Vulgar History - Author Interview： Flora Carr (The Tower)

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast. My name is 0.73

00:00:15.800 Anne Foster and today I'm talking about our latest book club pick. So every now and then,

00:00:23.360 I'm not going to say monthly because it's just when I'm so moved by a book that I know

00:00:28.880 that the Tits Out Brigade is going to love it, that I choose a book to be a Vulgar History Book

00:00:32.980 Club pick. And this was like, I couldn't not choose this. I was so excited when I first heard

00:00:38.500 about this book being announced. When it came out, it just, I had to ask if we could be the

00:00:43.880 book club for this. And obviously, Flora Carr, the author of The Tower, was into this idea.

00:00:49.380 She listens to the podcast. She knows about the Tits Out Brigade. And here we all are.

00:00:53.340 So The Tower by Floricar is a book that is now available or actually, if you're listening to this live or not live, but like the day that it comes out, March 6.

00:01:05.860 So on March 5th, yesterday, this book went for sale in the North America, US and Canada.

00:01:11.680 And then tomorrow, March 7th, it's going to be available for sale in the UK and Commonwealth countries.

00:01:18.560 So basically, if you haven't pre-ordered the book already, just go out this weekend,

00:01:22.840 pick up a copy from your local independent store, or I've got links in the show notes

00:01:27.080 so you can buy a copy online.

00:01:28.820 Go to your library, place your library holds, because you're going to want to read this

00:01:32.660 book.

00:01:33.140 So The Tower is a historical fiction novel by Flora Carr that is all about Mary Queen

00:01:38.240 of Scots at Loch Leven, which, as you'll recall, we did a whole episode about this in the Mary

00:01:43.920 Queen of Scots series.

00:01:45.220 That's where she was taken to the island prison, where the people who were there with her included Mary Seaton from the Four Marys, but also a certain young teenage boy called Young Willie was there.

00:01:57.880 And she did a series of escape attempts that involved like switching clothes with Mary Seaton, sneaking away, trying to be pretending she was a washerwoman, but then like her hands were too clean and then they wouldn't let her escape.

00:02:11.280 eventually she did escape in an ocean's 11 level heist that was so extra and so everything. And we 0.56

00:02:19.820 recapped that. Alison Epstein was with me for that episode. There's a whole thing where it's

00:02:24.140 like, when you see me, you find this earring, that's a signal to do this. Like it's such a

00:02:28.240 great heist in history. I think that happened. The tower is a novel, like it includes the heist

00:02:33.660 escape, but also it was just like, what was it like for Mary Queen of Scots to be trapped in

00:02:38.940 this island prison for 11 months. And this was after she had been defeated by the asshole lords 0.99

00:02:44.920 of Hollywood icon, Jimmy Stewart, because they wanted her to abdicate so that her son could be 0.99

00:02:50.240 the new baby King with Hollywood icon, Jimmy Stewart as the regent. So they sent her to this

00:02:54.960 island prison. She was pregnant at the time, allegedly with twins because the Bothwell scenario

00:03:00.260 had just happened anyway. And then after this, she does escape, not spoiler because you've

00:03:06.960 probably heard that episode. And she went on to challenge the asshole lords and all kinds of stuff 1.00

00:03:12.260 that wound up with her going to England. But this is a part when I did the episode about the Lock 0.96

00:03:16.400 Leaven scenario several months ago when we were doing the Mary Queen of Scots situation. I think

00:03:21.660 I said like this, why is this never a movie? Why is this never a book? Like this narrative is so

00:03:26.440 everything. Like it's a success story for Mary Queen of Scots. And so many of the projects about

00:03:31.220 her are always about her being defeated or her being sad. But this is like a time where she

00:03:36.400 kind of like after the David Rizzio murder, where she just like the plans she comes up with when her

00:03:41.800 back is against the wall are incredible. The Tower. So it's a book that takes place during

00:03:47.180 these 11 months, like it starts. And again, it's a novel. So you can get into more interesting,

00:03:52.060 like imagining what are people thinking? What were they saying? So it starts with her arriving

00:03:56.020 at Loch Leven. And the book just takes place all there, except for kind of flashbacks and memories.

00:04:01.520 and it's such a good book there's also a queer love story in it and it's really mainly about

00:04:08.080 the women it's almost it is it's entirely about the women it's about Mary Queen of Scots the

00:04:12.880 chambermaids who are there with her who are characters in the book Mary Seaton arrives and

00:04:16.940 then kind of the female jailers who she was there with also which were like Hollywood Eck and Jimmy

00:04:22.820 Stewart's mom is one of them anyway it's just it's a story it's such a vulgar history coded book I

00:04:30.460 say in the most complimentary way i tell flora this in the interview you're about to hear like

00:04:35.200 i open the book and it starts with there's a cast of characters explaining who is who and it's just

00:04:39.260 a list of it's like mary queen of scotts mary seaton young willie hollywood icon jimmy stewart

00:04:44.300 i'm just like i had to put the book down because i was so overwhelmed i'm just like these are my

00:04:47.940 guys these are my little guys like lindsey is there i'm just like all the people like ruthven

00:04:52.480 just these names bring back so many memories from that season of the podcast and then i mean she

00:04:58.060 does use their actual name. She doesn't say Hollywood icon, Jimmy Stewart. And then I started

00:05:01.700 reading the book and it's like Mary Queen of Scots being taken to Loch Leven. And I'm just like,

00:05:06.160 oh my God, it's just so exciting to see this amazing real life situation turned into this

00:05:12.120 incredible novel. And I really, when I first read an early copy of it, I was just like,

00:05:17.100 I'm dying to talk about this with everyone. Actually, shout out to a friend of the podcast,

00:05:22.640 friend of mine, Alison Epstein, who was the first person who heard about this book and told me about

00:05:27.040 it and put it on my radar. And ever since she mentioned it, I've been so excited to

00:05:30.880 read it. And now it's finally being published and we're going to spend all months talking

00:05:35.340 about it as a book club. So how the book club is going to work is that you can, I'm going

00:05:41.980 to be posting discussion questions on Instagram where we're at vulgar history pod. So every

00:05:47.400 week I'm going to have a discussion question. Actually, I'll let you know today I'm posting

00:05:51.960 the first one for this week, which is just what are you most excited to read about in

00:05:56.560 this book. So it's a discussion question for people who haven't read the book yet because

00:06:00.040 it was just published. But what are you most excited and why are you excited to read this

00:06:03.940 book will be our first question. And there's also going to be a series of questions also

00:06:07.780 I'm posting for free on the Patreon, like I did last time with our previous book club.

00:06:12.640 So you can join the Patreon for free to comment on those ones as well. So for people who are not

00:06:18.040 on Instagram or who prefer Patreon for discussions, how to get there is you go to vulgarhistory.com

00:06:23.840 slash book club and all the book club questions will be there as well. It's going to be slightly

00:06:28.560 different questions in both places. So if you want to take part in both sets of discussions,

00:06:32.520 feel free. So today I'm talking with Flora about the book. And then at the end of the month,

00:06:36.960 I'm going to be having a video chat with Flora that I'm going to post online as well after we

00:06:41.760 do it. And that's going to be where she, like today's discussion, Flora and I are just talking

00:06:46.000 about the book in the most awkwardly non-spoilery way, because I know the people listening to this

00:06:51.920 know the history really well. And her book has those historical events, but there's other stuff

00:06:56.560 in the book. So we mostly talk about the history, but then our video chat we're having towards the

00:07:01.040 end of the month, when many of you will have read the book is we're going to get into spoiler

00:07:05.120 discussion, like how she made the decisions she made, you know, there's characters in the book,

00:07:09.480 like the chambermaids who were like, she, you know, she came up with their personalities and

00:07:13.200 their stories and their hopes and dreams. So we're going to have a spoiler filled discussion

00:07:18.040 in a couple of weeks in a video chat. Today, I'm just introducing you all to Flora and to this

00:07:23.600 book. And I had so much fun talking about her. I love, I love these episodes that we sometimes have

00:07:29.680 where like, I know the minute detail about a historical person and I'm talking to somebody

00:07:35.200 who's written a book about it. So they have the same minute knowledge about the person and we can

00:07:41.760 just like really nerd out about it. And anyway, like, please enjoy this conversation with Flora

00:07:47.560 Carr and stay tuned afterwards I'll just have some reminders and some news of my own. So enjoy

00:07:55.120 this interview and talk to you in a bit. So I am very excited to be joined today by Flora Carr

00:08:07.580 author of this month's Vulgar History book club pick The Tower. Welcome Flora. I'm so happy to

00:08:15.540 be here thank you Anne. So when I first heard about your book which was from my friend friend

00:08:21.880 of the podcast Alison Epstein who I think she approached you to read it before it was even

00:08:28.080 I think you sent her a word document like she heard about it very early. Yes and I remember when

00:08:33.980 you reached out to me because this feels being on this podcast a very full circle moment because

00:08:39.880 I remember um I think you messaged me I think almost on the day that it was formally announced

00:08:50.120 that I had the publishing deal um and I remember you you sort of private messaged me and it was

00:08:58.900 such a wonderful moment for me because not only was it a sense of oh this is real this is really

00:09:04.980 happening at that moment it still felt very surreal that I had a publishing deal but also

00:09:09.480 it really gave me a sense of oh I think actually people will be might be interested to read this

00:09:18.420 book so it gave me a real boost I was so happy when you messaged me so yeah and also this is my

00:09:23.760 first podcast recording for the book in general so it's wonderful to be here yeah full circle moment

00:09:33.260 That's lovely. Yeah. Listeners don't know how early I approach authors to be on this podcast.

