Vulgar History - Elizabeth Woodville, The English Queen Who Was Also (Maybe) A Witch

00:00:00.520 Hey, so before we get into today's episode, I wanted to let you know about a podcast that

00:00:05.360 I'm pretty sure you're going to like that is called Bad Women, hosted by historian Hallie

00:00:10.600 Rubenhold.

00:00:11.340 And if you're like, I recognize that name, that's because I recommended her book a few

00:00:15.200 episodes ago.

00:00:16.140 She wrote a book called The Five that was about five of the women who were killed by

00:00:19.980 Jack the Ripper.

00:00:20.840 And her podcast, Bad Women, expands on the same stuff that she talks about in her book.

00:00:25.800 So on Bad Women, historian Hallie Rubenhold uncovers the real lives of Jack the Ripper's victims, revealing the discrimination that put them in his path, the same sort of misogyny women still face today.

00:00:36.360 This show challenges established theories about the murders, causing many supposed Ripper experts to see you read.

00:00:42.960 Find Bad Women wherever you get your podcasts.

00:00:46.380 Like where you're listening to this, you can find Bad Women that same place. 1.00

00:00:55.140 hello and welcome to a super special halloween episode of vulgar history a feminist women's 0.79

00:01:12.200 history comedy podcast hosted by me and foster and so we're going to be having three halloween

00:01:19.540 episodes leading up to halloween itself and when i was looking to try and figure out what would be

00:01:24.820 good topics for this who were not people we'd already done like maybe re-listen to the elizabeth

00:01:29.840 bathry episode because that's pretty halloween-y i was looking at um well just women who had been

00:01:36.940 accused of being witches for a start and so many of these stories are like not not the sort of

00:01:42.160 stuff we do in this podcast really they're not they're just sad it's just women who mostly for

00:01:47.420 like property reasons were accused of being witches and then they were executed and it's all

00:01:54.260 depressing so that's not what i felt like doing for this podcast and then when i was looking

00:02:02.100 through to see there's this really good book that is called royal witches witchcraft and nobility

00:02:07.140 in 15th century england by jemma holman which i'll link to in our bookshop page which reminded me

00:02:17.300 about how many women circa the Cousins War aka War of the Roses era were accused of being witches

00:02:25.360 and that brought me to the fact that I haven't done an episode about Elizabeth Woodville and so 1.00

00:02:31.920 that's who we're going to talk about today she's a woman who was maybe you know what like maybe she 0.87

00:02:37.940 was a witch maybe she wasn't a witch if you watched the White Queen the Stars miniseries 0.96

00:02:45.800 and or like read the book the white queen by philippa gregory then you'd be like oh yeah she

00:02:50.160 was literally a witch she did magic um because philippa gregory that's what's so great about

00:02:56.320 philippa gregory stuff she just finds every rumor ever written about anybody and then

00:03:00.540 writes a story as though all of that really happened and maybe it did anyway elizabeth

00:03:05.620 woodville was rumors were that she was a witch because reasons we'll get into but her story

00:03:12.700 does not end with her being persecuted and executed and in terms of this podcast that's

00:03:18.500 as close as we ever get to a happy ending really so um i also looked at i just mentioned philippa

00:03:26.240 gregory she wrote or she co-wrote a non-fiction book called women of the cousins war and there's

00:03:32.020 a part in that about elizabeth woodville as well i also got some info from wikipedia because this

00:03:37.840 is well Elizabeth is a much more well-known figure than we often look at on this podcast

00:03:44.760 and it's great I didn't have to dig so much to find out some information about her

00:03:49.640 so off we go Elizabeth Woodville so we don't really know when she was born because it was

00:03:57.580 in the 15th century in England and she was a girl and slash just like a person she was not a king

00:04:03.600 like people just didn't care about astrology in the same way then we don't know when she was born

00:04:07.260 but probably around 1437 she was the eldest child of a very exciting and controversial

00:04:15.300 couple who were sir richard woodville who was just like a normal guy a knight but not like a royal

00:04:21.520 and her mother was jaquetta of luxembourg who was we're going to talk about jaquetta because you

00:04:28.180 can't talk about elizabeth without getting into what her mother's deal was so elizabeth's father

00:04:33.240 richard his family was wealthy but commoners and when he married jaquetta it became a scandal

00:04:39.580 because she was jaquetta of luxembourg was the daughter of peter i of luxembourg and his wife

00:04:46.060 margaret of bow their family the of luxembourg family claimed legendary descent from the water

00:04:54.360 deity melusine through their ancestor siegfried of luxembourg who had been alive like 500 years

00:05:01.340 before i'm going to talk more about melusine the legendary water deity in a bit but this is where

00:05:07.000 some of the witch stuff comes from because jaquetta's family claimed to be descended from

00:05:12.140 a kind of mermaid witch goddess again we'll get into that in a bit so jaquetta

00:05:19.780 of luxembourg was married for the first time when she was 17 years old and her husband was

00:05:27.220 john of lancaster the first duke of bedford who was the third son of henry the fourth of england

00:05:33.480 and married to bohun so jaquetta became the what would it be the niece-in-law of the english king 0.86

00:05:44.040 he they the marriage was only two years long they had no children he died so she was a hot

