00:04:27.760I'm touched out. That's what I am. How did that come to you?
00:04:33.660Oh, good question. How did it come to me? And I'm so excited to be here too. I love
00:04:38.280everything that you do. I think that the title came, it was slow going. When I started the book,
00:04:48.320it was like, I wanted to write a book about motherhood, whatever that meant. And as I got
00:04:55.160deeper into it, I realized that it was really a book about how motherhood had affected my body.
00:05:02.080But then, you know, I noticed this term touched out like circulating online. And as I write in
00:05:07.120the book, like at first I felt a lot of recognition in that. Cause I, I did feel that I was like,
00:05:12.100you know, working in an in-home daycare and I had, you know, my kids hanging on me,
00:05:16.700but it also felt like there was a lot going on in that little phrase that was not really being
00:05:24.000explored. So, you know, I think the book is trying to unpack sort of what is underneath,
00:05:32.280you know, cause when we say we're touched out, even like, you know, burnout, right. It's the
00:05:35.800sort of like catch all term, right. We're at capacity. We don't have anything left.
00:05:41.740You know, let me have a break. Let me have a break. I just want a break. Yeah, exactly.
00:05:46.260But I was curious, like, okay, so what is it that we need a break from, you know, because often it
00:05:51.740does feel especially when you have little little kids that you need a break maybe from your kids
00:05:57.620right but I think you know obviously as I write in the book that it's a lot more complicated than
00:06:03.780that and so that's what I am trying to dig into in the book yeah and you do it so so well I mean
00:06:11.860and you you did end up you know using so much of your personal experience in it what was it like
00:06:20.660to write something that was so intensely personal? That's a good question. You know, I mean, I think
00:06:26.980now that I, the book has been out for a while, and I'm sort of like in a different place as a
00:06:32.160parent. When I was writing it, I was finishing it during the pandemic. And I just felt like this
00:06:39.300intense sense of urgency to make sense of my experiences. And, um, you know, I, my first book
00:06:51.740was a memoir with like a little indie press. So, you know, I've always written sort of personally
00:06:56.440to kind of figure out the world. Like I needed, I needed that. And I don't think I would have made
00:07:01.480sense of my experience of early motherhood if I couldn't do that. But yeah, I think the writing
00:07:10.840process because of what was happening around me in the world, especially toward the end of the book
00:07:15.820was just super intense. Like it wasn't always, it wasn't always great. It was, it really felt
00:07:21.740like I was sort of exercising, not, not exercising, like working out, but exorcising.
00:07:27.600or sizing yes exactly all of these sort of like demons of my girlhood and and starting to name
00:07:35.860like okay here's why I'm having these sort of physical visceral reactions
00:07:41.160and I think it allowed me to like let go of of quite a bit um well yeah that's one of the things
00:07:51.640I want to dig into a little bit. Before you became a parent, what did you assume it would
00:07:57.560be like? Such a good question. I mean, how much time do we have? All day, you know, all day until
00:08:04.960people start asking me to feed them. Right? Yeah. I mean, you know, in all seriousness, I think that,
00:08:11.960you know, as I write a little bit in the book, like I thought that becoming a parent would sort
00:08:16.420of take away some of my like independence and freedom, but in these very, you know,
00:08:22.840sort of like manageable ways, like maybe I wouldn't be able to go on vacation as much,
00:08:27.740you know, um, like having a dog, right. Or I couldn't stay up late or, you know, I'd have to
00:08:34.220like budget my money better. Um, which is strange because I had spent years like studying, you know,
00:08:42.440so-called women's work. And I knew sort of the history of how that labor was erased and devalued,
00:08:48.980but I didn't really get it until I was in it. Um, and I mean, I think, I think I didn't understand
00:08:59.160really how physical motherhood would be, which is also strange because I was a nanny before I had
00:09:04.180kids. Right. Right. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. But it's different. It's different. It is different,
00:09:08.580But, you know, like I would end those days as an Annie, like so sweaty and like covered in food and shit, you know, like just changing diapers and foods like flying everywhere.0.89
00:09:19.520But I think I thought I could do it differently.0.97
00:09:22.500You know, I thought I could do it better or more feminist somehow.0.98
00:09:50.880So what are the things, that's what you assumed.