00:09:41.040 When I first heard that a book exists, I'm just like, hi, in approximately nine months,

00:09:45.300 do you want to be on my podcast? I just want to book you right now.

00:09:48.060 No, that's funny. I was wondering about how many interviews you've done, because this is going to

00:09:51.800 be different from other ones. Because I was thinking, almost, I'm going to say, maybe everyone

00:09:57.220 listening to this is familiar with the history of your book in a way that the average reader

00:10:03.680 is not. This is a group of listeners who know in minute detail exactly the history that you're

00:10:11.560 writing about. But part of what's exciting about your book to me is that you're writing about a

00:10:15.540 part of Mary Queen of Scots' history that's so seldom discussed. So the average person doesn't

00:10:22.500 know about the lock leave-in situation really because when you look at i mean a while ago i

00:10:29.180 we did a an episode we were looking at the saoirse ronan film but the same thing happens in the tv

00:10:34.540 show rain and other things where it kind of tells her story up to the point she's arrested and then

00:10:39.220 it's like time passes and then she's executed where it's like no like so many interesting

00:10:44.460 things happen after she's arrested such as the oceans 11 level heist escape lock leave-in and

00:10:51.760 I think I said in the podcast we did about that part of her life I was like why is this not a

00:10:56.000 movie why is this not a book like this is such a good narrative so I was curious to know how you

00:11:01.700 came to decide to write a book about this thing that is such a great story and I'm happy that

00:11:07.200 there's a book about it now yeah so I um I was thinking about this ahead of this recording how

00:11:14.500 it's a it's a in one sense it's a real shame that I didn't that you hadn't um recorded your um

00:11:22.260 there's something about Mary kind of segment on your podcast prior to me writing the book because

00:11:27.560 it would have been such an amazing resource for me but then on the other hand I think all the

00:11:35.420 characters in Mary's life are captured so distinctively in your kind of voice on the

00:11:42.460 podcast that I think is testament to your skill as an oral storyteller but I think that might have

00:11:48.560 really colored how I portrayed my version of the characters in the book so for example I know in

00:11:55.980 your podcast the Earl of Moray is a Hollywood icon Jimmy Stewart and I think I would have had a real

00:12:03.760 tough time getting that out of my head whilst writing the scenes with the Earl of Moray because

00:12:09.300 I love Jimmy Stewart oh it's true so yes when I started the right writing the book when I first

00:12:15.100 had the gem of the idea for the book I had never heard about this period in Mary Stewart's life

00:12:23.060 I was very interested in early modern Tudor history I thought I knew sort of the kind of

00:12:32.100 broad strokes of Mary Stewart's life and obviously everyone knows about her long

00:12:36.980 captivity in England. And then I stumbled across a kind of stray reference to her time at Loughleven

00:12:45.780 Castle. And it is such a pivotal, action-packed time in her life, this 11 months. As you said

00:12:55.820 earlier, it's a sort of Ocean's Eleven type sequence of events. And it is so pivotal to her

00:13:03.060 story. And I was very shocked that I'd never heard about it before, that often it is completely

00:13:08.460 brushed over in retellings of her life. I remember very shortly after I came across that reference,

00:13:15.080 there was a wonderful exhibition at the British Library in London, where I'm based,

00:13:21.080 about Mary Stewart and her relationship with Elizabeth I of England. And I went to that

00:13:29.320 exhibition looking for references to Loch Leven. I found maybe one line summarizing her 11 months

00:13:39.200 there and her miscarriage. And sorry, that's going into spoilers a little bit.

00:13:46.080 Here's the thing. The people listening to this podcast know the history. So I don't think

00:13:50.300 anything that's like the history is going to be a spoiler. We just won't talk specifically about

00:13:54.920 i was thinking like how are we going to do this because everyone listening to this knows the

00:14:01.280 actual events so i think we can talk safely about the actual events yeah okay yeah so this one line

00:14:08.420 that summed up her entire that that entire period of her life at lochleven castle and i just found

00:14:14.960 it extraordinary um that this story hadn't in my mind hadn't been properly told before and i think

00:14:22.560 Something else that appealed to me was the fact that previously, in my mind, Mary Stewart had very much been defined by her relationships to the men in her life.

00:14:36.920 So her three husbands, John Knox, the Earl of Moray, Hollywood icon Jimmy Stewart, or otherwise, Elizabeth I, a woman who she had never actually met in real life. 0.91

00:14:52.080 And there's this binary of Elizabeth I is the virgin, Mary Stewart is the whore. And what I really wanted to do was to reframe the narrative of Mary Stewart's life to look at this slice of her life through the lens of female friendship.

00:15:12.960 Because I think something that's extraordinary about Mary Stewart is because she evidently was an extremely charismatic person and she inspired incredible levels of devotion, not only in men, but in women too.

00:15:32.820 And there are many women who remained extremely loyal to her throughout her life. I know you've spoken about Lady Mary Seaton, who is one of the key characters in The Tower, my novel, and she was with Mary for many decades, as were several other characters who your listeners might not know as well, who are introduced in The Tower.

00:16:02.820 And I wanted to say, when I first got a copy, like an advanced copy of your book, and it was the very beginning of your book, you have a list of characters. And first of all, I always love a book that starts with a cast of characters. I always I like that. But it was it was enough months after I had done the Mary Cruz Scott's episode, I was just like, Oh, my God. And all the names of characters, I just got more and more excited. And some of them I had to be like, Wait, what did I call this person? Oh, that guy.

00:16:27.940 and remembering who is who and I was so excited especially okay so I did a bit ago I did a giveaway

00:16:35.400 on Instagram for an advanced copy of your book and my question was which character are you most

00:16:39.880 excited to see in this book what was the answer in the end the most popular answer was Mary Queen

00:16:45.100 of Scots I mean fairly of course obviously but in strong second place was William Douglas aka

00:16:51.380 young Willie people were really excited and I was really excited actually when Allison first

00:16:58.420 read the book I was like Allison is young Willie in this book and she's like yes he is I'm like

00:17:02.480 oh my god because I'm such a fan of this little teenage dirtbag he's I was really excited he's in

00:17:09.900 your book so honestly I read the list of characters and I had to like put it down I was just like I'm

00:17:13.980 too overwhelmed this is too exciting it's a book starring all these people who I feel this like

00:17:17.840 bizarre personal connection to all in a book i'm really i'm really curious were there any

00:17:22.680 characters so for example with willie douglas he is a little bit more kind of edgy he is a dirt bag

00:17:30.500 in the tower and i was wondering how that compared to how you had envisaged him um when you were

00:17:38.060 kind of going through mary stewart's uh life for the podcast i was honestly just excited he was

00:17:46.680 there at all because this story is so rarely told and i'm like but there's not a way to tell

00:17:52.780 the story without him he's such a crucial person in the like oceans 11 escape attempt no i was just

00:17:57.840 happy he was there full stop but also i mean he's the one good douglas right in that whole clan

00:18:04.460 i don't i feel like george you're missing you're missing george he's pretty great george is also

00:18:10.840 good you're right george and willie yes they were the two yeah good douglases but we meet um i mean

00:18:18.240 obviously she's agnes leslie rather than agnes douglas because of um the way that uh women didn't

00:18:25.960 take their husbands surnames um during that period in scotland but we meet agnes leslie in the tower

00:18:33.140 who is wife of William Douglas and she is William Douglas senior William Douglas senior yes sorry

00:18:42.160 we'll call him young Willie just so people know yes so William Douglas not with not young Willie

00:18:48.780 and she is his wife she is the lady of the household in name but in reality the lady of

00:18:59.960 the household is her mother-in-law, Margaret Erskine, who I believe that you talked about

00:19:04.920 in your podcast. She is the former mistress of Mary's father, James V. She is also the mother

00:19:15.440 of the Earl of Moray, Hollywood icon, Jimmy Stewart. And I really wanted to focus on those