00:05:49.600 sexy widow age 19 and so let's see at this point the english king was like okay well let's send 0.65

00:05:58.600 her i'm not sure where she was living but it's like let's send her back to england maybe they

00:06:01.820 were in luxembourg or france i'm not sure maybe france anyway basically jacquetta was not there

00:06:07.340 she was a widow and she was the king's niece-in-law and so the king sent actually it looks like the

00:06:14.860 kings changed by the time over the course of this marriage was it another henry what you need to

00:06:21.540 know is that jaquetta was sent to england and the king sent to escort her richard woodville who was

00:06:27.980 this kind of trusted knight and wouldn't you know it these two people fell in love during the journey

00:06:32.980 during the journey across from wherever they were to england they fell in love and got a super

00:06:38.620 secret sexy married without seeking the king's permission because they were just like this is it

00:06:44.120 this is happening one might say did jaquetta cast a spell on him i don't know it would almost be the

00:06:50.880 reverse because this is like a step down for her really anyway uh when the king learned of the

00:06:56.420 marriage he refused to see them but then they paid a fine of 1 000 pounds and then he agreed

00:07:01.660 to see them again i guess their marriage between jaquetta and richard started on this scandalous

00:07:07.920 note and then it lasted a long time and they had a lot of children in fact they had 14 children

00:07:14.420 and again the oldest of them was elizabeth woodville which is who we're talking about today

00:07:19.100 who was born maybe 1437 or so we don't know much about elizabeth's childhood

00:07:25.880 but her family were in a very powerful position throughout her youth so she was probably

00:07:32.400 quite well because richard woodville's family was wealthy if common and then jaketta was 0.99

00:07:37.460 you know a water witch slash royal um jaquetta outranked all ladies at royal court with the 0.83

00:07:45.240 exception of the queen because of her lineage from luxembourg she's also a personal favorite 0.99

00:07:50.060 of the king and queen and so she enjoyed special privileges and influence at court

00:07:53.440 so again elizabeth probably had a pretty good privileged upbringing when elizabeth was around

00:08:01.220 15 years old she married a man named Sir John Gray they had two sons together here's what's

00:08:11.520 interesting so Sir John Gray and Elizabeth Woodville had these sons and then those sons

00:08:15.600 like the gray name I think it's through them but anyway this is where the Jane Gray last name comes

00:08:22.360 from because Francis remember Francis Gray from the other season of this podcast anyway this is

00:08:29.540 where the greys come from so sir john gray was killed in a war of the roses related battle

00:08:37.360 because this is the time when there's the lancasters there's the yorks they're fighting

00:08:41.820 i'm not going to explain all that because that's not i'll explain the stuff you need to know about

00:08:47.620 it but basically there's this civil war it's the cousins war because they're all descendants of

00:08:51.780 the same person and it's like who will be the king will be the lancasters or will it be the yorks

00:08:56.240 and that's where the names come from on Game of Thrones the Lannisters and the Starks but I mean

00:09:03.760 what this means to Elizabeth at the time is just kind of like she has two sons and now she is a

00:09:08.520 widow and she is 24 years old and then about three years later she secretly married King Edward IV

00:09:17.020 which is like how did that happen and that's what we're going to look at because nobody really knows

00:09:23.080 how that happened which is the good thing or i guess a thing about secret marriages in the 15th

00:09:29.800 century uh no one really writes very good records of what happens because it was a secret and time

00:09:35.920 has passed and they're good at keeping secrets so this is a theory of what might have happened

00:09:42.600 um just this is from me looking at some theories and then i kind of put together the most dramatic

00:09:50.080 ones to make it philippa gregory style but honestly like knowing the people involved the

00:09:56.140 era i think this is probably pretty similar to what happened so elizabeth's husband john gray

00:10:03.200 died in 1461 and he had been fighting for the lancasters against the yorks and then this meant

00:10:13.180 that the yorks who were more in control at the time took away the dower lands that elizabeth

00:10:20.100 should have inherited as his widow so she was now because he died on the wrong side of the battle

00:10:25.920 they took away those lands which we've seen happen to so many other women you know it's like 1.00

00:10:30.780 just because your husband did something then you are screwed over so this left her homeless 1.00

00:10:36.380 and her sons without any inheritance so again 24 year old widow single mother who was also

00:10:45.400 apparently like very good looking if you look at portraits of her i mean based on

00:10:51.940 the portraits of her are sort of like in between the sort of portraits from

00:10:58.460 fredegund era where it's just like very sort of like this is kind of what the person might

00:11:04.920 look like but they're very sort of like interpretive but this is pre the portraits from

00:11:09.520 like henry the eighth time when they look almost photorealistic so the pictures of elizabeth she

00:11:14.160 kind of looks like uh elsa from frozen she's got very exaggerated features she has very big eyes

00:11:22.780 and very little chin and she's very pretty but clearly she was both beautiful and charismatic 0.99

00:11:29.420 or maybe you know the stuff charismatic where like who cares what you look like in so in the 0.99

00:11:36.580 wikipedia article it says that she somebody said that she had heavy lidded eyes like a dragon but

00:11:41.760 that's cited to a book from 2009 and so i'm not sure i like clearly nobody at the time i don't

