Vulgar History - April 17, 2024


Indigenous Canadian Heroine Thanadelthur and the Hudson's Bay Company

Topics
oral history Sainalda
The Real Story Of Pocahontas (Whose Name Was Actually Matoaka) Las Soldaderas of the Mexican Revolution

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32

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1

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Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
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00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast. My name is 0.73
00:00:16.300 Anne Foster and today is such a special episode for me and I hope for you also. Today we're
00:00:22.420 going to be talking about a figure from Canadian history, from Dene history, Indigenous history
00:00:27.980 of North America named Denelder, who I had heard about. I spent a lot of time looking up who are
00:00:35.500 some women from history. And as a podcast host based in Saskatchewan and Canada, I've long
00:00:41.120 wanted to find somebody where there's enough information. And it's a story that's got enough
00:00:46.840 twists and turns that we can do an hour-long podcast about her. And Denelder was someone
00:00:51.260 I'd always wanted to learn more about. And then I happened upon, just in my regular searching for
00:00:56.760 things. I found a paper that was written by today's guest, Rosalie Tassani-Burseth about
00:01:01.780 the Nalder. And it really had the level of information that I needed to be able to be
00:01:07.940 confident that this can be an episode of the podcast. I'm going to tell you a little bit of
00:01:12.700 Canadian history just to sort of get everybody, because there's a lot of people listening who
00:01:17.080 are not in Canada and you don't know the history of what led to the situation we're going to be
00:01:22.020 looking at so effectively. So for much of the 17th century, there were French colonists in
00:01:29.860 what we now call Canada, and there were English colonists. And for thousands of years, tens of
00:01:35.320 thousands of years before then, there were lots and lots and lots of indigenous people.
00:01:40.380 And so Northern Canada, what we would now call Northern Canada, was one of the,
00:01:46.240 in terms of the European colonization of North America, it's kind of one of the last places
00:01:51.200 where that happened just because it's one of the more challenging places to live if you don't know
00:01:56.440 how to live in that sort of climate and that sort of temperature. And so what ended up happening
00:02:03.120 is that a company, like literally a company, the Hudson's Bay Company, which is where the current
00:02:10.780 company you might have heard of now, The Bay in Canada, that's where they got their start,
00:02:15.200 is the Hudson's Bay Company. And so what this was is that during the reign of Charles II,
00:02:21.200 They got funding to come and explore around northern Canada to find, for hunting reasons, for fur trade reasons, the history of much of Canada, what we now call Canada, is fur trade based.
00:02:37.820 Whereas in Central America, Mexico, South America, a lot of it was looking for, it was Spanish and Portuguese and Dutch people looking for gold in what we now call the United States.
00:02:50.300 The colonization was a mixture of people, corn and tobacco plantations, and then also mixed with some English people who were religious refugees. 0.82
00:03:01.160 North is there. It's fur trade based because there's a lot of furry animals here because it gets cold.
00:03:07.820 So the Hudson's Bay Company established various trading posts.
00:03:11.480 And so they were working with the nearby indigenous people who traditionally had been doing hunting.
00:03:17.500 And so that was who they sort of contracted out to do a lot of the hunting to get the furs that they would then trade.
00:03:23.720 And so the people who are going to be looking at specifically in this story.
00:03:28.820 So there's the Cree people living in this.
00:03:32.260 The setting of the story is what would now be northern Manitoba.
00:03:37.820 Canada. Look that up on a map if you're not sure where that is. So there's the Dene people and
00:03:42.620 there's the Cree people. And the Hudson's Bay Company was mostly working with the Cree. And
00:03:48.340 we're going to, Rosalie is going to explain sort of the setting of the inter-tribal conflicts
00:03:53.060 between the Cree and the Dene. But this is part of what had happened is because of the Cree trading
00:03:59.520 with the Hudson's Bay Company, they had things like muskets. They had some other tools and things
00:04:04.060 that the Dene did not have because they were not involved in this trade. And so just kind of 0.95
00:04:09.500 setting the scene of what's going on. I know Canadian history is not well known to people
00:04:14.560 outside of Canada. So just sort of setting the scene. Rosalie, today's guest is such an incredible
00:04:19.620 storyteller. I really, she's going to walk us through the story and to Nelder and how remarkable
00:04:25.220 she really is. And I'm so excited for you to hear today's episode with special guest, very special
00:04:31.460 guest, Rosalie Tassani-Burseth, who I just want to mention also. She is a member of the Hatchet 0.99
00:04:37.100 Lake Disilne First Nation in Treaty 10 territory. Treaty 10 Canada, what we call Canada, there's a
00:04:45.340 variety of treaties that were made between the British and the various indigenous groups. Treaty
00:04:50.020 10 territory comprises much of Northern Saskatchewan and Northern Manitoba. So I'm based in Saskatoon,
00:04:57.720 And this is the first Saskatchewan-based guest I've had on the podcast.