00:09:53.640And I think that so much of our anxiety and tension and stress and everything that is
00:10:00.100is very difficult about parenting does come from this expectation gap of going into it um so you0.99
00:10:07.620that's what you assumed and then what kicked you in the fucking face yeah I mean I think that that0.98
00:10:13.660physicality of motherhood I think the loneliness the alienation that I felt um you know I was like0.99
00:10:21.580an academic you know when I became a mom and I think I wanted I wanted a break from that
00:10:27.320sort of hustly, competitive, very masculine culture. But I just felt totally alienated
00:10:35.140from who I was before and very much kind of like slotted into this experience of like a stock
00:10:45.060image of like what a mother should be. So the physicality of it, but also like just the lack
00:10:53.020of control that I then felt over my life in terms of like what I could do for work and how I could
00:10:58.500pay for childcare. And, you know, was it worth going to work if then I had to spend all this
00:11:04.200money on childcare and I wasn't actually bringing any money home and all the guilt, you know, so
00:11:08.580all the things kicked me in the face. All of the things. All of the things. Yep. Yep.
00:11:14.900Yeah. I mean, it is, I think it is shocking that it is all of the things that kick you
00:11:20.180in the face. It is not any one thing. It is so many things that I remember when I went to the
00:11:28.120doctor and they do what I, their, you know, postpartum depression checkup, which I just0.96
00:11:34.220think is kind of bullshit because it's not nearly enough. And what they do is not nearly enough. And0.97
00:11:38.600their checklist is strange and almost accusatory too. Uh, because it's like, if you feel these
00:11:44.320things, something's wrong. And I'm like, doesn't everyone feel these things? I don't think it's
00:11:48.900just me i swear to god um but there's no way to say it's everything it's all of the things the
00:11:55.520weight of all of the things is so much it's too much yeah yeah exactly yeah and i think you know
00:12:01.500the other thing about the sort of like postpartum checks is and and something that surprised me was
00:12:06.700how long the the so much feeling lasted you know and then how disorienting that was like
00:12:13.600do i have postpartum depression my child is two you know my child is two yeah yeah is this still
00:12:21.040postpartum what is right right is postpartum exactly well and and you've said before that
00:12:31.500going into this motherhood felt like a script written by men and i think about that a lot um
00:12:39.200One of my favorite examples is when people start asking me about the terrible twos and I'm like,0.95
00:12:44.220oh my God, four is so much fucking worse. Three and four are terrible. I'm convinced that whoever0.95
00:12:49.800coined the phrase terrible two was a man who didn't realize his child was three.0.82
00:12:55.860The three-nager. Yeah. The three-nager. He worked outside of the house and they never came home
00:13:00.240until the kid was like all clean and tucked into bed. And they were like, when's the kid's
00:13:04.660birthday what is it yeah it made no made no sense to me or also the terms morning sickness right oh
00:13:12.340did you only see your wife puke in the morning so you coined morning sickness because it's all
00:13:16.940the time sickness my friend all the time for months yeah for months and months on end and so
00:13:21.740I want to hear a little bit about what what inspired you to say that what kinds of things
00:13:26.240about motherhood felt like a script created by men yeah yeah right well I mean so I think we
00:13:33.320could get very sort of historical about this, like just looking at how the housewife has been
00:13:39.620constructed over time, who constructed that image, who had power over those early images,
00:13:46.660you know, of mothers that we all sort of have internalized. And, you know, how in, you know,
00:13:54.480the transition from feudalism to capitalism, the idea of the woman as a sort of keeper of home,
00:13:59.940who, of course, by the way, was not working and therefore wouldn't be paid, right? And how she
00:14:05.860sort of came to be. And previously, you know, there were more communal ways of living and0.98
00:14:12.340thinking about sort of maintaining, you know, not just common space, but, you know, reproduction,
00:14:20.020right? And the way that reproduction and production, like wage labor was sort of divided there.
00:14:26.980But I think even today, you know, we can like think about how all this online content that we consume, you know, parenting experts and advice, it's not always written by men, you know, but when I say like that this is a script written by men, what I really mean is that like, yes, men hundreds of years ago, right, created this image.
