00:04:04.040And we also probably share a similar fixation, which is the conservative influencer universe.
00:04:11.300And I am very, very, I have been obsessed with Instagram for a very, very long time.
00:04:16.860It has been my hobby for like a decade plus.
00:04:19.500And I have been watching the conservative influencer universe grow and change and mutate for all of these years. So I love the opportunity to talk about people, talk to people about my special interest ostensibly.
00:04:32.500Well, I'm here to give you that opportunity. I'm just, you know, serving it up on a platter for you. I am. But before we do that, I do want to say, as a former newspaper reporter and reporter for a lot of different places, I think constantly about how people get news and how it's going to completely change every minute in the future.
00:04:55.240And I love what you're doing to make to bring news to people where they are, to bring information to people where they are, which is staring at their phones.
00:05:04.720Yeah. You know, and I started my career as a journalist. I went to journalism school. I worked at a newspaper, the Anniston Star and in Anniston, Alabama.
00:05:13.700And, you know, even back then, I was having a lot of conversations. This was in 1894. And I was having lots of conversation about the future of news.
00:05:23.760And the future of news is disaggregated.
00:05:25.980People want to get news from someone they trust, and they want to get it in a way that
00:05:52.440But it's certainly possible. And social media is the greatest information distributor that we've ever had. Right. Like it's phenomenally powerful. And what we've seen so far is like powerful forces that want to use it for evil and that want to use it to make money because capitalism be capitalism ising.
00:06:12.240Capitalism will always be capitalism-ing.
00:06:30.800I'd be sad if you didn't, to be honest.
00:06:32.720I think that my Instagram audience may not know that real Emily has the mouth of a sailor.
00:06:39.720um oh my gosh that reminds me of the time that i was like hanging out in hair and makeup with1.00
00:06:45.380katie korak she was in the hair and makeup chair next to me and she cursed like a fucking sailor0.54
00:06:50.080i have heard that wow i'm like i love you katie korak this made me love you more thank you thank0.80
00:06:54.900you for this um i'm a fan and uh and i don't remember what i was saying because i got distracted
00:06:59.760with swear words um well that your audience doesn't know you curse like a sailor but yes
00:07:05.740the train has left the station. Right. And also, I think that we need to be and you do such a great
00:07:11.580job of this with with your side piece of talking about the conservative Instagrammers. We need to
00:07:18.660be cultural critics of what is happening on social media, too. We have to call out power and we have
00:07:23.760to call out influence in a way that I think largely gets ignored by mainstream, both media and
00:07:29.420academia. Yeah. And I think one of the ways I approach and, you know, my Instagram is my hobby,
00:07:35.140Right. Like this is something I do because it brings me joy. And I assume all of my followers are really fucking smart. And I assume that they are essentially my bestie and we are having a conversation. And sometimes when I see a lot of the work that's anti misinformation, it's like scolding. It's like you're so stupid. How did you not know this was real? It's like, shut up. Stop being such a jerk. Stop being a jerk. Totally.
00:08:01.260You know, I want to have a conversation with my audience, but like what I see happening and have a conversation about like what is the big picture behind all this?
00:08:11.280And because I have access to all of this political information and because I have essentially 20 years of doing this work, I've sort of seen it.
00:08:19.000Because at the end of the day, it's just the same thing over and over and over and over again.
00:08:25.180And so I try to just have that conversation with my audience.
00:08:28.460And I think part of this is also being willing to actually listen to what these people are saying, which sometimes we are not willing to do, CIE 2016 election.
00:08:41.040But, you know, I think that there is it is really, really important to point and name exactly what the right is doing, especially online and where they are trying to take us, which is a very bad place.
00:08:57.040So let's start with that. Talk to me a little bit about what you see of where the right is taking us online.
00:09:04.340And I'll start this with the caveat that, like, the right is a big thing. It's obviously not a single thing. There's different people on the right who are, you know, big are Republicans, hold different perspectives. And the question, you know, when I talk about Republicans, what I'm talking about is Republican leadership and what I see as the controlling faction of the party and the controlling faction of the ideological movement. Right. Which at the moment is MAGA. It's Donald Trump. And it's all of his acolytes.
00:09:31.100And what I see happening is that MAGA is but a step towards Christian nationalism, that the eventual goal is Christian nationalism. And I don't really say that to be hyperbolic. It's legitimately what I see happening.
