Vulgar History - Elizabeth Barton and the Downfall of Anne Boleyn

00:00:00.600 To the person in a long-term relationship with chicken and rice,

00:00:04.300 hi, your Safeway PA announcer here.

00:00:06.860 It might be time to see other dishes.

00:00:08.920 Spice up your routine with our new Chili Crisp creations,

00:00:11.820 including flatbreads, crispy chicken strips, wraps, and more.

00:00:15.220 Crispy meets spicy at your local Safeway.

00:00:17.960 Limited time only. Selection may vary by store.

00:00:30.000 Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast.

00:00:37.880 My name is Anne Foster. I'm a historian and an author, and I've been into the Tudor era since

00:00:43.360 I was a small child. This season on the podcast, we're talking about the notorious Tudor era,

00:00:48.240 what the royal family was up to, and also what other people were doing at that time,

00:00:52.280 including people in other countries. And today our story is about Elizabeth Barton,

00:00:58.380 who started off being sort of a normal person without any anything to do with the royal family

00:01:03.800 and then her life became intricately connected with henry the eighth and anne boleyn and the

00:01:09.760 new book notorious anne boleyn and the great tudor hoax is kind of a dual biography of elizabeth

00:01:15.420 barton and anne boleyn and kind of how their lives are entwined with each other and i have

00:01:20.260 the author of notorious on the podcast with me today hayley nolan is a historian tedx speaker

00:01:27.640 associate of King's College London and is currently at the University of Oxford undertaking

00:01:31.680 her second master's degree and she joined me for conversation about kind of half of her book because

00:01:38.600 her book again it's about Anne Boleyn it's about Elizabeth Barton we're focusing on Elizabeth

00:01:42.960 Barton because this is a it's a really interesting way to look at a story that many of us already

00:01:49.280 know very well and kind of how Elizabeth Barton's mysticism how her activity is sort of affected

00:01:57.280 all of history. So please enjoy this chat between myself and author Hayley Nolan.

00:02:06.400 So I'm joined today by Hayley Nolan, author of the new book Notorious Anne Boleyn and the Great

00:02:11.960 Tudor Hoax. Welcome, Hayley. Hello, thank you for having me. And Hepburn, who was already,

00:02:18.380 it's Hepburn, wasn't it? Yeah, Hepburn is here. My cat is, she's very, she's really into this

00:02:23.460 story I don't think there's any cats in it but you know no I'm sure they're always around they

00:02:28.520 just didn't write about them in Tudor times because they're just there catching mice you

00:02:31.980 just don't think they're just getting on with the job you know curling up in laps calming them

00:02:36.520 through all the trauma that they had to go through can we talk about we're gonna get into a lot of

00:02:41.480 trauma actually actually to begin with we're gonna talk about Elizabeth Barton but first and the way

00:02:47.300 that you start your book is starting to describe as kind of the misery of life in Tudor times and

00:02:53.220 how people sort of clung to any semblance of hope or religion. Can you just explain sort of the

00:02:59.520 context in which this hoax emerged? Yes, I just think it's really important that people understand

00:03:05.140 how did it come to be that not just the villagers believed that this girl was a prophet, but the

00:03:13.200 King of England and the Pope and Cardinal Wolsey. And you have to think that it was such an

00:03:19.520 incredibly religious time and life on earth was fleeting you know lifespans were cut short by 1.00

00:03:28.260 illnesses and terrible like disastrous characterize all sorts you name it it was quite short so they

00:03:36.020 focused on everlasting salvation in the afterlife and what did they have to sort of guide them

00:03:42.960 through this brief journey here on earth were the wondrous teachings of the bible so they were

00:03:49.660 looking out for any sign from god whether that was interpreting a dream or increment weather you

00:03:56.760 know a rainbow or a bolt of lightning or you know a prophet's sign from god or vision from the angels

00:04:05.260 they sort of they really clung to the preachers who appear to have a closer connection to god

00:04:11.520 than them. And if you think about it, there's all pilgrimage and holy relics were of great

00:04:17.040 importance because they wanted to be able to erase any sins here on earth so that they would

00:04:22.260 have a shorter stint in purgatory before they went on to heaven, hopefully, fingers crossed.

00:04:27.260 So yeah, it is hard for us to sort of grasp how difficult life was and why they clung to people

00:04:35.260 like Elizabeth Barton, who we're about to be talking about. Well, and she also reminds me,

00:04:40.120 And I think you mentioned a few times in your book, like it was probably about 100 years before Joan of Arc came on the scene.

00:04:45.940 So people were already primed and ready to believe that like a young woman could have visions.

00:04:51.020 Oh, yes. And, you know, this is sort of really the only way in which women who had no status were actually able to be elevated, I suppose, and have any kind of status in their own way.

00:05:05.580 and the fact that she was this she was a housemaid she did become a nun but she started out

00:05:11.300 as a humble housemaid and I think it was that sort of humility that gave her I don't know it's

00:05:18.900 really hard to explain to be honest um as to how like the working mind of a Tudor we have to get

00:05:25.120 into the mind of a Tudor and I suppose the fact that she wasn't well she did eventually become

00:05:30.040 quite grasping or did she we will debate it um but because I suppose she wanted for nothing she

00:05:36.340 was just one of those or rather one of them one of the people who could be trusted I think that kind

00:05:44.620 of lent to the whole situation so let's let's let's begin at the beginning Elizabeth Barton

00:05:52.040 she's uh about 19 years old probably when this all sort of kicks off and she's a housemaid

00:05:58.140 in the house of somebody who's involved in with the archbishop. It's sort of a high up house,

00:06:05.740 right? So you think, well, if she was this lowly housemaid, how did she get in front of the King

00:06:10.860 of England? And it's because of this connection. So she was a housemaid to Thomas Cobb, and he was

00:06:17.440 a land agent to the Archbishop of Canterbury. So he not only dealt with his own farm, but other

00:06:23.560 houses in Aldington, the Manor of Aldington. And so, yes, it was that connection. So when

00:06:30.920 she started to have this, it wasn't just visions at first, she had this debilitating illness.

00:06:36.820 They didn't know what it was. She was struck down with sort of convulsions and what was described

00:06:41.600 as a trance-like immobility. And it was during this immobility, this trance, that suddenly,

00:06:48.460 apparently, a voice was heard speaking from deep within her belly. And if it spoke anything of

00:06:53.400 the joys of heaven it spoke so sweetly but when it spoke of hell apparently it spoke terribly and

00:06:59.960 put everyone in a great fear uh so it was at that point they brought in the local parson of

00:07:05.440 Aldington to assess her um and it was him who was the first to sort of essentially put words in her

00:07:12.960 mouth because he said well while you were having one of these trances you actually spoke many high

00:07:18.940 and notable matters of the seven deadly sins and the 10 commandments. She clearly was a little bit

00:07:26.340 skeptical at this because, well, the indication that there was some pushback to just accepting

00:07:31.940 this was that he said, you would be greatly blamed if you did not share the wondrous works

00:07:36.760 that have been shown in you through God. So that to me indicates that she sort of wasn't too sure.

00:07:44.020 She didn't sort of jump on board straight away and say, hey, yeah, I'm a visionary.

00:07:46.900 there's so many can we can I just say one thing because the first as I recall from your book

00:07:51.100 this all like gets really the momentum starts going really quickly but the first sort of

00:07:56.520 quote-unquote prophecy that she does is she's sick and she's put in a room with a baby from

00:08:01.200 the household who's also sick and she says something like oh I think that baby's gonna die

00:08:05.020 and then the baby dies and that's where people are like she's a prophet where it's like

00:08:10.840 I think she's just kind of observing symptoms.

00:08:13.980 There you go.

00:08:14.600 So she says, I think the baby is about to die.

00:08:17.980 And it's within, they don't really say when, how soon after she says the baby is going to pass away that it sadly does.

00:08:25.680 But it's sort of indicated sort of within the next breath, it does pass away.

00:08:29.780 And if you think about it again, back to the very superstitious times of Tudor England, this could have gone one of two ways.

00:08:36.080 they could have thought oh my god she has just prophesied the death of an infant like she has

00:08:41.540 had a vision or she's possessed by the devil how did she curse his child to die and yes that is why

00:08:49.300 they brought in the parson of Aldington as I say there's many twists and turns here with the story

00:08:54.080 well it really starts off it's just like you know it's just a snowball like it's the smallest thing

00:08:58.600 and then so but because of this they're like oh like she quote-unquote prophesies this clearly

00:09:04.340 ill infant was going to die and then that's where he starts coming in being like oh and she said

00:09:09.660 this and when you're talking about um you know she spoke with a voice deep within her belly it's

00:09:13.800 like well she was sick so was this not just maybe a scratchy throat and her voice sounded kind of

00:09:19.560 weird like yeah there's so many different ways you can interpret it very logically but as we say

00:09:26.240 they're going to they were not they were not they didn't go for logic have to be honest

00:09:30.200 they went straight to prophecy and I think because of the time this was a time when

00:09:35.560 the church was starting to come under scrutiny from like Martin Luther with his 95 theses

00:09:42.720 so I don't think it would have bode well especially it being a house of you know the

00:09:48.600 land agent of the Archbishop of Canterbury for this to have been a demonic situation so I think

00:09:54.760 the Parson of Ardington sort of jumped on the idea of her being a prophet straight away.

00:10:03.220 And she gets this team of kind of men who are sort of her entourage, sort of her PR team.

00:10:10.620 Can you explain sort of who is assigned to this task?

00:10:14.680 Yeah, it wasn't just her who was skeptical at first.