00:14:51.120And today, culturally, that image is still very much with us. And I think that even women internalize it and reproduce it sometimes without even knowing it and are reproducing these kind of images of motherhood and parenthood that privilege men and discipline women into certain ways of being or talking or acting or relating to children or just obsessing about.
00:15:21.120you know, being a good mom. Um, another thing that I think about a lot today is that like the
00:15:28.500way that we parent today, even when it's against the ideal, like the image of the, you know,
00:15:34.660saintly sacrificial mother, it's reactionary. So it's like, we're trying to just do the opposite
00:15:40.060of the nostalgic or sentimental image of the mother. Like, yes, I think about this a lot
00:15:46.100with wine moms with like the wine mom imagery on social media um it's like you either get one or
00:15:53.380the other you have to be the sacrificial martyr or you're a hot mess mom look at me i'm a disaster
00:16:00.640and i say this all the time i'm like i think most of us are just somewhere in the middle right right
00:16:05.800exactly yes yeah i've written a little bit about the the hot mess mom and the wine mom because it
00:16:11.040is that? Exactly. It's this binary, right? It's like good mom, bad mom. And it's very hard to get
00:16:17.500out of that kind of binary thinking, which is also a patriarchal construct. But it's also just
00:16:24.200very hard to think outside of all these parenting scripts that we've inherited and to try to think
00:16:31.640of how could we think about parenthood or womanhood or motherhood or just living with
00:16:39.740children outside of all that yeah it's not an easy task it's not an easy task but we try
00:16:48.720you try you try so well well in the book i try so well on this podcast and yet i feel like we're
00:16:54.560shouting into the wind right right right all right we're gonna take a quick break and when we get
00:17:00.800back, I want to dive into a little bit more about women and mothers and desire.
00:17:19.440And now we're back. And now we're going to talk about one of my favorite topics, which is
00:17:24.580desire and motherhood and why for so long. I think, you know, a lot of people and definitely
00:17:32.880pop culture and media have been very uncomfortable with thinking about mothers as beings with bodies
00:17:40.760who desire things. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I think part of this has to do with0.80
00:17:50.900the the way that we view the role of wife and and mother again those like inherited
00:17:57.520scripts that we are still um trying to unlearn or rethink um you know just sex alone you know
00:18:08.160was once supposed to be only within marriage and only for making babies right it had this
00:18:15.160utilitarian value especially for women who were not supposed to have any sexual pleasure they
00:18:20.840were just supposed to have sex when their husbands wanted to and have the children.
00:18:28.080You know, and even like during the era of the witch trials, like women who were perceived to0.55
00:18:32.540have any sort of deviant sexuality, right? Those were the women that were accused of witchcraft.
00:18:38.500They were having sex with the devil, right? Of course they were. Yes. Yes, absolutely.0.97
00:18:43.220Very busy. So much devil sex. So much devil sex. So much. Oh, wow. I just, you know,1.00
00:18:49.180i'm constantly thinking about fiction and how well fairy sex does on the fiction list0.98
00:18:54.320i'm like wow has anyone actually had sex with the devil yet or should i just make devil sex a thing0.98
00:18:59.620oh my gosh there was that show and now i can't remember the name but oh was it lucifer0.99
00:19:04.780it was um with alexandra daddario and she's having sex with this demon
00:19:11.960uh-huh i will send it to you and we can put it in the show notes yeah totally we need to put it0.98
00:19:17.240in the show because i'm like yes devil sex absolutely and it was like kind of cool and0.99
00:19:22.220empowering for her but also kind of just reproducing that image yeah women having sex with
00:19:27.720exactly exactly well yeah i mean i feel like women have been shamed for and especially mothers
00:19:33.860shamed for having desire right like no like once you become a mother that part of you is supposed
00:19:39.280to be shut down. Yes. And I do think that we're starting, starting to break through that just a
00:19:49.400little bit, but probably not enough. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's like with so many issues
00:19:56.640today, like it feels that we are culturally in this really different place, but also not, you
00:20:02.760know, I mean, it's a very short history that we're talking about, like, you know, it was only like
00:20:08.260with the sexual revolution and the you know invention of the pill that we really started
00:20:13.060to see sex as like this recreational thing that could be about personal enjoyment and fulfillment
00:20:17.860and you know even how that played out for women and the sexual revolution is is really complicated
00:20:23.740and we still culturally like you see this in pop psychology all the time you know talk about women
00:20:29.280who have low libido you know or quote-unquote libido that's sort of an issue with that word
00:20:36.120But, you know, we talk about them in terms of sexual dysfunction, you know, and this, again, is like descended from a long history of seeing women who fell outside the norms of motherhood and marriage as dysfunctional rather than just doing what they wanted to do.