00:09:47.060And part of this has been because I'm in sort of not the true depths of like truly I am not on like truth social or anything like that. I'm just on Instagram and sometimes Twitter and threads. But what I see them talking about amongst themselves.
00:10:01.620And it is this vision of an America in which men are men, women are women. True men hold complete and utter authority over their domains, which means the president's an authoritarian, right? And they use violence to maintain that authoritarianism. And women are women. And that means women don't have access to any reproductive choices.
00:10:22.840There is none of the protections for people of color, you know, women, anything in the workplace, right?1.00
00:10:29.540Like all of those things are pushed to the wayside and may return to their idealized version of history once the Constitution was written in which the men in power have complete absolute power.0.99
00:10:43.080Yep. Yep. That is that's exactly the same thing I'm seeing.0.54
00:10:46.140Yeah. And, you know, and I think that, right, what we see, we see this information is not merely just from tweets from D.C. Drano. Right. Like this is we see this as part of their legal strategy that they've been working on for 50 years.
00:11:00.080Right. Like we see this in who is becoming powerful in the Republican Party, who is ascending. Right. Like Speaker Johnson is not he's not no one. Right. Like the guy is Speaker of the House. They chose him. And we know what his history is. We know what his political perspective is. We know who his allies are who helped him get there.
00:11:18.200Like there's different. We see what they're doing with their media empire and their disaggregated media empires. Right. Like we see what they're doing with churches. Turning Point USA has an entire faith based component of their programming that is growing bigger and bigger every day.
00:11:35.400And frankly, like. The degree to which faith based organizations and specifically Christian evangelical organizations who have a very particular interpretation of what biblical conservatism is, you know, we see what that what they're trying to achieve.
00:11:50.180And we're taking it's all these pieces of information that we are putting together in addition to the actual laws that they are trying to get passed in states across this country.
00:12:00.120It's a dangerous place to have an electorate that doesn't know that, mostly because I think that our news media has become so fragmented. And that's why I think that the things you're doing are so important. Again, reaching people where they're at. So once again, thank you. Thank you for your service.
00:12:19.580thank you thank you for seeing it yes i see you i do thank you um i want to talk a little bit about
00:12:25.900the influences from influencers from and especially female influencers every time you post about
00:12:34.540trad wives or some of these more far-right uh evangelical christian influencers my entire
00:12:43.200audience sends me you're you're real every single time every so you then you were really in my phone
00:12:48.980You were just up in my grill in my phone.
00:13:33.660So, yeah, you know, so my point of saying that is to say like I am being targeted by the same algorithm that a lot of my followers and your followers are being targeted by.
00:13:45.140and i am feel like it has created the same emotional resonance in me that i'm hearing
00:13:50.400from so many people and i think this is largely because what the right does so well is develop
00:13:55.820talking points and ideologies that respond to vibes right and the vibes right now are like
00:14:01.900i i cannot deal with this life that i have been assigned there is too much going on too much
00:14:08.680cacophony i feel like this can't be how we should be living which is 100 true like we are not
00:14:14.140intended to have this much information being thrown at us and have like living be this much
00:14:19.080of a struggle um and you know the economic stratification in this country is all-time high
00:14:23.980etc etc wages um it is a hard fucking life and they're like hey we have a solution for you and0.74
00:14:30.560let me just tell you it'll solve all your problems and it's you just like move to a homestead and0.97
00:14:35.220you give like your life over to this man and he will make excellent decisions because men are
00:14:39.740renowned for making excellent decisions. And, you know, you'll just bake sourdough and take care of
00:14:45.960your beautiful children who will never have any health problems, even though you don't provide
00:14:49.060them any health care. And you'll live this wonderful life. Or vaccinate them. Right. And no masks,
00:14:56.280right? Like in all this. And that is sort of the content that I started receiving. And I had been
00:15:03.880following a lot of right-wing conservative homestead homeschool influencers for a while
00:15:10.880and the difference that I saw was those people were always fringe and they had fringe audiences
00:15:16.160and they have moved to mainstream and what I saw is a lot of those people when you really
00:15:22.860follow down the pipeline they have some connection to either a religious cause or a Republican cause
00:15:30.220that has helped move them along towards the way and helped proffer, you know, promote that,