00:05:04.020 And I'm so excited for you to hear this interview and to hear the storytelling of Rosalie Tssani-Bursas.
00:05:16.520 Okay, so today I'm joined by Rosalie Tssani-Bursas, and we're talking about the Nelder.
00:05:23.080 And I think you've explained to me, I think you are the expert on this story.
00:05:28.340 So I'm so glad to have you here to join me, Rosalie.
00:05:31.180 Thank you for coming on the podcast.
00:05:33.400 Thank you.
00:05:34.040 One of my favorite topics as a young girl is about her as I know that by all means,
00:05:39.480 I'm not the expert.
00:05:41.080 I've researched her in many forms, in many ways.
00:05:45.160 However, the elders hold that expert in their oral stories.
00:05:49.220 So I'm just one of the humble people who've picked it up along the way, because I really feel it's important for our young generation.
00:05:58.460 Well, and especially we're going to talk about, we're going to talk all about her, but she was a very young person herself.
00:06:04.140 So I think to show the strength and the power of a young woman, she's such an example of that.
00:06:11.200 Oh, that's for sure.
00:06:12.440 So my first question for you, just to set the scene for everybody.
00:06:16.420 so we're talking about 1715 around then and so what was the relationship at that time between
00:06:24.040 the Dene the Cree the Inuit and the Hudson's Bay Company at that time okay well her story began in
00:06:31.380 1713 however the relationship between the First Nations people as we call them now the Cree the
00:06:39.560 Dene and the Inuit the Inuit to the north the Dene kind of in the middle and the Cree in the south
00:06:46.060 So there were tribal wars at one time, even with the Dene as well, and the Inuit and the Cree. 0.96
00:06:54.860 And it's all for territorial wars, right? Inter-tribal, territorial wars, and also vying to trade with Hudson Bay.
00:07:05.440 So people were fighting, pushing each other out of the way.
00:07:10.080 The Dene were more or less sandwiched in the middle.
00:07:13.600 the Inuit to the north, and the Cree to the south.
00:07:17.660 And so, Tanelda, she's from the Dene people.
00:07:21.040 Can you explain the various names?
00:07:23.680 We just said, before we started recording,
00:07:25.400 you said there's various names that she was known by.
00:07:28.040 Different people from different regions have a say about her. 0.55
00:07:32.240 The Dene people in different regions want to take ownership of her.
00:07:35.540 However, just based on the research and the land, the locations and coordinates,
00:07:44.060 took me to near the shores of Hudson Bay north and west of that.
00:07:50.040 So we call her, well, first of all, the elders.
00:07:54.480 My father called her Nutsone, which means our grandmother. 0.83
00:08:00.660 Elders say it is because of her that Dene are still around today. 0.99
00:08:05.540 So we go Thijnaldur, which is drops of sand.
00:08:09.680 Some say Thijnaldur, something to do with the marten, the animal.
00:08:15.700 There's different names.
00:08:17.340 The slave woman peacemaker, she became to be known as a slave woman
00:08:23.520 because she was abducted, right?
00:08:26.160 So those are the different names that people have of her in the north,
00:08:30.260 I think, towards Northwest Territories, based on some of my books that I've read, they did
00:08:36.520 call her. The Stay Woman, the woman in red is also what she's called. So she comes with a lot of names.
00:08:46.320 Can you explain to everyone where you've been able to learn about her from? There's the journals
00:08:51.420 from the HBC, but then there's also the oral storytelling, right?
00:08:56.200 Yes, I began to hear about her when I was quite young, five or six years old.
00:09:01.800 My late parents and my grandparents talked about her, told stories about her.
00:09:07.440 And it's been in oral history for, I think, 307 years now.
00:09:13.220 And that's where I began to hear about her.
00:09:16.760 And years later, I didn't think I learned about it in high school,
00:09:21.320 But when I started university, then I really began to learn about her through the books.
00:09:26.340 But it's really limited.
00:09:27.860 And through the years, I've been learning a lot about her, Googling her, collecting stories about her.
00:09:34.340 So first of all, through oral history and then through the university books, any books that I can get my hand on about her.
00:09:44.020 And that's where I really appreciate you coming on the podcast, because a lot of I've been trying to learn about her as well myself.
00:09:50.300 And it's limited in terms of what I was able to find, so much of it.
00:09:55.000 And we learned from the HBC records, but when I came across your writing about the oral histories,
00:10:00.520 that really answered so many questions I had to understand more about who she was and what her life was like.
00:10:06.340 In the archives, there's a lot.
00:10:08.100 Because the company men had to write journals, right?
00:10:10.500 They talked about her, they, you know, like you and I are people writing in diaries, and that's what they did.
00:10:16.600 So I always felt that the oral component was never there.
00:10:22.400 So I wrote that article to combine both.
00:10:24.720 Hey, there's more than just the archives.