00:19:23.760 two female jailers of um mary stewart in addition to the four central female characters who i

00:19:33.800 actually don't think we've we've spoken about properly should i go into that yeah yeah who

00:19:38.780 are the main characters of the book flora yeah so in addition to so that i should say so the book

00:19:49.320 it begins in for anyone who hasn't listened to your wonderful episode on the Loch Leven

00:19:56.380 stage of Mary Stuart's life the book begins in 1567 and it follows a young pregnant Mary Queen

00:20:07.540 of Scots after she is defeated by the rebel Scottish lords at Carbury Hill and she is

00:20:15.320 imprisoned at Loch Leven Castle, and she is accompanied by two chambermaids, the Scottish

00:20:23.800 Jane, Jane Kennedy, and then the young French woman Marie de Corsel, who I call Cuckoo in the

00:20:32.420 book. And then they're later joined by Lady Mary Seaton, who is a lady-in-waiting and a childhood

00:20:40.740 friend of mary stewart and the books have centers on those four women and the kind of hothouse

00:20:50.300 environment of the castle rooms and their interactions the the power shifts between them

00:20:58.800 tempers fraying alliances shifting and how these four women need to come together in order for

00:21:05.280 there to be any hope of them escaping. Jane and Cuckoo, are those based on actual people you know 0.74

00:21:12.580 were there? Or are they sort of like you're imagining of what they would have been like?

00:21:16.260 Yes. So there are various sources that state that there were two chambermaids who were with

00:21:24.660 Mary Stewart before Lady Seton was able to join her at Loch Leven. So two chambermaids,

00:21:32.340 not ladies in waiting that was part of a kind of power play on the part of the Scottish lords that

00:21:38.900 Mary Stewart wasn't furnished with any of her kind of the signifiers of her status she wasn't 1.00

00:21:47.860 she wasn't given her proper wardrobe she wasn't given her proper retinue of powerful young women

00:21:56.200 she was just provided with two kind of lowly chambermaids and then later Lady Seton shows up

00:22:04.720 and kind of the balance shifts and the power balance shifts the book kind of centers on

00:22:12.160 how the shifting power dynamics between those four women and also how kind of societal 0.99

00:22:20.380 how do I say this um do I've lost I've lost the word but how the boundaries between the women 1.00

00:22:30.260 break down like the kind of normal like the class distinctions yes so how the the class distinctions 0.93

00:22:37.160 kind of blur the class distinctions kind of blur between the the four women over the course of the

00:22:43.800 book I'm excited that you wrote this book I think it's a shame no one's written about this before

00:22:49.360 And I think, but that's to your benefit because you get to be the first one because everything

00:22:53.120 you're saying, it's just like, yeah, like, so just to clarify too, for the listeners

00:22:56.520 to recap, like Loch Leven is an island, like it's an island castle where she's being held.

00:23:02.060 So she can't easily escape.

00:23:03.660 Like to escape is going to involve a boat of some sort.

00:23:07.180 Someone has to row it.

00:23:08.020 Like she's really trapped there.

00:23:09.120 But then just as you're describing the dynamics of she's been, there's been so many powerful

00:23:14.280 men opposing Mary Queen of Scots up to this point.

00:23:16.420 And then when she's in prison, she's mostly surrounded by women, which is so that's also so fruitful. But also, yeah, what is it like to be for 11 months? It's like she's the queen, you're the chambermaid. But if you're all living basically the same life, yeah, of course, those distinctions would blur. Like things would get weird. If any four people are stuck together, I don't know, you know, like the big brother house or something.

00:23:41.660 like when people are trapped together in any situation like things are just going to get

00:23:46.380 weird and then there's the heightened stakes of course of she's the queen but then there's the

00:23:50.700 whole thing about is she going to be removed from being the queen is someone going to murder her is

00:23:55.960 her food being poisoned these aren't spoilers for your book this is just me remembering the history

00:23:59.880 of it all so like of course it's such a ripe situation but then where it's so compelling in

00:24:05.500 history and then a gift to you you're able to use this for your book is the Mary Queen of Scots never

00:24:10.840 like she isn't just like okay I guess I'm in prison now for the next 19 years of my life I'll

00:24:16.280 just lay back and let this happen like she's constantly scheming and trying to find ways

00:24:21.400 to who's there and who can help her and who's against her and who can she turn against who

00:24:26.380 like and you really capture that side of Mary Queen of Scots which is a much more active presence

00:24:31.420 than I think she's often portrayed as like I think in a lot of well because every Mary Queen

00:24:37.220 Scott's project ends with like 20 years later, she's executed. So it's kind of like you're

00:24:42.500 telling this story and people see it as like a sad, like it's a tragedy. Like she lived her

00:24:46.700 whole life just waiting to be executed. But your book does what I tried to do in the podcast,

00:24:52.180 which is like, if you sit with her in that moment, she doesn't know what's going to happen next.

00:24:56.520 As far as she knows, she needs to escape this prison and she's going to be queen again and

00:25:00.740 everything's going to be amazing. Like, so to sit with her in that moment where she is still

00:25:05.780 very committed to succeeding is a side of Mary, Queen of Scots you don't often see. Sorry,

00:25:12.240 you were going to say something. No, thank you. Thank you. That's wonderful to hear. Yeah, I was

00:25:18.160 thinking about this the other day. I was thinking about what my kind of first introduction to Mary

00:25:24.920 Stuart was. I was trying to remember. And I think it was the time slip young adult novel, beautiful

00:25:32.440 book, A Traveller in Time by Alison Utley. And in that, Mary Stewart is a kind of walk-on

00:25:41.780 role. But she is very much a kind of quiet, glamorous object of obsession for Anthony

00:25:54.320 Babington, the Catholic lord who oversaw the Babington plot. And as you say, in that,

00:26:02.800 it's a beautiful book, but in that, Mary Stewart has really absolutely no agency of her own. She

00:26:10.020 is imprisoned and kind of waiting around for loyal male supporters to engineer her rescue.

00:26:21.940 And when I was overlooking the kind of history of Loch Leven and also more generally her captivity, that wasn't the case at all.

00:26:34.540 She had a great deal of agency.

00:26:38.840 She was an incredibly brave woman who oversaw various escape plots.

00:26:48.140 I don't think history gives her enough credit. 0.98

00:26:53.440 She, again, going back to that kind of binary that I spoke about, the Elizabeth I is the virgin, Mary Stuart is the whore. 0.86

00:27:02.420 Either Mary Stuart is portrayed as the scheming Jezebel in history, or she is entirely stripped of her agency. 0.93

00:27:15.320 There doesn't seem to be any in between.

00:27:17.580 there's no kind of nuanced sort of portrayal of her sort of more broadly and I think that is

00:27:27.960 starting to change but I really wanted to kind of delve into the nuances of her character because

00:27:37.300 she was such a complex person she was so she was incredibly dynamic and charismatic she loved

00:27:46.360 dancing. She loved her friends. She loved sport. She also suffered from depressive episodes.

00:27:53.900 She had very bad luck with men, let's be honest. She was just such an incredible character to write.

00:28:03.360 And I think there is a real responsibility when it comes to writing real people,

00:28:10.580 particularly people who have who lived hundreds of years ago and when it comes to I don't know

00:28:17.940 like the question of um anachronism worked very hard to make sure that I didn't there wasn't any

00:28:26.260 erasure of those parts of her character that might be less palatable to a modern reader she was

00:28:34.380 very much anti-abortion, for example. She also believed very strongly that she needed a husband

00:28:43.940 in her life. There are reports of her telling the English ambassador after her wedding to Darnley

00:28:52.160 that she needed a husband. She wouldn't be able to function without one. History will

00:28:59.280 tell us whether she was right or wrong about that well obviously everything you just said

00:29:05.600 like it's it's such a disservice to her to and I think it's a result of like the propaganda that

00:29:13.000 was being written while she was still alive um and then especially was sort of unearthed like

00:29:18.460 in the Victorian era there was this big Tudor trend um so there's so many artwork of her looking

00:29:24.200 sad and tragic and sort of like swooning and with a dog always with a dog she loved her dogs

00:29:31.840 the sky terrors she loved the dogs she loved animals I think someone said that I think when

00:29:36.640 I asked what character are you most looking forward to I think someone did say the dogs

00:29:40.160 yeah so I think it's her story was always set against Elizabeth like in her life when it was

00:29:47.780 revisited by the Victorians um and also the Victorians we blame them a lot on this podcast

00:29:53.840 But part of that, as I understand it, was Queen Victoria was like, I need people to trust in me

00:29:59.700 as a young woman who's a queen. So like, I'm going to look back at Elizabeth and say, wasn't

00:30:03.740 she great? So there's a lot of stuff being like, Elizabeth was great. And that means Victoria will