00:10:17.620 The Parson of Ardington went to the Archbishop of Canterbury and he said,

00:10:20.860 okay, hold your horses. I'm going to send my men to assess this woman. And who he sends 1.00

00:10:26.300 essentially becomes, I've positioned them as her celebrity manager and her publicist. Oh,

00:10:32.880 the publicist comes in slightly later. But just for you to understand the roles they played.

00:10:37.640 So this was Edward Bocking. He was a monk at Christchurch in Canterbury. And he also said

00:10:45.220 that while she was having her visions that Elizabeth Barton at the time, just a maid,

00:10:51.520 I was going to refer to her as the nun, but not just yet. He said, you've actually just had a

00:10:56.240 vision saying that I should become your holy, your spiritual father. Again, like a sort of

00:11:01.960 manager. And that's not enough for guidance. But while he's there, she says, okay, I've had a

00:11:07.540 vision. I need to go to the local church. Our lady is going to cure me and everyone should come and

00:11:13.540 watch. So 2,000 people essentially, apparently, pack into this church to watch her have this 0.94

00:11:19.980 vision where she falls to the floor. It's very theatrical, as they tell it. But what's interesting

00:11:24.520 is Our Lady does not cure her. She says, I'm going to delay your cure for a season. 0.99

00:11:31.080 However, don't worry. I think you should profess yourself a nun, which really sold it for the 0.99

00:11:36.500 crowd. If she was demonic, she wouldn't have been advised to go to a nunnery. And so everyone

00:11:41.540 hail this for a miracle again she hadn't really done much at that point but yeah she went to a

00:11:49.380 nunnery and she this is how she becomes a nun but I think it's really interesting that she

00:11:54.380 initially you know the the prophecies and the visions that she's having are just like I think

00:11:59.280 I should have a better life and I think I should get these opportunities the holy mother says this

00:12:05.460 and everyone's like okay so she goes from being a housemate to being a nun which is I would think

00:12:10.540 a much more comfortable existence, certainly.

00:12:13.940 There was still actually a surprising amount

00:12:16.240 of sort of housework, so to speak,

00:12:18.380 that needed to be doing it.

00:12:19.300 It was a very humble life.

00:12:20.840 And you know, you have to take the vow of chastity

00:12:22.500 and the vow of poverty.

00:12:24.020 But yes, I think it was a less demanding

00:12:27.860 and more godly, more superior existence.

00:12:32.920 And actually while she was there,

00:12:34.280 that was when her miracles started to really ramp up. 0.99

00:12:38.320 so she apparently lit candles without fire helped women who came to the the nunnery produced breast

00:12:44.620 milk where they'd run dry and the most fantastical one of all she brought a man back from the dead

00:12:50.500 let's not brush over that one how dead was he is my question yeah yeah was he just exactly it was

00:13:00.040 who's to say but these are things that if you're a superstitious person and you're already if

00:13:05.280 people already believe in her then the things that she does just confirms what they already

00:13:09.440 think sort of situation you know they weren't medical experts in the tudor era he could have

00:13:15.200 had a very weak pulse it could have been very something like that that could be easily interpreted

00:13:19.140 as dead and then being brought back to life by her prayer um yeah so all these miracles then got

00:13:25.100 turned into best-selling pamphlets and books and the celebrity began to grow okay i just want to

00:13:31.700 pause for a second on i'm doing this whole tutor series and i'm always when things get become

00:13:38.080 pamphlets it's always kind of like okay this is like going viral this is like when you're when

00:13:43.420 you've made a pamphlet when there's a pamphlet about this situation you know it's like that's

00:13:47.700 the hot gossip everybody's excited about so she's making it into the pamphlets like you know she's

00:13:52.280 she has she's like some page of the newspapers we have like tabloid press over here do you have

00:13:57.940 this sort of tabloid culture in the U.S. as much?

00:14:00.280 No, it's not quite as strong here,

00:14:02.820 but I'm thinking it's more like

00:14:03.940 she's a trending topic on social media.

00:14:06.840 You know, everyone's talking about her on TikTok.

00:14:08.820 Yeah, everybody's just like,

00:14:10.080 there's this nun and she's doing these miracles.

00:14:12.780 And at this point still too.

00:14:14.020 So she's, we're about to get to

00:14:16.380 how she gets in front of the king.

00:14:18.340 But at this point,

00:14:19.820 she's not involved politically in what's going on.

00:14:22.740 But then some people see,

00:14:24.500 because you mentioned that there's the reformation.

00:14:27.940 It's happening in some other European countries where like people are breaking off, like the new like Protestant religions are taking off.

00:14:36.400 And in England, there's that's a threat that people are worried about.

00:14:40.380 And but she's coming from a Catholic point of view.

00:14:42.500 So people who want to like keep Catholicism strong are like, oh, she's going to she'll be on our side.

00:14:47.900 She will we can use her to sort of as a figurehead for the Catholic cause.

00:14:53.220 That's exactly what happened.

00:14:54.880 Yeah, absolutely. Because as much as people did want reform, because, you know, there are a few bad eggs in the apple cart.

00:15:03.240 No, I've mixed up my analogies. That's the rotten apple in the apple cart.

00:15:06.900 Well, there's bad eggs in the apple cart. That's pretty bad, too.

00:15:09.920 Praise, guys. It's going to cash on.

00:15:12.320 But yeah, they wanted to flush out the bad apples or rotten eggs.

00:15:16.700 But also there was a lot of fear with this change.

00:15:20.240 so yes people were saying well I don't want to abandon all rituals of Catholicism so when you

00:15:26.700 have someone like this nun suddenly say don't worry it's actually it's sinful to be going over

00:15:32.860 to the other side then they clung to her I think that also helped her celebrity build and also to

00:15:38.040 have it absolutely helped her get the sort of major power players as fans as I say in the Pope

00:15:44.500 and Cardinal Wolsey.

00:15:46.140 And at this point, also,

00:15:47.660 the Archbishop of Canterbury was on board.

00:15:50.080 So at what point is she brought

00:15:52.960 before the king for the first time?

00:15:55.460 So it's after she's gone to the nunnery.

00:15:59.140 Funnily enough, her new spiritual father,

00:16:01.640 her manager, says,

00:16:02.760 I don't suppose you've had any visions

00:16:04.860 or God said anything about the king's

00:16:07.280 desire to divorce Catherine of Aragon

00:16:09.380 and marry this Anne Boleyn.

00:16:11.240 And she said, oh, one second,

00:16:12.800 let me go and have a vision

00:16:14.560 I'll come back to you on that

00:16:15.820 I love this part of her story

00:16:17.080 actually

00:16:17.460 so just the fact that they're like

00:16:18.860 oh could you just like

00:16:19.820 next to me have a vision

00:16:20.620 can you bring this up

00:16:21.380 she's like got it

00:16:22.120 yeah I think I have one scheduled

00:16:23.400 for later this afternoon

00:16:24.440 like it's very

00:16:25.380 it's not random

00:16:26.880 they're just kind of

00:16:28.240 I did not know that's how it worked

00:16:29.900 it was a revelation in itself to me

00:16:32.220 I know that kind of made me chuckle

00:16:33.920 when I read that

00:16:35.020 but yeah

00:16:36.760 so that's pretty much what happened

00:16:38.520 and when she came back

00:16:39.360 obviously she started prophesying

00:16:40.780 from that point

00:16:41.800 against the king's marriage.

00:16:44.840 And actually, later on when she does have her naysayers,

00:16:49.720 this is one of the points they pick up on,

00:16:51.260 that she didn't start prophesying against the king

00:16:53.440 until she started being guided to by her manager.

00:16:58.300 So at first, they tried to get through to Henry VIII

00:17:00.900 via Thomas More, who was one of his advisors.

00:17:05.120 He very quickly just dismissed it, mocked it a little,

00:17:08.640 said, you know, I found nothing notable

00:17:09.960 apart from the fact that she now and again would speak in rhyme, which, you know, is quite a skill,

00:17:14.800 but still he wasn't impressed. Then with a letter from the Archbishop of Canterbury,

00:17:20.840 they went to the Tudor court, and we don't particularly know who she went with.

00:17:26.340 Got a fly attacking me, sorry. Yeah, so she went to the Tudor court and she was, somehow,

00:17:34.680 she got in front of Cardinal Wolsey with this letter from the Archbishop, managed to put the

00:17:39.380 fear of God into him because the next thing you know, she has a private audience with the King

00:17:44.060 of England. I'm going to be doing a whole thing about Anne Boleyn in a bit. So Henry VIII is

00:17:52.440 trying to find a Bible-based reason to call his marriage to Catherine of Aragon to say that it

00:18:00.320 was invalid for Bible-based reasons so that he can marry Anne Boleyn. And Anne Boleyn is a believer

00:18:06.820 in the reformed religion so this is for there's lots of reasons here why the existing institution

00:18:13.860 are very against this because they want they don't want him to marry a reformist because that would

00:18:20.240 challenge the catholic church but also um catherine of aragon is this very connected

00:18:25.740 princess um who's connected to the holy roman emperor and all these people so all of the

00:18:32.200 catholic institution are just like please don't do this henry the eighth and they're so they're

00:18:36.140 trying to convince him not to do it for Bible spiritual reasons. He's trying to find sort of

00:18:41.320 biblical precedent to do this. So the fact that she is coming as, this is my interpretation,

00:18:47.320 correct me if I'm wrong. And she's coming, she's coming from a sort of, you know, she's direct from

00:18:52.060 God effectively. She's like, God says, don't do this. So they're like, okay, maybe this will

00:18:55.800 persuade Henry to stop. Right. It's kind of, they're trying to persuade him. This is why,

00:19:00.860 this is how desperate they are to stop him from doing this, that they're like, well, let's just

00:19:04.580 bring this nun who has visions and maybe that'll scare him into stopping. That was my interpretation.

