kids. We can do things,
00:40:52.920but we also need to be cared for. We need to be cared for. This is a hard period.
00:40:59.220Our bodies and our minds go through a lot, and maybe she will. Maybe she will. I hope she does.
00:41:05.900I hope she uses the fact that she did just have a baby and she's going to go be the Mrs. America.1.00
00:41:13.200She uses that as a way to talk about this for all of the millions of mothers who follow her.0.97