00:11:49.900 know maybe they did say she had heavy lidded eyes like a dragon but it's sort of a cleopatra thing 1.00

00:11:54.980 where she got so much influence people are like well it must be because she was really sexy because 1.00

00:12:00.840 otherwise why would men do what she said because she couldn't have been like competent and persuasive 0.89

00:12:06.300 or was she a witch so anyway she's 24 years old two young sons homeless so like so many millennials

00:12:16.960 today she moved back home with her parents because there's literally nowhere else for her to go

00:12:21.780 but she had a plan to try and one-on-one convince the king to restore her land and her son's

00:12:27.500 inheritance and her plan seemed to rest entirely on her powers of persuasion slash maybe beauty

00:12:35.140 slash witch powers just a stunning amount of self-confidence however she thought like if i

00:12:41.560 just explain this to the king like he will listen to me so she took her two young sons with her and 0.78

00:12:46.860 went to sit under a tree where she knew that king edward would be passing by and this is king edward

00:12:51.660 this is like hot young king edward he was young handsome single i said handsome but just like he

00:13:00.880 was a hot young king if you watch the white the white queen on the stars he's played by max irons

00:13:07.000 and so ever since then i'm just like hot young king edward so he came by on his horse just as

00:13:13.060 she had thought or because how she had made him with her witch powers and so she's just like oh

00:13:17.880 hey, I'm just like this lady under a tree. She like waved him over and he was like

00:13:21.860 immediately, apparently entranced by her. I don't know. Maybe it was just entranced by the fact

00:13:28.680 that by this like wild plan she had to just like wave him down under a tree. But apparently he felt

00:13:34.400 instantly in love with her because she was amazing, which she was. And he was like, I want you to

00:13:39.240 become my mistress. Like they just met. And she was like, I want you to restore my land and my

00:13:45.080 sense inheritance and then he was like well what if you marry me and she was like okay because then

00:13:50.820 she'd have a home to live in and money according to the various stories about this legendary meeting

00:13:57.360 part of this might have involved one of or the other tried to stab the other one so was her plan

00:14:03.080 to like threaten him with a knife but something happened under this tree and elizabeth woodville

00:14:10.180 emerged as the fiance of hot young king edward and this was notable and rule busting in several

00:14:17.200 crucial ways so number one she was english slash her mother was from luxembourg but she herself is

00:14:23.680 english and the king of england had never married an english woman before because the point of 0.64

00:14:29.400 marriages for kings was to cement alliances between different countries that's why the queens

00:14:34.040 were always from aquitaine or france or other places so she's the first ever english woman

00:14:41.400 to marry the king i feel like i don't i don't write this down but it was something like

00:14:46.100 there wasn't another english woman who married the king until i want to say anne boleyn something

00:14:53.120 like that and then after that not until like anyway it's notable because this is a very rare 0.67

00:15:01.340 thing to happen the other important rule busting thing is she was not royal like her mother was

00:15:06.960 sort of royal adjacent in the sense of luxembourg but she was a woodville and the woodvilles are 0.95

00:15:12.700 technically commoners and then they got super secret sexy married just like her parents had

00:15:18.240 and this was also a huge change from normal because usually like you know the entourage comes

00:15:23.580 the like teenage girl comes from some other country and there's this huge thing but royal

00:15:29.400 marriages were usually celebrated with huge parades and tournaments and hundreds of guests

00:15:33.840 and one of the reasons you know it's exciting a wedding it's a good time but also you wanted to

00:15:39.880 make a big deal of it so that there's no doubt that like this marriage had happened so nobody

00:15:44.080 could call into question the legality of it and we're gonna see what happens when you are a king

00:15:49.040 and have a secret sexy marriage in fact hot edward and elizabeth only had four guests at their tiny

00:15:55.800 ceremony her mother jaquetta two ladies maids and the priest who married them and none of them were

00:16:02.340 about to tell anyone what happened because this was sort of treason adjacent there is also the

00:16:08.340 concept that potentially edward wanted to have sex with elizabeth and so he pretended to marry her so

00:16:17.240 they would have sex to trick her which was also the plot line in an episode of the fresh prince

00:16:21.600 of bel-air one time but i don't know like if jacquetta was at the wedding i don't think she 1.00

00:16:27.640 would have let it be a fake wedding although maybe she would have because she was she would

00:16:33.280 have known the benefit of having a daughter who was the king's mistress so the whole thing is

00:16:37.580 kind of like shrouded in what was this they met under a tree and then they got married her mom

00:16:42.320 was there but like does that mean it was a legitimate marriage although this was an era

00:16:47.940 where i think two people could just like clasp hands in a field and be like we're married and

00:16:52.580 then they are like the whole witnesses thing like this gets it's catherine gray vibes so

00:16:59.820 they were secretly married

00:17:01.640 maybe and edward didn't tell anyone for months and months so they were like

00:17:08.160 this is such a reverse of usually it's like they got married and they didn't tell

00:17:12.520 queen elizabeth for months and months because they knew she would be bad but this is like

00:17:15.820 literally the king himself has a secret wife like i love this i love the secrecy i mean for

00:17:21.820 scandalousness this is pretty juicy how did they hide it like anyway um so edward he's off being