00:10:26.960 There's a rich oral history.
00:10:29.140 And the oral history is just so unique.
00:10:34.180 It's told in a way that sometimes it's comical.
00:10:38.340 Sometimes it just kind of makes a young child listening to an elder,
00:10:43.400 the mind just starts to race and how they when elders tell stories their stories are animated
00:10:49.420 they set the picture for you and you just develop that in your mind and it's just so unique
00:10:56.760 and that's why I wanted to I still I tell a lot of stories about her too I'm going to go forward
00:11:04.680 and write a book in my words about her and I think it's something that a lot of people we need to
00:11:10.340 instilled in the minds of Canadians as well, like who she was, because she's not really known.
00:11:17.000 That's why I was so happy to find you writing about it. I'm excited to hear
00:11:19.760 you're going to write a book because I do think her story is so important to the history of
00:11:24.940 the Dene, but also to the history of Canadian history. It's a story more people should know
00:11:29.700 about. That's for sure. So if we're looking at what we know about her, so the story that I've
00:11:36.580 encountered really begins when as a young girl she was captured by the cree can you explain
00:11:43.140 how that happened or what you know about why she was captured as i said earlier they had
00:11:48.600 inter-tribal wars and what they would do when they would raid camps when the denny people raided
00:11:55.920 for instance a cree or inuit camp there was no mercy they just totally wipe out wiped out the 0.93
00:12:03.780 whole encampment uh for the cree they would do similar but they they abducted young girls 0.94
00:12:12.880 especially if they were pleased into the eyes so you can tell this young young woman was beautiful
00:12:20.820 so she was captured in 1713 up around hudson bay area a little to northwest called chesterfield
00:12:29.500 Inlet in that area. Now it's called Arviet on the shores of Hudson Bay. So at the time what was
00:12:38.960 happening, as most Dene families would do, they were hunting. They were on a hunting party. So 1.00
00:12:46.040 she was believed to be about 13 or 14 years old when this abduction happened. So since she was
00:12:52.260 abducted she was held in captivity for about a year so just up hunting um doing the usual thing
00:13:01.320 and then this happened and she wasn't there were other people were captured at the same time there
00:13:07.660 was at least one other young woman who was there as well right yes so i believe the way she said
00:13:13.480 it was her cousin and a friend as well so two at the time that i know of and what do you know about
00:13:21.280 that year or so that she spent in captivity?
00:13:25.780 That part is not really documented
00:13:29.180 from the books of the Hudson Bay Archives
00:13:32.560 just when she came to York's factory.
00:13:36.140 But I know, according to James Houston's book,
00:13:40.240 who really studied the archives of the Hudson Bay
00:13:43.920 and formulated a photo, a mental snapshot
00:13:48.760 of what her life was like. 0.99
00:13:51.280 Any life as a slave is not usually good. 0.98
00:13:58.460 Both her friend and her cousin were sexually abused, physically abused,
00:14:04.580 and they were just there to work very hard, looking after the tent that they lived in.
00:14:13.520 They did a lot of physical work.
00:14:15.800 They did a lot of fishing and hunting and gathering.
00:14:17.780 They also made snowshoes. 0.96
00:14:21.260 Dene women and Korean women in which are really, really good at making warm clothing made out of animal fur. 1.00
00:14:29.760 So their roles were to do that. 1.00
00:14:31.960 And how he managed to keep them was to tie the girls to his feet.
00:14:39.000 So when they tried to escape, he would know long enough of a rope or twine that he had for them to go outside and relieve themselves.
00:14:50.620 But not very good. They're hungry.
00:14:53.500 Worked very, very hard.
00:14:55.880 And you just mentioned as well, this is kind of, she was first, when she was discovered by the HBC people,
00:15:02.420 was she had escaped from the Cree
00:15:04.320 and then she lived on her,
00:15:06.980 not on her own, I guess her friend is with her
00:15:08.640 for most of it, but just in the wild
00:15:10.380 for a very long time.
00:15:12.400 Was it one year
00:15:14.040 that she lived after the escape?
00:15:17.820 She lived
00:15:18.500 about a year after that, but
00:15:20.400 they know the land,
00:15:22.440 they know the way of the animal, they know
00:15:24.520 just very in tune
00:15:26.360 with their landscape and the environment
00:15:28.400 and their denny land that
00:15:29.880 they have the capability
00:15:31.500 ability to survive in that environment but it's worth about um a year that they were held in
00:15:38.480 captivity um i think almost a year and then they escaped do you know anything about how
00:15:46.320 they escaped or we can just imagine she was clever she found a way she knew that she wanted
00:15:54.080 to escape for quite a while and they were planning that but again this is where the two versions were
00:16:00.600 according to the archives
00:16:03.980 their capture was at a tribal meeting
00:16:07.760 and that's when they finally escaped
00:16:09.880 according to the Dene oral history
00:16:13.500 their version of it was
00:16:16.020 when the captor and the Cree
00:16:19.200 were going to Hudson Bay to trade
00:16:22.560 she snuck behind them
00:16:25.340 and was following them along
00:16:27.960 And she looked into what she said, which is what we call Churchill today or a stone house.
