Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Sunday Nice Things： The Cult of Perfect

00:00:00.260 Happy Sunday! So I'm trying something a little bit new right now because I want to share awesome

00:00:08.240 content that is out there with you guys. I also want to just do kind of a Sunday mishmash of

00:00:14.440 nice things, good stuff that might not fit into the normal stuff that this podcast covers. So

00:00:21.020 I'm launching something called Sunday Nice Things and I'm either gonna drop someone else's podcast

00:00:27.860 in the feed that I love, or I might do an interview with an author of a book that I love.

00:00:33.720 Sunday Nice Things. You deserve nice things. I deserve nice things. We all deserve nice things.

00:00:39.820 And speaking of nice things, you know what's nice? The Sicilian Inheritance. Give it a pre-order.

00:00:44.820 Give it a pre-order. Get a free subscription to our sub stack over the influence. Just DM me the

00:00:50.580 receipt. So easy. Easy peasy. See, I can't stop. I can't stop because I'm a marketing monster and I

00:00:56.860 hate myself for it. But whatever. We've got a nice thing for you today. A nice thing. My friends

00:01:02.780 Virginia Sol Smith and Sarah Peterson make this podcast called The Cult of Perfect. It's a podcast,

00:01:10.080 it's a newsletter, and they explore the intersection of motherhood, public performance, and bodies.

00:01:16.800 And they're trying to figure out what our addiction to the idea of perfect says about us,

00:01:21.600 and most importantly the world that we live in. Both of these women are incredible journalists

00:01:28.460 they're great writers and their podcast which is on Substack which you do have to sign up for. It's

00:01:34.200 a podcast that you have to pay for which I'm totally in favor of because we should be paying

00:01:39.240 for content. So how can you hear more of this? Paid subscribers to the Cult of Perfect get six

00:01:45.000 podcast episodes, six, and they're real good. They're real good. The podcast that we are going

00:01:51.860 to listen to today has a lot to do with what we talk about on our show. It's called Let Them Beige,

00:01:59.960 right? Right? And, you know, obviously, it's a lot about influencers' obsession with beige,

00:02:07.300 with boring colors. They're talking about minimalism. They're talking about how a lot

00:02:13.180 of influencers cosplay poverty when they talk about minimalism. This episode is good. You're

00:02:19.880 going to love having Virginia and Sarah in your ears. I love having them in my life. I'm hoping

00:02:25.760 that we pretty soon have a hot tub party. We've been discussing this. Old ladies in a hot tub.

00:02:31.820 Again, it is the cult of perfect and you can find it on SoapStack. Happy listening. 1.00

00:02:43.180 is always looking at a screen. I rarely read her books before bed and I often forget to brush her

00:02:52.700 teeth. I'm a good mom. You're listening to Cult of Perfect. This is a podcast about the intersection

00:03:00.040 of motherhood, public performance, and bodies. I'm Virginia Sol Smith. I write the newsletter

00:03:04.840 Burnt Toast. I host the Burnt Toast podcast and I'm the author of Fat Talk, Parenting in the Age

00:03:09.540 of diet culture. I'm Sarah Peterson. I write the newsletter In Pursuit of Clean Countertops

00:03:15.440 and I'm the author of Momfluenced. Virginia, what do you think of when you hear the word

00:03:23.140 minimalism? I think my main answer is beige. Okay. I think beige, neutral cream tones

00:03:31.380 is a big part of my answer. I also think of like something I'm not doing well at.

00:03:37.760 I have felt a lot of pressure to be more minimalistic in my life and I just am not

00:03:45.380 going to be I think of it as the Montessori toy shelves where your kids have like one toy per

00:03:51.420 cubby and you rotate them and that's all they play with of like very spare no clutter ever

00:03:59.080 right anywhere an absence of stuff for sure yeah profound absence of stuff and like in wardrobes

00:04:05.140 I think about it a lot there too and I think about it as like you have just like the perfect jeans

00:04:10.000 and the perfect white t-shirt which like you aren't putting spaghetti sauce on I'm wearing

00:04:13.740 a white shirt right now I just ate lunch I you can't see me right now but it is not great right

00:04:18.640 right right right like so it's like both having very few possessions and being able to maintain

00:04:27.240 them impeccably. I'm struck by it's also something you can be good at. Like it's an aesthetic you can

00:04:36.900 excel at. They're grading you and not on a curve. Like you have to meet a lot of benchmarks to

00:04:43.060 achieve minimalism, like capital M in minimalism. The one cashmere sweater you'll have for the rest

00:04:50.460 of your life the only pair of black pants you'll ever need like there is a real fetishization

00:04:57.240 of like one's ability to ideally curate one's existence I think when it comes to minimalism

00:05:06.820 and yet also be on trend right like the one black pair of pants they're not gonna be whatever cut

00:05:14.960 of black pants we were wearing five years ago they're somehow gonna like morph with you like

00:05:19.980 is it a straight leg? Is it a bootleg? And I know you've written about this before when it comes to

00:05:24.840 capsule wardrobes, but it also obviously plays into this idea that, you know, your body or your

00:05:31.460 home's needs or whatever it is you're aestheticizing never changes. I can't achieve a minimalist

00:05:37.880 wardrobe because I cannot reliably expect to wear the same clothing size from one season to the 1.00

00:05:43.060 next and most women most people with bodies can't really like things just don't fit the same way 0.94

00:05:50.580 that they did six months ago in any direction you know it's just things don't fit the same way like

00:05:55.100 bodies are changing all the time totally the other piece of it that we didn't touch on is that

00:05:58.980 minimalism is very linked to like a kind of moral social responsibility you're cutting down on your

00:06:07.220 consumption because you care about the planet because you care about not buying things from

00:06:11.860 factories with bad working conditions. So there's a lot of guilt. There's both like this aesthetic

00:06:18.740 failing and this moral failing when you're not achieving it. Totally. So you said you feel like

00:06:25.720 it's something you don't do well, but do you see yourself adopting minimalist either aesthetics or

00:06:31.740 I guess ideologies in any aspects of your life? I think I'm actually like on a minimalism

00:06:39.020 divestment journey at the moment, which I'm excited about. But I think for sure, I've been

00:06:44.100 very seduced by it off and on over the years. Like for sure, experiments with capsule wardrobes.

00:06:49.780 I think also motherhood. I think I was one of the sort of bougie new moms who was like,

00:06:57.140 we're not going to have a lot of plastic. We don't need a lot of stuff. And then of course,

00:07:02.700 it's 2 a.m. and your baby won't stop crying. And you're like, what can I Amazon Prime here

00:07:06.940 to fix this right away oh i know like with my first daughter we didn't buy a bassinet we were

00:07:14.220 like she'll just sleep in the crib right and then like the first night we got home from the hospital

00:07:18.520 it was clear that she was not willing to sleep in the crib right away and we amazon primed like

00:07:23.720 a 150 like crappy plastic bassinet that she also would not sleep it so i'm not saying buying the

00:07:29.540 thing solves the thing because it definitely very often doesn't but then there was this triple

00:07:35.600 like I failed because I bought the thing that didn't work and I shouldn't have been trying to

00:07:39.320 buy the things that I'm trying to buy anything you know yes but I also think like for a long time

00:07:44.260 I tried really hard to decorate my house pretty minimally like a lot of neutrals like cream and

00:07:50.960 navy and not a lot of pops of color and the more I've started to embrace like pops of color and

00:07:56.840 like clothing I wear the more color I'm bringing into our house and especially like these days you

00:08:02.780 know my house is like totally under my control decor wise which is pretty awesome yeah it's me

00:08:08.480 and my two daughters and we are you know people who like color and like you know a little bit of

00:08:14.540 whimsy and yeah I've been like why was I holding back why was every throw pillow cream also we have

00:08:20.800 children that was a bad idea right I think I've been like holding back on joy a little bit in the

00:08:27.380 quest for this minimalist aesthetic at times I think I'm entranced by the idea that minimalism

00:08:35.540 will allow space for more like living or more joy in sort of like a flip-flop of that idea

00:08:46.320 like the whole idea of clean countertops like there's something so tantalizing about a completely

00:08:52.360 bare space. Yes. Particularly in a house populated by children. Because it's work you don't have to

00:08:58.980 do. Yeah. Yeah. It either means you did the work of making the countertops clean. Yep. Or you're

00:09:03.620 not looking at your countertops thinking, well, I have to clean up all that shit. Right. Like 1.00

00:09:07.180 evidence of a to-do list or whatever. I think minimalism also gets tricky in, you know, the

00:09:15.780 desire to have the right beautiful thing in a space. Basically, when there's like fewer things

00:09:24.980 in a space, I think the pressure rises to make sure those things are, you know, the very best

00:09:31.800 things that things can be. This is how we go down the internet rabbit holes of like the perfect

00:09:37.220 wool sweater. Right. It doesn't actually save you labor. Yes, you're buying less, but you're

00:09:41.760 putting the same amount of time you would put into buying six things, you're putting into buying one

00:09:46.040 thing and still feeling anxious and stressed about whether it's the perfect thing. Do you remember

00:09:51.180 the phenomenon that was kinfolk by any chance? I don't exactly. Basically, kinfolk was this

00:09:58.020 magazine that started by two Mormons, which, you know, which is always an interesting little

00:10:03.240 tidbit. I didn't see that coming for some reason. I feel like Mormons are the anti-minimalists. You

00:10:07.180 have a million children. You're trying to cure all this wealth. Right, right, right. That's

00:10:10.560 interesting. They since, you know, got divorced, but that's neither here nor there. It was this

00:10:15.120 magazine that was very much like, I don't know, like jam jars being used to hold flowers in.

