00:00:00.000Hey, everybody. Joe here. You are listening to Under the Influence. And today, we are
00:00:08.280truly going back to our roots. Yeah, we're going deep. We're going deep into Mormon mom
00:00:15.340talk. Now, I know this has been a long time coming. I know that I should have been binging
00:00:20.300this show on day one. But I was busy. Life gets in the way. And I finally did it on my
00:00:27.300birthday, I finally started watching The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. For those of you who
00:00:34.140haven't heard about it, it is a reality show on Hulu that follows eight TikTok influencers in
00:00:40.660Utah who are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It follows their
00:00:45.660rise to fame on MomTalk over the past few years, including the time they made headlines for the
00:00:50.820soft swinging spouse swap scandal, which rocked the internet. Now we are going to be talking a
00:00:57.460lot, a lot, a lot, a lot about this show. My first reaction, it is freaking bananas. This is one of
00:01:05.940the most dramatic reality television shows that I've ever watched. And I've watched them all,
00:01:11.380my friends. I have covered them all. But the first thing I want to talk about today is how
00:01:15.880there is a deeper level to all of this. Trust me, just bear with me, bear with me beneath the Botox
00:01:21.180and the boobs and the Lululemon. There are some things for us to think about, okay? One of them
00:01:26.400is that these women are bucking against the patriarchy in very, very interesting ways. These0.99
00:01:31.880women have power, and they've gotten power through social media. Altogether, they have millions of1.00
00:01:36.760followers and a massive amount of brand power. I actually think that this show and the women1.00
00:01:42.060bucking the patriarchy in it could actually have some kind of impact in the Mormon church.
00:01:47.820I do. I do. This whole thing is an anthropological study. It is. I know. Is it okay to say that?0.67
00:01:56.280Today, my guest is the wonderful Jess Gross from the New York Times. She wrote a truly
00:02:02.040excellent column for the Times about whether or not this show could actually change a patriarchal
00:02:07.920religion. And Jess, like me, loves watching trash. Big fan of the trash. Also loves talking0.99
00:02:13.740about gender, motherhood, and religion. So like all the things, man, we are going to get into
00:02:17.680all the things today. Stay with us. I have a lot of feelings. I feel, I feel dirty. I also,
00:02:33.400I also feel empowered. I don't know how to feel. I want all I want your first gut reactions about
00:02:40.800this show. I mean, my first gut reaction is I cannot believe they put the words soaking in
00:02:46.960the title cards. Like, I think most people just don't even know what that means. But for the
00:02:52.440unenlightened listeners, I did not know what soaking was. So if someone could could enlighten
00:02:58.580me i'd like it to be you okay so um you know mormons are not allowed to have sex before marriage
00:03:05.440right but there are totally unapproved carve-outs like you're still really not supposed to do any0.99
00:03:12.320of this but somehow and i don't know where this came from um if you just put your penis in someone0.98
00:03:21.720but don't move it that's what soaking is and apparently that does not qualify as sex but it0.99
00:03:28.920absolutely does like i don't think the mormon church is like well that's fine i think that's
00:03:33.140just some like young adult people who are like oh this is a carve out the way uh and doesn't count
00:03:39.020as premarital sex where it's yep i'm pretty sure it counts um like yeah i'm pretty sure it counts
00:03:44.180i'm pretty sure that's before the show even started and i was like oh my god i cannot believe
00:03:48.880they put that in the drink so i would say my first gut reaction is um just a really high
00:03:58.360amount of drama and for a reality show i am a garbage monster i watched a ton of reality
00:04:03.600that's why i love you one of the many reasons so you know as a as a veteran of housewives and
00:04:08.960vanderpump like i think they came in hot and i think it's because their tiktoks had sort of
00:04:13.700served as the first season and i that's what the guys from watch what crappens were saying and i
00:04:19.720totally i i don't i want to cite them for that insight um but it that is how it felt right
00:04:25.040because they were already like the drama was in progress the drama was in progress i mean look we
00:04:32.260a lot if you've been following these kinds of things as we do a lot of us knew about the mormon
00:04:38.780mom talk swinging scandal we knew about taylor's arrest but i mean this was a high level of drama
00:04:48.340as you said for any reality show i mean in one show in one show and i'm not doing spoilers i'm
00:04:54.520not going to say who did what but like in one show we have an unwanted pregnancy a possible
00:04:59.880miscarriage a husband who is addicted to porn and also probably emotionally cheating on tinder
00:05:07.440we have an arrest we have like it's just it's so i mean this it felt like an entire season of drama
00:05:17.020packed into the first episode um yeah and it was you know that got us right in media's race
00:05:23.660we were in the middle of the drama it was already happening and i wrote a column about the show
00:05:29.800Because I do think it has a deeper cultural resonance underneath all of that drama, which is young women are moving away from organized religion writ large at faster rates than everybody else.
00:05:44.880And part of the reason that's happening is because in a lot of conservative religions, women are second class citizens.
00:05:52.980They are not allowed to have leadership positions.