00:19:11.720 I 100% agree. I think they thought, well, if he's going to be quoting Leviticus, then we're going to

00:19:17.260 quote the angels in heaven via this girl. She was a very convenient tool to be able to use.

00:19:24.020 And if they needed, discard later on. But yes, absolutely. The fact that she was on their side,

00:19:30.640 prophesizing what they needed her to say and she seemed to be very willing to go along with

00:19:36.380 the words they were putting in her mouth um yeah as far as they were concerned she was

00:19:42.540 the most perfect sort of figurehead for their task to stop him to dissuade him and so she actually

00:19:49.780 this was the whole story i was just like why have i never heard about this but the fact that she

00:19:55.360 actually got an audience with henry the eighth it's it's not just some sort of like a fringe

00:20:01.100 thing that's happening up in kent it's like she's this is as serious as it could be she's actually

00:20:07.220 she's actually seeing him in person it's actually incredible that she did and it's it just speaks

00:20:14.240 to the sort of level of desperation that wolsey had and people say you know was wolsey actually

00:20:19.560 against the marriage. I think this absolutely proves that he was. He was using her. And she

00:20:26.200 could say that. And she was pretty damning. She was threatening. By the end of it, her threats

00:20:32.460 did get more and more outlandish. She said that if he divorced Catherine of Aragon, married Anne

00:20:38.340 Boleyn, he would lose the crown within a month. She said that she had seen his seat in hell.

00:20:46.640 She was bold.

00:20:48.260 So Wolsey would never dare to reproach the king and say things like that.

00:20:53.900 So clearly he had tried.

00:20:55.900 No one could dissuade him.

00:20:57.480 And he was this bold girl.

00:21:00.460 I'm so emboldened.

00:21:02.220 Where did she get the guts to do it?

00:21:04.900 I suppose this is where having God on your side or really believing that you did have God on your side goes a long way.

00:21:11.960 Well, and this is also just in terms of, you know, the Tudor history that I've been looking at

00:21:16.140 recently, just a few generations before Henry VI, there was a whole thing where Eleanor Cobham was

00:21:22.760 put to death because she said she thought the king might die. Like it's treason to just say,

00:21:29.640 I think the king might die one day. Like people in past generations have been put to death. So

00:21:35.000 the fact that she's telling the king himself, like you are going to go to hell.

00:21:38.760 It's incredible that they sort of, I think they must have thought, if we just ignore her, she'll go away.

00:21:45.860 Because how was it allowed to trundle on as long as it did?

00:21:50.080 I think he did just try to dismiss her because it did go on for the full seven years.

00:21:54.540 The seven-year delay was down to her.

00:21:56.740 And when it came down to it at the end, they solely blamed her.

00:22:00.460 Henry VIII said to, who was a French ambassador, that it was because of the lies and the sedition this nun was whipping up that Catherine, his ex-wife at that point, and his daughter, Princess Mary, were seduced.

00:22:14.720 So they were sort of induced to rebellion because of her.

00:22:18.440 They said that the Pope was seduced by the diabolic lies of this nun and Cardinal Wolsey, too, and that she did marvelously stop the king's marriage to Anne Boleyn for the space of seven years.

00:22:30.460 with her idle words, they all blame her solely.

00:22:34.740 This hoax, when I say blame her,

00:22:36.660 we're going to talk about who else

00:22:38.020 was falling the strings around it.

00:22:40.060 But yeah, they actually believed it was her at that point.

00:22:44.240 And because she's so powerless, right? 0.53

00:22:45.520 She was a housemaid turned nun. 0.99

00:22:47.500 There's these kind of more power, 1.00

00:22:48.880 obviously these much more powerful than her men

00:22:51.060 are sort of being like,

00:22:52.040 oh, could you have a vision about this?

00:22:53.460 And it'd be great if this is the point of view

00:22:55.840 that the vision gives you.

00:22:57.060 Like it's this whole sort of team.

00:22:59.000 So she's, she comes to me at Henry VIII and she says, if you divorce Catherine Aragon and marry Anne Boleyn, you will go to hell, basically. And then she's just able to go back home. Her reputation is, I would imagine, the pamphlets are going to heat up. It's like she's been in front of the king. Like this is, she's becoming more and more famous.

00:23:16.760 Yeah, this now just elevates her status that the king wanted to see her.

00:23:20.880 And so she started receiving money for prayers, which I sort of think, okay, was it the money she was interested in?

00:23:29.080 I was just going to say, because the whole thing about a hoax always comes down to money.

00:23:32.760 And I was literally just going to say, where does money come into this?

00:23:36.320 But she's getting money for prayers.

00:23:38.400 Well, she was getting money for prayers and for curing people.

00:23:41.800 But then there's letters saying, but she didn't keep the money I sent last time.

00:23:45.240 she donated most of it to charity. So I thought, okay, maybe it's not the money, then maybe it's

00:23:51.000 the adulation. Because people were making money. They were, as I say, selling the books, the

00:23:56.700 pamphlets. There were holy relics made of, at one point, she burned her veil, which I am jumping

00:24:03.260 ahead, but I think she wanted to sort of quit the con as it sort of got a lot more dangerous.

00:24:08.100 She started to realize it. But because they carried on after that, her manager turned the

00:24:12.640 burn veil into a holy relic which of course people paid to have access to see um they made a shrine

00:24:19.280 to her in her local church where well the virgin mary didn't or our lady rather didn't actually

00:24:25.780 cure her but told her to become a nun so that was the scene so people people are certainly making

00:24:32.820 money off of this situation whether she is or not i just wanted to say something that keeps

00:24:37.680 bumming up in my mind is this reminds me of like i don't know how familiar but like with the salem

00:24:42.060 witch trials where you've got young girls who are suddenly being listened to for the first time

00:24:47.040 and then it just all men around them make it all get kind of a bit more out of control and then the

00:24:53.600 visions start getting a bit more extreme like it just seems and that's a hundred years later but

00:24:58.240 it's a similar sort of thing to me where it's just like a girl is being listened to in a world that

00:25:02.760 doesn't listen to girls and she's going to do whatever she needs to to keep getting listened to

00:25:09.080 And also, at this point, so by 1529,

00:25:14.120 Cardinal Wolsey had died as she'd threatened,

00:25:17.840 and the Archbishop of Canterbury also ended up dying.

00:25:21.820 So I think that at that point she started to think,

00:25:25.240 hang on a second, they're all saying I'm having these visions

00:25:28.300 and speaking from my belly and saying notable words. 0.97

00:25:32.180 Maybe it's all true. 0.64

00:25:33.920 I do think that they started to come true, these threats.

00:25:38.120 of us, these visions. So I think that, again, goes a long way to sort of instilling this sense

00:25:44.360 of self-belief in who you are, but also the manipulation of her managers. So Edward Bocking,

00:25:54.220 the spiritual father, he would also, he would tell her about other prophets who would be saying

00:25:59.780 certain things and the visions they've been having recently. People say this was to inspire her,

00:26:04.460 but also when she kind of the the prophecies went dry for a short spell and he then says well how

00:26:12.160 are you living now virtuously i think god might have taken back his good grace as soon as you've

00:26:17.220 not had any uh revelations lately and that to me just smacks of coercion because when we have got

00:26:25.600 everyone's um the sort of testimony at the end when everyone starts getting interrogated there

00:26:30.280 about three separate accounts that use the same wording that she did all of this, to please him,

00:26:35.920 to satisfy the minds of those around her. And I just think that's very telling. And also the fact

00:26:42.580 that when he says, how are you living now, virtuously, that indicates him sort of manipulating

00:26:49.100 her in a really insidious way, because we have a draft of a book that he started to pen. He cut out

00:26:54.740 the middleman. He wanted to rake in the coin himself. He's going to write the biography

00:26:58.080 himself. However, there are many inconsistencies which tell me it wasn't written with her

00:27:04.800 knowledge or consent or input. And not surprising because he spoke about that she'd admitted she

00:27:11.360 was struggling with what they called sexual incontinency, which means sexual immorality.

00:27:16.780 She was having some very saucy visions, some sexual fantasies, essentially. There's no other

00:27:23.440 way to put it um and she confided this in her spiritual father we can debate was she did she

00:27:32.280 have a sort of school girlish crush was she trying to flirt with him was she being perfectly honest

00:27:38.220 and just trying you know she'd taken the vow of chastity was she trying to get his help

00:27:42.380 was he then manipulating that aware that maybe there was a crush or aware that she was

00:27:48.720 worried about this and that's why he started to taunt her how are you living virtuously knowing

00:27:54.900 that she'd confided this like deeply personal i just think that she was struggling with it's just

00:28:01.020 so coercive and there's the moment in where she um claims that she has she was visited by

00:28:10.400 a vision of the devil and then she's covered in what she what does she call the devil's spit or

00:28:16.280 Yeah, so the devil asks her to marry him. 0.84

00:28:20.060 She says no, and it spits in her face.

00:28:23.120 But she doesn't just stop there.