00:10:22.540 Oh man, I did that so much in the early 2000s. I mean, I still do. So many mason jars. Yes,

00:10:28.880 yes, yes. Mason jars. It was like gingham tablecloths. Very much like Simplicity is King.

00:10:36.120 It really became huge early to mid-aughts.

00:10:40.320 And I think you can see its influence still in home goods lines at Target.

00:10:46.440 So there's an article written by Lisa Abend in Vanity Fair,

00:10:49.900 sort of taking stock of Kinfolk's influence on the culture.

00:10:53.920 And I would like you to read a little passage.

00:10:57.560 All right.

00:10:58.600 Kinfolk is famously about intentionality,

00:11:01.280 about a kind of wholesome, slow living that exults in deliberately curated moments,

00:11:07.040 carefully selected objects, and, as its twee tagline once read, small gatherings.

00:11:13.100 Like all lifestyle magazines, it traffics in aspiration.

00:11:16.760 And if, in the past eight years or so, you have found yourself craving a precisely sliced piece of avocado toast

00:11:22.980 or a laundry line from which to cunningly hang your linen bedsheets in the sun-dappled afternoon,

00:11:28.900 you probably have kinfolk to thank for it.

00:11:31.280 But the seductions featured on its pages have always been aimed as much at the soul as the

00:11:36.320 body. Through intention, Kinfolk's austerely beautiful pages, Whisper, lies not just a pretty

00:11:42.460 room or a lovely outfit, but a truer expression of the self, something more meaningful, more,

00:11:48.220 as the marketers now put it, authentic.

00:11:51.380 And you're going to have me on the avocado toast.

00:11:54.620 I'm really stuck on the linen bedsheets in the Sundaples afternoon. 1.00

00:11:59.040 Yeah, no, I never fell for that shit. I'm sorry. 0.99

00:12:00.840 That's not, that just sounds hard.

00:12:02.840 That sounds exhausting.

00:12:04.280 Who's carrying them in and out?

00:12:05.920 How are you planning your life around the weather for drying clothes?

00:12:08.500 Like, dryers are a gift to humanity.

00:12:11.720 It's so true.

00:12:12.800 I understand the romance of that, but it just sounds like a lot more domestic labor.

00:12:18.600 I will say what really strikes me about this passage is the last line,

00:12:22.740 a truer expression of the self, something more meaningful,

00:12:26.360 which sort of harkens back to what I was saying about like this idea if we rid our environments

00:12:34.020 and our bodies of excess that there will be more room for like truer forms of living if that makes

00:12:42.640 sense. I think it's a fallacy but I do think that is what compelled me towards minimalism

00:12:49.940 in the past. And yet again it's like you have to buy the linen bedsheets to do it right like

00:12:55.900 there's still this implied consumption in this version of minimalism. There's such a disconnect

00:13:01.980 there. I mean, the lifestyle magazines are not showing you that the stylist had to stand there

00:13:07.220 at the laundry line, like perfectly hanging the linen bedsheets, like steaming them out so that

00:13:12.920 they would hang just so in the sun dappled light. And also why should clutter or stuff rob us of

00:13:21.380 human connection like I think it's a really flawed equation it's strange to me that I just sort of

00:13:29.140 accepted that without really interrogating it because it doesn't make logical sense we were

00:13:34.360 just discussing off mic about how like often parenting children you feel like it's either

00:13:39.220 like the highest highs or the lowest not a lot in between but when you're getting to the highest

00:13:43.360 highest part often things are messy right like they're building a fort or doing something with

00:13:48.700 Paw Patrol characters or whatever and you're like embracing it and enjoying it with them and that's

00:13:53.300 like the connection is that there's some mess. Totally. So as I've been like rethinking my house

00:13:59.860 a little bit because again now that I'm the only adult here it's this exciting opportunity to you

00:14:05.100 know redo some things which is very freeing but I did realize one of the mistakes I made really

00:14:10.260 early on in that process was I was redoing one corner of our downstairs and I moved the girl's

00:14:16.140 art table upstairs to one of the bedrooms. I was like, then you won't have to worry about

00:14:20.760 cleaning it up because you can just leave it messy because it's in that room. We can close

00:14:23.520 the door. I mean, fast forward like six weeks and I was like, oh, they don't make art anymore.

00:14:28.440 Totally. Totally. They never think to go upstairs and do it. They're downstairs with me. We're

00:14:32.960 together. We want to be together. We do still keep like the bigger, messier art supplies up

00:14:37.560 there. But I ended up getting a little table for the corner of the dining room where we can have

00:14:41.980 like markers and tape it absolutely does not look as beautifully styled as the dining room looked

00:14:48.000 before I brought back the art table but it's obviously better for my children yeah to be able

00:14:53.760 to live in all rooms of their home and not be like if I wish to make art I should go tuck myself away

00:15:00.160 to my studio my six-year-old got really into calling it that's our art studio upstairs but

00:15:04.560 we were never using it this whole conversation has been really dominated by the idea of choice

00:15:09.420 Like, are you buying into minimalist aesthetics or ideals?

00:15:13.260 If you are, why?

00:15:14.500 How has it impacted you?

00:15:16.240 And so I kind of want to take that idea of choice and think more about that.

00:15:21.440 And I've got a snippet from an essay written by Stephanie Land, who's the author of Made

00:15:28.300 and Class.

00:15:29.900 And I thought it was just an interesting perspective that, you know, we haven't touched on yet.

00:15:34.100 Okay, so this is from a piece Stephanie wrote for the New York Times.

00:15:37.400 She writes,

00:16:07.400 foundation of support of people who had loved me growing up. A painting I'd done as a child that

00:16:12.420 my mom had carefully framed and hung in our house. A set of antique Raggedy Ann and Andy dolls my

00:16:18.060 ferret once chewed an eye out of when I was 15. Artwork my mom had collected over the decade we

00:16:23.300 lived in Alaska. Things I grew up with that brought me back to a time of living a carefree life.

00:16:30.380 That's heartbreaking. Yeah it's a reframing of quote-unquote stuff. I think we are

00:16:37.260 probably in a similar bubble, you know, a similar class race bubble that thinks of stuff with this

00:16:44.720 sort of disdain. Like, you know, we should be better than our stuff and our stuff should not

00:16:51.080 control us. But also like we have the privilege to, you know, rid our lives of stuff we don't

00:16:59.280 want or need. We have the privilege to think about like preference in terms of what we're

00:17:04.340 surrounded with. Oh, 100%. I think this perspective is missing in a lot of conversations about

00:17:10.340 minimalism. Minimalism is almost rich people cosplaying poverty in a way. There was some

00:17:16.280 book I had, it was like a design inspiration, beautiful coffee table type of home decor book

00:17:22.120 that I got given years ago when I had bought my first house and was like very on the linen burlap

00:17:27.660 mason jar aesthetic. And I think my mom or someone picked it up and was like, this is clearly what

00:17:32.660 you're trying to do so here's a lovely book yep and I remember reading through it and on every

00:17:37.200 other page they kept referring to things as humble like this humble bread basket this humble apron

00:17:44.580 yeah and I was like oh this is so gross yeah it's so gross it's so gross to think of like

00:17:51.220 because something looks sort of rustic that it's like humble and hard-working and earnest salt of

00:17:56.700 the earth and morally superior yes when actually like Stephanie was writing about a time in her

00:18:01.520 life when she couldn't afford like groceries and school tuition and rent probably just having more

00:18:06.960 cash would be great right right right there's no morality in that it's just like people need to be

00:18:11.460 able to afford their lives do you know that marie and twinette do you know this story where she

00:18:16.720 created basically she created this whole like it was like cosplaying like poor people essentially

00:18:23.740 she created this whole village scene this quote-unquote humble village and she had real

00:18:31.020 people like populate the village and she and her rich aristocratic you know friends would dress up 0.78

00:18:38.220 like poor people and like play poor people in this whole elaborate like village that must have cost

00:18:45.280 you know jillions of dollars to recreate and yeah I just thought of that because I do think there's

00:18:51.420 this bizarre connection between wealthy people you know like rough hewn wood and yeah exposed

00:19:01.680 beams like there's a lot there yes wow and it I mean it sounds horrific what she did and I mean

00:19:11.100 of course it was it was Marie Antoinette like she's not famously known for being a good person

00:19:15.300 but also that's not that different from what a lot of like Instagram influencers are doing

00:19:20.480 I mean, is that that's different from Ballerina Farm with her like exposed plaster and lath walls?