00:16:37.640 They looked in and they saw some strange people, which is their first encounter of white people.
00:16:45.540 But I'm going to be talking about this part a little later, her first experience with the Europeans.
00:16:51.600 So, yeah, it took about a year for them to formulate their escape. 0.95
00:16:58.560 And just to live in that environment, they were hungry all the time.
00:17:04.020 They were near starving.
00:17:06.000 They actually most likely went through the ice a few times.
00:17:09.900 And I think this would have been maybe in the cold of winter towards the spring
00:17:15.640 because it was in the spring when they stumbled upon the goose hunters
00:17:19.680 It was at 10 shillings near the Nelson River.
00:17:22.700 Her friend perished along the way just to come to their starvation.
00:17:28.480 So she was near death as well.
00:17:32.140 And so it was at this point where she was near death that she first encountered.
00:17:37.060 It was people goose hunting for the HBC.
00:17:40.180 Were those white men or those were Indigenous hunters?
00:17:44.840 They were both.
00:17:46.060 There were Europeans, I think, Totiné or Bonn-Lay.
00:17:50.200 They used the word Bonn-Lay in Dena means French.
00:17:54.080 At that time, too, the French and the English people were fighting as well.
00:18:01.040 So at that time when this happened, it was the English people that were at the fort when she came upon them with the Cree hunters.
00:18:12.880 And she, like I said earlier, she was starving.
00:18:16.940 Her clothing was really, really in rough shape.
00:18:20.600 And someone noticed they thought maybe it was an animal or then they realized it was a human.
00:18:27.660 So they picked her up and they took her to York factory now, York Fort, as we know today.
00:18:35.640 And they faced a lot of dangers, rivers and lots of storms and trying to survive.
00:18:41.360 in the elements of northern canada i keep thinking about that too just the northern canada in the in
00:18:49.660 the winter and even in the spring just the the weather and everything and what a challenge that
00:18:54.700 would be to someone in her situation who is starving whose her clothes are falling apart so
00:19:00.780 it's such luck that she was found when she was and then the people who found her took her in to help
00:19:07.140 her yeah like in today's age i'm a hunter i have caribou and we've hunted in the dead cold of
00:19:15.120 winter and for me uh when i'm out on the hunting trail i often think about her they had no
00:19:21.640 snowmobiles they had no wagons they had no dogs at the time and and how did she ever survive the
00:19:28.880 elements because it is cold out there you really have to know the land you have to know the wind
00:19:37.400 you have to know all aspects of elements to to survive and keep in mind that they weren't wearing
00:19:44.860 clothes like you and i wear today they were made um from animal furs that they used that's part of
00:19:51.980 where i just there's so much remarkable about her story but just the knowledge like you just said
00:19:58.020 that she would have had to know about the land and the wind
00:20:00.280 just to survive through those months on her own, largely,
00:20:04.060 without the sorts of winter clothes we would have right now
00:20:06.840 or electricity or, yeah.
00:20:10.140 And when I think about her, when she lost her family, of course,
00:20:14.240 in the raid and being held captive
00:20:17.460 and her friend who perished with her
00:20:20.900 and the little ceremony she did for her
00:20:24.120 and how she felt it's the will that she had within her that she had to survive it's just a
00:20:33.240 tremendous awesome story so we've reached the point now so she's been found she's been saved
00:20:39.460 really she's been rescued by people who are able to take her to a structure where she can be indoors
00:20:44.720 she can be fed and so this is her first interaction with with the europeans well everything was
00:20:51.460 strange for her. Keep in mind
00:20:53.440 she knew Kree already, right? 1.00
00:20:55.340 Kun had to 1.00
00:20:57.520 understand 1.00
00:20:58.280 Kree. So when she was taken 0.97
00:21:01.300 into York
00:21:02.780 for it, Governor James
00:21:05.380 Knight, she was
00:21:07.480 presented to him
00:21:09.600 and was trying to figure out who
00:21:11.440 she was because she was in a real
00:21:13.340 state at the time.
00:21:15.440 She was starving and she wasn't properly
00:21:17.420 clothed.
00:21:19.080 When she spoke, she spoke in
00:21:21.080 in Cree and also in Dene so the first thing the way we know Hudson Bay is oh good she's going to
00:21:28.160 be an asset for me so we're going to bring her back to life and and we're going to uh we're 1.00
00:21:34.080 going to make good use of her but she was a feisty little little woman five foot nothing 1.00
00:21:40.740 she could stand up to any now and to figure this out 300 years ago it was a man's world 0.99
00:21:49.540 And for her to rise above that, to stand against any man, a young woman who was five foot nothing. 0.91
00:21:58.080 I mean, just imagine that. 0.99
00:21:59.960 When she got to the fort there, they kind of cleaned her up and told stories.