00:28:24.600 She goes to Edward Bocking,

00:28:26.840 and she apparently has smeared of the white officer spit from her, 0.98

00:28:30.920 which was black, and apparently stank of human feces. 0.98

00:28:35.560 Now, if you're going to stick that under the nose of a man you fancy, 0.99

00:28:39.040 I just don't think that's a seduction technique. 0.99

00:28:41.800 That, to me, is her trying to revolt him,

00:28:44.320 trying to scare him off to get him to leave her alone yeah exactly um so it's all these little

00:28:51.200 actions that just the story starts to form and you think okay i understand what's happening here

00:28:58.120 because also when he did say you know how you're living god must have taken back his love

00:29:02.960 the next part of the story the very next sign is about uh she says oh i've not just had a vision

00:29:09.280 from Mary Magdalene.

00:29:10.820 She has appeared to me,

00:29:12.160 written me a letter,

00:29:12.960 and here it is.

00:29:14.100 She has a handwritten letter

00:29:15.000 from Mary Magdalene in heaven,

00:29:17.720 which, of course,

00:29:18.680 was then rewritten

00:29:19.920 and turned into a holy relic,

00:29:22.180 which then to pay and have access.

00:29:23.940 So, oh,

00:29:25.640 the con continues.

00:29:29.600 It gets,

00:29:30.840 it's just,

00:29:31.920 it has so much in common with,

00:29:34.500 I mean, things you see today,

00:29:36.560 people who claim to know exactly,

00:29:39.020 you know this is the day the world is going to end or whatever so if you give me money then

00:29:42.660 like it's it's just a classic sort of hoax situation and what we don't know and what we

00:29:50.200 can't know is how much did she believe in what was happening but as this is going henry the eighth

00:29:55.980 is getting more and more determined to marry anne boleyn but she said if he marries her he will die

00:30:01.580 shortly afterwards and this is so there's kind of a ticking clock on this now yeah so the clock

00:30:08.440 does start to tick down, especially when unbeknownst to the nun, Henry's just like, to hell

00:30:13.060 with it, literally. And he goes ahead and marries Anne Boleyn. So when she finds out that they've

00:30:19.760 been married, her manager, and they think, okay, maybe we can salvage this. Perhaps we've just

00:30:26.940 misinterpreted your vision. Maybe he just won't be king in the eyes of God. And so then the next

00:30:34.840 thing you know, the Pope is threatening excommunication. And suddenly you think,

00:30:38.860 well, hang on a second. Yeah, if he gets excommunicated, he will not be king in the

00:30:43.640 eyes of God. So again, the visions do seem to be sort of coming true. But what's the most

00:30:49.620 interesting part about that is that when the Pope does send the threat of excommunication,

00:30:53.860 he sends it to Elizabeth Barton fast. That's crazy. When I got to that part,

00:30:59.860 I'm just like, what? Like she's, yeah, she's such an integral part of this whole situation that, yeah, she's getting communications from the Pope.

00:31:08.580 Yeah, I mean, hoax or not, the fact that she was seen as so important to be able to be included in international diplomatic relations is incredible.

00:31:21.720 Yeah, that actually blew my mind too.

00:31:25.240 But it was Cranmer who was Archbishop Cranmer at this point, so Anne Boleyn had appointed her first reformist Archbishop.

00:31:34.680 But yeah, there was no such luck for him.

00:31:36.800 And he was just cut off and excommunicated at that point.

00:31:39.840 So they couldn't help him.

00:31:41.440 And now for a quick advertising break.

00:31:44.660 To the person whose after-school schedule now requires its own calendar.

00:31:49.220 Hi, your Safeway PA announcer here.

00:31:51.580 Make dinner the easy part with our freshly made soups, salads or hearty flatbreads.

00:31:55.800 Just pick up your favorites at your local Safeway and pretend you had a plan all along.

00:32:00.560 Selection may vary by store.

00:32:04.940 Welcome to the Realms of Peril and Glory.

00:32:10.620 Explore the mechanically magical vistas of Vale,

00:32:14.380 the paranormal mysteries of liminal London,

00:32:18.660 and the cyberpunk chaos of Cyborg.

00:32:23.960 Be awed by our incredible guests from familiar shows like Oxventure and No Rolls Barred.

00:32:30.760 Search Realms of Peril and Glory to find out more

00:32:34.920 You've got your favorite blanket, a freshly poured drink, and a cold case burning a hole in your streaming queue

00:32:43.180 You're not just watching true crime, you're running the investigation from the comfort of your couch

00:32:48.680 Welcome to Murder, She Watched

00:32:51.060 the podcast where we recap, dissect, and slightly overanalyze some of the best and craziest

00:32:57.620 true crime documentaries on our favorite streamers. Did the spouse do it? Why is the

00:33:04.380 shady neighbor wearing leather gloves in July? Why did this guy agree to be interviewed in this

00:33:09.480 documentary? We ask the tough questions that you're often just screaming at your TV.

00:33:15.100 So every week we break down the twists, red herrings, and absurd documentaries

00:33:19.400 that have kept you up all night. It's high drama, cozy vibes, and absolute couch detective energy.

00:33:26.880 Grab your throw blanket and hit subscribe. Search Murder She Watched wherever you listen

00:33:31.720 to podcasts, and let's solve this thing together. Welcome to Mick Unplugged, the number one podcast

00:33:39.180 for self-improvement and modern leadership. I'm Mick Hunt, your host, and I'm here to challenge

00:33:44.440 your why, and fuel your because.

00:33:48.560 This is where leaders, entrepreneurs, and go-getters come to level up.

00:33:52.560 Each week, I bring you unfiltered conversations, game-changing strategies, and the kind of motivation

00:33:58.440 that transforms lives and legacies.

00:34:01.000 I've learned from legends like Les Brown, Damon John, and Robert Irvine.

00:34:05.480 And now, I'm bringing their lessons, along with mine, straight to you.

00:34:10.680 modern leadership tips to creating unstoppable momentum, this is the podcast that redefines

00:34:16.840 what's possible. Hit play, subscribe, and join the millions who've made Mick Unplugged their go-to

00:34:23.540 source for growth and greatness, because your next breakthrough is just one episode away.

00:34:30.060 This is Mick Unplugged, the voice and face of modern leadership entrepreneur

00:34:34.460 and self-improvement. Let's get started.

00:34:40.680 and we're back but this is where she starts sort of like she and the team are kind of like twisting

00:34:51.580 and turning do you it's there's various sort of groups who are like this is the day that the world

00:34:57.200 is going to end and when that day comes and goes they're like oh i guess everyone just prayed so

00:35:01.240 well it's not gonna it's gonna be this day instead so she just they keep kind of just okay well if he

00:35:06.640 marries Anne Boleyn. He won't be the king in the eyes of God. And so they just keep kind of like

00:35:11.080 twisting and turning it to make it seem like what they have said is actually true. But Henry is

00:35:15.700 getting, he met with her and let her go, but he's getting more determined to quiet her.

00:35:22.760 Well, you see, shortly before it all sort of goes to pot, so to speak, I think it's,

00:35:28.620 and this is what actually intrigued me and made me realize, hang on, there's a story here,

00:35:32.420 is that I found a piece of evidence that said Anne Boleyn called her in.

00:35:37.240 So she had a second meeting with the king

00:35:38.840 and then she went and had a private meeting with Anne Boleyn

00:35:42.000 who offered her a place in her household

00:35:45.080 and also a place as prioress at her own nunnery.

00:35:49.060 But that to me speaks volumes as to who Anne Boleyn believed

00:35:54.140 was the ringleader.

00:36:00.240 She's so excited, can't get a matter. 1.00

00:36:02.420 the ringleader in this whole escapade. 1.00

00:36:06.260 And clearly she saw that the girl was being manipulated.

00:36:10.700 Of course, I'm not going to say she was an absolute saint. 0.93

00:36:12.900 She did want to shut her up,

00:36:14.360 but I think she could see where this was going.

00:36:16.560 She'd pushed too far. 0.95

00:36:17.780 She knew the girl was the one who was going to take the fall.

00:36:20.620 Probably not the men around her,

00:36:22.220 certainly not the Pope or,

00:36:24.180 well, obviously Cardinal Wolsey had gone by that point.

00:36:26.420 But I think she wanted to try and rescue the girl

00:36:29.880 and also save them both at that point. 0.58

00:36:32.320 And just quiet, like, end the whole thing.

00:36:34.700 So there's an alternate, you know, situation where Elizabeth Byrne said yes

00:36:39.400 and went off and became a prioress of her own abbey and just lived a quiet life.

00:36:42.820 But that was not, that is not what happened.

00:36:45.160 She did not accept this offer.

00:36:46.720 No, actually, do you know what I am?

00:36:48.460 The way they tell these stories are sort of like, they don't give you exact dates.

00:36:54.320 And because it's all very retrospective, when everyone was hauled in before the authorities,

00:36:58.300 they sort of, their testimonies just read like a story.