00:19:26.420 And as you're saying this too, I'm also just thinking how our desire for minimalism,

00:19:30.340 like how much does that have to do with genuine environmental sustainability?

00:19:34.860 Like arguably, does it benefit the planet at all for Ballerina Farm not to insulate her house?

00:19:40.220 Probably not.

00:19:41.020 And then how much has to do with this appearance of goodness and virtue and caring about these things?

00:19:46.680 This is one I consistently struggle with.

00:19:50.520 Same.

00:19:51.200 I mean, we're recording this a couple weeks before Christmas, 0.99

00:19:55.780 and we have a shitload of kid shit in our house. 1.00

00:20:00.740 So much. 1.00

00:20:01.340 An obscene amount.

00:20:02.980 So many stuffed animals.

00:20:04.420 I think they breed.

00:20:05.900 I think they breed.

00:20:06.880 It really stresses me out.

00:20:08.700 Like, when I think about it, yes, there's always more.

00:20:11.060 And I have, like, a bag in the basement that, like, no, today, they're going today.

00:20:16.120 but like I'll do this thing where I collect them and I'll store them and if nobody asks about them

00:20:20.860 for like you know months or whatever you get rid of them I have three American girl dolls in a bag

00:20:26.020 like that in the basement like I feel like I'm hiding a body in my basement three tiny bodies 0.76

00:20:31.780 two bodies two bodies which ones Nenea and then one of the welly wishers oh okay because my girls 0.99

00:20:40.020 are just not doll yeah they don't care they stuffed animals believe me by the thousands right right 1.00

00:20:45.160 But they, you know, both at various points begged for these American Girl dolls.

00:20:49.340 And as a former big American Girl doll fan, I assumed this was going to be a huge part of their childhood. 0.99

00:20:54.180 And they do not give a shit. 0.99

00:20:55.640 And I finally was like, I'm going to donate them. 0.99

00:20:59.020 But for now, I'm just secretly hiding their bodies to make sure we're really done.

00:21:05.640 Because it's like American Girl dolls are expensive.

00:21:08.380 Like these were like your biggest Christmas gift on your birthday or whatever they were.

00:21:11.920 Right, right.

00:21:12.480 Of course, of course, of course.

00:21:13.340 Clean them up and donate them.

00:21:14.440 No, yes. Well, my point is that I feel all the shame about, oh God, I mean, you know,

00:21:22.640 raising my kids to not value their belongings, raising my kids to not have the opportunity to

00:21:28.680 be bored more often, to foster their creative, imaginative facilities, raising my kids not to

00:21:34.860 be good environmental stewards. I'm bailing on all of that right now. Yes, yes. And like,

00:21:39.960 Yeah, every friend.

00:21:40.920 And yet, am I getting fidgets for them?

00:21:44.620 Yes.

00:21:45.040 Yes, I am.

00:21:46.400 So I really struggle with this one because like fossil fuels.

00:21:52.420 Thinking about another one of the central lures for minimalism for me,

00:21:55.760 and I imagine many parents, mothers specifically,

00:21:58.860 is this idea of control or at least the illusion of control.

00:22:04.280 I'm thinking back to that like anxious new mom mode of we don't want a lot of stuff,

00:22:08.400 don't give us a lot of stuff.

00:22:09.420 Like, I think some of that was, like, trying to control—I feel like I thought if I could make motherhood this aesthetically pleasing experience, it would feel more like me in some way.

00:22:22.900 Like, less like I was sacrificing who I thought I was pre-kids.

00:22:27.120 Does that make any sense?

00:22:28.800 I think it does.

00:22:30.520 Like, I didn't want to be suddenly this, like, Fisher-Price covered person that wasn't who I was before.

00:22:36.000 I was a lot more eco before I had kids and I've really abandoned so much of that.

00:22:41.420 But, you know, I was very like reusable tote bags in farmer's markets back then.

00:22:45.820 And I was like, we will still be that way. 0.99

00:22:47.700 Damn it. 0.99

00:22:48.260 Yeah. 0.99

00:22:48.600 And then very quickly, I was like, no, cloth diapers are not the way.

00:22:51.560 Right.

00:22:52.160 For me.

00:22:52.700 I mean, great.

00:22:53.000 Totally, totally, totally.

00:22:54.500 And it was what it was.

00:22:55.640 And I think that's tricky, too, because like, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting

00:22:59.160 to retain our, you know, aesthetic identities and, you know, wanting to resist the onslaught

00:23:07.900 of, you know, Fisher-Price ugliness.

00:23:11.240 I don't know.

00:23:12.100 But I then think there was like this very slippery slope between like, I'm trying to

00:23:16.680 hold on to some shred of who I was before I did this.

00:23:19.640 And then somehow that got blurred with, I want to be the perfect Montessori mom who's

00:23:24.820 raising a preschooler who's already reading and doing all these advanced things. 0.97

00:23:28.940 And so that's why I'm resisting the Fisher-Price crap. So, like, really who I was before was apparently on track to become a very, like, elitist. 0.53

00:23:41.040 Yeah, yeah. No, I get it.

00:23:43.060 Controlling mother. So I'm willing to say that, and that sounds like rebelling against it and being like, fine, bring on the calico critters.

00:23:51.000 Like, you know, that has felt good and liberating, except then I have a house full of squishmallows and calico critters.

00:23:58.940 and a couple of American Girl dolls in the basement.

00:24:07.000 The other piece of this is the way the minimalist conversation intersects with, like, diet culture.

00:24:14.640 We are told as women, and I mean, all people are told this, but particularly conditioned women,

00:24:19.140 like, too long for less in so many ways, to take up less space in so many ways.

00:24:24.940 and yeah the control piece of this I mean there's just like a lot where it's like you

00:24:31.580 are trying to sort of winnow yourself into this like tiny clean surfaces like very elitist very

00:24:40.260 yeah minimalist existence on the subject of control I wanted to read this from a book called

00:24:46.900 The Longing for Less which I read as part of Monflin's research and the author Kyle Chayka

00:24:52.940 writes, quote, no single English language word quite captures this persistent feeling of being

00:24:59.860 overwhelmed and yet alienated, which is maybe why minimalism has become so widespread. I began

00:25:06.440 thinking of this universal feeling as the longing for less. It's an abstract, almost nostalgic

00:25:11.740 desire, a pull towards a different, simpler world, not past nor future, neither utopian nor dystopian.

00:25:18.940 this more authentic world is always just beyond our current existence in a place we can never

00:25:24.700 quite reach i just feel like there's so much wrapped up in that longing for less and i have

00:25:29.580 like empathy about the nostalgia and the like things we've lost feeling i think that's something

00:25:35.600 we all struggle with especially the world is this increasingly harrowing place yeah the alienation

00:25:41.360 peace feels important but then there's also the absolute impossibility you're yeah you're never

00:25:46.600 we're going to get there. Totally. And how I think it also ties very directly to consumerism,

00:25:51.700 because I think the impossible to achieve minimalism that we're being sold,

00:25:57.140 we can only hope to achieve it by buying X, you know, by buying the perfect whatever it may be.

00:26:03.440 It is inextricably linked to capitalism and consumerism in that way.

00:26:08.080 Well, Sarah spoke with Christine Platt, author of The Afro-Minimalist Guide to Living with Less

00:26:13.480 and co-author of the new novel, Rebecca, Not Becky, which Sarah blurbed, writing,

00:26:17.940 It's impossible not to laugh out loud because we all know that mother.

00:26:21.940 Christine currently serves as the executive director for Jacqueline Woodson's nonprofit

00:26:26.000 residency for artists of the global majority, Baldwin for the Arts. She's also a member of

00:26:31.220 the Association of Writers and Writing Programs, Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators,

00:26:36.700 Association of Black Women Historians, and the Association for the Study of African American

00:26:41.200 Life and History. She also serves as an ambassador for Smithsonian's National Museum of African

00:26:46.820 American History and Culture. So I cannot wait to hear this conversation.

00:26:53.540 Well, Christine, I'm so psyched to have you today. I wonder if we could start by just having you

00:26:59.400 introduce yourself and telling us a little bit about your work. Sure. Well, first of all,

00:27:04.640 I'm so happy to be here. A little bit about me and my work. I am an author. I am an advocate.

00:27:11.200 and I'm also known as the Afro-Minimalist.

00:27:14.860 I started that journey a while ago

00:27:17.800 and I guess it's been almost six years now.

00:27:20.960 And about two years ago,

00:27:22.540 I decided to write a book about my journey

00:27:26.380 and it just became its own animal.

00:27:30.680 It's just really special.