00:15:35.240whether that's because they get advertising revenue from specific companies that I know
00:15:39.220are right wing companies, because that's something we've seen really, really big on the right is
00:15:42.940that they've created their own, you know, shopping infrastructure. They're creating their own
00:15:48.020Amazon. They have their own diaper brand. They have all of this stuff their own. And then those
00:15:51.260people also, those companies pay Republican influence, conservative influencers, proud
00:15:56.560wife influencers to post content, right? Like they've created their own ecosystem to get more
00:16:01.640content out there. And this, in my mind, what I quickly connected it to was the legal and
00:16:09.020political strategy that we've seen from the right and what they want to see happen with women. And
00:16:14.020that is they want to see women not have access to the rights and resources that make it possible
00:16:22.400to be a woman living in the 20 what are we in the 21st century now um 21st um you know and
00:16:29.620and i don't think the goal of this is to get all women to agree that this is the way it's to just
00:16:37.320get enough women enough women to vote via the terrible primary process we have in this country
00:16:44.580via the terrible electoral college we have in this country right to get enough women to support1.00
00:16:49.300politicians who will then bring about this change in our country. And I think that's a distinction0.99
00:16:53.760that's sometimes hard to make. Like, I'm not arguing that they're trying to get everyone to
00:16:57.600do it. They're just trying to get the point of the spear to do it, to believe that this is like
00:17:00.900a good path and to be, you know, if you fundamentally believe all birth control is a toxic poison that
00:17:07.040wants to destroy your body, you're like, fine, fine. You do you. I don't care. Your body, your
00:17:14.200choice, man. Right. But, you know, they are they're setting the stage for a group of people
00:17:19.380to fundamentally support this the ideology behind Christian nationalism.
00:17:26.900Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that that is what a lot of people don't see. See beautiful
00:17:32.320pictures you see or, you know, I mean, I wouldn't even say they're beautiful. I have a hard time
00:17:36.680saying that. But, you know, what we've been told to perceive as beautiful, you see these pictures
00:17:41.560and these images of motherhood that is not as messy as what real motherhood is.
00:17:46.740And it's attractive in the same way that a magazine is nice to thumb through on an airplane
00:18:00.440I mean, look, this is like the same way that they don't want abortion to be legal.
00:18:04.920And you're going to go to a crisis pregnancy center and they're going to tell you all the
00:18:08.040horrible things that are going to happen if you get an abortion.
00:18:10.400But then they're not going to do anything than provide you like one set of diapers. Right. The movement as a whole. And that's not everybody. That's not every church in the country. But as a whole, the movement is essentially saying like, we're not here to help you in the long run. We're just here to have you make the decision we want you to make. And that's the same as motherhood. Right. Like they just want you to choose motherhood.0.92
00:18:31.260They don't really care what happens along the way. Like they don't care if you have access to WIC to be able to feed your baby. They don't care if you have access to, you know, child care, affordable child care. Well, you're not working, so you don't need child care, I guess. But, you know, they don't care if you have access to parks and recreation in your community, because at the end of the day, you should be going to church. You shouldn't be going to a public park.
00:18:55.420All of these things, right, that we as communities need.
00:19:22.820What the right has done is for the past decade, invest in social media and it's disaggregated. It's not like it's not a single organization. Turning Point has really excelled at it, but it's not only them. There's lots and lots of groups that are doing this and they have invested in creating a lot of noise.
00:19:41.460We are going to take a quick break here. And when we get back, we're going to talk about all that noise.
00:26:41.400I mean, you know, again, this is part of my the train has left the station ideology.
00:26:44.860There has been this incredibly incredible dismissiveness of social media as this like
00:26:50.140vacuous place where people only have ridiculous discussions about shoes, which is a whole
00:26:55.540other conversation that you've had on this platform about how, you know, they're the
00:26:59.860inherent misogyny that colors people's views of Instagram and the people who post on it.
00:27:05.400But, you know, that is where people are going to see other people talk about issues that matter to them.
00:27:13.500Right. Whether it's Instagram or TikTok or whatever platform that they use.
00:27:17.440But the idea that like it's it's not important continues to baffle me.
00:27:22.660And what is this? What is a public square?
00:27:25.420It is a place where a bunch of people go and you listen to have to other people having conversations.