00:37:00.900 so I too I'm jumping ahead here that was actually before they married because or at least before the

00:37:06.940 non-music of marriage because she said no and I believe she turned her down because she thought

00:37:11.980 no she's not going to succeed okay she's not going to become queen yeah yeah she's not going to be

00:37:15.940 the queen so I think she thought she was in a position of power at that point so yeah so she

00:37:22.340 said no and then it trembled on and yes she was eventually first interrogated I think they did

00:37:29.900 try to scare her that didn't work that's when she said um okay for a second time I'm going to go

00:37:36.180 away and have another prophecy and find out what God really thinks about your marriage um but in

00:37:41.720 the meantime that's when they were circulating the prophecy that she'd seen Henry VIII seat in hell

00:37:47.880 which I think really secured it by it's like she's not going to stop at which point she was arrested

00:37:53.260 properly and actually confessed she actually yeah do we know in the sense that so she was arrested

00:38:01.320 and we don't necessarily know exactly what happened but in your opinion which did she

00:38:06.680 confess straight away or was there torture and stuff implemented that got her to confess

00:38:11.580 i i mean gosh you never know you honestly just don't know and i really wouldn't put it past them

00:38:17.340 a bit of heavy-handedness but i think because at this point she had attempted to sort of burn the

00:38:22.600 veil and she knew they were closing in on her. I think she was ready to give up the con. I think

00:38:28.040 she was ready to be martyred. She still believed, but yeah, I think she was ready to be put to death 0.97

00:38:35.480 and surely this would have put her to death. However, they couldn't martyr her for that

00:38:41.180 reason that she had so many fans. So what they did, which is very similar to what happens today,

00:38:46.980 is they de-platformed her first.

00:38:49.600 So they sent her on what I call the tour of shame.

00:38:52.800 And it was her and all her adarements.

00:38:54.720 So it was all the men as well,

00:38:56.700 the manager, the publicist

00:38:57.920 who was spreading all her lies around the country.

00:39:00.140 And they went through several cities in England.

00:39:03.660 I was going to say the UK.

00:39:05.020 Too modern.

00:39:05.780 Go back a few centuries.

00:39:06.720 England, England.

00:39:07.400 So cities that she had kind of been in

00:39:10.400 where a lot of her fan base was

00:39:11.880 because people had seen her.

00:39:12.700 So she just, they went back to these cities

00:39:14.640 to just kind of be like, I was lying.

00:39:16.980 just to publicly be shamed. 0.99

00:39:19.520 Shamed her and to have the fans actually see her stood there 1.00

00:39:24.420 and have her story just exposed, essentially.

00:39:28.300 And yes, she went back to Aldington.

00:39:30.360 The crowd, I can imagine, was very hostile there.

00:39:33.380 And it was effective.

00:39:35.240 It worked.

00:39:35.920 She was hated.

00:39:37.260 And I think it was at that point she was thrown back

00:39:38.980 into the Tower of London.

00:39:40.540 And she probably panicked because they were still not planning

00:39:44.540 on executing her.

00:39:45.480 She thought, well, I don't have my fans. I have nothing to live for. Probably wouldn't go back to the nunnery. They wouldn't have her back after she'd admitted. What household would want a girl who would try to cull the King of England? So at that point, she said, hang on a second, everyone. I've just had a vision from the angels. And they said, actually, I was meant to tell you it was all a hoax because you're just not ready to hear the truth. You're just not.

00:40:09.940 um which doesn't make sense because if she'd had that vision surely she would have had it before

00:40:15.820 she admitted it was a hoax at the beginning yeah i think it speaks to her sort of

00:40:22.840 just sort of a last gap trying to to save herself and i felt this really interesting that like can

00:40:27.980 we talk just for a second about um just the concept of like a catholic martyr because so

00:40:32.960 many if you look at who become saints um especially like from this sort of medieval

00:40:37.960 and then renaissance period like it's young women young virgins who are put to death for various

00:40:43.800 reasons and there's sort of then afterwards there oh well she was a saint so i could see

00:40:48.120 her maybe wanting to allow herself to be executed because then that then she would be remembered in

00:40:53.880 this way she'd be commemorated she would be like saint cecilia or saint bridget or whoever

00:40:58.400 but it's just so can't even she would have wanted that and but they knew that she would

00:41:03.800 have wanted that and they didn't want her to have because then people would still doubt henry

00:41:07.400 if she became a martyr.

00:41:09.580 So it's, yeah.

00:41:10.960 It was too dangerous to do that.

00:41:12.600 They didn't want to give her the glory.

00:41:14.220 And yes, I think she wanted to sacrifice herself.

00:41:16.140 She was ready, but she must have prepared for it.

00:41:18.600 As we know, the lives are short.

00:41:20.520 And you think about all the monks that lost their lives

00:41:23.500 and went to their deaths

00:41:25.360 when they refused to sign the act of succession afterwards.

00:41:29.640 So yeah, there was great glory in martyrdom,

00:41:33.800 but they just refused to give it her.

00:41:35.960 however at that point when she did dig her heels in and say no no the angel's here um and then she

00:41:43.580 she had a meeting with the brother of her publicist um and she said spread the word tell tell

00:41:50.720 my fans essentially that um actually it was true at that point they said oh she's not going to quit

00:41:55.780 we're just we are going to have to kill her silence her that's how you said that's how you

00:42:00.720 canceled someone in the Tudor era yeah literal cancellation and so yeah she was hung drawn and 0.80

00:42:08.620 headed and so who else was executed along with her because I just want to if we've been doing a lot

00:42:16.100 like jumping back and forth but I know sorry but when she was arrested so too were the men around

00:42:22.620 her and they immediately threw her under the bus and they were like it was her idea it was all her

00:42:26.460 It was not us. So they tried to save themselves by saying it was all her and they were all misled

00:42:31.460 too. But they also, it wasn't just her who took the fall, like several of the men also were

00:42:36.140 executed, right? Yeah, thankfully, you know, justice does prevail, kind of. Yeah, so it was

00:42:42.520 her manager, Edward Bocking, her publicist, Henry Gold, also the parson of Aldington, Richard

00:42:49.600 Master, who started the whole thing by saying, oh, you've just spoken many notable words. So yes,

00:42:55.220 thankfully the the men in the story who manipulated her from the start and used her

00:43:00.780 also fell with her um and had a a rather gory end they got slightly light-headed having to

00:43:07.700 write that in detail but i do feel like in it was important for us to we've become so desensitized

00:43:13.400 to the whole beheaded you know divorce beheaded died um i want people to understand what this

00:43:18.660 really entailed but um it was vile what they had to go through i won't go through it now here

00:43:24.600 read the book um but so she was they really made it so that when she was executed when she was put

00:43:34.660 to death the her fans there weren't very many of them left so she wouldn't have been remembered

00:43:39.860 fondly uh in the what did you find about people afterwards were people writing about her just

00:43:46.400 being like oh she was a liar like what were people saying towards the end well um what was

00:43:50.980 actually interesting is that many years later what so she was disgraced and essentially forgotten

00:43:56.940 you know dismissed as as the crackpot that many of us actually dismiss her as at the moment but

00:44:02.240 yeah when princess mary became queen mary many years later it was nicholas sander i believe

00:44:09.180 who then sort of revived the holy nun of kent and said see she was telling the truth all along she

00:44:15.940 predicted that princess mary would take the throne and here she has she was a prophet

00:44:19.660 and obviously because she was prophesying against Anne Boleyn that worked very well

00:44:24.240 so it's very interesting to see how her image got rehabilitated many years later

00:44:30.060 and in terms of your book that you've published about her which is the first book I've ever

00:44:36.920 encountered about her how did you how did you first find out that she even existed because

00:44:42.800 it's it's just not a narrative that I've come across in other books about Anne Boleyn or other

00:44:47.300 of this era she is mentioned it's always in like the footnotes of the usually the boleyn biographies

00:44:54.320 um and yeah sort of in passing and i have dismissed her just because as we say there's

00:45:00.800 just so there were so many sort of prophets of the time of people prophesying this um but it's

00:45:06.920 when i saw that anna boleyn had tried to save this woman who tried to bring her down i thought okay

00:45:11.340 There's more to this story. So started delving into the archives and her story is pretty much

00:45:17.440 fully formed in various documents. She got the Act of Attainer, which is a court statute or

00:45:24.140 government statute that allows the Tudor court to condemn anyone to death without a trial.

00:45:30.340 I think the next time it was used was for Thomas Cromwell, the King's new advisor.

00:45:37.420 Let's not talk about him. I'm not a huge fan.

00:45:39.600 No, we don't need to get into him.

00:45:41.600 But also, actually, that reminds me, because after she was executed, she was one of the only women whose head was put on London Bridge, right?

00:45:49.140 Like that's like the most notorious criminals have their heads, but there's kind of a warning to people like, don't do this. 0.95

00:45:55.680 And women often weren't.

00:45:57.260 So the fact that her downfall was so extreme.

00:46:00.360 Exactly.

00:46:00.920 The fact that she was immortalized, not the right word.

00:46:04.520 But yeah, given this dishonor, it's very telling as to, they were just trying, at this point, it was damage limitation.

00:46:14.340 So when they had one of these other documents that I was looking at, they had all the nobles in the country and even people who were ambassadors from other countries.

00:46:24.560 And they said, you have to share this story in your own countries and tell the truth.

00:46:29.860 And so news of her false prophecies

00:46:33.700 had spread into Europe.

00:46:35.280 But this one, obviously, with the Pope,

00:46:37.120 it's incredible.

00:46:38.200 So they really just needed, yeah,

00:46:39.780 damage limitation, absolutely, 100%.

00:46:42.160 So stick ahead on Tower Bridge or Tower of London.

00:46:46.320 But yeah, just...

00:46:47.460 Sorry, I'm perspiring here.

00:46:49.060 My brain has stopped working.

00:46:51.420 Not the Tower.

00:46:51.600 Imagine everyone I've spoken to this summer

00:46:54.840 who is in England, I'm just like,

00:46:56.960 imagine if you had to wear all those clothes.

00:46:59.060 Imagine if it was the Tudor era and it was this hot.

00:47:01.120 What would people even do?

00:47:02.400 I don't know.

00:47:02.660 I don't know.

00:47:03.420 Well, I know they had the worst, most brutal winter.