00:22:07.780 And James Knight was more interested in her stories because she talked about gold and copper on her land.
00:22:15.380 So all these tales that he was interested in.
00:22:19.540 And this is where she began to formulate the idea, my people can have access to this, the Dene people.
00:22:28.160 So, and then going back to the question about first contact between the French and the English, the English, they were both fighting for the trading territory as well, and they were in competition at Hudson Bay, too.
00:22:42.760 And at the time that she came upon Hudson, Vegas with the English, the French were more or less told to leave at the time.
00:22:52.920 So, and according to my father, I never get tired of my parents telling me the story of her first contact with Europeans, more or less white people.
00:23:06.740 She was so astonished because she said when they were looking,
00:23:15.220 so either James Knight or William Stewart, one of them, must have had blue eyes.
00:23:21.920 Because she said they almost scared her.
00:23:25.920 It looked like there were eagles looking at me, and they were so deathly pale.
00:23:31.480 I thought they lacked blood or they were really hungry. 0.77
00:23:35.840 And so what she did was, because in her worldview at the time, her reality and her space, the Dene people had no guns or ammunition.
00:23:51.680 So she was telling the governor, saying the Cree people are killing my people.
00:23:58.460 You hear these loud icicles break and my people drop dead.
00:24:03.420 And she is describing the musket gun, so the sound of the gunshot is what she was.
00:24:15.760 And it was a whole new world for her.
00:24:20.680 So the goal of the Hudson Bear James Knight was for her to learn English because she spoke
00:24:28.280 Cree already. And they had this plan for her to do this peace journey.
00:24:37.200 And so this part of what she saw there was the tools that the Europeans had that they had been
00:24:41.960 sharing with the Cree. And she saw, oh, these could be helpful for the Dene.
00:24:45.680 Yeah, well, she was in captivity. She noticed the Cree women were using pots and knives and 0.95
00:24:51.360 utensils and 1.00
00:24:52.800 it seemed
00:24:55.600 well when she saw that their lives
00:24:57.400 were easier and her
00:24:58.480 captor also had these tools
00:25:01.560 that they could use and it was
00:25:03.500 strange for them but
00:25:05.080 it was easier for them
00:25:07.540 to work with and what she
00:25:09.540 also wanted for her people
00:25:11.500 was peace and also to live
00:25:13.660 in peace and to make their lives
00:25:15.340 easier so
00:25:16.900 this is where I think easier
00:25:19.100 from what may be from
00:25:20.740 escaping or hiding all the time in inter-tribal wars,
00:25:26.100 but her goal was to make their lives easier,
00:25:30.960 to make it easier for the hunters, for the guns, 1.00
00:25:34.600 and also for the Dene women.
00:25:36.800 And that's all she started formulating when she was held in captivity,
00:25:41.160 and she saw that at the Hudson Bay as well. 0.96
00:25:45.040 So the Dene people had no guns. 1.00
00:25:48.120 They used spears. 1.00
00:25:49.400 they were made by wood
00:25:51.420 and carved arrow
00:25:53.320 heads to hunt
00:25:55.580 so 0.99
00:25:56.480 the Kree talked about 0.99
00:25:58.920 how they were deathly afraid of 1.00
00:26:01.040 the Dene and likewise the Dene 1.00
00:26:03.240 to the Kree because they had
00:26:04.820 this magic thing that 0.89
00:26:07.080 cracked and people died
00:26:08.920 however when you think about it
00:26:11.320 you have to load it up right 1.00
00:26:13.280 but the Kree people said 1.00
00:26:15.140 well I better hurry up because I'll be dead 1.00
00:26:17.160 in a minute because they're
00:26:19.400 The way they hunted, they were very powerful people and deadly accurate in their target with these spears.
00:26:26.020 So I just thought it was such an interesting concept how they were in an element where they feared each other so much.
00:26:37.820 I really appreciate how you've described it and what I've read about her is that she really wanted to better the life for all of her people.