00:27:32.360 I, you know, still focus on, you know,

00:27:35.560 really trying to encourage people

00:27:37.100 to live with only what they need,

00:27:39.520 use and love the Afro-minimalist is an extension of the advocacy work that I do in the climate 0.75

00:27:45.800 change and sustainability space. So trying to get people to make those connections between our

00:27:51.540 consumption and the harm that it may have on the environment, you know, aside from our finances

00:27:58.080 and other stuff, right? And clutter and all these other things, like really getting people,

00:28:03.780 you know, to understand how it intersects with all these different areas of our lives.

00:28:08.140 I love how like from the very beginning, you're talking about the interconnectedness of all of

00:28:13.320 these things. Because I think a lot of times people view minimalism as sort of like an exercise

00:28:19.660 in perfection and control. And like, especially the way it shows up on social media, at least,

00:28:27.160 you know, in some ways it shows up in social media. It's like all white, all beige, no clutter,

00:28:33.900 no mess. It's empty. I love to talk about the aesthetics of minimalism versus the practice,

00:28:41.720 right? I mean, I think so many of us who live with less, we know so much more now than we did

00:28:47.120 when we started, right? I mean, I started in the same kind of way, like, oh my goodness, these,

00:28:52.800 you know, these little squares or whether it was on Pinterest or whatever. I'm like,

00:28:56.800 God, these people look so peaceful, right? Their house is so clean. It must be the answer

00:29:01.680 to all of my problems and troubles.

00:29:04.500 And I remember trying to sort of mirror 0.98

00:29:07.080 that barren aesthetic.

00:29:09.320 And my home was like mostly just,

00:29:12.600 you know, white on white on white.

00:29:14.440 And I was like, oh my God, this is so miserable. 1.00

00:29:17.020 And that's kind of how I became the Afro-minimalist. 0.99

00:29:18.880 I was like, I have to have some color. 0.96

00:29:20.260 I have to have some fabric.

00:29:21.420 I have to have some texture.

00:29:22.720 I have to have some culture, you know.

00:29:25.480 It was certainly surprising for me

00:29:27.100 to sort of put myself out there as this person

00:29:30.720 and say like,

00:29:31.680 Hey, if there's anyone else who also is struggling with the aesthetics of minimalism, here's how you can do it with color and just have like a flood of, you know, folks following and having these conversations.

00:29:43.580 And, you know, one of the things that I learned on this journey is that the aesthetics of minimalism versus the practice of minimalism are just so entirely different.

00:29:56.420 You know, the practice of minimalism is conscious consumerism.

00:30:00.580 consumerism it is having only those things that you need use and love or even those things that

00:30:06.520 spark joy I don't know if you saw the recent headline where Marie is like yeah I'm done with

00:30:13.320 all that kind of gonna have a messy house I have three kids it's too much right and I applaud her

00:30:19.540 for her honesty and authenticity around that but I think that's what so many of us practitioners

00:30:25.360 have been saying for so long, right?

00:30:28.040 It's like for me to try and mirror the aesthetic

00:30:31.680 of someone who doesn't have, you know, a kid in college

00:30:35.380 or for someone else to try and mirror an aesthetic

00:30:38.120 of someone that doesn't have three kids,

00:30:40.380 it's just not possible, right?

00:30:42.780 And we end up really putting a lot of restrictions

00:30:46.140 and limitations on a practice

00:30:48.120 that is supposed to be about ease.

00:30:50.780 Do you have any, I don't know,

00:30:52.300 ideas about why minimalism as an aesthetic has dominated so many momfluencer spaces,

00:30:59.100 because it doesn't make a ton of sense. If you think about like, life with kids is inherently

00:31:04.600 messy and clutter abounds. It's not empty. It's not quiet. It's not particularly calm.

00:31:11.800 You know, it's so wild because I don't know any minimalist that lives the way that,

00:31:16.260 you know, these photographs look. And I feel like I know some of the leading

00:31:20.580 sort of minimalist practitioners with huge followings and you know the whole nine and I

00:31:25.980 think the reason that those images are so compelling to people are the same way they

00:31:33.560 were compelling to me which is I am just so overwhelmed right it's like this idea if I could

00:31:42.880 just get my house in order I would have less overwhelm if I could just get my house in order

00:31:50.220 I could be more calm. And so it becomes this ideal, you know, gosh, they must not have any

00:31:56.880 stress because they don't have any clutter. And it's just not true. And it's also just an

00:32:03.800 unrealistic ideal, I think, anesthetic to want to ascribe to, unless that's your thing. I mean,

00:32:11.280 there are people who are just like, I grew up, you know, my parents were hoarders,

00:32:16.980 and I can only have like three things in my house

00:32:20.040 and really three things.

00:32:21.340 Like that's a different type of, you know,

00:32:24.360 sort of approach and lifestyle choice

00:32:26.560 that folks make based on, you know,

00:32:29.520 whether they grew up with scarcity or abundance.

00:32:31.340 But I think the average person sort of just,

00:32:34.340 I don't know, like looking at a photo on Pinterest

00:32:37.760 and saying, man, you know what?

00:32:40.200 I just want to have three books.

00:32:41.740 I can do it.

00:32:42.760 You know, it's like you are setting yourself up. 0.97

00:32:45.300 So I guess for me, you know, one of the reasons I think mothers in particular gravitate towards

00:32:54.480 these images that don't necessarily reflect anybody's lived reality is because mothers

00:33:00.060 and caregivers in this country have so little control over like really big systemic things.

00:33:07.740 And so I feel like, at least for me, there have been times in my life where I'm like,

00:33:13.420 okay, I can't control like the lack of universal paid leave.

00:33:16.740 I can't control the fact that most people can't find affordable quality childcare,

00:33:20.840 but I can control like my countertops or whatever.

00:33:26.040 You know what I mean?

00:33:27.500 Yeah.

00:33:28.120 And so in a way I understand and empathize with the aspirational side of the aesthetic.

00:33:34.960 But how do you think aspiring toward an aesthetic versus a practice

00:33:40.420 can sort of set people up to fail?

00:33:43.420 Oh, man, it is absolutely a setup. And I say that as someone who was set up, right? You know, I think what happens is, you know, again, like you're expecting to somehow achieve this promise, right?

00:33:59.600 So whether it is I just have too much, you know, stuff and I want to have nothing in this room because I want my room to look just like this room on Pinterest.

00:34:10.740 They only have one chair and a desk and a lamp.

00:34:13.780 And my God, this looks so peaceful.

00:34:15.420 Right.

00:34:15.920 Yeah.

00:34:16.400 And then you do that and you sit in that room with that desk and that chair and that lamp.

00:34:20.680 And you're like, I am absolutely miserable.

00:34:24.700 Right.

00:34:25.220 That is the setup.

00:34:26.620 This happens with planners all the time.

00:34:28.560 Right. 0.91

00:34:28.820 Like the reason planners, mothers in particular, you know, buy so many planners is like what they're really just looking for a way to get organized.

00:34:40.360 And there's just so much stuff, right?

00:34:42.340 Yep.

00:34:42.700 But it's the same thing if you don't write in the planner, if you don't use the planner, if you don't, right?

00:34:47.320 Yep.

00:34:47.580 Like all the planner is going to do is possibly make you see, you know, have a visual representation of what you're already feeling.

00:34:55.840 but it's not going to make your life simpler, right? And so I think it's kind of the same thing

00:35:02.460 when we ascribe to a certain aesthetic, hoping for especially some sort of like physical or

00:35:09.900 emotional outcome, you know, that we can be very disappointed when it doesn't deliver

00:35:17.320 what we thought the promise was. Right, right. And it turns into sort of like a

00:35:22.900 self-blame spiral. Like I just didn't do it right. I think what also happens is folks try and do it

00:35:28.620 and then they realize they can't. And then they feel like, oh, I failed. I can't be a minimalist.

00:35:32.340 Right. So I would hear from people all the time. Oh, I just can't be a minimalist. I tried. Oh,

00:35:38.000 I don't want to be a minimalist. It just looks too complicated. Oh, it's too much. It's too much.

00:35:42.480 The minute I remove that word minimalism and say, well, can you just try to buy less things? Or

00:35:47.900 can you try to be a more conscious consumer? Can you just be more mindful of your spending?

00:35:53.100 All of a sudden, people can do it. Or can you let go of one thing a day? Who said you had to

00:35:59.480 let it all go in a weekend? Getting people to understand that we all sort of operate and are

00:36:06.040 motivated by many different things. And this idea that you can't do something, right? If you do want

00:36:13.520 to simplify a particular space, you can do it. You just have to do it your way and on your terms

00:36:20.600 in order to achieve that satisfaction I think so many people are looking for.

00:36:25.960 Can you get really clear on how you define minimalism as a practice versus an aesthetic?

00:36:32.920 Because I think that's like the linchpin to everything that we're talking about.