00:05:55.140They are told from the time that they're young children that they're the highest goal is to be wives and mothers working outside the home is still controversial for some folks.
00:06:05.880And so I think watching these women grapple with those pressures while also still wanting to be modern, independent women.
00:06:14.640And I do think that social media enabled them to see the world outside what one of the wives calls their glass box in the first episode.0.61
00:06:27.420And they wouldn't they wouldn't be on the show.0.98
00:06:29.940They wouldn't be breadwinners for their families.
00:06:33.420And they talk about how that that is causing tension in their marriages because that's not what Mormon good Mormon wives are supposed to do.0.98
00:06:40.480And so I do think that there is sort of a, you know, underneath the garbage glass. Right. Yes. Like I think that they are grappling with something that a lot of people are grappling with.0.98
00:06:52.760And a lot of people that I've interviewed are grappling with because I also, you know, as I although I write about, you know, gender and family a lot, I also write about religion a lot.
00:07:01.100And I've talked to women who a lot of women who were raised in extremely conservative families and they, as they came of age, moved away from their religion, not because they didn't see anything good in their religion.
00:07:16.960And they saw a lot of good. But a lot of times they saw how their mother, their own mothers were treated and they couldn't tolerate it once they, you know, once they were older, often they went to college and they weren't going to, you know, liberal colleges.
00:07:31.960They were often going to Christian colleges. Almost all of them I've spoken to actually went to Christian colleges. So it was just actually being outside of their home that they were raised in and meeting more people and seeing the world and being exposed to travel that made them see this is really unfair to family members that I adore.
00:07:53.340And I think that's really important because I think a lot of people who push back against people questioning religion try to make it out to be, oh, it's just, you know, anti-religious outside forces that are changing these women's minds.
00:08:44.280We write about reality TV and also, you know, deep discussions of religion.
00:08:48.320And I, too, have interviewed so many women who've escaped from conservative, patriarchal religions who tell me the exact same things that we're hearing in this first episode.
00:09:00.760And, you know, when we say conservative religions, too, let's not pretend that the majority of religions in the world have not been patriarchal and have not repressed women for the majority of human history, too.
00:09:14.840I mean, this is just, you know, we're finally seeing women getting a chance to rebel against this because they're getting power and they're getting platforms.
00:09:24.580And in this case, that power and that platform came from social media.0.99
00:09:29.180And it's not just a platform. It's also a connection to the outside world. And I think when you're in a closed community, it is hard to see that there are other options and it is can come at a great cost.
00:09:44.060leave it you know pushing back against the values of your community you can be ostracized you can
00:09:49.560harm family relationships it's really hard and i think it's you know you need to applaud the
00:09:55.400bravery of people who are willing to say you know this isn't for me anymore and they miss a lot of
00:10:01.920what they were raised with like i think part of what happens sometimes is is people become just
00:10:08.320aggressively anti-religion. And I'm really trying to be curious and open-minded. And I think when
00:10:14.480you listen to people who have moved away from the religion they were raised, there's so much pain
00:10:19.340there because, you know, they love the community aspects that they were raised with. They loved a
00:10:24.200lot of the values they were raised with. They just don't love women being second-class citizens and1.00
00:10:30.020they don't love, you know, often anti LGBTQ rhetoric, you know, laws, whatever. I mean,
00:10:37.760that's another sort of aspect that a lot of people have told me was a huge factor in them moving
00:10:44.340away from organized religion was the idea that, you know, if they you know, obviously,
00:10:49.580if they were in the LGBTQ community themselves, that was a deal breaker. But often people were
00:10:54.640not in the community themselves. They just couldn't stomach watching people that they loved
00:11:01.460be treated as less than or innately sinful or bad or wrong or going to hell. And yeah,
00:11:09.960it's tough to argue with that, right? It is tough to argue with that. A hundred percent. A hundred
00:11:15.540percent. All right. I want us to take a really quick break here. And when we get back, I want
00:11:20.200to talk about the other facet of this that I think is a little bit, you know, deeper than all of the
00:11:26.640boobs and the Botox and the labiaplasty, which is the money. Yes. Okay, we are back. And look,
00:11:42.640I just, I knew that I was going to agree with everything that you said. I loved, I loved your
00:11:48.380peace. And, you know, we don't have to have a love fest. You know how much I adore you.
00:11:55.200But I like it just it's resonating so hard because I do think that beneath all of the
00:12:02.880scandal, beneath all of the gloss and drama, there is a lot that we should be taking away
00:12:08.760from this. And one of the things that I think is interesting is that if this were about
00:12:14.220a group of men rebelling against their religion. This would be likely considered a very poignant
00:12:21.540documentary. But it's about women. And so we see the fluff before we see the substance. And the1.00
00:12:27.880fluff is out there. I mean, it is just front and center. But there is a lot of substance. And in
00:12:33.340addition to, you know, what I think we can take away about religion and about taking on the1.00
00:12:39.600patriarchy there's a lot to be said about women making freaking money because these women are0.54
00:12:45.680making bank here and it is so threatening to the men in their lives i mean you really see such a
00:12:53.820divide and i think what is really interesting is that a lot of these women are on their second
00:12:58.300husbands because they married so young i mean one of the moms on the show um got married at 16
00:13:34.880And I think, you know, they all still consider themselves Mormon.