00:17:29.800 the hot king and his advisor lord warwick who you might remember from the episode about margaret of

00:17:35.920 anjou that same guy just always here to ruin everyone's good time so lord warwick was busy

00:17:41.620 trying to sort out a marriage alliance to a french princess because he thought he had this young king

00:17:46.360 and it's like this is a great way to like ally with another country and warwick is just like

00:17:50.020 how about her how about her and edward's like i'm not feeling it but he would never say like

00:17:54.620 because i'm already married but eventually he was like warwick i can't marry a french princess

00:17:59.280 because i'm already married to an english woman who is maybe a witch and lord warwick was so mad

00:18:06.600 so mad he was so mad about the secret marriage that he turned against him like he was his most

00:18:12.760 loyal whatever turned against him never forgave him switch teams um but now the secret was out

00:18:20.720 in the open and so elizabeth woodville became known as his wife and she was crowned queen of

00:18:28.300 england may 26th 1465 so the king's mother hot edward's mother is a woman called cecily neville

00:18:36.600 who again like i watched like the white queen i keep bringing it up because it was my first

00:18:41.380 exposure to this story in general so i really just codified what the actors look like in that

00:18:48.760 to who the real life people were and the woman who played cecily neville has these incredible hats

00:18:53.780 so whenever i think of cecily neville i just think like huge like hats horns on them like giant

00:19:00.440 veils like she's a pretty cool person and i'll probably do an episode about her one time cecily

00:19:05.900 neville always has a soft spot in my heart because her name is cecily among like three centuries of

00:19:14.500 english history where every woman is called elizabeth or catherine she's just like oh hey

00:19:18.060 cecily no big deal so cecily suspicious hated elizabeth because um elizabeth was technically

00:19:27.720 a commoner and cecily hadn't gone to choose her son's wife so this whole thing of edward choosing

00:19:32.020 his own wife was like monumental like everyone was just like choose your own wife marry for love

00:19:39.180 like what is this like it just confused and made everybody mad so elizabeth had at least two major

00:19:46.160 like very powerful and ruthless enemies cecily and warwick and so wouldn't you know it rumors 0.96

00:19:53.880 started flying around that she was maybe a witch or something you know she was descended from

00:20:00.140 melusine so well and the whole thing people were like that it would just threw everybody off like

00:20:07.020 the fact that like the king all of it like that he got married without telling anyone that he got

00:20:11.860 married without permission he married an english woman who was a widow who had children like

00:20:16.320 and everyone was like well i guess it must be that she's a witch and she tricked him somehow

00:20:22.060 because that's the only way that they could make this make sense and here's where we'll talk a bit

00:20:26.100 about her alleged ancestor melusine oh also fyi her mother jackado was at one point like formally

00:20:34.520 charged with witchcraft but she was found not guilty so witchcraft i think people just threw

00:20:40.280 run at this time to just be like this is a way to like maybe get a woman in trouble but melusine

00:20:46.400 or melusina is a figure of european folklore a female spirit of fresh water in a holy well 0.80

00:20:53.020 or river she is usually depicted as a woman who is a serpent or a fish from the waist down

00:21:00.040 like a mermaid she's sometimes illustrated with wings two tails or both her legends legends of

00:21:08.440 melusine are especially connected with the northern and western areas of france luxembourg

00:21:13.880 and the low countries so she's just like a legendary character in like folklore history

00:21:20.700 one of the many stories about her is that melusine was herself the daughter of the fairy presine and

00:21:27.480 king elenas of albany now scotland melusine's mother a fairy leaves her husband the scottish

00:21:36.820 king um taking her daughters to the isle of avalon after he breaks an oath never to look in at her

00:21:41.940 and her daughter in their bath okay so this is like you know the folk story it's halloween season

00:21:47.280 you know the one where it's like the woman with the yellow ribbon around the neck and then it's

00:21:51.000 like don't ever take the yellow ribbon off the neck and then when do you do and then her head

00:21:53.780 falls off so i think it's like um they got married and then she was like just never look at me in the

00:22:00.420 bath and then in a beauty and the beast likes twist you know he can't help himself and i guess

00:22:04.980 he saw at that point that they had fish bottoms of their bodies let's see the same pattern appears

00:22:12.160 in stories where melusine marries a nobleman only after he makes an oath to give her privacy in the

00:22:16.500 bath each time she leaves the nobleman after he breaks that oath although i like that i like that

00:22:21.540 it's not the husband is like ah you have a fish lower half and he leaves it's like no she's like

00:22:27.260 you broke your promise i'm taking my children goodbye so yeah so shape-shifting and flight

00:22:34.160 on wings away from oath-breaking husbands also figure in stories about melusine so the dynasty

00:22:41.060 the jacchetta was a part of is the limburg luxembourg dynasty which ruled the holy roman

00:22:46.560 empire from 1308 to 1437 which is the year elizabeth was born um anyway so when they were

00:22:57.800 like is elizabeth a witch it's they didn't have to reach very far to find reasons why she could be

00:23:03.600 but this the accusations of witchcraft didn't ruin things for her because her husband loved her and

00:23:11.780 it was all pretty pointless like trying to act against her because her her relatives began