00:36:37.580 Yeah, I mean, for me, minimalism is truly just living with only those things that I need use

00:36:42.260 and love, right? And paying it forward with those things that I don't. There are so many unofficial

00:36:47.040 rules around the practice because like everyone does it differently, right? And I should also say

00:36:53.180 a lot of practitioners, you know, you also grow and evolve as a quote unquote minimalist. Like

00:36:59.600 I'm going through that now as a new empty nester, right? Yeah. There are just certain things that I

00:37:06.200 don't need anymore. And you know, what do I do with this room? She's only here, you know,

00:37:11.580 a few times a year now. And it's just like, that evolution, I think we have to allow ourselves some

00:37:19.160 grace, extend ourselves some grace, and extend grace to those of us who, you know, those

00:37:25.240 practitioners who we follow and allow them to also grow and evolve in their practice and in their

00:37:30.340 work. I think mothers in particular, get stuck on like, okay, so my kid goes to a birthday party

00:37:37.640 and comes home with like a goodie bag full of like plastic, you know, crap. How do you practice 0.98

00:37:44.680 letting go of control? And also, you know, like saying no to things and saying yes to the things

00:37:51.980 you want in your life and saying no to the things you don't want in your life without getting

00:37:55.260 like, especially if you're like, a type A person, or you have type A tendencies, how do you not

00:38:00.340 get into that danger zone in terms of practicing minimalism?

00:38:04.900 Yeah, no is a powerful word, right?

00:38:07.100 I mean, what I know is you cannot bring it in the house.

00:38:10.940 You know, the minute you bring it in the house

00:38:13.480 or you hold onto it for too long,

00:38:15.720 you start to feel this sense of responsibility for it, right?

00:38:19.500 It turns from the bag of like little knickknacks that,

00:38:24.320 you know, these party favors into,

00:38:27.640 oh, those are the party favors from Tommy's third birthday.

00:38:30.780 And so I think it's important for us to understand our own unique psychologies of ownership.

00:38:37.520 So what I mean by that is, if we continue with this example of the party favors, right?

00:38:45.200 I know myself and my unique psychologies of ownership.

00:38:50.140 I know that if I bring it in the house, I'm going to end up holding on to it because I

00:38:55.420 feel responsible for it.

00:38:56.760 Now it becomes, you know, less of a bag of party favors and more nostalgic, right?

00:39:04.760 Like, oh my God, he's, I can't wait to show him this little dinosaur when he's 18.

00:39:10.520 Like, really?

00:39:11.400 He's going to be 18 in 15 years?

00:39:13.040 You're about to hold on to this little dinosaur, right?

00:39:15.080 But like, you have to know yourself.

00:39:16.780 So for me, the party favors don't come in the house.

00:39:20.160 I also don't have a lot of like dressers and drawers and baskets and bins and things like

00:39:26.340 that because one of the things that I discovered again about my own psychology of ownership

00:39:31.280 is that those are storage facilities for me. They are not places of organization. They are nothing

00:39:38.660 other than I can hide something in there. And so again, I think, you know, it's so important for us

00:39:46.340 to understand ourselves. And it's not really about control when we look at it from that angle.

00:39:52.460 So it's more of what works for me and what does not work for me, right?

00:39:57.120 I know we talked about Marie Kondo earlier and, you know, her folding technique is like,

00:40:04.560 that's like huge, right?

00:40:06.120 It was like a big part of her work.

00:40:08.160 And people were dumbfounded when I would say like, oh, I love Marie Kondo.

00:40:12.880 And they were like, oh my God, I want to see how much you, like, let me see the drawer

00:40:16.100 that you folded.

00:40:16.940 And I was like, I don't have drawers now.

00:40:18.240 I don't do the whole folding thing.

00:40:19.560 But I love KonMari-ing my closet.

00:40:21.920 And they're like, why don't you have drawers?

00:40:24.780 And I said, well, when I went through my whole decluttering process, what I continued to find in drawers were things that I no longer needed, used and loved and just had them out of sight.

00:40:37.020 Yeah.

00:40:37.400 So in order for me, you know, to not hoard and do those things, because I also want to talk about that, the definition of hoarding is holding on to anything for future use.

00:40:47.880 I think we think of hoarding as like, oh, we're crammed in our house and we can't move because there's so much stuff.

00:40:53.360 Well, the clinical definition of hoarding is holding on to something for future use.

00:40:57.300 Future use, yeah.

00:40:57.400 Whether it's a plastic dinosaur.

00:40:59.120 Right.

00:40:59.920 That you think you're going to have at Tommy's 18th graduation party, right?

00:41:05.160 Or, you know, the stuff in the drawer is like, oh, I should probably get rid of this, you know, marathon t-shirt, right?

00:41:12.540 Oh, but let me just put it in here.

00:41:14.820 I might wear it.

00:41:15.440 You know, it's like.

00:41:16.800 Yes.

00:41:17.120 we gotta, you know, so, so much of that control is really rooted in, I think, getting to know

00:41:24.340 ourselves more, right? And understand our own unique psychology of ownership, what motivates

00:41:31.260 us to buy certain things and to have certain things. What are things that we're more prone

00:41:36.360 to have an emotional attachment to? You know, all of these things play a role and a habit

00:41:43.260 in our consumption patterns, because consumption is not just what we buy. It's also what we accept

00:41:49.920 and allow into our lives. How does race and class figure into not only the psychology of ownership,

00:41:58.840 but into an understanding of, you know, our own personal journeys to filling our homes with only

00:42:06.520 what we need and what we use in a present day? Yeah, you know, what's so interesting is I think

00:42:11.520 it's less about race. And it is more about like class, generational habits, right? Like those

00:42:20.460 things seem to weigh heavier, just in terms of the conversations that I've had with hundreds of

00:42:26.480 folks now, right? You know, it's really about a lot of our, I would say, even like cultural

00:42:34.040 standards, right? Or generationally what you witnessed, right? So for example, one of the

00:42:40.940 things that I talk about in the book is extending grace to our parents. Many of us have parents

00:42:45.760 who are extreme savers or extreme spenders, right? And part of that comes from the fact

00:42:53.380 that many of them were born after the Great Depression. All of the stories that they heard,

00:43:00.320 what they, you know, remember their families going through, were they a family that lost

00:43:05.220 everything and their parents said, you know what, we're never saving again. We're going to live for

00:43:11.900 the moment. Or were their parents saying, we're going to save everything because we don't know

00:43:17.880 when something like this is going to happen again. So much of who we are is rooted in our childhood,

00:43:24.720 right? And that is why race is less of a factor, unless you want to talk about some of the cultural

00:43:30.760 sort of things. And it's really more, what were our family dynamics? Did we grow up with scarcity

00:43:37.720 or abundance? Yeah. What were we told or not told about spending, right? Like even those

00:43:44.380 conversations that you overheard as a child, you know, where it's like, it's payday and I work

00:43:52.620 hard. I'm going to get whatever I want, right? Like those sorts of things sort of imprint

00:43:58.880 themselves on us. And then we end up either marrying that behavior as an adult. Some folks,

00:44:05.340 you know, depending on how harmful it might have felt or uncomfortable it might have felt,

00:44:10.580 they go to the extreme end on the spectrum or opposite direction. And that's why it's just so

00:44:16.180 important to know ourselves, right? Also, another consideration that I like to talk to folks about

00:44:25.280 is thinking of where you are in your familial standing, right?

00:44:31.120 So a lot of first-gen, you can be first-gen anything, right?

00:44:36.160 Like it does not even have to be first-gen college grad.

00:44:38.440 You can be the first person in your family to own a house.

00:44:42.360 You can be the first person in your family to earn six figures.

00:44:46.280 There's this weighted responsibility that comes with some of those things

00:44:51.240 that crosses across all, you know, races, nationalities, ethnicities, right? It's just

00:44:57.820 like this overwhelming sense of responsibility to look a certain way, to act a certain way,

00:45:04.420 to own or acquire certain things, even if it's not what you really want,

00:45:10.080 because that is what is expected or that is what is, you know, sort of seen that someone in your

00:45:17.780 position should have. Those things, I think that is what is at the root cause of so much of our

00:45:25.980 discomfort when it comes to clutter and having things. We know it's too much. Yeah. You know?

00:45:31.820 Yeah. We know it's too much. That's why step one for me, it's acknowledgement. Just go ahead and

00:45:35.960 acknowledge you have too much. Yeah. And then like, you got to forgive yourself. Step two is

00:45:41.580 forgiveness for a reason. You know what I mean? We only know what we know. And then it's like this

00:45:48.780 awareness or awakening that happens when we start to dig a little deeper into our psychology of

00:45:55.840 ownership and why we have so much more than we need. Do we get to some of these answers? And

00:46:00.540 they usually point to our childhood and suddenly want to place blame, right? So I'm always like,

00:46:07.760 Not only do you have to forgive yourself, you kind of have to forgive anyone who you

00:46:12.440 feel may have been responsible, you know, for some of your habits and behaviors, knowingly

00:46:19.160 or unknowingly, you still need to forgive them.