00:13:38.600They all still call themselves Mormon.
00:13:40.020But it just was really interesting to me that, you know, a bunch of these women who were, you know, for people who haven't seen the show, there is a divide that the show makes between quote unquote saints and sinners.0.74
00:13:54.740And one of the saints is a woman named Jen Affleck.
00:13:59.760And she her husband is the second cousin of Ben Affleck.
00:14:02.880Yes. So that's very that's very important. That's very important. And her relationship with her husband, at least as depicted on the show, you don't know what goes on people's private lives, but as depicted on the show is upsetting. He is very controlling of her. He is really dismissive of her work. He is, you know, verbally abusive to her. I would I would describe his behavior on the show towards her.
00:14:28.400Yes, 100 percent. Yeah. And meanwhile, you know, he's he's attacking her morals while he is gambling like he's literally gambling, which I'm pretty sure is not, you know, seen as a really great activity in his church.
00:14:43.220um so they're the other women really kind of try to intervene with her and especially the women who
00:14:51.380are on their second marriages are saying i know divorce seems really terrible and that the church
00:14:57.940frowns on it but it is not the end of the world we have been through it we are on the other side
00:15:02.180you do not have to live like this and i just thought that that was really brilliant and that
00:15:07.240scene was really honestly hard to watch because, you know, she's making Jen is making so many
00:15:14.100excuses for her husband that it just, you know, at least again, you know, I know reality TV isn't
00:15:21.120real. Who knows what really happened? Like caveat, caveat, whatever. But at least from what we saw,
00:15:26.980I just thought that her husband is so threatened by her being the breadwinner that he loses his
00:15:35.280mind. And it's disturbing to watch and upsetting. It's disturbing and upsetting to watch. It
00:15:39.820absolutely is. And, you know, this is also not just happening in the Mormon church, in the mom
00:15:46.640talk community. I think that there is, you know, a bigger takeaway here. I was talking about this
00:15:51.840with some girlfriends the other day. The majority of my female friends are the breadwinners in0.99
00:15:57.580their family. They just are right now. It is something we are seeing more and more of. We're0.96
00:16:04.300all having conversations about it we're all having conversations with our husbands about it
00:16:08.100it is uncharted territory and i think that this this is much more universal than just in in this
00:16:15.080community it really is yeah i was literally just reading yesterday about how you know more women
00:16:20.220are graduating from college than men that has been a trend over the past 10 or 15 years and so
00:16:24.980they are on track to you know potentially out earn their spouses though you know uh there's a huge
00:16:31.160drop when people have kids. That's really one of the biggest drivers of the gender pay gap at this0.98
00:16:35.580point. But we don't need to get into all of that. But, you know, this is here to stay. And I think0.99
00:16:42.200one of the takeaways from the story I read was women have just been more flexible.1.00
00:16:49.260They see the economy is changing and so they get the training they need. And I think
00:16:54.140the male ego is a hell of a drug, unfortunately. And I think, you know, not to be like,
00:17:01.160what about the men? But I do think, you know, I'm not raising sons, but if I was raising sons,
00:17:06.120I would want to inculcate them with the idea that like your job is not who you are.
00:17:12.180Making the most money is not the most important thing, because I think a lot of the problem is
00:17:15.920that men are given these gender roles of I have to be the provider. And if I'm not, then I'm a
00:17:21.640failure. And so I do, you know, it's a cliche that the, you know, patriarchal values hurt everybody.
00:17:27.380But I do, you know, not to condone or excuse Zach's behavior to Jen, it's unconscionable, it's terrible, but they are getting a set of messages that does not serve them and is not making them flexible for the reality of life as it is.
00:17:43.620And so, yes, yes, absolutely. And I'm also not going to be a what about the men person. Right. But I am raising a boy child. OK. And I think about this every single day. I think about how to raise him with the values because I'm raising girls to be like, you can be anything. You can be a boss like you are brave and strong and powerful and you will rule the world.
00:18:06.160And I'm like, well, I want to give my boy encouraging messages as well. And then I also want to be like, you can be a caregiver. Your job is to be kind. You need to take care of others. And that's one of the most important things. Empathy. Men have been done a disservice. They have been done dirty.
00:18:29.180There's also a lot else going on in that situation. But like culture does need to change. And I think it is fascinating to watch these women on the screen because I haven't seen a lot of depictions of on the screen of women as breadwinners on the screen grappling with this in real time and seeing the men struggle with it.
00:18:50.740Um, and also just getting to hear about, you know, influencers making the money because we also, we live in this world where we see, see a bunch of trad wives.
00:19:00.480Uh, the crazy thing is I literally just finished my trashy, trashy trad wife murder mystery.0.68