00:23:20.000 gaining more and more influence around court because her mother was like again like i know

00:23:26.060 i've mentioned this like so many times in so many episodes but when i think of like a really powerful 1.00

00:23:29.960 like matriarch of a family who just like fixes things for all of their children and their 0.99

00:23:34.500 extended family like it's a chris gender situation like jaquetta just really had so many good 1.00

00:23:40.180 connections that paved the way to make things okay for elizabeth so yeah warwick scoots out

00:23:47.600 to go team up with margaret bonjour or whatever part of the war of the roses this is in and

00:23:52.840 elizabeth and edward are just like super happy together which is rare and weird because well i

00:23:59.160 guess there were probably other couples who were happy together but for a king and queen to be like

00:24:04.120 in love with each other is just like what like that's not how it works to everybody there so

00:24:10.180 they had three daughters basically all in a row but as we know from their descendant henry the

00:24:16.360 eighth's situation and fredigand and other people it's very crucial for people with tentative claims

00:24:23.680 to the throne to have a son in order to continue on the dynasty when you live in a wildly patriarchal

00:24:29.140 patriarchal patrilineal situation so three daughters i'm sure they love them but they're

00:24:34.000 just like a son would be great because it was all pretty tentative him being king because of the

00:24:38.960 whole war of the roses going on so elizabeth became pregnant with her fourth child just as

00:24:45.140 warwick came back to town in his new alliance with margaret of anjou to restore henry the sixth

00:24:53.180 to the throne and that we talk about in the margaret of anjou episode but how this affects

00:25:00.680 elizabeth so this is kind of like a little shifting the angle to see like when margaret

00:25:05.260 of anjou did this how did this affect elizabeth so warwick margaret of anjou and henry the sixth

00:25:12.420 who was the king who edward had replaced as king um when they were in town they had they had their

00:25:21.080 own powerful allies so edward hot edward had no choice but to leave town and go into hiding

00:25:26.000 elizabeth pregnant um described as hugely pregnant so like getting pretty close to giving birth

00:25:33.560 was left to fend for herself so i mean maybe that was the best option for both of them i'm like

00:25:40.440 really hot edward elizabeth apologizing here for them but i feel like he had to leave because if

00:25:47.820 he was killed that's it they still didn't have a son they just had daughters so like he had to not

00:25:52.800 die and then elizabeth like couldn't travel with him so i think i'm sure it was like i'm picturing

00:25:57.340 like a princess bride-esque moment where they have to part anyway so very pregnant elizabeth

00:26:02.160 grabbed her three daughters and went to westminster abbey and because there was the sanctuary thing

00:26:10.500 and luckily they were not up against fredigand in this situation because the people all around

00:26:16.560 her respected sanctuary so this actually worked so the thing like the sanctuary thing where if

00:26:21.100 you're in a church nobody was allowed to arrest you when you were in there so it was the safest

00:26:24.220 place for them to be and in fact she gave birth to her first son with edward in the church oh my

00:26:30.820 god no she grabbed all her children her three daughters her two sons who she already had and

00:26:35.500 then had another son gave birth in westminster abbey she named this son edward after his dad

00:26:42.440 and an appropriate name at this point she didn't know if she was going to ever see her husband

00:26:49.000 ever again and if she did i'm sure he'd be like oh my god your name is the boy after me it's so cute

00:26:54.540 so an epic situation of her resiliency it took a while but finally edward he didn't just leave

00:27:07.220 town and hide like he left town and hid but also like put together an army etc so he rolled back

00:27:12.040 into town with his army defeated warwick margaret of anjou henry the sixth killing warwick he grabbed

00:27:19.920 the crown back and the throne back and became king again so it's this weird period where the king was

00:27:25.080 like henry the sixth edward henry six edward again so and he got to reunite with elizabeth and like

00:27:30.720 meet his son so but also as much as i like ship these two it was a time and a place and he was a

00:27:41.060 king and he was not entirely faithful to elizabeth but that was an arrangement they're both okay with

00:27:49.820 and i respect it so she kept busy having four more children like this is like remember jaquetta had

00:27:56.140 14 elizabeth has had wait let me see the two sons three daughters him and then 10 my goodness

00:28:03.540 so she was busy being perpetually pregnant edward took on various mistresses and that was just kind

00:28:10.460 of the status quo for a while like everything was chaotic and who's going to be the king and

00:28:14.600 the king is changing like every three minutes but now it's sort of like everything's in place like

00:28:19.440 we're the king the queen we have numerous children but then suddenly um so that was like a couple

00:28:27.560 years of like okay everything but then in 1483 edward died of pneumonia and everything went

00:28:37.400 completely bananas so the whole thing they had the son so the new king should have been edward

00:28:44.660 little edward but um as we've seen in many instances having a little boy as king isn't

00:28:51.420 the greatest option when there's power mad ambitious schemers literally crawling out of

00:28:56.340 every wall trying to take over so because edward was still a boy his uncle was appointed as his

00:29:04.120 lord protector because you need to have the like regent slash adult person taking charge and

00:29:10.120 richard who i haven't mentioned before is um i mean spoiler richard the third is who he's going

00:29:19.360 to be when he becomes the king in a few minutes legendary baddie um a person that a lot of people