00:30:08.160 also be great. Don't worry about it. She's a teenage girl, but Elizabeth proves queens are

00:30:14.260 great. And if that's your intent, then you have to show Mary was terrible. If everything she did

00:30:20.840 was great and correct and she executed mary queen of scots asterix she was like what i didn't sign 0.99

00:30:28.240 that paperwork but like she did therefore mary queen of scots has to have been the scheming

00:30:32.740 jezebel and then i think in the victorian era that's where it's like oh no she's actually a

00:30:36.280 victim but it's like but elizabeth could not be blamed so you have to like bend over backwards

00:30:41.140 to make mary be someone who it's okay that elizabeth executed because everything elizabeth

00:30:47.220 did has to be correct and then what like were my podcast like I was really happy to read so many

00:30:54.080 of the more recent works about Mary Queen of Scots that delve into the more interesting stuff and

00:30:57.920 then as I was doing the podcast I guess after you wrote the book those letters were discovered

00:31:02.300 the the ciphered letters from when she was in England that shows that she was she never stopped

00:31:08.620 like she was writing these letters in code like she was constantly trying to escape like I had

00:31:13.720 that happened those letters were discovered just before i did the episode about her years

00:31:18.120 in england and so i'm like okay i i had had the impression she sent which she was sent to england

00:31:23.840 and she's like i guess i'll just waste away for 20 years like with my dogs just do some embroidery

00:31:29.180 who cares but in fact the embroidery was treasonous um like she was doing these ciphered

00:31:35.220 letters like yeah the actual proof of what she was actually like and these letters show

00:31:40.220 like her actual words what she was writing what she was doing shows what she was actually like

00:31:44.980 outside of this like propaganda of like oh she deserved to be executed or whatever

00:31:51.700 i think part of her appeal the re the reason people have been interested in her story for so

00:31:59.100 long is that she is a very enigmatic historical figure precisely because of those gaps in our

00:32:09.740 knowledge just as you say the reason for that is because for half her life she was in captivity

00:32:18.240 and she was required to communicate via code so through sort of ciphered letters through

00:32:29.920 embroidery and I think that's a not knowing is so attractive in many ways there's that desire to

00:32:42.420 kind of um fill in those gaps and maybe as a fiction writer that's that is some part of the

00:32:51.340 appeal when it comes to Mary Stewart the desire to I think for so long there have been there's

00:32:58.120 been this erasure of women's stories and LGBTQ stories. I think it's only a slight spoiler to

00:33:09.220 say that there's a sapphic love story within the tower. And I think one of the wonderful things

00:33:17.340 about fiction is that it's this really useful tool in imagining those stories.

00:33:24.640 I can't remember who I've interviewed so many authors on my podcast, but there was someone, I think a couple of people have asked this question and they've answered similarly, you know, why did you decide to write novel rather than a biography or a historical book?

00:33:39.220 And it's because you can almost get like, there's room for you to imagine. I'm assuming you're probably similar, but like there's room for you to imagine, but it's also a way that you can really, if you're writing a nonfiction book, like I am, which has just been announced.

00:33:53.160 um yes congratulations like you have to be like here's the facts here's what happened

00:33:57.640 thank you so much um yeah that news just came out this week as we're recording this

00:34:03.180 you know what ann i think my answer is the reason i wrote fiction is because at the end of the day

00:34:13.280 I am not a historian. I did a great deal of research for this book. I read many biographies

00:34:24.400 of Mary Stewart. I read very widely around the period. I visited museums, galleries. I immersed

00:34:32.460 myself in the material culture of that period. I visited Loch Leven itself.

00:34:40.080 You did? I was going to ask you.

00:34:41.500 Yes, I did.

00:34:42.420 That's so cool.

00:34:42.960 But I think, yeah, at the end of the day, I am not a historian. I'm a fiction writer. And I owe a great debt to historians like yourself for really kind of delving into the archives and doing the amazing work that you do so well.

00:35:01.740 thank you and also I think what I've learned from other historical fiction writers too is like

00:35:09.540 if you're only writing the historical document like using if you're writing non-fiction you can

00:35:16.140 be like well this happened this happened this happened and like what my work what I do is I'm

00:35:19.600 like I imagine what else is going on but you know if you're stuck to just well this is the record

00:35:24.600 of what happened and you like I think in a historical fiction novel often that's how a lot

00:35:29.600 of people learn history because the novel is often more appealing to the average person than

00:35:34.220 some sort of like dense book of facts and information. But that also makes you see the

00:35:39.280 historical figures as people. There's a sort of historical truth to that also, because if all

00:35:45.180 you're doing is saying, well, this is the letter and this is the official proclamation, well,

00:35:49.480 that's what that person wanted to be written about them. But what were they actually like?

00:35:53.760 What were they actually doing? And I think that's where historical fiction, especially like you were

00:35:57.820 saying for for a lot of women's history for queer history like we don't have those records

00:36:04.540 specifically what people were thinking and doing so it's a way to illuminate parts of history like

00:36:11.220 oh I think it was I was talking with um Patterson Joseph who wrote the book about Charles Ignatius

00:36:16.600 Sancho the like black musician from the Regency era yes and he has done so much he spent his whole

00:36:24.220 life, practically just like reading about him and thinking about him. I needed a play about him.

00:36:28.300 And I asked like, well, why didn't you write a biography? Why did you write a fiction book?

00:36:31.180 And I think because there's not enough stuff to write a biography, you know, but if you write a

00:36:37.340 fiction book, then you can take that and imagine it. And that's the gift that a fiction writer has.

00:36:42.600 You can really delve into the history in a way, like if there's not enough facts to write a book,

00:36:48.120 but you can extrapolate that. Like Mary, Queen of Scots and Lockleaf, and we know

00:36:51.920 the events and what happened but what you do in your book and what you're able to do

00:36:55.800 and obviously you did all this history and I want I'm next I'm going to ask you about what

00:36:59.960 it's like in lock leaving but you can imagine where it's like you can read in a book like and

00:37:05.400 she was there for 11 months and you're like okay next paragraph but for you it's like no like

00:37:10.540 if she's there who is she with like how insane are these four people going to get being trapped

00:37:15.620 together like how scary is it to try to escape and then to be caught like and that's where your

00:37:21.420 book really brings it all to life in a way that makes the history stick more, like that makes

00:37:27.740 people appreciate it better than just a paragraph. It's like, oh, she was in Lockleaven. She had a

00:37:33.440 miscarriage. There was escape attempts, like moving on. Like, no, like I want to read a novel

00:37:39.140 about exactly that. And you wrote that novel. So thank you. But tell me about Lockleaven.

00:37:43.540 How did you, is there a ferry? How did you get there?

00:37:45.840 Oh, my goodness. So I am very much a writer who is inspired by place. So during my research period for this book, which took place over many months prior to actually ever putting pen to paper, I knew that I had to visit Loch Leven before I fully committed to writing the book.

00:38:14.820 because although there are sort of flashbacks within the book,

00:38:20.340 the majority of it takes place on this island.

00:38:23.980 So I knew that I really needed to be able to visualize it

00:38:28.120 and also that it was compelling enough for me to write about it.

00:38:32.360 I wanted it to be very, very atmospheric.

00:38:34.960 So the first time I visited it, I think it was in, was it 2021?

00:38:41.160 it was a period of time when the sort of in the UK there was still kind of um some lockdown

00:38:50.940 restrictions in place which meant that the actual castle itself wasn't accessible so I remember

00:38:58.300 sorry can I just say what I what I thought you're going to say and I know I'm wrong but I just want

00:39:03.420 to let you know what I was thinking and I was like so you had to switch places with somebody

00:39:07.240 put on a disguise hire a boat sneak your way out that's but that's not where you were going okay

00:39:14.440 okay I visited it twice if the second time the castle was still out of bounds for visitors I

00:39:21.580 think I probably would have just swam there um I I the first time I just remember pacing

00:39:27.980 up and down back and forth round and round the loch just viewing the castle island from every

00:39:35.260 angle and it's this this gorgeous place this this vast loch this tiny island with the ruins of the

00:39:46.700 castle and the area there's heather there are red squirrels it is um so beautiful so atmospheric

00:39:57.060 exactly how I was hoping it to be and then the second time I went back for research purposes I

00:40:03.940 was able to cross the the loch via a little boat to get to the island and it was a really strange

00:40:14.940 twist of fate because the boat in use that day it was called Mary Seaton it had Mary Seaton

00:40:21.760 written on the side of the boat and it just felt like this beautiful sign it just thrilled me

00:40:30.180 and both times it really confirmed in me

00:40:35.160 that this was what I wanted to write about.

00:40:38.400 So I've got so many more questions about your trip to Lochheven.

00:40:42.360 And now we're just going to take a break for a word from our sponsors.