00:46:21.600 And then you can start letting go.

00:46:25.360 Then go get the trash bags.

00:46:28.580 I'm even thinking about like, my mom would occasionally pick us up from school.

00:46:33.540 She'd call it like a mental health day and we'd go to TJ Maxx and Marshalls or whatever.

00:46:37.760 And even equating like leisure time and like treat time

00:46:42.340 with what is essentially just aimless consumerism.

00:46:47.120 But yeah, like that's just like one tiny example

00:46:50.620 of how so many of us have so many things

00:46:53.960 locked within our subconscious,

00:46:55.700 you know, wrapped up in all of this.

00:46:57.260 It's crazy.

00:46:58.200 I mean, I didn't even realize it until I, you know,

00:47:00.660 started like really digging in

00:47:03.020 and trying to perfect my own practice.

00:47:05.640 And I remember saying like,

00:47:07.280 gosh, I came across so many things with like sales tags or those little red stickers on them.

00:47:13.060 Yeah. Usually there would be like multiple red stickers, you know, and I was like, oh,

00:47:17.340 I love scoring a deal. Yeah. Right. And then I'm like, I have not worn. I mean, my closet was

00:47:23.040 full. One of my closets, one of my many closets. When I first started, it was full of all these

00:47:29.860 things that just had red stickers on them. And I realized, oh, I'm in love with the thrill of the

00:47:35.660 not necessarily the prize. Then I'm like, going a little deeper. Why is this my sort of mode

00:47:44.080 to find joy, right? Like, I'm going to go find a bargain. And I remember going to the mall

00:47:53.500 with my mother as a child. And I think when we do these sort of inner work on ourselves to sort

00:48:01.640 figure out our unique psychology, psychologies of ownership. I think it's so important to also

00:48:07.940 look at the situation through our childlike eyes. That's why I said like what you may have seen,

00:48:12.820 what you may have heard, right? Because what you interpreted as a child may have been completely

00:48:19.600 different than what was going on, right? So for example, we lived in South Florida, you know,

00:48:25.580 We grew up, I'm pretty sure we were considered poverty stricken.

00:48:31.460 I didn't know because my mother, you know, made life so joyous and full.

00:48:35.700 But, you know, looking back, I'm like, oh, we were poor.

00:48:38.460 But what she would do on the weekends is we would go to the mall and we would walk around and, you know, she would buy ice cream, you know, ice cream cones, you know.

00:48:51.900 Yep.

00:48:52.180 And I would always get mint chocolate chips.

00:48:54.340 She would get rum raisins.

00:48:55.580 And, you know, occasionally she would buy herself a lipstick.

00:48:59.240 We would always look at the sales racks, you know, that kind of thing.

00:49:02.400 Yeah.

00:49:02.820 In my childlike mind, we were shopping every weekend at the mall.

00:49:09.520 When we went to the mall, we were spending imaginary money that in my mind, like when I look back on it, I'm like, of course we were just in the mall because AC was free.

00:49:20.920 Right.

00:49:21.620 In South Florida.

00:49:22.320 You know what I mean?

00:49:23.080 It's a place where I can walk around.

00:49:24.760 you see your friends, you know, maybe you'll find a little something. But my mother is one of the

00:49:30.200 most mindful consumers that I have ever known. And again, was born, you know, after the Great

00:49:37.020 Depression, but was young enough to remember the stories of what happened. And you know, yeah,

00:49:43.160 so she is also one of the most extreme, like, I don't want to say hoarder, because she's not a 1.00

00:49:52.320 Yeah. But she is not letting something go that can still be used. Right. Right. And so, you know, putting the totality of all those circumstances together, I realized, oh, in my childlike mind, I associated shopping with being with my mom and the good feelings that we had and the fun time that we had.

00:50:16.540 And even realizing that, you know, even as an adult, when I would go to the mall and go shopping, I would love to end the day with an ice cream cone.

00:50:25.860 And so looking back on that and saying like, okay, what was really happening?

00:50:30.000 What was really happening is she found a wonderful way for us to enjoy our Saturdays not sweltering in the Florida heat, you know?

00:50:39.760 And so I just think it's so important, you know, to sort of do that drill down and do

00:50:45.460 that inner work and think through the root causes of some of our consumption habits and

00:50:51.620 behaviors, because then once we know them, we can recognize them, right?

00:50:56.140 So I'm always going to be enticed by a sale.

00:51:01.100 It's always going to be exciting to me, right?

00:51:04.580 And so I'm not going to the semi-annual sale that happens every month.

00:51:09.760 I'm not going to the sales rack and touching everything, right?

00:51:12.760 Like big part of, you know, why we acquire some of the things that we do is touch, right?

00:51:19.200 This is why we are like, oh, test drive it.

00:51:21.880 Try it on, right?

00:51:23.140 Like, I learned so much about the psychology of ownership researching for this book.

00:51:29.420 I found so much information through marketing and advertising, understanding how they tap

00:51:37.640 into consumer psychology of ownership.

00:51:41.080 It is the most powerful, like, even now,

00:51:44.260 like I've done it, you know what I mean?

00:51:45.800 And I wrote the book about it and the whole night

00:51:47.700 and I'm still just like, wow,

00:51:49.580 this is fascinating and amazing.

00:51:52.780 Okay, so I'm really glad you brought that up

00:51:55.180 because I am super fascinated with the ads

00:51:59.080 and the marketing campaigns

00:52:00.200 that specifically target mothers

00:52:02.100 and specifically offer mothers reprieve,

00:52:07.640 a sense of calm, a sense of clarity, simplicity.

00:52:11.300 So like there's this one Instagram ad that came up recently. 0.91

00:52:14.380 It was a woman wearing like a two-piece set that like kind of looked,

00:52:19.420 it sort of looked like pajamas, sort of looked like loungewear, whatever. 0.95

00:52:22.740 And her tagline was designing this set that can go from pajamas to,

00:52:29.560 you know, the boardroom was the best thing I've ever done for myself as a mother of five.

00:52:34.900 and like as a consumer I'm like oh I want to do something for myself as a mother but like spending

00:52:43.400 $250 on these fancy pajama clothes like that's not ultimately changing my experience of mothering

00:52:50.180 and caregiving that's not that's the promise right like that's what I talk about when I was

00:52:56.320 talking about earlier this promise of right so this idea that I too will look just as fabulous

00:53:03.200 yeah rolling out of bed in these pajamas going to the boardroom with my five there is not an

00:53:10.320 outfit alive that can help right right if there were we would all have them right but again i

00:53:18.240 mean i think this idea of understanding like i can't be tricked anymore right i'm using bunny

00:53:26.540 ear quotes i can't be tricked anymore by these things because i know my unique psychology of 0.53

00:53:33.020 ownership like you can look at that ad and you can say what an unfair promise to these mamas 0.96

00:53:40.540 you know what I mean like my god they really think they're gonna look like that when they roll out 0.99

00:53:46.300 do you know how wrinkled those pajamas you're not gonna be able to go to the boardroom it's just not

00:53:50.460 possible you know what I mean and like well even if they did look like that that is not making your

00:53:55.200 experience of mothering any different you know no you're just gonna look nice and feel frazzled

00:54:01.460 Yeah, right. You know, and so I think like being able to pause, that's a big part of it, right? Instead of just clicking on that and being like, oh my God, these pajamas look amazing. This is, oh, this is what I've been waiting for, right? Pausing and saying, do I really need this pajama outfit set, right? How is this pajama outfit set really going to serve me? Where am I going to wear it? What am I going to do with it? You know what I mean?

00:54:29.500 like by the time you run down all those questions, you've usually lost interest, right? Another sort

00:54:35.620 of thing that I encourage folks to do is, you know, not have your credit card information saved.

00:54:44.180 The number of times, because it's just another, again, we just need these pause points.

00:54:49.640 The number of times I have not purchased something simply because I had to go get up and get my

00:54:55.880 credit card. Countless. Countless. So sobering. Because even once you know your psychology of

00:55:04.540 ownership, you're still going to be tempted. That's when I'm always going to be tempted by

00:55:08.500 a sale. Right. I had to come up with little mantras for myself. And I would I'll say things

00:55:13.980 like, Christine, it's not a deal if you don't need it. You know, so good. And then immediately

00:55:19.540 I'm like, you don't need it. Yeah, you don't need it. Right. Or I'll find myself going to get

00:55:25.020 And I'll say, Christine, what is the why behind the buy?

00:55:28.260 Why are you buying this?

00:55:29.460 Right.

00:55:29.620 Right.

00:55:29.960 Like, because usually it's tied to some emotional, you know, spending or something.

00:55:35.280 Right.

00:55:35.560 And so, you know, there are all these little pause points and mantras and things that we

00:55:40.020 can do for ourselves to help us become more mindful consumers.

00:55:44.760 And I think remembering, too, especially as mothers, that we are mirroring for our children.