00:27:30.020There's narrative setting. It's where you determine the values of your community.
00:27:33.700it's where you help determine where your community is headed. And it's through having
00:27:37.760constant and iterative conversations. And that's what we do on the internet. And of course, there's
00:27:43.940factors that make it difficult, right? Like there's algorithms that make people louder than
00:27:50.560they should be. It's not as if in the like olden times, there weren't certain actors who got a lot
00:27:57.400more speaking time than others like we have a significant history of white men being totally
00:28:04.160in charge of public squares right like it's yes yes it's it's not as if that sort of perversion0.77
00:28:10.540of the public square is anything new in the history of this country and so yes it is there
00:28:16.900but there's also this incredible opportunity and I think Instagram in particular is one of the best
00:28:20.600places to have these public square conversations because you are allowed you are able to cultivate
00:28:24.700a specific community in a way that you aren't able to do on other platforms.
00:28:30.900In political science and politics stuff, there is this really big focus on relational organizing,
00:28:35.940the idea that like getting a cold call from a stranger isn't going to get you out to vote,
00:28:39.500but getting a call from someone you know is going to get you out to vote.
00:28:43.180And the reality is when you are posting on your Instagram, you're posting on your story
00:28:46.900and your followers are saying that they are getting a call from you, right?
00:28:49.940Like they are getting an outreach from you about what you think that they should do.
00:28:54.060And it's also in a way to have a conversation. And the parasocial relationships, they are very real. And so whether it's someone you actually know or someone who you only have this Internet relationship with, it is incredibly meaningful and powerful. And I think something that we can harness. But it's only it only works if like lots of people who hold reasonable views are talking about them online and using the platform.
00:29:19.580And again, like, it's not perfect. I am shadow banned constantly. Like, are you? I've started I've started to be shadow banned lately. Yeah. And I, you know, and it definitely like, again, I'm I'm in no way, shape or form like a defender of meta. But it is it's it's not as if it's like we're going to stop people from going on.
00:29:41.500Like I'm certainly not going to stop as a consumer. Right. Like and I'm not going to start going to bowling league just no matter how many how much content I get that convinces me my life will be better if I do or it's not bowling league.
00:29:54.140It's like going to a needlepoint night.
00:29:56.000But, you know, I think that it's sort of like it's the current hand we are being dealt.
00:30:02.920And it's not as if, right, like I get DMs every day about people who are like, your post on XYZ thing has caused me to make this change in my life.
00:30:12.560It's not as if you I'm constantly being reinforced with the idea that posting on the Internet about politics does create positive change.
00:30:20.340And it's not like big things most of the time.
00:30:38.000Hi, Emily, I have 200 followers on Instagram and was pretty doubtful that my posts about gun violence and political advocacy were reaching anyone.
00:30:46.000Today at a playdate at the park, a fellow mom asked me about my posts and how she could get involved in advocating to protect our kids.
00:30:53.440Because of you, I was fully confident to have this conversation.
00:30:57.080A few hours later, she texted me about loving your phone calls, not flowers campaign.
00:31:17.100But I don't want to spend time doing that.
00:31:18.520I like spending time doing things I love.
00:31:20.420But, you know, the thing about political action is people really it has been drilled down to these like big issues, right?
00:31:30.480Like it's about like who's going to win the presidential race.
00:31:32.620There's nothing I can do that'll change who's going to win the presidential race.
00:31:35.500But the reality is politics is much, much more than the president.
00:31:39.480It's everyone down to your local city council member, your school board.
00:31:43.180But like we've seen with all of the book banning how critical school boards and library boards are.
00:31:47.800These are political, you know, institutions that largely went completely ignored until a couple of years ago. And to this day, there is still no there's nowhere that exists that has all the library boards like on a list. We don't even know how many library boards there are in this country, which is wild to me.
00:32:06.600But I think that the goal is helping people to figure out a what is politically meaningful to them, right? Like I have my I have my own policy issues that I really care about. But my goal is always to give people the tools to say, like, these are the ones that I really care about. And here's what I can do to act on this in a way that's sustainable for me.
00:32:26.840Like, if you have two jobs and you have to take care of three kids and your mother-in-law, you're not going to be volunteering two days a week on a campaign.0.84
00:32:40.380You might be able to have conversations with people at your job about the issues that you care about and about the importance of voting and maybe give them some resources.