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00:42:02.000 Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow dark

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00:42:19.860 Hi, I'm Whitney.

00:42:21.340 And I'm Katie.

00:42:22.320 And we're the hosts of True Crime Campfire.

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00:42:28.500 We get right to the story. 0.95

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00:44:21.900 My first question is, and this is from history.

00:44:24.940 This is not from your book, so no spoilers.

00:44:27.540 But there's the part where, in history, where Mary Queen of Scots has arranged for this kind of group of people to be waiting for her on the other side of the lock.

00:44:37.380 and they're not doing a very subtle job of hiding themselves or not making their horses make noise.

00:44:43.340 And so Mary and young Willie have to distract people. That's in history.

00:44:47.020 How far is the island from the shore? How far away is that?

00:44:55.120 It's pretty far, actually. I underestimated how vast in size the loch was.

00:45:05.060 it's really impersonate such an impressive location and the it's very it's almost intimidating when

00:45:14.700 you're standing at the edge of the loch because there are these wide these high um almost

00:45:23.180 mountainous hills surrounding the water it's almost like a I say I think I say in the book

00:45:30.100 like a giant lying on one side so yeah I think I think it's fairly I think it's fairly far you

00:45:37.860 you can see the you can see the land from the castle but I I think that helps explain why

00:45:54.020 the the fact that the party to whom you're referring to were a little bit obvious I think

00:45:59.960 that helps explain why they the game wasn't up as quickly as one might have thought yeah because I

00:46:08.420 that part of the story I found very funny because it's just like do you know how hard she's worked

00:46:13.540 on this scheme and you're just standing there in the like middle of the day looking obvious

00:46:17.820 but if it's further away that makes sense yeah if you don't know to look for them maybe that's

00:46:22.720 interesting so like when you're on your little boat the Mary Seton going to the island like can

00:46:27.360 you estimate like how long how many minutes that was to get from shore to there oh um I would

00:46:35.100 recommend any of your listeners if they visit Scotland um if they visit Edinburgh it's quite a

00:46:41.980 short journey from Edinburgh to Loch Leven it's Nick and Ross and it's really worth the trip and

00:46:51.120 yeah I would probably estimate maybe like a like a five ten minute yeah ten minute boat crossing

00:46:59.620 from the jetty to the island jetty um so it must have been quite a in Mary Stewart's time with all

00:47:09.740 the rowing and was the boat you're in like were they rowing it with oars or was it like an electric

00:47:14.960 boat it was an electric boat i'm afraid to say it wasn't a a rowing situation right so if you're

00:47:22.640 rowing it might be a bit longer depending on yeah probably the skill of the rower yeah i'm just

00:47:28.940 thinking i'm probably not imagining imagining being taken there but then also trying to escape

00:47:36.060 from there which mary does more than once the suspense of those 10 minutes like five minutes

00:47:42.060 like even two minutes would feel like an eternity. If you're just like in the middle of a lock being

00:47:46.700 like, are we going to make it? Are we not going to make it? But actually speaking of the boat

00:47:50.340 again. So I told you when I first got the manuscript and I saw the cast of characters

00:47:56.040 and I just like, got so excited. I had to put it down because I was so excited. And then I'm like,

00:47:59.860 okay, now, you know, a few minutes later, I'm like, I'm going to read this book. And then I

00:48:02.620 started reading the book and I was like, oh my God, it's Lindsay. And I'm like, Lindsay,

00:48:06.360 I know him. And then I had to put it down again, but I don't know. It's because I spent so long

00:48:11.780 doing those episodes, I was thinking that was basically like me researching a book. So like

00:48:17.280 25 episodes or whatever I did about Mary Queen of Scots, but all these characters, I'm just like,

00:48:21.320 I remember Lindsay because he's the one person not named James. And I was just excited to have

00:48:26.580 people in it. And you know, Lindsay is awful. And I'm like, he was awful in your book. So anyway, 1.00

00:48:31.420 can you explain how you dealt with the fact that everyone is called James in your book and all the

00:48:37.200 women are all called agnes yeah i i was gonna say not not just that not just james and agnes but the

00:48:44.560 fact that everyone's called mary so with the um so there's mary stewart there's marie de corsel

00:48:53.540 the french chambermaid who um i nickname cuckoo and then mary seaton one of the four mary's um

00:49:02.100 who is referred to, I think in your episode about the four Marys, you referred to her as

00:49:07.420 Seton. And I coincidentally did so as well in the, in the tower. So those are four very similar

00:49:15.800 names. And then, so there's Agnes Leslie, one of the, um, one of Mary Stewart's jailers at Loch

00:49:24.300 Cleveland. She shares a name with the Earl of Moray's wife, who's also called Agnes, but who I

00:49:34.200 called Anna in the book. And then with James, luckily, there aren't too many men in the tower

00:49:45.980 that focuses more on the female stories. But again, yeah, just everyone in that period just

00:49:52.140 seemed to be called James just as in um uh sort of with Hilary Mantel in um Wolf Hall everyone

00:50:01.000 seems to be called Thomas I'm just thinking of so um Philippa Gregory she wrote a gazillion books

00:50:07.860 about the Tudor era but one of them was the Spanish Princess which was made into a tv series

00:50:12.200 and I hadn't read the Spanish Princess the book but I'm familiar with the tv series

00:50:15.740 and there's three Margarets in that and so one of them is Maggie how did she Maggie one of them is

00:50:22.520 Maggie and one of them is Meg like you just have to do something because otherwise yeah uncontrollable

00:50:30.440 and that's where in my podcast like I got increasingly unhinged when like a new person

00:50:35.680 called James enters the story and I'm just like I'm out of nicknames there's no more there's no

00:50:40.220 more nicknames I can't think of what to even call this one there's this is it's too many and then

00:50:45.280 another James shows up and I'm just, I don't even know. Oh yeah. So, um, William Douglas

00:50:50.980 senior, who's in your book. I called him WD 40. I forget why. Like by the time I got to that

00:50:57.840 story, I was just like, this is too many names. And somebody did say him in my giveaway. They

00:51:03.780 were like WD 40. I'm like, Oh yeah, he's in the book too. And I'm like, I forgot I gave that

00:51:06.980 nickname. Yeah. But it's, I think any, I've been reading recently for upcoming episodes about

00:51:14.080 american history like around the american revolution era and there's some real interesting

00:51:19.920 names and i'm so grateful because like i think it's a particular american thing but maybe it's

00:51:27.300 like a lower class british thing also from that era like the wealthy people are all called mary

00:51:33.560 and james and elizabeth and then the children are all called like hercules and like i don't know

00:51:39.960 like they god bless there's just in this American history everyone has a weird name that's different

00:51:45.500 from everyone else and I was just it's just a treat for me after after sitting in a Scottish

00:51:50.160 history for so long yeah I think with with fiction that this is another thing so the difference

00:51:58.260 between um historical biographies and then fiction at the end of the day you are serving

00:52:07.620 the reader when you are writing fiction and I think the reader is always intelligent

00:52:15.400 they they always know this is fiction they are they are clever enough to distinguish that that

00:52:23.120 this isn't a kind of historical biography and they realize with renaming characters it's just

00:52:31.200 a way of easing the reader's journey into the story that you have written for them.

00:52:39.640 And I think that's a nice thing about historical fiction. I've talked to some other historical

00:52:45.340 nonfiction writers, and one of them had mentioned she wanted to put in some nicknames for some of

00:52:50.700 the characters where their names were so visually similar. And the editor's like, nope, nope,

00:52:54.600 because it's nonfiction. You can't do that. You have to just... It's this ancient Frankish

00:52:58.900 kingdom where all the names are like very visually unfamiliar to most people and the names are

00:53:03.920 exactly the same except the last two letters are different and she's like this is preposterous like

00:53:08.620 everyone's going to confuse them but they're like sorry about that that's that's the names

00:53:11.960 oh god I couldn't couldn't do that no exactly and that's where and that's part of why I think

00:53:18.320 you said like historical fiction serves the reader and I think that's part of where

00:53:21.300 like for myself too like I think a lot of historical characters I first encounter in

00:53:25.740 historical fiction or in a film or something, because that's taking the history and making it

00:53:31.700 approachable, making it intentionally understandable to a contemporary audience. And actually, that's

00:53:37.340 another question I have about writing a book that's set in this like extremely long ago time

00:53:41.840 period, but you write it for a reader of, you know, 2024. How did you balance like the way that

00:53:48.880 people would have spoken, like the words they would have used? Like you don't want to be like

00:53:52.900 forsooth or whatever like you don't want to alienate people but you don't want it to sound

00:53:57.620 too modern like how did you strike that balance or what was that like from the outset i was very keen

00:54:05.080 that i didn't want to do cod shakespearean language but i did i tried to convey some of the

00:54:17.960 formalities of the language and what I also did was when I was researching for the book

00:54:25.580 I read some of Mary Stewart's letters and there are some sort of lines or

00:54:33.560 little moments in the book where it's lifted or lightly adapted from what she herself wrote so

00:54:44.960 So, for example, after her first wedding to Francis II of France, she wrote to her mother, Marie de Guise, and she said something along the lines of,

00:54:59.740 it was the happiest day of my life. And I have her thinking that or reiterating that at some point in the book.