00:55:51.380 I think we tend to think that, oh, my child is this is going to be so hard for them.

00:55:57.440 It's really not like my child and was able to embrace minimalism far quicker than I was.

00:56:03.760 Right. I mean, because they, too, feel the overwhelm.

00:56:07.180 Yeah. Right. Like it's also a lot for them when we're like, clean your room.

00:56:12.020 I mean, they don't have the language yet, but I'm sure they're thinking that you keep bringing stuff in here.

00:56:16.700 How am I supposed to keep it clean?

00:56:18.540 Totally. I mean, yeah.

00:56:19.940 I tell parents a lot to give their child a donation bag and tell them, because it's all

00:56:27.920 in the approach, just tell them like, hey, you know what?

00:56:30.880 Gosh, you have so much stuff.

00:56:32.480 You have so much stuff in your room.

00:56:34.380 You can't even keep your room clean.

00:56:36.760 I don't even blame you for not having a clean room.

00:56:39.560 You know what might be helpful?

00:56:41.680 You're so lucky.

00:56:43.100 You're so blessed.

00:56:44.120 I bet there are so many kids right here in our community that would love to have some

00:56:49.400 of these things. There are kids in our community that don't have a single toy or don't have a

00:56:54.620 single book. Can you go through your room and put some things in this bag that you'd like to give

00:57:01.240 them and close that door? And I guarantee you within an hour, probably less than that,

00:57:08.380 they'll be asking for another bag. And it's so hard for parents to sort of accept that, right?

00:57:15.860 it was hard for me the first time I did that with my daughter. I should also say like everything

00:57:21.100 that I'm recommending are things that I've like done. So it's not, it's like tried and true to

00:57:25.820 work. Right. And I remember I did that with her and my mistake was looking in that bag.

00:57:30.460 Oh no. My goodness. I, you know, all of a sudden it wasn't her stuff. It was our stuff. I was like,

00:57:36.480 but we love this Harry Potter sweatshirt. But this, this, this, come on Nala, you're getting 0.85

00:57:44.020 right? But they don't have the same emotional attachments to some of these things that we

00:57:52.040 think they have, that we're projecting on them to have, right? So much of that was me giving her

00:57:58.420 everything that I couldn't have in childhood, right? You can have all the dolls. You're gonna

00:58:04.480 have all the books. You ask for anything, I'm gonna get it. You're right. And it's just like,

00:58:09.660 why I think it was her ninth birthday party was when I was really starting to sort of

00:58:17.400 tap into we need to have less because her birthday party was coming up yep I couldn't think of a

00:58:24.680 there wasn't a single thing that child needed right there wasn't a single thing that she could

00:58:30.380 tell me that she wanted for her birthday and I remember just like just I'm like what can I do

00:58:37.380 What can I do?

00:58:38.760 And I was like, you know what?

00:58:40.000 We're going to have a carnival in the backyard.

00:58:43.040 And all of her friends, who also don't need anything,

00:58:46.040 so not doing all these party favors and things.

00:58:48.280 Right.

00:58:48.380 Everyone, the entry to the carnival is a canned good.

00:58:53.860 One canned good.

00:58:55.500 And we're going to donate the canned goods, right?

00:58:59.800 Yeah.

00:59:00.840 So sent out the invitation.

00:59:02.540 and a night before two nights before the party my phone starts going off okay and I'm getting

00:59:13.420 all these messages and the parents are like oh my gosh our kid is raiding the pantry like

00:59:20.500 what is happening like I thought they were just supposed to bring a canned good and I'm like it

00:59:25.340 is it's just one canned good and right you know but Nala told her friends that they were going to

00:59:29.660 be donating to the food pantry and like I mean we had shopping carts full of food and I you know I

00:59:42.580 had her go with me to our local food pantry it's the Bowie Interfaith food pantry and like I just

00:59:52.060 had to step aside a little bit. I just cried, you know? I mean, the parking lot was full of,

00:59:59.740 you know, luxury vehicles and there were, you know, and it's just like at any moment,

01:00:04.960 I think we forget we can find ourselves on that other side. And this idea that, man, like this

01:00:12.480 food is actually, it's going to help some other family. And the kids had a blast. They signed a

01:00:20.500 hard for the food pantry, thanking them for the work they were doing in the community.

01:00:24.840 And they had the best time at that carnival. And to this day, she said that's her favorite

01:00:31.220 birthday party. She doesn't even remember some of the other birthday parties where I spent

01:00:34.380 thousands of dollars. That was her favorite birthday party. And so I think it's important

01:00:39.520 for parents to remember that our kids don't have the same level of emotional attachments to things

01:00:47.780 that we think they do, a lot of times it is us projecting our own childhood insecurities,

01:00:56.720 wants, unfulfilled needs onto our children because we feel like they are never going to have to go

01:01:03.500 through what I went through. Right. Oh, gosh, I love that story so much. I have one more question.

01:01:11.160 So we're asking everybody, because, you know, the podcast is so much about detaching from

01:01:16.880 ideals of perfection, unattainable ideals of perfection. And so I wondered if you have

01:01:23.280 a situation, a past experience, or something you're still working on where you're still

01:01:28.840 sort of struggling to detach from reaching some sort of impossible perfection.

01:01:35.680 Yeah, I've kind of let that go. That's awesome. I have. I let it go because it's impossible,

01:01:42.960 right? I mean, I think, you know, going through this process, that's what it taught me.

01:01:46.880 I remember apartment therapy was like the first big, you know, sort of name to reach out for me

01:01:53.420 to do an interview. And they were like, oh, we love to feature your home, but take your time

01:01:59.280 whenever you're ready. And I was like, oh, no, this is as minimal as this is going to get. I'm

01:02:04.680 ready. Yeah. You know, and like looking back on those photos five years later, and I'm just like,

01:02:09.940 my God, I still had so much stuff. Right. Like, but in my mind, because I know I remembered what

01:02:17.020 I had, like for me to whittle down four closets and dressers and all these things into one closet,

01:02:23.380 no dresser, you know, I'm like, Oh, I have arrived. I have done it, you know, and it just

01:02:28.400 wasn't the case. And I think, you know, this idea, one of the things that I leave folks with at the

01:02:34.380 end of the book is to sort of let go of this idea of perfectionism, to let go of this idea,

01:02:41.880 even that if you embark on this journey to minimalism or living with less, that there is

01:02:46.920 some destination, some prize at the end, because there isn't. And the language that I use around

01:02:53.280 that is, I am not grown. I am growing. I'm not a grown woman. I'm a growing woman. And may I

01:03:01.240 always be growing, it goes back to that evolution, you know, like, maybe just always be constantly

01:03:07.440 growing and evolving. And with that, it just sort of sheds this, you know, unrealistic idea of

01:03:14.940 anything being perfect, or, you know, attainable, like the mark is always moving as it should be.

01:03:23.360 Yeah, you know, so I hope that answers that question.

01:03:25.540 Yeah. And I feel like you're just like blowing my mind in terms of perfect is the antithesis of aliveness in a way.

01:03:35.400 Yeah. It's just not like it's just not possible.

01:03:40.860 And all we do is stress ourselves out.

01:03:44.460 Yeah. You know what I mean?

01:03:45.620 Like it's a conversation I have with young mothers all the time.

01:03:50.500 Like there are so many things that I would have done differently and not been so rigid.

01:03:54.920 about like they just don't matter right like I'm just thinking of a time when I was like

01:04:03.820 wrestling literally wrestling with my toddler because she didn't want to change out of her

01:04:08.740 pajamas right and go to daycare right yeah and I finally like wrangle her out and like it was just

01:04:16.520 this oh I was so exhausted it was just this whole thing and I get at a daycare and I'm like oh I'm

01:04:22.520 so sorry we're late. She just wanted to wear pajamas and blah, blah, blah. And her teacher

01:04:27.260 was like, oh, why didn't you just let her wear pajamas? And I was like, because this is how it

01:04:32.260 starts. This is how she won't listen to me. And she's just looking at me like, not really, but

01:04:38.260 okay. You know, like, and so, yeah, just like little things like that, that we just, you know,

01:04:45.620 The control, the perfectionism, this idea of somehow achieving this promise that is really, you know, it's just a social construct, really.

01:04:57.240 It's just another social construct, I think, especially for mothers.

01:05:00.880 You know what I mean?

01:05:01.540 It's like there is no perfect mother. 0.91

01:05:04.420 100%.

01:05:05.020 It's just not possible.

01:05:07.600 Thank you so much, Christine.

01:05:09.020 This was a delight.

01:05:10.740 Can you tell us where to find you online and what you're working on now?

01:05:15.620 that people can sort of look forward to?

01:05:18.040 Sure, you can find me online,

01:05:20.260 mostly on Instagram at IamChristineKlatt is my handle.

01:05:25.420 You can find me on the internet, christineklatt.com.

01:05:29.220 And I am working on a new kid series

01:05:32.980 called Frankie and Friends.