00:32:48.220There's all of these small things that everybody can be doing.
00:32:51.380And at the end of the day, we still have a democracy.
00:32:54.100We should all be doing stuff to make sure that we keep that democracy in 2025.
00:32:59.460But, you know, whilst we still have it, we can all move the country in the direction that we want.0.97
00:33:04.740It's not going to happen immediately, but it happens, you know, in small iterative steps only through people actually doing shit.0.99
00:33:13.920Through people actually doing shit.0.98
00:33:14.900And I have a personal example, too. During our recent mayor's race, I was I was supporting an awesome female candidate, Rebecca Reinhart. I loved her. And I volunteered for the campaign to do door knocking.0.99
00:33:29.400people hate it when you knock on their doors they just i've never felt so just i've never felt so
00:33:38.600bad as when i i get doors slammed in my face of people that i know vote democrat of people that
00:33:43.380i know actually probably would like to support our candidate because it it does feel like an
00:33:47.920interruption of personal space so i stopped doing that and started posting on on my instagram and
00:33:53.960said hey my dms are open i'm here ask me any question you have about rebecca let's chat and
00:34:00.600that was so much more effective than any door knocking that i could have done it really was
00:34:06.960yeah and you know the democratic elite if they exist right like the people who are running
00:34:12.820um you know democratic clubs and institutions whatever they are in cities and in states um
00:34:19.640across this country, they have the way that they have always done things. And the reality is it's
00:34:24.280probably boomers who are the ones who are making these decisions and the people who are in charge0.76
00:34:28.160of the campaign are just doing what everyone has always done. And that doesn't mean we have to do0.56
00:34:32.740shit that way. Right. And we can change. And it is the reality is people want to hear from people0.98
00:34:40.280they have relationships with. They don't want to hear from a stranger, especially in today's
00:34:44.620environment where things are so polarized in this country, it has become increasingly hard to have
00:34:50.700conversations with people whom you do not have any trust with. And so, you know, you probably
00:34:56.940changed a bunch of people's minds. And then if each one of those people changed a couple of
00:35:01.400people's minds, right, like it's this is like classic chain letter theory just applied to
00:35:08.100meaningful civic change. Exactly. Exactly. I have one last question for you. You started this
00:35:16.140as a hobby, but now you have more than 100,000 followers. You're an influencer.
00:35:20.860Do you consider yourself an influencer? Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. And it's a badge I hold
00:35:25.280with pride. And, you know, I think that and again, I love Instagram and I think it's really
00:35:30.420interesting how we've seen people move away from the term influencer to creator. And I think it's
00:35:34.500like steeped in misogyny. But, you know, I definitely consider myself an influencer because
00:35:40.020my goal every day is to influence and persuade people. And I think that there's everyone who has
00:35:46.920this platform is also an influencer in their, you know, of the people that they they who follow
00:35:53.880them, right, like of the people who are in their community. And that's might be online. That might
00:35:57.520be their mother. A lot of women I know have changed their dad's voting patterns because of1.00
00:36:04.260conversations like they have that influence um you know i am very very proud to hold the badge0.99
00:36:10.140of an influencer and i too want a rothy's sponsorship because i love those fucking shoes
00:36:16.180same i would really like rothy's to sponsor this podcast and i would also like def like0.93
00:36:24.020certain brands of period panties to sponsor this podcast i mean they're you know yeah hey you know
00:36:30.680And I think that one of the interesting things that has happened on Instagram, right, is that it has become like everything, right?
00:36:38.240Like it has it has become sort of disaggregated.
00:36:40.640And I remember in like the early days of Instagram where it was just like cool girls and they were telling us what they bought and it was so exciting.
00:36:49.440And then those cool girls needed to get paid.
00:36:51.480And then they started telling us what stuff they liked, i.e. people who paid them to do it.1.00
00:36:58.700But I think that there's still lots of people like you can find people constantly focus on those influencers. Right. Like people with four million followers. But or one million, whatever. But there's also lots of people like me on the Internet who have like 100 to 200,000 followers. Right. Like are continually posting about actual things that they actually like and sharing their actual views. And there's people with more followers who are still doing that.