00:47:05.500 So I think it was the other way for them.

00:47:07.900 They used to have the tents freeze over.

00:47:10.180 But yeah, it could be worse.

00:47:11.220 I could be sat in a Tudor gown.

00:47:13.140 I should not complain about the hair. 0.78

00:47:16.720 But Elizabeth Barton in general.

00:47:19.400 So your book, at the time of people listening to this,

00:47:23.080 it's available in the UK and it's coming out in North America soon.

00:47:26.000 So Notorious Anne Boleyn and the Great Tudor Hoax.

00:47:29.060 i am curious i mean because you would have had you've been doing appearances um and i might

00:47:35.180 have been talking to people who have read it uh what have the responses of people been like

00:47:39.920 is it similar to me where it's just like i've never heard of her why have i never heard of

00:47:43.660 her this is incredible people say that they've heard of her in wolf hall i think that's the main

00:47:48.340 um sort of you know reference to her and there's the same reaction of god women being manipulated

00:47:56.540 same old history repeating it's um yeah it's sort of an eye roll but also it's incredible the impact

00:48:05.340 that she had on the reformation and i do think that i don't blame history for overlooking this

00:48:12.540 because i myself overlooked it and it's only when you sort of delve into these sort of micro histories

00:48:18.020 you realize the impact each person had because you think about it the fact that she incited

00:48:25.100 Catherine of Aragon's rebellion was the reason why they couldn't then, when it was time to

00:48:29.860 dispatch of Anne Boleyn, they couldn't just send her off to a nunnery. They didn't want a repeat 0.51

00:48:34.040 of the obstinacy of Catherine. So that's why he decided to kill her, I believe. And so that links 0.98

00:48:42.920 back to the nun and why he wanted to get rid of her in the first place. The thing is, six days 0.57

00:48:49.140 before Anne Boleyn's arrest, Henry VIII was still using their marriage as a political bargaining

00:48:53.300 tool with Europe. And then suddenly, it all changes. And I think it's because another one

00:49:01.400 of the nun's prophecies started to come true, and that she said Henry VIII would lose his crown.

00:49:08.160 And it was right at the point when France and Spain were starting to go to wars. A war was

00:49:13.960 brewing, essentially. They both needed allies. And France was threatening to publish a papal decree

00:49:19.420 that apparently denied Henry VIII his place on the throne.

00:49:24.160 And this was to win brownie points with the Pope.

00:49:27.000 And so suddenly, Henry VIII saw that, yeah, the nun warned,

00:49:31.980 if I marry Anne Boleyn, I will lose my crown.

00:49:34.260 And now it looks like it might happen.

00:49:36.320 And that's when he suddenly just got rid of her.

00:49:38.240 So it's all these extra little nuggets of information.

00:49:40.680 You think, hang on a second.

00:49:42.180 That's lots into the story I already know.

00:49:44.920 And you know the cheaters.

00:49:45.880 There's so many gaps in this story.

00:49:47.420 no but that's the thing exactly exactly like it fills in like just these little gaps I didn't

00:49:52.900 even realize were there in all various different sorts of things even the fact that her involvement

00:49:57.260 like not her personal like her and her team yes was part of why Henry VIII was not able to marry

00:50:04.760 Anne Boleyn for seven years like that's had that team not coalesced around her like maybe it would

00:50:11.220 have been two years you know maybe it would have been a much shorter situation and then things

00:50:14.940 It could have fallen out differently.

00:50:17.020 Yeah, and it would have put less pressure on the marriage

00:50:18.720 when they had the daughter, not the son and heir, 0.92

00:50:21.980 the signals God, good grace. 0.57

00:50:24.600 Maybe they'd have just brushed over it and carried on.

00:50:27.960 But because it had been seven years,

00:50:30.180 they had to prove the nun wrong straight away.

00:50:34.300 Yeah, there's so many factors that come into play.

00:50:36.960 It was so fascinating.

00:50:38.280 I loved writing this book, honestly.

00:50:40.540 Well, and honestly, that's what's fun.

00:50:41.700 Do you know the play Rosencrantz and Guildenstern

00:50:44.780 are dead it's like hamlet but from the point of view of these two minor characters it's anyway so

00:50:50.280 i sometimes say i thought of your book kind of like that where it's like it's the story that you

00:50:53.620 know about amblin henry the eighth but it's but you just tilt the camera lens and it's like but

00:50:58.800 look at this person over here so suddenly you're it's the same events happen but it's just from

00:51:04.060 the point of view of somebody else yeah and that's sort of that impact and that influence

00:51:09.520 and how they've invisibly been affecting the story all along and all the other books but we just

00:51:14.240 didn't know do you know honestly it's been hugely eye-opening for me as a historian too

00:51:19.620 and just reaffirms that there's always a story lurking you think you know anything about the

00:51:25.680 Tudors and Anne Boleyn but no nay sir there's always more and that's I feel like it must be

00:51:31.560 so exciting too as a historian to find a new angle to tell the same story to be the one who

00:51:37.000 gets to share the story yeah yeah I know I loved it because I know we do love the Tudors and people

00:51:41.980 are always saying have you got anything else about the Tudors and I'm like well actually

00:51:44.900 do I so for all the episodes on my podcast where we're giving a biography of a person

00:51:52.560 we give them a score in four different categories and I'm very intrigued to see

00:51:57.900 and after we give her a score I can tell you like who that puts her near on the overall

00:52:01.580 okay we do have a leaderboard um so the first category is scandalousness like how and this

00:52:10.620 in terms of how scandalous was this person seen

00:52:13.220 in her time and age.

00:52:15.820 And I think she...

00:52:17.260 Oh, how was she seen by others, are you saying?

00:52:18.920 Yeah, how was she seen...

00:52:19.720 Like, how scandalous was she in her time?

00:52:21.480 And I think at first she was sort of scandalous...

00:52:24.380 Not even scandalous, but just sort of revered,

00:52:26.380 like, you know, the early pamphlets.

00:52:28.020 But by the end, it would just be like, 0.99

00:52:29.260 oh, she's a criminal, she's a liar. 0.99

00:52:32.040 Yeah, and if we're going to look at her story as a whole, 1.00

00:52:35.240 I would say, I mean, scandalous...

00:52:37.800 A nine, a ten?

00:52:39.700 Yeah.

00:52:39.860 have i gone too high i think the fact that she was executed that she was paraded around the

00:52:46.380 country that her head was on the top like yeah i think a 10 is fair i think it's she had the

00:52:53.320 fians all around the country they had to do the tour of shame yeah she was very well known widely 0.95

00:52:59.440 scandalous i would say so and the fact that she was widely known that they were telling a story

00:53:04.300 across other parts of europe like i don't when you when you're put to death for your actions i

00:53:10.120 think that's a pretty high scandalousness we'll just pretend we'll come out just in for that one

00:53:17.840 okay yeah definitely the next one this is another interesting discussion because it's the scheminess

00:53:22.180 and this is like how and i i mean it on this podcast in a positive way you know i love a

00:53:28.360 woman with a plan with a scheme but in this it's like how much of this because a lot of it was she

00:53:34.920 was clearly being at least led if not manipulated like oh do you have a vision and could the vision

00:53:40.480 say this thanks like that's the thing yeah and she did try to get out of that at one point but

00:53:46.020 so I don't know how I wouldn't give her a 10 for this because I think I would initially I'd be 1.00

00:53:51.260 inclined to think oh very schemey but then you think well no she she was so incredibly manipulative 1.00

00:53:55.980 I think at the beginning, scheminess should be about a four. 0.98

00:53:59.900 But then I think as she sort of found her feet, started to believe herself and then needed to take charge of the situation.

00:54:07.080 I think it kind of creeps up to maybe a seven.

00:54:10.300 No, I think that's fair. It's tricky to tell because of how much was she like, and she wouldn't know either.

00:54:16.080 But, you know, how much of this is her being like, yes, I'm going to do this and get fame and glory.

00:54:19.540 And how much of it is her being like legitimately believing she is a prophet, you know, which is not really schemey.

00:54:25.660 that's just kind of being herself you're slightly disillusional oh um maybe i was also

00:54:34.340 thinking you know when she's deep in prayer for hours on end and you know without drinking maybe

00:54:39.140 get lightheaded maybe you start to interpret your own thoughts as yeah as from god and it's easy to

00:54:47.580 see how you could believe yeah like if you're thinking about in terms of like a con artist in

00:54:53.440 this era you know there's other people running around who are actively you know they would just

00:54:58.580 you know crump up a piece of paper and be like this piece of paper was jesus's paper like there's

00:55:04.020 people who are actively being criminals you know and she's kind of she's not there but i think i

00:55:11.420 think a seven is fair you know the fact that she thought to turn down uh anne boleyn because she

00:55:19.280 thought she was in a better position i think she had to be using her brain a bit bit of the scheming

00:55:23.420 going on there yeah okay we'll stick with seven i think that's it i think it's too good too and

00:55:26.780 also i'm just thinking you know at first when people she could have shut this down and well

00:55:31.100 once it's it's a machine that's moving with other people would have been harder but like she could

00:55:35.620 have just been like sorry i don't have any more visions that's it visions are closed the end like

00:55:39.680 she did continue and that kind of shows yeah and perhaps some scheminess definitely there is some

00:55:46.520 i think she got on board with the scheminess and yeah what we haven't really touched on but just

00:55:51.100 so very briefly that she would meet up with the Marchioness of Exeter,

00:55:55.980 which was Catherine of Aragon's close friend.