00:55:10.720 it was a difficult balance and I'm sure you have a lot of a lot of other fiction writers who

00:55:18.720 probably say the same did you have to just recently I was speaking with a writer who

00:55:25.980 she had written contemporary books before and then she wrote her first historical fiction

00:55:29.520 and she was going on like various websites to be like when was this word first spoken

00:55:36.240 yes when was this metaphor first said it's like oh no this was first said in you know a movie in

00:55:42.440 1950 like I can't like did you have to go into that level of like oh this phrasing wasn't invented

00:55:51.160 until like did you have to go through that process yeah there was one there's what I remember very

00:55:57.040 distinctly I there was like a back and forth between my um US editor and I where I there was

00:56:05.820 a scene where something happens to one of the characters and then I write that she um replays

00:56:12.620 it in her mind and when I when we were going through the editing process I suddenly thought

00:56:19.720 oh is I I was very anxious about the use of the word replay and I because in my mind that's

00:56:28.520 of associated with sort of I don't know like rewinding and replaying like a VHS or a DVD

00:56:36.040 or like a video but none of the other words that I could think of kind of conveyed the

00:56:44.760 the exact meaning that I wanted to sort of portray on the page the the visual aspect of her

00:56:55.620 replaying the scene in her mind and how vivid it was to her. And I think we found an instance

00:57:03.600 of that word in the end where it had been used in the 16th century. After all, I think we maybe

00:57:12.140 went on OED. I am sure there will be some cases perhaps where a modern word slip through. It is

00:57:22.620 so hard to comb through an entire book's worth of language but we I did my very utmost best to try and

00:57:33.900 capture the feel of the 16th century well and also I if you've listened to my podcast you know

00:57:44.420 that I love the television show rain for instance so so I'm not ever going to be a person who's like

00:57:50.600 that's not historically accurate. I think that, yeah, if you had like your book, I think it's

00:57:57.080 very like anyone could pick it up and read it. It's not written like a Shakespearean manuscript.

00:58:02.560 It's not oldie timey talking, but yeah, for me, if some, some current words pop in, I'd be like,

00:58:09.180 that's cute. I like that. This is like a little rain moment, but oh yeah. What I was going to say

00:58:14.100 also is that, so your book, because it's set in this very specific time period, almost all

00:58:20.300 except for sort of flashbacks like it takes place in this one setting which is Loch Leven

00:58:23.940 castle so it's a bit of like the lion in winter vibes of just like people in a castle and they're

00:58:30.120 all stuck together and they're going increasingly insane I think it would be a great play or movie

00:58:35.940 have you I feel very I feel very similarly that I think I can see it really vividly on stage

00:58:43.500 with like a revolving stage I don't know why I can see that very clearly in my mind's eye um

00:58:51.040 sorry what we what was your question no I think I was just saying that out loud and I'm glad that

00:58:55.400 you've thought of that as well well I don't know just for me just like it takes place all in one

00:58:58.700 place like this could be not right so then because it's all in one place at one time and you have

00:59:04.840 sort of like these key historical events you know that happens like you know there's this escape

00:59:10.040 attempt. And this is how it, this is what she tried to do, for instance. But in your book,

00:59:15.020 I like that you see how they think of those, because what we know from history is like,

00:59:18.840 she tried this and it worked or it didn't work, but you have them, oh, like this happens that

00:59:24.580 makes them think like, oh, we could try this as our, like you see them, Mary Queen Scott's coming

00:59:28.980 up with the plans, which is a really fun. I hadn't thought about that until I read your book. And I'm

00:59:33.260 like, how did she think of these plans? She didn't just show up on the island with like,

00:59:36.400 okay, this is my plan. This is my plan. Like she had to see something that inspires her.

00:59:42.480 Yeah. Again, I wanted to give her, give her back her agency in terms of, um, conveying to the

00:59:52.320 reader, just how cunning and strategic she could be when she was really under pressure.

00:59:58.320 she could really deliver in terms of formulating plans escape plans and this is sort of throughout

01:00:08.360 her life not just during this period i know in your podcast you've covered the period in her life

01:00:15.340 after the murder of david rizzio and um just the the bravery and the fortitude that she

01:00:23.440 exhibited when she uh sort of faked a miscarriage and was able to escape right from under the

01:00:33.760 noses of the Scottish lords after that period um it's just extraordinary to me I think still

01:00:41.300 and I think this is it's similar in this to that in the sense of it's a funny thing with

01:00:47.600 Mary Queen of Scots it seems to me she comes up with these incredible plans this incredible bravery

01:00:52.620 a lot of it owes to the fact that she's surrounded by people who are so loyal to her like you were

01:00:57.060 saying she was so charismatic like the escaping after the rizzio murder like she had the help of

01:01:02.300 the like the woman with the chamber pot like passing secret notes like and then the men

01:01:07.260 didn't think to be mistrustful of the women servants like she knew that when the odds are

01:01:11.960 the worst against her it's when her best plans come out like she's somebody who really thrives

01:01:18.020 under pressure where somebody else would buckle and the whole sequence of events in the tower

01:01:22.020 especially early on, like she gets there. I mean, she's been arrested. They're trying to get her to

01:01:27.980 abdicate. She's pregnant, which is always difficult for her because she has these 0.95

01:01:33.440 various health conditions. Like things could not be worse for a person, for her in this situation. 0.97

01:01:41.720 And yet, like, so you see her at these lows, like these incredible lows, like we mentioned,

01:01:45.960 the miscarriage and everything. And yet she, I think people who skip over this part of her life

01:01:52.260 imagine she would just sort of lie around there being like, Oh, I'm in jail now. I guess I'll

01:01:56.440 just be sad. But the fact that in the worst situations, that's where she succeeds the most

01:02:02.460 is like an interesting character trait of hers. But also I think a gift to you as a writer to

01:02:08.760 have somebody, cause you know, when you're writing fiction, it's always like, Oh, the stakes have to

01:02:12.380 be high like how can you increase the stakes and it's like that's all there for you like things

01:02:16.300 could not be worse for her but she's the sort of person who overcame that i think one of the

01:02:23.420 both brilliant and very difficult things about mary stewart is that she is a contradictory person

01:02:33.480 in many ways where she has these flashes of brilliance but then also during her life she

01:02:42.360 does make these decisions where in hindsight you question her decision-making capabilities

01:02:50.400 so for example when she decides to go to England after the events at Loch Leven for example but I

01:03:00.340 think that's one of the joys of her character that she isn't just one thing she is multifaceted

01:03:06.420 and also I think things like and what I strive to do in my podcast too and why it was you know

01:03:14.500 700 episodes long was because so much it's so easy to look back and be like oh that was a bad

01:03:22.000 decision she made but like so I tried to look at like well here's the things in front of her

01:03:27.420 These are the options that she would have seen. This is what she would have thought. And here's

01:03:32.120 why she made that decision. Like it's so easy to criticize anybody and be like, oh, why would she

01:03:37.680 marry Lord Darnley? It's like, how could she have known that he was the worst human being in the

01:03:44.620 world? I agree completely with you. And one of the things I tried to do with the Tao was sort of

01:03:50.180 explain her decision making so for example her decision to I kind of give her the germ of the

01:03:58.120 idea of fleeing to England within the tower the idea that if the next phase of her plan fails

01:04:06.740 as she's defeated by the Scottish lords again that she will go to England instead of France

01:04:14.780 where she was a dowager queen. And there are various reasons for that. And I don't want to

01:04:22.520 go too much into spoilers. But one of the reasons, for example, is that she had a difficult 0.73

01:04:29.500 relationship with her first mother-in-law, Catherine de' Medici. So that's one of the

01:04:36.380 reasons that I go into. Yeah, it's when I first, I think in the first Mary Queen of Scots episodes,

01:04:43.680 I did but also just the way that I approach anything in history or the way that I I find

01:04:48.180 myself falling into patterns and I force myself out of it where you know a terrible thing that's

01:04:52.780 going to happen to somebody it's so easy to be like well here's the sad life of so and so like

01:04:57.060 let's look at her life knowing that Cleopatra like we know it at the end she's going to kill

01:05:01.040 herself so like how did you but it's like no if you sit in the history and you look at it moment

01:05:07.440 to moment like I don't like how people like Mary Queen of Scots it's like oh it's a sad story she

01:05:12.000 had a tragic life it's like no like her death was tragic but that doesn't retroactively mean

01:05:17.240 her life was tragic and she had so many victories throughout they get forgotten like it depends

01:05:23.600 someone like um Catherine of Aragon like I mentioned the Spanish princess before but

01:05:28.500 like that there's that's a victory for her when she marries Henry VIII in the first place like

01:05:34.980 to both of them they're like this is great this is our happy ending and that's if you stop the

01:05:39.820 story there, it is. So, you know, it just depends where you start the story and where you end the

01:05:43.400 story, if it's happy or not. And Loch Leven, I mean, anyone who's listening to this podcast

01:05:47.500 to this point, it's like, she does escape from there at the end. Like, this is like, I mean,

01:05:55.480 the people listening to this know this. And you just mentioned she gets to England later.