00:20:55.780Just doing what they want to do with their bodies. Just doing doing having bodily autonomy. Right. Having bodily autonomy, which you write so well about in the book in in Touched Out. I had much like you, I had never had such a loss of bodily autonomy as when I had my children.
00:21:16.980I mean, it was just a nonstop circus of my body being forced to do things whenever, whenever I whenever they were needed. Right. Talk to me a little bit about your own experience, because I think we have a lot of new mothers or near or nearly mothers, pregnant women, people who want to one day be mothers.
00:21:41.460And I think it's so important to talk about what that is like to completely have your bodily autonomy taken away from you.
00:21:50.220Yeah, well, I mean, I think it plays out in so many realms in motherhood, you know, from like childbirth to the, you know, cultural pressure to breastfeed.
00:22:00.180um, to, for me, when I became a mom, you know, in like 2015, you know, the mid 2010s
00:22:07.420attachment parenting, you know, is telling you, you've got to like hold your baby and sleep with
00:22:11.760your baby and do all these things. And some of that, you know, I did find really fulfilling.
00:22:16.400Like, I think that, you know, the connection, especially now that I have with my kids is it's,
00:22:22.820you know, it's like luscious. It's great, you know, but when I first became a parent,
00:22:28.760I didn't know really how to say no you know yes same yeah and so like I just I mean again
00:22:36.360there was all this cultural pressure telling me that I shouldn't you know that I that I should
00:22:42.540wear my baby all the time and then you know you do like the Mobi wrap and it's like 45 minutes
00:22:48.160just to put it on and then the baby's like screaming on your chest they hate it they really
00:22:54.180do. I was such a Moby rap failure. Massive failure. It's very hard. I watched so many
00:23:03.500shitty YouTube videos. Totally. And failed. I mean, like the baby almost fell out of that thing0.99
00:23:09.880many, many times because I was a bad Moby rapper. But I was terrified because I read all of these
00:23:16.460things about attachment parenting that said they must be attached to you all of the time. They must
00:23:21.920feel your heartbeat all the time, or they will grow up to be sociopaths. And I was like, I must
00:23:28.400do this. I must do this. And I mean, I do not have baby three attached to me ever at this point. She
00:23:34.980doesn't even go in the ergo, really. I mean, she wants to be down and around ever since she was
00:23:39.940mobile. She's like, I want to be with those other kids. Get away from me. Right. And I think she
00:23:44.180loves me more than the other ones do. I really do. I don't think it had anything to do with how
00:23:49.220much I held her. Right. You're like a rare commodity now. Well, exactly. Exactly. I think
00:23:55.140it's why children are so nice to dads that are never around because they're like, you are special.
00:24:01.220Right. Mom is here all the time. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you know, I like I made
00:24:07.920my husband wear the baby all the time. And, you know, so it's like I tried, but we also still had
00:24:14.800both of us had this idea that we had to be on the baby all the time. And that's, you know,
00:24:21.220the intensive parenting ideas that like, you cannot walk away from your child at any age.