00:55:59.660 And towards the end, she started sort of inciting a royal coup.

00:56:05.100 Now, I know that is quite a statement to then brush over and say,

00:56:07.560 but anyway, moving on, there's a lot of detail.

00:56:11.020 Again, read the book.

00:56:12.460 No, read the book, exactly.

00:56:13.320 But yeah, she was up in these schemes, these high-level coup-adjacent.

00:56:20.320 there you go yeah yeah so okay I think seven is um I think it's fair the next category is

00:56:29.360 significance and this is more significance to to history in general and I think a book like yours

00:56:35.660 really shows you know 25 years ago maybe nobody would have known her significance but now like

00:56:42.120 people like you have been finding and it's like oh actually it directly correlates to this and this

00:56:46.540 and this so where would you rank her her life um and what she did to the significance of Tudor

00:56:54.560 history well I'm going to have to go bold like the nun and say 10 because I truly think she had

00:57:02.280 catastrophic impact on Anne Boleyn's marriage her death on the reformation but you know at the

00:57:10.600 beginning of the book and also as you say 25 years ago so I would have said what two but now I'm

00:57:15.740 get yeah all going 10 yeah no yeah go bold if there's one thing we learned from her

00:57:23.080 and then the final category is what i call this sexism bonus which is kind of like

00:57:30.040 how much did the patriarchy and sexism get in the way of what she would have done and in her case

00:57:35.980 i would say something like if this was a man if this had been a male house servant who had these

00:57:41.460 visions would the story have progressed the same way and would it have ended the same way i think

00:57:47.640 there's something about her being a young woman made her more believable somehow i don't know

00:57:52.380 yeah no no i agree i've not actually considered yet if she'd have been a man would this have gone

00:57:57.400 anywhere um there were obviously male province obviously um she might have been safer had it

00:58:04.520 actually gone ahead and happened but would it have happened in the first place that's a really good

00:58:10.220 question yeah there's definitely something about the the sort of innocent virgin woman or girl

00:58:16.040 yeah so there's something it's a tricky one because like obviously like she's living in 0.88

00:58:20.700 Tudor era a very misogynistic patriarchal time she was a housemaid like she wouldn't have had 0.96

00:58:25.700 very many good options for her life but she she was like I had a vision and I'm a nun and I should

00:58:33.400 become like she somebody would get a 10 in the sexism bonus if they were 14 and they're married

00:58:40.540 to some odious 60 year old man who keeps them trapped away and they just have child after child 0.93

00:58:46.780 until they die in childbirth like that would be a 10 out of 10 because they just had no chance and

00:58:50.420 that's a person i want to just give some points because they didn't get points in other categories

00:58:53.520 probably okay okay right we're really thinking this right okay so for her i i think certainly

00:59:00.100 like the fact that she was manipulated like she was and then because she was a woman it was easier 0.96

00:59:05.200 to throw her under the bus and be like yeah and also she had did she feel because she was a woman

00:59:12.020 and because they were men saying you're having these visions what you're you're speaking these

00:59:16.080 words in your trance is that why she went along and believed them if it had been a woman if it

00:59:21.900 had been the the house the other housemaid saying oh guess what you've just said yeah would she have

00:59:27.040 gone along with it or gone get away with you i don't know like there's part of there's a sort

00:59:31.500 of people pleasing thing where it's just like well these men are telling me i should do this

00:59:34.840 and so i need to do this because they're men and i'm alone so i don't know i more than men

00:59:39.900 taking advantage like the king the pope yeah what we'll see so wait so what what are we saying is

00:59:45.740 she was a victim of the patriarchy and we should calculate that or just the yes the how much was

00:59:53.060 How much did the patriarchy lead to what happened in her life, which is a complicated thing to think about?

00:59:59.580 I would say it may fit a number. That's an insane question. I know.

01:00:04.020 But I would say seven. What do you think?

01:00:10.400 Why seven? Why so low? I would actually go higher.

01:00:13.960 Yeah. I would say low because she did have some more independent option that other women in this 0.99

01:00:23.280 era might not have had, like that she was. Oh, OK, right. Yeah. Yeah. And she did have a

01:00:28.680 possession of power. She did wield this power over the men. So she sort of turned it to her 0.98

01:00:32.700 advantage. OK, I was going to go here. I was going to say about nine. But yes. So even though

01:00:38.960 she was a victim of the patriarchy, she then did start using it to her advantage. 0.99

01:00:42.800 exactly yeah particularly like when she starts having the the men uh carry out penance that

01:00:48.920 would really oh my gosh we didn't even talk about that where she explained that part yes around your

01:00:55.480 neck if you really want to like preach my words and yes you need to be pure you need to starve

01:01:00.940 yourself and yeah she was um she was pretty vindictive in the end and and again i think that

01:01:06.540 that shows that she knew at that point she was being taken advantage of and she wanted to inflict

01:01:11.680 some pain on the men who'd been pushing her front and center in these situations go speak to the

01:01:18.220 king of england what no this was this was yeah towards the end of her story where it's like

01:01:23.980 the way that she's pushing back because she had the moment where she had the like smells like

01:01:27.100 feces devil spit on her face and she went to see him but then also later yeah like you're describing

01:01:32.160 the the men who were around her she was like well you guys have to live a completely penitent life

01:01:37.160 if you want more prophecies from me and that means you have to wear these hair shirts and

01:01:41.360 you have to fast wait hair shirts that's not bad enough you have to wear those kind of like

01:01:45.440 metal things yeah it'll tighten around your chest constricting your breathing or so it hung so it

01:01:51.840 would like create welts on the skin and then get infected like when you really start to think about

01:01:56.800 what this or the reality of the penance was it was actually quite brutal so um yeah she's she's

01:02:02.580 she has some power in that she really did and wield it and it sounds like she was quite a

01:02:08.140 formidable presence

01:02:08.920 when she did have

01:02:09.760 these meetings

01:02:10.240 with Cardinal Wolsey

01:02:11.820 and Stanley

01:02:12.320 made them

01:02:13.700 so

01:02:14.660 okay

01:02:15.540 I mean maybe

01:02:16.720 now we've considered this

01:02:18.620 I'm thinking maybe

01:02:19.300 oh it's so difficult

01:02:21.320 she was a victim

01:02:22.320 but she 1.00

01:02:23.360 used it to her advantage 0.82

01:02:24.500 I don't know

01:02:24.840 we'll stick with seven

01:02:25.480 we'll stick with seven

01:02:26.220 okay

01:02:26.940 this is like

01:02:27.800 this is where it's

01:02:28.520 an interesting conversation

01:02:29.300 this is

01:02:29.820 her story is so interesting

01:02:31.280 but

01:02:31.660 so this lands her

01:02:32.760 with a final score 0.94

01:02:33.500 of 34

01:02:34.180 so I'll just give you

01:02:35.420 let's see

01:02:36.100 who else is

01:02:37.700 Who is she up against then?

01:02:39.220 Who is she up against?

01:02:40.480 Let's see.

01:02:41.340 I'm trying to find people who you may have heard of

01:02:43.480 because I've done a lot of seasons of this show.

01:02:48.880 From this era.

01:02:49.600 Are you tutors in me?

01:02:51.280 We're just getting into the tutors now.

01:02:53.620 So I don't know if you've heard of Marie Maitland,

01:02:56.940 who is the Scottish poet.

01:02:59.560 There's just a book coming out about her.

01:03:00.900 She's like a lesbian Scottish poet of this era.

01:03:03.960 She has a 36.

01:03:05.080 So she's got 36 and what did Barton have?

01:03:08.780 We've got a 34 for Barton. 1.00

01:03:11.420 Mary Queen of Scots is at a 36. 1.00

01:03:13.780 So she's like just below.

01:03:15.620 Okay.

01:03:16.520 With a 34.

01:03:17.220 I'm seeing who else is around a 34. 0.63

01:03:19.740 Yeah, she's along to the Queen's. 0.99

01:03:21.380 It just goes to show, you know.

01:03:23.500 You know, Cleopatra has 34.5.

01:03:27.020 Really?

01:03:28.900 Wait, who's low down?

01:03:30.940 on is this so generally is it the the impact then that they've had the overall score it's the what

01:03:38.920 you need to have a bit of a score in every category and there's always like the highest

01:03:42.740 up people have a bit of points in everything the lower down people like maybe they were really

01:03:46.680 scandalous but their significance is low you know like some sort of like you know vaudeville singer

01:03:52.280 or something like somebody who just had a good time but their impact on history was minimal that

01:03:57.740 would be somebody who's quite low down you've got to have an industry if you're gonna go big

01:04:02.420 and even if you're home you've got to have an impact along the way exactly exactly so this is

01:04:07.320 where it's just we i like to it's just kind of a way to to have everybody on on a list and i like

01:04:12.040 you know there's so many lists that are like the greatest people of history or like the greatest

01:04:15.200 leaders and i like to have my skill that gives points to things and to people who don't ordinarily

01:04:20.380 show up high up on a list i like this i like that you've thought of this it's a great list there's

01:04:25.800 a book in this how many of you got on your list oh dozens there's it's it's quite a long list and

01:04:31.980 it's interesting too it's always I love like talking with authors like you sometimes I did

01:04:36.120 the episodes myself sometimes I have an author on of people authors are always so passionate

01:04:39.860 about the people they've done a biography of so those scores are always higher than maybe I would

01:04:45.500 have done but no but I respect and like no one's thought about this about Elizabeth Barton more

01:04:51.340 than you at this point. So I respect your opinion entirely. You've been living with her. Yeah.