01:05:58.280 But like, this is a part of Mary Stewart's life that does end with a success. And it's nice to

01:06:04.920 have a book like that in the world that's not just another oh her sad death the end yes you're

01:06:12.380 totally right in the with fiction the writer is asking the reader with historical fiction to

01:06:21.200 suspend their disbelief to sort of suspend their foreknowledge of what's to come

01:06:30.540 With Mary Stewart, it's very difficult because the end of her story is perhaps the most famous part of her story. So it is a real balancing act.

01:06:44.400 And I walk a really fine tightrope in the book where I do foreshadow and in a few instances call out exactly what's going to happen to some of the characters in the book.

01:07:01.560 But at the same time, I am asking the reader to suspend that foreknowledge and focus on the moment in time that the tower is set in.

01:07:15.720 And that's partly why I set it in, I wrote it in present tense rather than past tense, because it lends that sense of immediacy.

01:07:24.900 that's so interesting to think about writing a book about a historical person and this is like

01:07:30.820 i mean the example i'm going to say is like shakespeare for instance like when he was

01:07:35.820 writing one of his history plays like the audience knows what's going to happen to

01:07:39.200 whoever henry v later on so he's writing it knowing that the audience knows what's going

01:07:44.620 to happen but you still are like they're having a nice time wondering like oh is he going to

01:07:49.640 succeed or not so yeah that's such an interesting fine line for you yeah just I don't know it'd be

01:07:55.820 like writing a book about some nice part of Marie Antoinette's life or something where it's like

01:08:00.880 everyone reading it is just like we know she's gonna be have her head chopped off but you're

01:08:05.160 like yeah but that's not what this book's about like yeah so I and I do like that there's sort

01:08:09.820 of those those nods because your book is very um I don't want to say like the mind palace but

01:08:15.780 there's a lot of sort of like inside the inner world of people which I think when you're trapped

01:08:22.080 in a tower for 11 months your inner life does get what else do you have except sort of your

01:08:28.480 thoughts and your memories yeah well I think a lot of the book is sort of told it's third person

01:08:36.940 narrative but it's quite close to one particular character which is Jane who I mentioned before

01:08:46.200 the young Scottish chambermaid and she is a very interior person she has a very rich

01:08:55.920 inner life but she is quite quiet and reserved and I think part of the joy in writing the book

01:09:05.020 we slowly learn more and more about her and the importance that Mary Stewart holds for her

01:09:14.560 in her life and what exactly she will risk and sacrifice in order to maintain her position

01:09:24.180 in Mary's retinue. And that's where I think, you know, the stage play, she would have a lot of

01:09:29.100 soliloquies. Oh, definitely. She would kill those. She'd be great. That's a killer. That's

01:09:36.480 killer casting. The main character, I think. Yeah. So I wanted to just talk to you and also

01:09:44.800 everyone about the book club nature of what we're doing with this book. So what I'm going to be

01:09:51.400 doing is on Instagram and also for free on Patreon, I'm going to be posting like a discussion question

01:09:57.800 every week, the first of which will be there today when people hear this episode. And so you

01:10:03.820 are welcome to, I don't, I would not blame you at all. If you're just like, I don't want to know

01:10:09.760 what people are saying, but if you want to pop in, like I know you're on Instagram, you can kind of

01:10:13.300 see what, what people are saying. So you may or may not want to involve yourself, but then what

01:10:18.640 we're going to do, you and I is we've made a date about a few weeks from now where we're going to

01:10:23.920 record a video conversation yes I'll be wearing makeup for that recording for sure I will be

01:10:33.100 I'll probably not be sitting in front of my dish rack at that point but yeah and what that

01:10:37.280 conversation is going to be like that'll be questions that have come up from listeners I

01:10:42.300 think like once people have read the book and that's where we can get into like a more spoilery

01:10:46.360 discussion of your book itself yes I'm so excited for that yeah and I hope I hope that'll be fun for

01:10:53.460 you too, because I'm sure it's very challenging for you, not in this interview, but in other

01:10:58.020 interviews to explain what your book is about without saying what happens in it. So that'll

01:11:03.100 just be like a nice catharsis for you to just be like, yeah, let's talk about this. Let's talk

01:11:06.720 about the last page. Let's talk about, so that's coming up listeners. There's going to be, so

01:11:11.840 discussion questions on Instagram, just in the main grid as well as on Patreon and all those,

01:11:18.160 the links I'll put in the show notes for how you get there. And then, yeah. And so stay tuned for

01:11:22.540 our follow-up conversation both of us looking very glamorous um on video but so your book your

01:11:31.120 book is just coming out like the day that this episode comes out I think your book came out

01:11:34.580 yesterday and I think it's simultaneous in North America and the UK is that correct in North

01:11:41.240 American territories the book will be published on the 5th of March by my wonderful US publisher

01:11:50.180 double day. And then on the 7th of March, it will be published by my wonderful UK-based

01:12:00.420 publisher Hutchinson Heinemann, which is a penguin imprint. And that will be, I think,

01:12:07.020 available in the UK and Commonwealth countries. That's interesting. Two days apart.

01:12:15.120 Yes. So two days apart.

01:12:17.160 The week that people hear this episode, you can either buy the book or you can buy it tomorrow, depending on where you are.

01:12:23.760 But so that way, which is also, I think, really helpful.

01:12:27.000 And part of why it's the book club pick is just people from various countries can all read it at the same time.

01:12:32.140 Sometimes there's a six month gap between the UK publication and the North American publication.

01:12:37.080 So it's coming out. And what do you have planned?

01:12:40.900 What events are you doing for the launch week?

01:12:43.880 so I'm doing a few um UK based bookshop events of in the lead up to the launch um and then on the

01:12:55.760 actual launch day itself I'm doing like a little launch party for my friends and family in Covent

01:13:02.720 Garden in London which will be really fun and yeah um so far I've done a few really lovely events

01:13:11.020 I was at Cheltenham Literary Festival last year, which is quite a big UK based literary

01:13:20.960 festival.

01:13:22.220 There are a few other things in the pipeline, but I'm not sure I can talk about them just

01:13:26.800 yet.

01:13:27.420 But yeah, very exciting.

01:13:29.280 Very exciting.

01:13:30.820 To have it.

01:13:31.980 I've been following, I mean, I follow you on Instagram and I've seen you've been taking

01:13:35.820 pictures at different bookshops and things.

01:13:37.800 And so it'll be so nice for you to actually have the actual book out in the world, I think.

01:13:43.840 Yeah, because The Tower is my debut book, everything is brand new for me.

01:13:51.060 It's very surreal and exciting and I'm not taking anything for granted.

01:13:59.360 I'm just trying to enjoy every moment, like this wonderful podcast recording that we've just done.

01:14:05.620 and I'm happy to help support the book as well but just as soon as I heard about it

01:14:11.040 and I think that was before I had started doing book clubs and then when I did I'm like this is a

01:14:16.980 no-brainer it's like of course we need to do this revoker history book club like this is

01:14:21.140 an iconic like that episode I think was one of the most fun that I recorded it's such a fun story

01:14:27.420 And partially because it had like, she does escape. Like, I think we did the recordings for that. My friend Allison and I, we did two recordings that day. And the first one was just like her marriage to Bothwell, which is like the darkest, most depressing era. And then, and then we recorded Lockleaf in the same day afterwards, because we both needed to kind of end with a happier story.

01:14:52.060 but anyway it's just it's a story that i think really resonated with people like young willie

01:14:56.360 people are really excited i was so excited he's in the book anyway i think it's just it's so vulgar

01:15:02.800 history coded like you mentioned there's like this sapphic love story as well like we're all

01:15:06.820 about queer representation on this podcast as well so it's just like it's everything and i'm

01:15:11.140 really excited to talk about this book that's the other thing i read it and i was like i can't talk

01:15:16.100 about this with anyone because it's not a book yet, but soon. So soon it will be. Okay. So where

01:15:26.220 can people, I mean, so tell people where they can keep track of your activities and stuff.