00:26:46.080 even while she was in captivity she was seeing these things and she thought not just how can I
00:26:50.980 escape but how can I escape and bring this technology back how can I help other people
00:26:57.240 I think that's very admirable too and then just and when you said that it's the will to live
00:27:03.940 to make sure at some point her people's lives are going to be easier yeah it's that sort of
00:27:11.240 community, that sort of sense of selflessness. I find that so admirable. So she saw that there
00:27:17.480 were these tools here. She's at Fort York, York factory with HBC. They think, okay, if we teach
00:27:26.340 her English, she can help us with these peace talks as a translator. And she does. She learns
00:27:30.760 English. She's clearly very good at picking up languages. And you read into the book that she's
00:27:36.500 really feisty right just a very determined young person very smart very smart so so much about her
00:27:44.580 is already so just so impressive and she's such like you said she's five foot tall tiny person
00:27:50.180 at this point she's what 15 16 years old yes 13 about 15 between 15 and 16 with such a strength
00:27:59.660 of character it's so impressive she's a nurse back to health by the company and there's a pretty
00:28:05.940 woman they she kind of looked after her and and the governor and this is the story that my my my
00:28:13.500 parents and elders told me was okay tell her to go find herself something a cloth so we can make 0.96
00:28:21.260 garments for her so she chose red because she thought okay red looks like blood right she said
00:28:32.420 when i start looking for my people i'm going to say to them i'm wearing red i am sign out there
00:28:38.840 i'm here looking for you and she said i want my people to to see me from a long distance you know
00:28:46.220 that mirage you see on the cold day or on the hot day over the lake and it looks like the even the
00:28:53.660 islands are lifting up right and she explained that to when i'm running across the big lake
00:28:59.940 I want them to see this blob of red going.
00:29:04.120 And maybe they'll understand that it's me.
00:29:06.660 But at the same time, I'm going to call out to them.
00:29:09.800 And this is the part of the history that's not written down.
00:29:13.160 And they were hard to find.
00:29:14.760 And she was in Dene country, so she knew.
00:29:19.000 And this is in between the wars, inter-tribal wars.
00:29:23.880 So the Dene were really in constant hiding.
00:29:27.900 Well, and this brings us to the peace mission. 0.93
00:29:31.480 When she had picked up some more English, then she was brought with them to try and find the Dene. 0.74
00:29:38.980 Is that correct? 0.93
00:29:39.840 To try and explain, to try and find peace so they could work together with the HBC.
00:29:45.620 And now we're just going to take a break for a word from our sponsors. 0.99
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00:32:06.900 Maloof in this world. Listen to Turtle Time on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your
00:32:12.580 podcasts. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. And we're back. Yes, Governor James Knight
00:32:19.640 delegated William Stewart to lead this expedition, but she just took over. According to the archives,
00:32:27.200 this is when the expedition was brueling. It's a walk-in. They walked about 600 miles. So this
00:32:36.560 A paced journey started early morning of June 27th, and it was almost a year when they came back, May 5th, 1716. 0.97
00:32:46.880 But along the journey, they were faced with many challenges, again, starvation, again, the elements and the reluctance of the Kree to move any further when they knew they were in Dene territory. 0.88
00:33:03.380 So as they were going along in today, it would be around the mountain. 0.98
00:33:11.560 So when they came to that area, they came upon a camp of nine Dene that were massacred.
00:33:21.420 And William Stewart taught, and this is according to all the books that I've read, 0.99
00:33:26.120 okay, this is the end of the peace journey.
00:33:29.060 This is the end of it, because a group of Cree that were ahead massacred this camp, and she realized it was part of her family as well.
00:33:40.220 So there was lots of fear at that time.
00:33:45.320 So they thought, OK, this is the end.
00:33:47.760 We're not going to go any further.
00:33:51.740 So William Stewart was willing to turn back.
00:33:56.720 and the tree because the tree said we're not going anywhere you will not talk us to go any 0.97
00:34:02.320 further because we're going to be killed for sure so this is when this feisty little woman girl
00:34:09.480 said can you give me 10 days just 10 days i'll go by myself and i'm going to go find my people
00:34:18.480 by 10 days i will be back did you hear that i will be back she didn't say i may be back
00:34:25.320 But they doubted her, that this wasn't going to happen.
00:34:28.680 So just give me that time.
00:34:31.260 And she was so persuasive, and they agreed, and they relented and said,
00:34:36.580 okay, we're going to give you 10 days.
00:34:38.500 No more.
00:34:39.300 After 10 days, we're leaving.
00:34:40.720 We're heading south because we're in territory that we're really uncomfortable with. 0.99
00:34:46.740 And this is where the Dene oral history kicks in.
00:34:53.180 Because that part is not documented.
00:34:54.880 said remember she's journeying by herself so and she puts on her red her garment and she she goes
00:35:03.340 out and she knows her area because then people know the landscape they know the stars the
00:35:09.380 cosmology they know all that the the wind and the direction and or navigation um they've done that
00:35:17.980 for hundreds of years, so she knew the people in the area.
00:35:23.520 And as she's going along, she had her garment on.
00:35:27.820 She's by herself on snowshoes, just her.
00:35:30.800 So she didn't stop and pretend like we would today.
00:35:36.300 She was totally on her own in the winter.
00:35:40.800 And as she's going along, she said,
00:35:42.840 If anybody can hear me, can you hear me?
00:35:48.820 I am looking for you.
00:35:52.280 I have some gifts for you.
00:35:54.680 It'll make your life easier if you could hear me, please.
00:36:00.120 We're negotiating peace so we don't have to live in fear.
00:36:03.900 And she kept saying that over and over and over again.