00:24:28.380No, never leave them. Never, ever leave them. And I just feel like over time, you know,
00:24:34.660my relationship with my children, yes, they've gotten older, right, which does make parenting
00:24:39.060easier in some respects. But the more that I sort of let go of that need, it was also kind of a need
00:24:47.420to control your relationship with the child or control the child, right? So that my kids don't
00:24:53.560become sociopaths, right? I think they're good. But the more that I let go of that and I learned
00:25:00.960to say no, you know, and have my own, you know, boundaries and acknowledge my own limitations,
00:25:09.460we just have a better relationship. And I think it models for them, that they too can be humans
00:25:15.460with limitations. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. It models for them that it's okay to say no,
00:25:24.660once in a while that you do not need to cater to everyone else's needs,
00:25:28.660all of the time. And I think that's a good lesson, especially for young women who are taught that
00:25:35.260being helpful is paramount. Right. In life. I really, really do. All right, we're I want to
00:25:44.380switch gears. Once again, we are going to take one more break. And when we get back, I want to
00:25:48.920talk about your latest New York Times piece about sexless marriages.
00:25:58.660okay so because I also have a podcast about marriage called committed so many people sent
00:26:12.680me your latest piece in the New York Times about sexless marriages and can a sexless marriage
00:26:19.720be a quote unquote good marriage and a happy marriage and I will tell you my friend group
00:26:27.060my group text was very very divided on this let's hear it what are they well so you know i am friends
00:26:37.680with a lot of moms who are in the thick of it right i'm in the thick of it i've got a six a four0.98
00:26:42.980and a one and i've written about this and talked about this before i totally like having sex with0.99
00:26:49.040my husband. It's great. When we do it, we don't have that much time to do it. Um, or space. I0.98
00:26:58.140mean, I am not a night sex person. I'm just not. Okay. Because I'm tired. Right. And I'm also,
00:27:04.540I'm a bad faller, a sleeper. So I have to like get in bed and read a little bit. And if I have
00:27:11.180sex, then I'm all excited. I'm not asleep. I don't fall asleep after sex. So I don't,0.87
00:27:15.480we don't do it at night. We are like morning or midday sex people and are definitely not doing it
00:27:21.460that much, but we're super happy. Like, I don't think we've ever been happier. We like each other
00:27:26.320more than we've ever liked each other. And I don't think it has any relation to our sex lives.
00:27:31.460And then I had other friends who were like, no, no, we, if we, if we do not have sex twice a week,
00:27:38.440then we are going to be very disconnected from one another. And, you know, that it was,
00:27:43.600it was a great divide. This was the great divide in my group text this week.
00:27:48.700Yeah. Well, you know, as you know, we never get to choose the headlines. So, and that's-
00:27:54.640Right. So the question, right, of, you know, can a sexless marriage be a happy one? You know,
00:28:00.880I think that the piece itself really does more than answer that question, right, in one definitive
00:28:08.580way, which was not, you know, I didn't want to make a case for marriage. I didn't want to make
00:28:14.460a case against marriage. Um, I didn't want to make a case for sex twice a week or not, you know,
00:28:21.100like ever having sex. What I was really curious about is just, I mean, exactly what you're
00:28:26.700sharing, right? What, what does it look like out there right now? You know, what do women's,
00:28:33.500women especially, but I did speak with many men. What do these heterosexual partnerships look like
00:28:40.200and how are couples talking about sex in their marriage? Because even what you're describing,
00:28:47.100having this really clear knowledge about what you both want and what you both need and when you
00:28:54.100desire and when you don't and how having sex affects you. I heard a lot of that stuff from
00:28:59.620the people that I spoke with. But, you know, these are new conversations. Again, this is like a
00:29:06.220really short history, you know, spousal rape was only criminalized nationwide in the 90s, you know.
00:29:14.080So it's like a new, it's a new frontier to talk about what do you want? What do I want? How do we
00:29:20.640meet in the middle? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I feel like my parents probably never had
00:29:27.700that conversation. They got married in 1979. Right. Yeah. No, I heard that from a lot of
00:29:34.760the women that I spoke with. I mean, I know, you know, in my own family, there's all kinds of
00:29:41.420stories about that in terms of feeling that there is a sexual duty or a sexual obligation0.59
00:29:48.580that especially, you know, the woman has to fulfill. And I was curious, like how much of that
00:29:57.620still exists. And a lot of the people that I spoke to for the piece, you know, did express
00:30:03.680feeling that sense of obligation. And sometimes they would describe feeling like really happy
00:30:08.020with where they were, you know, even if they weren't having sex a lot, but then quickly
00:30:13.000pivot to like, but we really do, you know, need to get back to it. And sometimes that's
00:30:16.980because they miss their partner, you know, and they wanted to reconnect and they wanted
00:30:20.380to be having more sex. They wanted more pleasure in their lives. Sometimes it was because they
00:30:24.840felt guilt, like, there's got to be something wrong here, you know, and it didn't really seem
00:30:29.600reflective of what they needed, like, as individuals, so much as, again, this cultural
00:30:37.020pressure to fulfill this image of what a happy, healthy marriage is supposed to look like.