00:29:26.800 a lot of men really like to say wasn't a bad guy but again i first encountered him in

00:29:33.620 the White Queen where he was a bad guy and if you watch Hollow Crown which is based on the

00:29:38.260 Shakespeare plays Benedict Cumberbatch plays him anyway whether he was a good guy or a bad guy in

00:29:45.020 Elizabeth's story he was the baddest of bad guys to her so Richard was paranoid that the Woodvilles

00:29:52.960 would try and seize power from him by making one of Elizabeth's brothers the new lord protector

00:29:57.520 instead of him richard so he arrested her brother and he arrested her son from her first marriage

00:30:04.900 who i guess was now like an adult aged person her one of the gray sons elizabeth was kind of like i

00:30:11.860 don't like where this is going so she grabbed the rest of her like von trapp family of children

00:30:16.640 and went into hiding kind of like in sound of music so edward her son was still called prince

00:30:24.020 edward because he hadn't been officially coronated yet was sent to the tower of london which you're

00:30:28.260 like wait what the jail but at this point that was not a jail that was just like a cool palace

00:30:32.380 where people could go or well that's where he anyway richard said we're just gonna put prince

00:30:39.120 edward in the tower of london for safekeeping don't worry about it it's not a jail it's just

00:30:42.580 like a castle thing but um maybe anyway we're getting to the what are they called the little

00:30:52.560 princess in the tower or whatever so richard accused elizabeth of plotting to murder him

00:31:00.380 which fair if i were her that's what i planned to because the next thing he did was execute

00:31:06.540 elizabeth's son and brother the ones who he had put in jail before so frankly like and it's i

00:31:14.020 might just be having the after effects of the three-part fredigan series but i'm just like i

00:31:17.820 wish she kind of had you know um anyway so he accused elizabeth of applying to murder him which

00:31:22.800 was just trying to make elizabeth look bad and then richard passed an act of parliament declaring

00:31:28.360 edward hot edward and elizabeth's marriage null and void because of the secret sexy nature of it

00:31:33.960 like there wasn't witnesses etc and that meant that all of their children were illegitimate

00:31:40.140 which meant that he richard was the one true king of england and so this is again like where the

00:31:46.040 secrecy the secret sexy marriage turns out to not have been the best way to do things in this era

00:31:52.480 when you were the king because one of the reasons worlds have huge party weddings is so everybody

00:31:56.920 knows who's married to who so there's no question about who did what and when and that's why in some

00:32:01.340 places you have like people who watch the the first what's it called the consummation like

00:32:07.700 watch the people have sex so nobody can be like they so there's not going to be like an annulment

00:32:11.740 situation later on but richard who would score very highly in scheminess were i to do an episode 0.97

00:32:21.160 about him and maybe i will on so this asshole on the patreon he was like edward had a secret 0.89

00:32:26.540 pre-contract to marry some other woman who is now conveniently dead and so she can't 0.93

00:32:32.160 uh confirm or deny this so this means he was never legally able to marry elizabeth because

00:32:37.940 he had this pre-contract and then he also accused elizabeth of being a mermaid witch or whatever

00:32:44.700 but then this all kind of went away because everyone is busy with all the rest of

00:32:48.620 the stuff richard was doing which is all just kind of like evil things so somewhere in this

00:32:55.440 whole mess elizabeth's other son so she had whatever i said 10 children the two from the

00:33:01.280 first she had eight children with edward two of whom were sons and who's named richard little

00:33:08.340 richard so little edward and little richard for some reason little richard was also sent to hang

00:33:14.780 out with prince edward in the tower of london and neither was seen again they became known as the

00:33:20.420 princes in the tower and it's one of these like famous unsolved situations like they went into

00:33:26.380 the Tower of London and were never seen again so presumably somebody killed them maybe Richard

00:33:32.320 maybe someone else maybe they just got consumption but they just kind of were never seen again and

00:33:37.840 that's a whole thing I think at some point somebody found like little boy skeletons in there so it's

00:33:42.900 like for sure they died like I don't think they ran off so her two sons her brother was killed

00:33:48.100 her gray son was killed her other two sons like we don't know what happened to them 0.99

00:33:52.280 and Elizabeth is just like fuck you Richard so she's not gonna go down without a fight 0.99

00:33:58.580 but also this is where like if she had witch powers I feel like she could have done something 1.00

00:34:03.100 more powerful but what she had was just supreme cleverness self-confidence and a lot of good 1.00

00:34:11.780 allies so she was now not the queen anymore because officially her marriage never happened

00:34:17.120 so she was now known officially as Dame Elizabeth Grey which is I like that because it reminds me

00:34:23.040 of like Dame Judi Dench and it's just there's this movie called like I think it's called The Dames

00:34:29.440 it's like Dame Maggie Smith Dame Judi Dench anyway who's the one with the Dame Diana Rigg like

00:34:36.440 everyone who's a dame that I can think of are just like super badass and I feel like I like

00:34:40.560 this for Elizabeth although she should be queen because Richard's the worst so she looked around 0.96

00:34:46.380 at who was around her and who were her allies and who could she use and then she decided

00:34:53.060 out of everybody in sort of like an enemy of my enemy is my ally sort of way she decided to team