00:36:06.660 So at some point, someone heard them.
00:36:10.220 And again, this is stories from the elders heard them.
00:36:12.840 And they said, we keep hearing someone calling out.
00:36:17.160 It was two young men.
00:36:18.580 There were runners to go ahead or to go back.
00:36:22.500 Strong young men were really fast.
00:36:24.680 They would run ahead if they were sourcing out danger.
00:36:28.360 So, and these two runners came back to the camp and said, we keep hearing this woman
00:36:34.400 and saying she's, I know her and we don't, she doesn't see us, but we've seen her.
00:36:40.940 And she's calling out saying, I'm looking for my people.
00:36:43.820 If you could hear me, what do we do?
00:36:45.740 The elder said, oh, my God, that's Hanoza.
00:36:49.600 We lost her a few years ago, and she's still alive.
00:36:53.680 So this cat knew her as well.
00:36:58.280 And so the young guys were instructed to go back where they may have heard her, because there would be a certain trail.
00:37:06.320 I mean, trails aren't everywhere.
00:37:08.060 and that's a certain trail that they travel.
00:37:11.640 But mind you, at the time of war,
00:37:13.380 you'd have to hide your tracks
00:37:14.840 because you don't want other people to find your tracks
00:37:17.820 because they can source each other out
00:37:20.460 to create the Denny or the Inuit.
00:37:22.160 So they were instructed,
00:37:23.500 okay, go back, sit under a drift.
00:37:27.700 So when the snow drifts, it's huge, right?
00:37:30.240 In some areas.
00:37:31.980 So they were told to sit there and wait for her.
00:37:34.660 Do not say anything.
00:37:36.320 So they did that.
00:37:37.360 and they were waiting and finally they heard her again i've signed out i'm looking for you
00:37:45.160 i have some stuff to make your life easier please don't be afraid i'm here to help you
00:37:51.960 so as she got closer these two young men just kind of jumped up in front of her because they
00:37:58.880 were told who she was already so and it really frightened her because you know your own people
00:38:06.300 don't jump up in front of you and just out of nowhere so she kind of uh fainted and when she
00:38:14.180 came to when she came to she felt better she told him what she was doing i'm here looking for my
00:38:22.400 people i'm looking for peace i'm looking to make your life easier i don't want no more people my
00:38:28.980 people dying can we live in peace that's all i want so they took her back to the camp so because
00:38:35.780 She's been walking by now maybe five days and calling out her people.
00:38:42.400 She lost her voice.
00:38:43.960 It was really hoarse.
00:38:45.620 And they asked, why is your voice hoarse?
00:38:48.080 Well, because I've been calling to my people.
00:38:50.020 I want my people to hear me.
00:38:51.960 She was so happy beside herself that she was reunited with her family and friends.
00:38:57.060 She just cried and said, you know, I'm here to help you.
00:39:05.040 please don't be afraid don't run so they were afraid of course and and she said we have to
00:39:11.760 make peace we have to make peace with the creed so that was really uncomfortable for them because 0.70
00:39:18.420 they're enemies right so she managed to talk them into going back with them and 0.54
00:39:27.400 And she took back about 100 of her people, and it took about five days to walk back. 0.99
00:39:35.580 So in the meantime, the campus, William Stewart and the Cree were getting a little impatient, especially the Cree. 1.00
00:39:43.180 We have to get out of here. 1.00
00:39:44.140 It's the 10th day she's not here.
00:39:45.500 This is in the morning.
00:39:46.920 They said, we're going to go.
00:39:48.340 And then Stewart said, no, no, no, just hang on.
00:39:51.440 We'll wait.
00:39:52.480 Just give me a couple more hours.
00:39:54.800 So, and then William, according to the book, it says I think he was in love with her.
00:40:01.600 And some elders have said that as well, but I don't know where that story goes.
00:40:07.040 So it was 10 days. 0.85
00:40:10.200 And right at the very last minute, the Kriya were beginning to, were beginning to, sorry, I get this way every time I tell a story. 0.92
00:40:22.020 at the very last minute it's epic very last moment lo and behold over the hill she comes 0.81
00:40:31.800 and uh william stewart said i knew it i knew it i trust her i know i know i knew she was going to
00:40:39.080 do this so for me it's a moment in history and history for the dene in history for heads and
00:40:45.420 bane history for powerful woman in the world that this young five foot nothing brave girl 0.86
00:40:54.900 brings her people so with the timing of this legendary hero uh she just made her appearance 1.00
00:41:04.440 just like that like in the movies right i know that's what i was thinking she said 10 days and
00:41:09.460 they thought oh she's not coming and then at the last minute here she is yeah here she is
00:41:15.220 and a few of the books you know in our terrain up north the trees are small
00:41:20.620 the uh down south the trees are taller up north so they knew like cam flosh right
00:41:29.160 she said well we're you're you said you bring your people they're here with me
00:41:33.860 and uh she called out to them can you guys come out come out of the trees and they were so amazed 1.00
00:41:41.100 out of the forest came the denny people to say you know they know how to hide right
00:41:47.120 and uh and she and that's that's how she got her people there and sure enough the 10 days um 0.95
00:41:57.380 I know, 307 years ago or more, you know, that determination, the will to live, the will for peace, the will, you know, to create, you know, what she did.