00:30:44.040Yeah, well, absolutely. I mean, I do think there's an intense cultural pressure of what
00:30:48.560a good marriage looks like of what a happy marriage looks like and you know it is like
00:30:55.240this idea of like sex twice a week was kind of ingrained in me um that like oh like you know this
00:31:02.400is this is how you you connect with your partner and make sure that you're that your partner there's
00:31:08.640also the narrative that to make sure your partner doesn't stray right and which is such an unhealthy
00:31:14.540thing to feed to women like he will leave you if you are not giving him this thing right um twice a
00:31:21.020week um it's like it just it makes sex like a chore instead of a choice right um completely
00:31:27.280but yeah I will say I mean my relationship with sex has obviously changed so much after having
00:31:33.880kids because I am touched out a lot of the time and it's getting better it's getting better and
00:31:40.560better. I mean, before we had the baby, the bonus baby, when B was three and much more
00:31:47.400self-sufficient, my sex drive was definitely increasing again because I did not have someone
00:31:53.980attached to me constantly. But the second that we had that baby and I was breastfeeding and
00:31:59.360carrying her and I just, I was touched out. And I think we do get to a place where we are not
00:32:05.140any longer. But then I also have just different thoughts about how I want my body to be enjoyed.
00:32:16.480And I don't want to not not used, but how I want to use my body. After having kids, I think I think
00:32:22.400I'm much more conscious of having a body in the world after having kids. Yeah, totally. Totally.
00:32:28.060Yeah. And I mean, I think that all the mothers that I spoke to, you know, had, they expressed similar, right? That like, though maybe their awareness of their body or the changing feelings that they had about their body were different and diverse, they all had to kind of renegotiate things and had a new relationship with sex.
00:32:53.880And, you know, for some of them, as I write in the piece, like that had to do with like pain, you know, they had childbirth trauma, you know, and they, you know, they couldn't orgasm the same way. Right. And so they literally, you know, like you're saying, had to sort of figure out how they wanted their body to feel and not be used, but what brought them pleasure. Right.
00:33:17.540Right. And so I think it's important that we just like allow ourselves that space to, you know, maybe you need to take a break and figure out what brings you pleasure on your own without your partner.
00:33:29.560And that's OK, too. Or maybe you don't. Maybe you want to do that with your partner. Right. But asking these questions, you know, in relationships, I think are are important.
00:33:42.320totally important and I don't think that there's enough space to ask those questions or we're not
00:33:47.720told to ask those questions we're told that if we're asking those questions maybe something's
00:33:52.440wrong right instead of thinking oh my gosh as human beings we are supposed to be evolving
00:33:56.940right together and our bodies are changing I mean also as we get get older our sex drives are
00:34:04.440changing. Um, but yeah, we're, I don't think that we are, we are trained at all to question things
00:34:10.900or to have good conversations about them. I mean, until I wrote about my own sex life,
00:34:17.560when I did that cup of Joe piece about liking vanilla sex with my husband, uh, and then trying0.98
00:34:23.120to write sexy sex scenes, spicy sex scenes, uh, in Sicilian inheritance, uh, my friends and I had0.97
00:34:29.900never really talked about our sex lives that much. Like it wasn't a, it wasn't a conversation. It
00:34:34.320was almost taboo in a way because if we say that it's not everything we want it to be is our merit
00:34:40.100is there something wrong with our marriage right exactly yeah yeah I heard a lot of that too I was
00:34:45.380surprised to yeah hear how many people you know don't talk to their friends about their sex lives
00:34:52.800I mean especially the men that I spoke with oh yeah I can't imagine my husband ever talking about
00:34:58.620a sex life with anyone. Right. Ever. Right. And, and so they too, you know, I expected going into
00:35:05.840the piece, um, you know, to find a lot of like impatient men who just wanted to have more sex
00:35:13.360with their wives, but really, you know, I found a lot of men who I really empathized with who were
00:35:18.520also renegotiating masculinity and what they, you know, want from a late, a relationship and what
00:35:25.880they think, you know, a marriage looks like, and who are not talking to their friends about these
00:35:33.120things. And so sometimes are kind of mixed up, but are still, you know, wanting their partner to
00:35:40.300be totally into whatever sex they are having. And that's new, you know, that's like new territory.