01:15:30.540 Yes. So I'm on Instagram at Floricar with two R's, um, 13, Floricar 13. And then on Twitter

01:15:42.400 at floricar underscore so you can follow me on both those platforms just to keep up with

01:15:49.540 because i imagine this will be i don't know how much you generally post on social media but like

01:15:56.400 the amount of events and things you have coming up i think this will be there'll be a lot to keep

01:16:00.060 up with you in the next weeks thank you thank you so much yeah i'm really excited to have this like

01:16:07.960 month-long journey with you and your book and I I'm excited also for our next conversation

01:16:13.860 because I could be like how did it go what's it been like what's the response I'm so excited for

01:16:21.420 our next conversation I'm so excited for us to be able to talk about so much of the book and so much

01:16:27.620 what I hope your listeners will like about the book is the interpersonal dynamics between

01:16:36.980 the six key women. So Mary, Seton, Cuckoo, Jane, Agnes, and Margaret Erskine. And I'm so excited

01:16:48.880 for your readers to sort of delve into that and for you and I to be able to discuss that.

01:16:59.200 Exactly. Without having to be like, Ooh, can I say that? Yeah. But so that's coming up later

01:17:04.740 this month listeners but yeah so again you can keep up with the book club about this book um

01:17:10.340 on instagram and on patreon and the tower by flora carr like buy it read it borrow it from your

01:17:16.560 library if your library doesn't have it send them an email saying please buy this book yeah just

01:17:22.360 acquire it i think it's going to be a really fun month and thank you so much for joining me and for

01:17:27.480 for being our book club author this month thank you so so much for having me thank you em

01:17:34.740 so the tower by flora carr is a book that you should be able to buy so i mean this week you

01:17:46.560 know if you're in north america it should be in your bookstores now if you're in the uk or

01:17:51.120 the commonwealth it should be in your bookstores tomorrow i mean you know go on this weekend stop

01:17:56.900 by your local independent bookstore or wherever to pick it up if your library if you place a

01:18:01.500 library hold usually as a person who works at a library it can sometimes take like a week or two

01:18:06.420 for the book to get to the library because there's all those labels and catalog they have to do but

01:18:10.680 place your library holds like let's read this book like let's all read this book and I'm going to be

01:18:15.640 posting discussion questions so if you go on to Instagram today March 6th on Instagram I posted

01:18:22.700 the first discussion question which is just like are you hyped for this book what are you most

01:18:26.420 excited to read about in it which person or situation or thing um that are you excited are

01:18:32.700 you curious about who is the sapphic love story going to be between like just our first that's

01:18:38.740 just our first discussion question just like everyone being excited about it and then if you

01:18:42.460 go to vulgarhistory.com book club or if you go to patreon there's a book club collection there

01:18:48.940 we're going to have some discussion questions there as well so you can take part and i think

01:18:53.280 today, that discussion is going to be the same question there. Just like, what are you most

01:18:57.300 excited about? So we're going to be talking about the book club month on Instagram and also on

01:19:02.100 Patreon. And again, this is a free thing. The book club stuff on Patreon is always free. You

01:19:06.740 don't have to, you can join with a free membership in order to take part. And then in a few weeks,

01:19:12.240 we're going to have the follow-up conversation with Flora, where we're going to get into all

01:19:16.120 the spoiler discussion. So leading up to that, I'm going to post one of the weekly questions

01:19:20.720 will be like what questions do you have for flora and then you know that'll be involved in that so

01:19:25.420 like all month it's the tower month it's we're just dusting off that mary queen of scott's part

01:19:30.800 of all of our brains remembering all these people like young willie you know god bless it's it's

01:19:37.520 such a good book i'm really excited to talk about it with all of you so yeah on instagram and then

01:19:43.840 vulgarhistory.com book club is where you can talk about it and all the links to buy the book and

01:19:48.160 stuff are in the show notes as well. My news, and we alluded to this in the podcast a little bit,

01:19:55.140 can you hear Hepburn? She's purring here right next to the microphone. Anyway, my news is that, 1.00

01:20:00.020 do you remember in the Carolina Brunswick episode, I mentioned that the existence of this podcast was

01:20:05.700 kind of a long con because I wanted to write a book about Carolina Brunswick, but I had to sort

01:20:10.300 of make myself a notable enough person that somebody would want to buy a book that I wrote.

01:20:16.180 it worked tits out brigade um i'm so excited to let you know that an imprint called hanover

01:20:23.120 square press which is uh part of harper collins is uh going to be publishing my book about carolina

01:20:28.960 brunswick it's called rebel of the regency and what does that mean well it means i'm gonna have

01:20:36.440 a book so i'm gonna have to do an episode where i interview myself i guess but i have i need to

01:20:41.220 write the book now. That's going to have some trickle down effects on the podcast this year.

01:20:47.280 There's always going to be a weekly episode. I'll keep you updated as to what's going on with the

01:20:50.960 podcast. But basically, thank you to all of you, the Tits Out Brigade, because, you know, I spoke

01:20:56.380 my dream onto the podcast and I asked for your good vibes. And, you know, a few weeks after that

01:21:02.480 episode came out, the editor, Eden from Hanover Square Press, put in an offer to buy my book

01:21:09.780 project idea. So I feel like the Tits Out Brigade, you're all kind of my fairy god people in that 0.57

01:21:16.060 whole situation. So anyway, that's my personal news. The vulgar history news is just, we're all 0.99

01:21:21.920 going to read this book, The Tower, and we're going to talk about it. And I am so excited for

01:21:27.780 that to all happen. And yeah, so I mean, Instagram, we're a vulgar history pod, and that is where the

01:21:34.420 book club discussion is going to be. And that's also where you can just come see what I'm up to

01:21:38.800 and whatever. And we have merch available. If all of this Mary Queen of Scots talk has you all up

01:21:45.700 in your feels about Mary Queen of Scots, we have, uh, there's various Mary Queen of Scots merch

01:21:49.780 designs. There's one that's like the names of all the four Marys. It's like Seton and Fleming and

01:21:54.420 Livingston, you know, like that sort of look. There's also, um, John Knox saying whores there's 0.96

01:22:01.480 where's your God now, John Knox, constant bestseller of my merch anyway. So you can get 0.92

01:22:07.160 vulgarhistorymerch at vulgarhistory.com store. Or if you're outside the US, the shipping is a bit

01:22:12.000 better if you go to vulgarhistory.redbubble.com. And if you're just like, I feel like getting

01:22:17.280 some jewelry that is a tribute to some difficult women, then you should check out our brand

01:22:23.440 partner, Common Era Jewelry. So this is a woman owned small business that makes jewelry with lots

01:22:30.980 of women that we've talked about on the podcast and other women from history. So, I mean, the

01:22:36.580 most tangentially close to Mary Queen of Scots would be the Anne Boleyn pendant. But there's

01:22:41.680 also lots of people like Boudicca, Cleopatra, Agrippina, pendants, rings. It's all jewelry

01:22:48.380 inspired by, and there's also like muses and people from ancient Greek Roman mythology. 0.99

01:22:54.960 It's beautiful jewelry that's all a tribute to the kind of tits out women who we like to celebrate 1.00

01:22:59.640 on here. I personally have the Medusa necklace just because I love the concept of a lady with 1.00

01:23:05.360 snakes for hair who turns men into stone anyway when i say she's a brand partner i mean that we

01:23:11.460 have a discount code so if you want to get some pieces from them you can get 15 off all items

01:23:20.020 from there by going to commonera.com slash vulgar or using code vulgar at checkout that's commonera.com

01:23:26.780 slash vulgar or use code vulgar at checkout and you can get in touch with me there's a form at

01:23:33.520 vulgarhistory.com. If you want to get in touch with me, you can also email me vulgarhistorypod

01:23:37.580 at gmail.com. And transcripts of recent episodes are available at vulgarhistory.com. Thank you to

01:23:43.760 Aveline Malek from The Wordery for providing these transcripts. And you know, it's a big episode this

01:23:50.180 week. I had that personal news to share, but also this book club, like I'm unbelievably excited

01:23:56.860 about this book. It's like, it was written just for the tits out brigade. Like I mean it when I 0.88

01:24:01.560 say like I picked it up and had to keep putting it down because I was so overwhelmed with emotion

01:24:04.880 of just seeing the names of these people and the fact that this book exists. It's like,

01:24:09.300 it's like Flora wrote this just for us. So I'm excited to talk to you about it in the book club

01:24:14.240 all month. And until next time, everybody keep your pants on and your tits out. 0.99

01:24:20.660 Vulgar History is hosted, written, and researched by Anne Foster and edited by Christina Lumagi. 0.98

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Vulgar History - March 06, 2024

Author Interview： Flora Carr (The Tower)

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