00:35:00.800 up with a woman named margaret beaufort who i love dearly there are a lot of women named margaret

00:35:08.040 in this story margaret beaufort she like almost died in childbirth age 12 she is the mother of

00:35:16.100 the Tudor dynasty she's a person I'm gonna probably end up doing a three hour episode about

00:35:21.240 one day she's also somebody who maybe according to Philippa Gregory is the one who killed the

00:35:26.980 princess in the tower anyway so Elizabeth and Margaret Beaufort had not been friends before

00:35:31.980 but now it's just kind of like well you know I think we need to team up in this one instance

00:35:36.440 and so Elizabeth decided she was gonna work with Margaret to get Margaret's son Henry Tudor

00:35:42.180 to be the new king instead of evil richard so um i'm not going to get into the family

00:35:48.360 cheat because this is just like what was the other one that was so complex we did i don't

00:35:52.640 remember but this is like basically they were like let's get margaret's son henry two years

00:35:58.640 to be the king and let's marry him to elizabeth's daughter also named elizabeth because let's just

00:36:05.480 make this more confusing her daughter elizabeth of york so what would happen

00:36:09.920 is that Margaret's daughter Elizabeth is from like the York side um the Henry Tudor was I guess

00:36:21.960 on the Lancaster side anyway when they came together it would stop it would join York and

00:36:26.680 Lancaster and it would be a new team team the Tudors and that's where the Tudors were going

00:36:31.360 to come from but also it helps because Margaret Beaufort's son Henry Tudor has like a tenuous

00:36:36.680 claim to the throne in various ways i won't get into but elizabeth's daughter also elizabeth

00:36:42.040 has a much clearer way like as potentially to be the heir to the throne because she's the oldest

00:36:48.580 surviving child of hot edward and elizabeth so anyway marrying these two two people together

00:36:54.280 was just kind of like good for everybody and on their side to be like two families joining together

00:37:00.620 unstoppable so richard was doing sort of like is happening now if you're keeping up with the

00:37:08.940 britney spears story kind of like what britney spears's dad is doing where he's trying to be

00:37:13.460 like oh i'm not a horrible villain like these other people are worse than me right and it's

00:37:21.320 like no one believes you so richard was doing the same thing he's trying to seem like less

00:37:25.040 villainous and so he swore a public oath that he wouldn't harm elizabeth woodville or her daughters

00:37:30.100 so elizabeth and her daughters because all her sons are dead now they emerged from wherever

00:37:38.460 they were hiding not so westminster abbey but somewhere and they rejoined royal court pretending

00:37:42.700 like they all didn't hate richard and blame them for having murdered little edward and little

00:37:47.820 richard uh there is a rumor that i don't care for but i can't not tell you because again uh

00:37:58.040 philipa gregory really leans into it which is that little elizabeth so elizabeth's daughter

00:38:03.180 elizabeth of york was in love with richard who was her uncle and that's just like i think it's

00:38:08.820 been quite widely debunked that that didn't happen because this isn't like ancient egypt and people

00:38:15.100 were not marrying their uncles in this situation but anyway there's that rumor i choose to not

00:38:21.380 believe that one but if you watch the white queen slash the white princess that's one of the it's

00:38:27.740 like a love triangle anyway so um king richard has a wife whose name is anne neville and she died

00:38:35.260 and her story is sad and maybe i'll do a podcast about her one day and then henry tudor attacked

00:38:43.680 he defeated richard at this famous thing called the battle of bosworth which like

00:38:48.900 people who are into making like miniatures and like recreating army fights it's like a big thing

00:38:55.720 for them so henry tudor attacked he won and he became king oh and then this is where he marries

00:39:01.960 elizabeth of york so like they were elizabeth woodville and margaret beaufort were like let's

00:39:07.240 marry our kids but like first let's like kill richard okay now we'll marry our kids so now 0.90

00:39:12.280 the actual wedding happened so when this marriage happened elizabeth woodville was reinstated she was

00:39:18.420 no longer just dame elizabeth but now she's queen dowager so which made her marriage to edward and

00:39:24.340 her children legitimate again and then after all this she kind of just goes off the radar there's

00:39:31.360 not a lot known about her later years which frankly like again to be like the Britney Spears

00:39:36.800 of it all like I want for Elizabeth to just have some quiet time for contemplation just like

00:39:41.920 sit on a beach somewhere and just like chill like this is good for her and I hope that's what she 0.95

00:39:47.060 got to do her version of this because i don't think beaches in like england are especially warm

00:39:54.480 year-round she went to live at bramondsey abbey for the next five years we don't know why um she

00:40:00.580 had been very religious her whole life so it's possible she decided to just like devote herself

00:40:04.980 to religious contemplation which again her version of just like sitting on a beach

00:40:08.860 uh but counterpoint there was a rebellion in 1487 in which she might have been involved

00:40:17.840 and the king might have sent her to the nunnery as sort of like a punishment for her involvement

00:40:22.380 who knows she was just like at a nunnery for a bit and then she wasn't so

00:40:27.420 and then she died on june 8th 1492 aged 55 at bermondsey abbey this place where she went