00:35:50.500And it's great. It is great. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I think all of these conversations that we're having around motherhood are great, too. I mean, I do I do feel like there is more space than ever, despite the fact that we're being shown more and more social media images than ever of perfect seeming mothers, perfect seeming lives, all of which is bullshit, by the way.
00:36:14.160um but I do think that we're having more and more conversations about what motherhood is like
00:36:19.420and like the reality of what motherhood is like and that can only only be a good thing
00:36:26.520right yeah completely I think so too and I think you know yes maybe young people you know are
00:36:37.440thinking more carefully about whether or not they want to become parents and I think that that's
00:36:43.120a great thing. I think that's a good thing. Not something that we should worry about.
00:36:49.620No, no. I mean, I hate the articles that are so doom and gloom about the birth rate plummeting
00:36:54.360and people not wanting to have kids. And I'm like, oh, what if we were all just more thoughtful
00:36:58.300about whether or not this is something we actually wanted and not something that was prescribed to us
00:37:04.500by society? Like, wouldn't that make, you know, everything better for humanity?
00:37:11.140right right i mean it's the same with like sex and sexuality like what if we all just take a pause
00:37:16.740like take a beat about what we want yep and then we could go from there and then we go go from
00:37:23.360there what if what if what if i love it oh i could talk to you all day but alas i have to feed i have
00:37:31.500to feed children shortly but thankfully thankfully not from my body any longer yeah from my body
00:37:37.380that is finished forever very excited about that but I'll never but I mean just going back to the0.80
00:37:43.040sex thing again I'll like never think about my boobs as sexual things ever again you know it's
00:37:47.900which is very interesting to me I'm sure that some women get over it but like for me like it0.98
00:37:52.120used to be an erogenous zone and now I'm just like those are udders right totally I mean in a lot of0.96
00:37:58.440women that I spoke to like lost feeling in their nipples right so there's there's a total like
00:38:03.580psychological transformation but also like physically it just feels different just feels0.58
00:38:09.060different they're just they're just very utilitarian now is what they are oh will you
00:38:16.300tell everyone where they can find you and all of your things oh yes you can find me not on twitter
00:38:22.680you can find me on instagram sometimes at a m-o-n-t-e-i and most often at my sub stack which
00:38:31.400is Mad Woman. I think it is my name.substack.com. I believe it is. I was just on it. I was just on
00:38:39.720it. But I love the name of it. I love Mad Woman. There is a canyon in Wyoming, close to this ranch
00:38:46.120that I went to called Mad Woman Canyon. And also an accompanying liquor store. So every time that
00:38:53.600I see your sub stack, I think of that wonderful canyon and liquor depot.
00:39:01.400That is all that we have for today, friends. I don't know about you, but I do want to take a
00:39:08.500break. Take me out of the game, coach. Take me out. I am not ready to play anymore. But I do feel,
00:39:16.780I do feel good. I love talking about these things, and I love Amanda. Her book, Touched Out,
00:39:22.440Motherhood, Misogyny, Consent, and Control, is wonderful. It makes a great baby shower gift,
00:39:28.200way better than a onesie. No one needs another onesie, my friends. There are so many onesies
00:39:33.680in this world. We are going to drown in a sea of onesies. Get this book. Also, get adult diapers.
00:39:42.860Baby shower gift. Touched out? A package of adult diapers. It is my best advice. It is my only
00:39:50.420advice right now. Go have a great day. Do something nice for yourself. You deserve it.