00:37:24.140So I think that, you know, we the conversations about influencers have largely moved towards only focusing on sort of like the worst offenders.
00:37:33.760But there are lots and lots of people doing really, really interesting things.
00:37:37.380Lots of women of color who are speaking out about really, really important issues.
00:37:41.960And we have the opportunity to listen to them through this incredible platform in a way that like I sitting in my house alone working day in, day out would never have had the opportunity to hear from these people.
00:37:51.820And I get to while continuing to sit in my house.
00:37:59.380And also not just while sitting in my house, but while being way more present for three kids under the age of seven.
00:38:08.440And I've been breeding for three years and have still had this opportunity through podcasts, through social media to have a platform that I would not have otherwise and still get to see my kids.
00:38:20.720Let's connect it back to the beginning, which is, you know, what's incredibly important for people who want to have a dictatorial control over the political process in this country so that they can pollute rivers and pay less taxes is the people who would not vote for them to be disenfranchised.
00:38:37.420And one of the key aspects of getting disenfranchised is having less access to information, right? Like the Republicans, like the Koch brothers would love nothing more than for women to not have access to political information that could radicalize them, to become politically active Democrats.
00:38:53.300And I saw Charlie Kirk post. Charlie Kirk is a big Republican conservative MAGA influencer. He was the founder of Turning Point USA. And I saw him post something recently where he was like, we're going to outbreed them. We're all going to have tons and tons of kids. We're going to be like the Mormons. And how are they ever going to have any more Democrats if they aren't breeding like us?
00:39:18.560And I was like, where do you think that all Democrats come from?0.75
00:39:22.700Like, do you think Democrats only come from Democrats?
00:39:25.380But the thing is, it's not only about them breeding.
00:39:27.800It's about them then limiting those kids access to information, right?
00:39:31.820Making sure that they only go to schools where they're only presented the information.
00:39:35.240And this is where we get into the book bans.
00:39:37.240We get into the killing of public education in this country.
00:39:40.640We get into their campaign against colleges because, of course, colleges and learning
00:39:45.040things creates Democrats and all of this stuff.
00:39:48.260So I think that one of the things that social media offers is the opportunity to get information out there to help raise consciousnesses in a way that is limitless.
00:40:00.780And for busy moms who are busy raising children, which is a full-time fucking job, and then they probably still have to have a full-time job because it's hard to afford to live in this country right now, it's a way to make it really easy for them to get information in a way that's not overly taxing and can fit into their life.
00:40:18.260i i can't put it any better that's that is perfect that is a perfect description
00:40:25.000and we can we can end on that will you tell everyone where to find you in their phone
00:40:31.340please follow me on instagram at emily in your phone and i also have a sub stack which every
00:40:35.520single day i promise that i will restart and re-engage because i have lots and lots of things
00:40:39.900that i think of that i want to tell everyone every single day but the question is can i find the time
00:40:44.060to do it right i mean i i actually i do love substack and i love we i have a substack called
00:40:50.440over the influence and it's been awesome and i will tell you i write most of them on my phone
00:40:56.920while in transit or in the bathroom or like after my kids are when my kids are going to sleep and
00:41:04.500they make me lay on the couch for 10 minutes and uh that is that is how i am finding the time to
00:41:09.060write them yours should be joe from the toilet joe from the toilet joe you know what that would0.98
00:41:13.680go fucking viral. I already see the cover photo. You know what? Here's the thing on the internet.0.96
00:41:20.180There is no bad way, right? There is no bad way. No bad way. Will that sell books? Fine. I'll do it.
00:41:29.320That's all we've got for today. Thank you for being here. Thank you. If you're not already
00:41:34.360following Emily, please follow Emily. Please have her be in your phone too, because you need her.
00:41:39.700you need her she's going to make you so much smarter and so much better informed
00:41:43.720thank me later thank me later and remember you can always thank me by pre-ordering the sicilian
00:41:51.200inheritance you can see how i slid that in there just slid it in not so casually
00:41:58.140as always pre-order the book and you get a lifetime subscription to our sub stack
00:42:04.440over the influence. And if you love this show, leave it a review, because the trolls have,
00:42:10.420and the trolls don't like me. They don't. Share it with a friend, and now please go have a great
00:42:15.560day, because you deserve it. You deserve all the good things. Later, gators.