00:40:39.520 we don't know why so in terms of significance i'm not scoing her but i'm just kind of like

00:40:45.720 outlining it for myself so this is the first english royal marriage that happened because

00:40:51.120 of love and lust not for political reasons the first time the king like chose his own

00:40:56.700 queen not wasn't as given to her and i have to think so they their child one of their children

00:41:05.900 was elizabeth of york who became the grandmother of henry the eighth and if you just look at

00:41:10.080 the tutors like this is where that family kind of starts like that's a thing that kept happening

00:41:16.380 quite disastrously so henry the eighth famously married for love and lust several times

00:41:22.740 all of which went badly um mary and margaret tudor so henry the eighth's sisters both like

00:41:30.140 all the secret sexy marriages the gray sisters it's like this was like the beginning of just

00:41:35.400 the tutors just making horrible slash exciting marriage decisions spontaneously like if you

00:41:42.080 think about mary tudor didn't the same thing happen like she was married to the mary tudor

00:41:47.600 henry's sister not his daughter she who i did the podcast about she was in france married the king

00:41:54.760 the french king but then he died and then charles brandon came to bring her over and then they fell

00:41:59.860 in love on the trip like this is just like i don't know if it's reincarnation or just history

00:42:04.460 repeating but so elizabeth woodville kind of established that precedent so after she died

00:42:12.660 super young 55 i wish he had lived for like much longer she was buried in saint george's chapel at

00:42:18.860 windsor castle alongside hot edward and across from the bodies commonly accepted to be those

00:42:24.540 of their sons little edward and little richard and fun fact saint george's chapel at windsor castle

00:42:30.240 is the same chapel in which numerous other royal marriages have been held for instance prince harry

00:42:35.680 and Meghan Markle got married there and I can't not mention the the similarities there which is

00:42:45.220 like a royal who marries for love to a commoner who's been married before and then a lot of people

00:42:52.980 got mad at her and accused her of things but the two of them loved each other a lot and

00:43:00.960 i like that sort of connection for them so that's elizabeth woodville we're gonna score her

00:43:11.060 obviously so in terms of scandaliciousness i feel like it's not like again like having just

00:43:19.480 if you listen to it the fredigan episodes like no one's gonna ever be fredigan level

00:43:23.220 consistent ongoing scandalousness for decades but nor should everybody be because then what

00:43:33.780 would scandalous even mean if everybody was like that but elizabeth woodville like the secret sexy

00:43:39.060 marriage and then like that's that's the one major scandalousness moment of her life and it's

00:43:47.560 a pretty major one but it is just one thing but not to take away from her so i think i'm going

00:43:53.820 to give her a seven for scandalousness because it's just one thing but it's quite a thing and 1.00

00:44:00.840 it led to an awful lot of fallout her scheminess i think is pretty good like she's not you know

00:44:08.740 leading armies or whatever but she's just like this is happening okay we're gonna go to sanctuary 0.93

00:44:12.520 okay i'm gonna team up with this person or that person like given the small amount of power she

00:44:17.520 had as a widow um as a very pregnant woman as in all these situations like she really seemed to

00:44:24.440 always choose the best path and maybe that was her witch power was divining what to choose 1.00

00:44:28.920 for scheminess i think i'm going to give her

00:44:31.260 maybe also a seven significance i think is very high everything i just outlined so being the

00:44:39.960 first english woman to marry the king the fact that their marriage led to the culmination of

00:44:47.020 the wars of the roses like the fact that she's the mother of the princess in the tower like she's

00:44:51.400 like her lineage like often i just like it's significance of like well who are their children

00:44:55.840 and they become important like her grandson is henry the eighth and then like elizabeth the

00:45:03.020 first is like you know like this really changed english history so i think she gets a 10 for

00:45:13.160 significance the sexism bonus is always a tricky one and this is where well I mean frankly I make

00:45:21.780 up all these scores as I go I do not plan ahead and I don't remember what I scored anyone else

00:45:25.660 so it's a very from the gut thing but the sexism bonus is always to look at people who from the

00:45:31.440 point of view of like how much did that hold them back like what more could they have done

00:45:34.480 if they weren't dealing with this rampant level of sexism and so she did in terms of like the

00:45:41.020 patriarchy like the fact that once her husband died and he was on the wrong side like she became 1.00

00:45:46.560 homeless and bankrupt and then the fact that richard was able to take over because women

00:45:51.920 didn't have power like yes that all sucks and she i don't know it was it didn't really 0.63

00:46:02.380 it's tricky i'm gonna give her a seven for sexism as well so what does that add up to

00:46:07.880 that's a 31 that's i'm comfortable with that i'm comfortable with that so in terms of the list of 1.00

00:46:20.820 everybody like and that's the thing like it all adds up like she had this scandal she had the

00:46:27.740 scheminess but like the significance is what really took her over the edge here so other

00:46:31.580 people with a 31 sophia dorothea of cella um agrippina from ancient rome has a 31

00:46:38.000 she is one point above empress matilda one point above juana the first of castile like i feel like

00:46:45.360 i'm comfortable with this placement for her but also it's my podcast and i decide these things

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Vulgar History - October 13, 2021

Elizabeth Woodville, The English Queen Who Was Also (Maybe) A Witch

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