01:05:35.660 And Frankie is this cute little reporter 0.97

01:05:37.740 who reports on news in her neighborhood. 1.00

01:05:41.340 She like wants to be a journalist like her mama.

01:05:43.560 And it's really just this opportunity to talk to children about the importance of journalism and media and, you know, asking an open ended question versus asking a closed ended question, you know, what's a beat, you know, like it's a lot of fun.

01:06:00.180 And so, you know, she reports on kids news, big and small.

01:06:04.500 So she reports on everything from, you know, having a loose tooth to is the washer or the

01:06:10.460 dryer eating the socks.

01:06:11.840 She reports on a big protest, you know.

01:06:14.720 And so, yeah, it's nice to sort of have all of those like sort of intersections of things

01:06:20.180 that mean the most to me with my writing, teaching, learning, you know, encouraging

01:06:26.100 these courageous conversations to be able to pour that into this new series. So really excited about

01:06:32.840 that. Yay. I can't wait. Thank you so much, Christine.

01:06:39.200 So what do you have for your perfect for us this week, Virginia?

01:06:43.440 Okay, so I want to talk about this gallery while I'm making in my bedroom because I'm so excited

01:06:48.060 about it. I was kind of hoping you would. Yeah. Sarah was getting texts the other week where I

01:06:53.380 was like doing a video tour of the room being like this is going here and this is going anywhere

01:06:56.700 very fun then I thought I bought nightstands and then didn't buy nightstands it's a whole thing

01:07:01.000 so the room is a work in progress my bedroom has just like a giant it's had empty white walls for

01:07:07.160 years which is what it was never really got around to thinking which I think happens a lot like

01:07:12.640 you work on the rest of your house and your bedroom is just like whatever yeah hot mess

01:07:16.680 or just like empty but I've been really leaning into it was very much like a white box of a room

01:07:23.540 yeah and our bedding was originally like gray and very neutral and so I've bought like this

01:07:29.380 beautiful it is linen but I'm not gonna line dry it periwinkle duvet cover and like bright color

01:07:35.860 throw pillows and now I'm working on this gallery wall that's gonna be like lots of very like bright

01:07:40.240 colorful art okay and I do feel like I'm breaking kind of a lot of design rules like I feel like

01:07:45.460 you're supposed to make your bedroom like very serene, simple. And I don't know, that's just

01:07:51.700 like not where I am right now. I want a lot of color and joy. So I can put some links to a couple

01:07:58.000 of Etsy prints I found that were really inexpensive. It's like lots of like flowers,

01:08:03.160 like bright colored flowers. So those are going up. I'm also printing. Framebridge is so helpful

01:08:08.560 for this. That's where I'm getting a lot of this done. So I'm just ordered a bunch of like photos

01:08:12.840 of me and the girls some of their baby pictures that the six and ten I'm finally getting around

01:08:18.180 yeah yeah yeah yeah and then some more recent stuff and I also put up some pictures of my

01:08:24.280 garden because I was like what brings me the most joy it's my garden and now we're in the

01:08:29.020 dead of winter and a winter garden is beautiful but like I want to see my flowers so I'm putting

01:08:35.380 up some flower pictures and I'm very excited I mean obviously it's great to be thoughtful about

01:08:40.920 are purchasing and all of the things we talked about. But if you are feeling like a lack in your

01:08:46.120 life, maybe it is a need for color. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. What about you, Sarah? Okay. Mine is

01:08:52.200 a pillow. I think, I mean, we've discussed, I know off air that I'm a very high maintenance sleeper.

01:08:57.820 I mean, I'm high maintenance in many, many aspects. I'm a very high maintenance sleeper.

01:09:04.440 Like ever since I got pregnant, well, and had the first kid, I'm like the lightest sleeper in the

01:09:09.620 world. It's absolute hell. So like, Brett makes the slightest noise. I'm like whacking him. It's

01:09:16.780 bad. So I have earplugs. I have white noise machines. The room needs to be like polar ice

01:09:23.560 cap temperatures. And I need like 8 million blankets. Yeah. Yeah. But the pillow is by far

01:09:29.820 the most important piece. So much so that I always, always, always, always, no matter where

01:09:36.180 i'm going always bring it with me like wow like even on an airplane situation oh i mean a hundred

01:09:42.740 percent not to like have on the airplane to now you're gonna figure out a way to pack it even if

01:09:47.440 it requires checking a bag 100 like i'll bring like one outfit if i can bring my pillow it's

01:09:54.000 absolutely it's not even like negotiable like i don't go to like five-star resorts but if i were

01:09:59.300 to i would still bring my pillow you would be like i don't trust their pillows correct i'm gonna need

01:10:03.840 my own yes okay and so what is so amazing about it it's the basic purple pillow purple is the brand

01:10:10.060 and it's like latex and it's almost like no honeycomb cereal do you remember honey it's like

01:10:16.920 that it's not like it feels bumpy when you're like using it but it's this delicious like springy

01:10:25.800 yet solid, yet supportive give that is truly, truly delicious. And like, you know how most

01:10:34.800 pillows get like the lumps and uneven distribution of whatever? This does not. And you can tightly

01:10:42.520 kind of wedge it into a suitcase. Whatever it is, it's really working. And I've had it for several

01:10:48.040 years. It's pricey. But again, you're sleeping on this thing every freaking night. And sleep is

01:10:52.380 important. I wonder if it would help my neck stuff. Oh, I'm sure it would. It's currently

01:10:58.420 $159, which yes, very expensive for a pillow. But think of how many hours you're spending with this

01:11:04.420 thing. Also, you're a minimalist. You're only buying one pillow in your whole life, Sarah.

01:11:09.160 Exactly. So this is fine. It's the last pillow you'll ever need. It's the last pillow you'll

01:11:12.900 ever buy. You're going to die on this pillow. Yes. So this is your deathbed pillow. It's the

01:11:18.520 purple harmony pillow for all your deathbed needs? I mean, you're like half selling me on it. I'm

01:11:24.400 already like only half. I mean, only because I feel like I just spent a lot of money on art

01:11:29.860 for my gallery wall. Otherwise it'd be all the way there. I'm like, do I also need to replace

01:11:34.820 the pillows? Okay. My important question is how firm is it? Because we did spend some money on

01:11:40.900 some, I can't remember what brand they were, some pillows that had a lot of claims attached to them.

01:11:46.280 and when they arrived they were so like there's no give whatsoever oh no no no this has like

01:11:53.540 really delicious springy is the word I keep like nice like it's not like a bed of moss but like

01:12:00.300 you know when you think of moss you think of like a nice give yep yep that is what I think of when

01:12:05.680 I think of this pillow okay yeah that sounds really delicious yeah these ones you could adjust

01:12:10.660 how stiff they were how firm they were by taking out some of the stuffing oh but then I was like

01:12:15.700 what do I do with this bag of extra pillow stuff?

01:12:19.140 That sounds kind of like a lot of work.

01:12:22.140 Use it to bury my American Girl dolls, I guess.

01:12:27.240 Or at least they could have a pillow in their tomb. 0.88

01:12:30.880 Garbage bag in the basement.

01:12:34.140 It's fine.

01:12:34.780 This conversation never happened.

01:12:38.240 All right.

01:12:39.000 Thank you so much for listening to Cult of Perfect.

01:12:41.240 To make sure you never miss an episode,

01:12:42.920 subscribe for free in your podcast player.

01:12:44.720 And please leave us a rating or review.

01:12:46.780 Those will really help folks find the show.

01:12:48.940 You can get more of my work at sarahpeterson.substack.com

01:12:52.600 or follow me on Instagram at sloizepeterson.

01:12:56.680 And all things burnt toast are at virginiasoulsmith.substack.com

01:13:01.020 or follow me on Instagram at v underscore soulsmith.

01:13:04.840 The Cult of Perfect podcast is produced and hosted by us.

01:13:08.360 Our transcripts are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay,

01:13:10.980 who runs at Cell Trade Plus,

01:13:12.360 an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus-size clothing.

01:13:16.080 The Cult of Perfect logo is by Danilo, and Tommy Herron is our audio engineer.

01:13:20.780 Thanks for listening.

01:13:42.360 good mom. I'm a good mom. That's all we got for today. Happy Sunday. You deserve nice things.

01:13:55.220 You do. And I hope you all read this morning's substack where we were giving away a bunch of

01:13:59.280 books. On Sundays, I'm like Oprah, essentially. You get a book. You get a book. You get a podcast.

01:14:04.640 You get a podcast. It's all on the newsletter, over the influence. Again, you get it free

01:14:09.400 when you pre-order the Sicilian Inheritance.

01:14:12.400 Now go have a good Sunday.

01:14:14.240 Ignore your kids for a little bit.

01:14:15.680 Love you all. Bye.

01:14:39.400 Thank you.

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - January 21, 2024

Sunday Nice Things： The Cult of Perfect

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