01:04:56.880 I feel like I'm her lawyer now. She's had a publicist and a manager. She's got me as her

01:05:00.540 lawyer. So yeah, no, she needs the full team. Exactly. Oh, if only she had a lawyer.

01:05:05.840 But I wanted to ask you, so your book is available at the time people are listening to this. It's

01:05:09.800 available in the UK and then it's coming out in North America in December, right?

01:05:14.220 Yes. I actually don't know what the date is, but yeah, it will be coming out. I've seen the covers

01:05:19.080 as well um i actually think i prefer the north america cover isn't that controversial but

01:05:26.260 they're very very similar um no i love them yes please uh have a read and the way i've sort of

01:05:32.460 written it i've tried to just present the evidence and because there's so many different ways in which

01:05:37.000 can go down i feel like the reader will come away with a different view to the next and it really is

01:05:43.880 down to you you kind of kind of play tudor detective yeah yeah what do you think really

01:05:48.280 exactly exactly so many different ways it could go as you've seen from our conversation today so

01:05:55.560 yeah i'll be very interested to hear what's this out there what readers are saying and what they

01:05:59.880 make of her and do you have uh how can people keep up with you do you have a social media or

01:06:05.340 a website or how can people know what what you're up to i have it all i will website which i don't

01:06:11.440 really update as much as i should it's just hayleynolan.com but i'm on social media tiktok

01:06:16.600 and Instagram. And that is Hayley Nolan historian. So come say hi. We'll have a Tudor debate there.

01:06:23.980 Perfect. Exactly. Exactly. And I would imagine you'll have readings and events and things and

01:06:29.400 you'd just be posting about those there. So if people want to keep up with you.

01:06:32.560 Yeah. I've got some evening in publication week in like bookshops and I've got to be doing

01:06:37.620 something for the American release. So maybe I'll do some.

01:06:41.640 Like online or something.

01:06:43.440 Yeah. Fly me out to LA.

01:06:46.600 new york chicago yeah do it up paperbacks we'll see how it goes but you've always been so lovely

01:06:55.040 chatting with you thank you so much yeah thank you so much this is a wonderful wonderful conversation

01:06:59.720 about a person i'd never heard of and now i'm obsessed with so thank you that's what i like

01:07:05.180 to hear that's how all conversation should end obsessed obsessed thank you so much

01:07:11.000 so Haley's book Notorious Anne Boleyn and the Great Tudor Hoax it's available right now

01:07:22.020 in the UK if you are in North America if you're in the US or in Canada you can pre-order it it'll

01:07:29.720 be available for you on December 1st if you've never pre-ordered a book before it's pretty

01:07:34.340 straightforward you can go to your favorite independent bookstore your favorite book website

01:07:38.220 and just order it. Like look up the book, Notorious by Hayley Nolan, place your order.

01:07:43.620 And then on December 1st, it will just show up. It'll be mailed to you or you can pick it up at

01:07:47.100 your bookstore. It's such a great book. And I think it really helps expand upon this very well

01:07:53.220 known story of Anne Boleyn, Henry VIII and what was going on at that time. And if you want to

01:07:59.040 know more about Anne Boleyn, stay tuned to this podcast next week. I also have other information

01:08:05.760 to tell you which is you can keep up with me on my patreon where you can get ad free episodes for

01:08:12.800 one dollar a month or and or for six dollars a month you also get bonus episodes featuring me

01:08:18.560 and some of my friends so for instance today this episode a new bonus episode just dropped

01:08:24.600 there on patreon where i'm discussing the francis hodgson burnett book a little princess with my

01:08:30.600 friends, Alison Epstein and Lana Wood Johnson, both of whom it turns out this book was really

01:08:36.220 important to them. I have never read it. So they explained the story to me. And you can listen to

01:08:40.240 that if you show my Patreon at the $6 or more a month level. And also people at that level get

01:08:44.920 access to our Discord chat to hang out with other history fans, as well as access to my monthly Zoom

01:08:50.900 live events. So these happen. I'm trying to do it every month or so. And in fact, the next one is

01:08:56.040 happening tomorrow, Thursday, September 24th. I'm going to be talking with author Vicki Vansicle

01:09:01.020 about tarot cards, which I'm going to be honest, I don't know anything about. And she's going to

01:09:06.920 explain it all to me. So if you want to do all those things, if you want to have all the fun,

01:09:11.940 go to patreon.com slash Anne Foster Writer. You can get a free trial to my Patreon. So you can

01:09:17.320 just like sneak into these events before it expires. It's like a seven day free trial.

01:09:20.920 or you can join as a paid member and get all these perks and help support this show

01:09:26.300 also heads up you can get vulgar history merchandise at vulgarhistory.com

01:09:31.760 slash store i also wrote a book it's called rebel of the regency and you can buy that wherever you

01:09:38.200 get your books and i'm really excited about it and i think you'll really love it and i'm excited

01:09:43.360 to be an author and if you like this podcast you'll probably like that book as well actually

01:09:49.580 you know what, since I'm on a roll, I'm going to tell you as well. We, the show, we have a brand

01:09:54.640 partner, which is Common Era Jewelry, which is a small woman-owned business based out of the

01:09:59.400 United States, where our friend of the podcast, Tori, she designs jewelry inspired by almost

01:10:05.640 always the ancient world. So like people who you might've seen in the movie, The Odyssey,

01:10:09.560 like there's Circe, we've got Clytemnestra, we've got Athena, lots of classical baddies like that.

01:10:17.200 and she made one exception to that which she included one person from a bit more recent

01:10:22.160 history and that person is Anne Boleyn so Anne Boleyn is part of their collection there you can

01:10:27.140 get a beautiful Anne Boleyn pendant you can get that in gold you can get it in more affordable

01:10:32.700 gold vermeil vulgar history listeners can always get 15% off all items from common era by going

01:10:39.100 to commonera.com slash vulgar 15 like vulgar 15 or just use code vulgar 15 that's v-u-l-g-a-r

01:10:46.600 at check out to get your discount there. Speaking of Anne Boleyn, next week, that's what we're

01:10:53.120 talking about. And so until then, everybody keep your pants on and your tits out. 0.99

01:10:59.300 Vulgar History is researched, scripted, and hosted by Anne Foster. Editor is Christina Lumagi. 0.99

01:11:05.280 Theme music is by The Severn Duo. Vulgar History artwork by Karen Moynihan. Social media videos by

01:11:11.240 Magdalena Denson. Transcripts of this podcast are available at vulgarhistory.com by Aveline

01:11:16.540 Malik. You can get early ad-free

01:11:18.620 episodes of Vulgar History by becoming

01:11:20.480 a paid member of our Patreon at

01:11:22.440 patreon.com slash Anne Foster

01:11:24.360 Writer. Vulgar History merch

01:11:26.440 is available at vulgarhistory.com

01:11:28.460 slash store for Americans and

01:11:30.360 vulgarhistory.redbubble.com

01:11:32.300 for everyone else. Follow us on social

01:11:34.480 media at vulgarhistorypod.

01:11:36.260 Get in touch with me at vulgarhistorypod

01:11:38.440 at gmail.com

01:11:39.960 Legendary stories

01:11:43.940 awe-inspiring sound

01:11:46.000 and endless adventure. Welcome to the Realms of Peril and Glory.

01:11:54.440 Explore the mechanically magical vistas of Vale,

01:11:59.180 the paranormal mysteries of Liminal London,

01:12:04.640 and the cyberpunk chaos of Cyborg.

01:12:09.040 fall in love with our core cast or be awed by our incredible guests from familiar shows

01:12:18.900 like oxventure three black halflings and no roles bard ignite your imagination and discover the

01:12:28.580 realms of peril and glory today go to realmspod.com or search realms of peril and glory wherever you

01:12:36.300 listen to podcasts. Welcome to Mick Unplugged, the number one podcast for self-improvement and

01:12:46.420 modern leadership. I'm Mick Hunt, your host, and I'm here to challenge your why and fuel your

01:12:52.880 because. This is where leaders, entrepreneurs, and go-getters come to level up. Each week,

01:12:59.080 I bring you unfiltered conversations, game-changing strategies, and the kind of motivation that

01:13:04.500 transforms lives and legacies.

01:13:06.900 I've learned from legends like Les Brown,

01:13:09.100 Damon John, and Robert Irvine,

01:13:11.240 and now I'm bringing their lessons,

01:13:13.740 along with mine, straight to you.

01:13:16.420 From modern leadership tips

01:13:18.140 to creating unstoppable momentum,

01:13:20.420 this is the podcast that redefines what's possible.

01:13:24.180 Hit play, subscribe, and join the millions

01:13:27.660 who've made Mick Unplug their go-to source

01:13:29.900 for growth and greatness,

01:13:31.960 Because your next breakthrough is just one episode away.

01:13:36.020 This is Mick Unplugged, the voice and face of modern leadership, entrepreneur, and self-improvement.

01:13:42.320 Let's get started.

01:13:50.240 Goodbye, Kyle!

01:13:51.840 Did the sound of those words call to you like Pavlov's dog?

01:13:54.740 Then you might enjoy our podcast, Turtle Time.

01:13:57.260 Every week you can join me, Riley Hamilton, and my co-host Amy Scarlotta as we cover the most pressing Bravo news and dig into the new episodes to answer important questions like, who the hell is Adrienne Maloof in this world?

01:14:10.460 Listen to Turtle Time on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday.

Vulgar History - September 23, 2026

Elizabeth Barton and the Downfall of Anne Boleyn

Episode Stats

Transcript