00:42:16.260 It's just really astounding for me when I think about it, when the elders tell me.
00:42:22.260 That's why I never get tired of hearing about her.
00:42:26.600 And every time I talk about the epic moments, I get that way.
00:42:30.680 So I have passion for it, yes.
00:42:33.380 Well, and I love that she's such a hero for, and her goal is peace,
00:42:37.380 because often in many cultures, warriors are celebrated,
00:42:41.800 people who are very successful at fighting.
00:42:44.500 But she's a hero for peace.
00:42:46.600 And this story just shows that those stories are just as impressive.
00:42:50.700 I love it when you said hero for peace.
00:42:53.200 So she's got everybody together, and then there's the actual peace talks.
00:42:57.620 And what can you tell us about how that went?
00:43:00.280 Just based on the elders and based on the archives,
00:43:04.140 it's a setup where they're going to do peace talks with the peace pipe.
00:43:08.700 And she was really persuasive.
00:43:10.640 You know, she could overpower anyone,
00:43:13.040 despite her demeanor, whether it's her people or the decree,
00:43:16.280 whether it's William Stewart.
00:43:17.360 or and and then the picture is that both groups are really afraid of each other right they fear
00:43:23.580 each other and there were tense moments and what she does that they're um they have this peace talk
00:43:29.600 they're sitting down they have peace pipes and then she felt her people were not responding
00:43:35.300 so she just started to get a little angry she started to berate her people and she kept saying
00:43:41.560 i want peace i don't want any of you to die anymore and this is a quote that i really like
00:43:47.840 and i'm just going to repeat it quote do you want to live like hunted rabbits do you want the
00:43:54.460 constant threat of war she was enraged and frustrated because no one was making the first
00:43:59.600 move she just wanted peace and alter stepped her feet and discussed whirling around she ran back 0.94
00:44:06.980 grabbed the woman by the coats and pulled them out of the trees into the clear. 0.93
00:44:12.260 Do you want war or peace? She pleaded.
00:44:14.600 Do you want sharp knives and guns that mean your children will never go hungry again?
00:44:20.340 This is from book, end quote.
00:44:22.900 So she really wanted that and she made it clear that that was her mission.
00:44:31.420 Because she lived with the trees, she was held captive.
00:44:34.860 She lived with them at the Forge.
00:44:37.440 The best thing for everyone was for peace, not only for commercialism, but for peace.
00:44:43.880 And she would have been probably the only person there who had lived in all three worlds
00:44:48.700 and who knew all those languages.
00:44:50.740 So she had a different perspective as well, I think.
00:44:53.760 Oh, she did.
00:44:54.780 She knew the ways of her people.
00:44:56.520 She knew the ways of her decree because she lived with them for about a year.
00:45:02.560 And then she was at the Forge as well.
00:45:05.500 She learned the ways of the Europeans there as well.
00:45:09.340 So she had the different perspectives of each group.
00:45:14.840 And she took advantage of her, of all that, to her benefit and for her people.
00:45:21.900 And she must have seen also how she could imagine these groups working in peace.
00:45:26.480 She would have seen what they had in common, how this could work.
00:45:30.800 And that's maybe part of where her determination came from.
00:45:33.800 She knew that this was possible.
00:45:36.380 Mm-hmm.
00:45:37.460 It was possible.
00:45:39.220 She was going to make it work no matter what. 0.97
00:45:42.720 But it stood up to the Cree and William Wallace, 0.95
00:45:46.380 stood up to William Stewart many times, and James Knight.
00:45:49.780 I think he berated her once, but she still stood her ground.
00:45:54.260 And then the end result of this was what she wanted.
00:45:57.780 The peace talks were successful, right?
00:46:00.320 It was successful, yes, as well.
00:46:04.540 The goal of Hudson Bay was, I know, people are going to trade there without fearing for their lives.
00:46:11.220 And the Hudson Bay, of course, you know, commercialism, capitalism, you know, they wanted all the furs traded at their fort, right?
00:46:19.000 And then this also, for her people, for the Dene, having that relationship between them and the HBC, this would also mean income.
00:46:28.600 and it would improve the way of life of them as well, right?
00:46:32.980 Yeah, for sure, yes.
00:46:34.780 But then I made a statement earlier about from what, right?
00:46:38.920 It was a way of life for thousands of years for them.
00:46:41.860 So bringing her people out of that into commercialism, 0.93
00:46:48.440 that's a beginning, the change of life for their lives for the Dene.
00:46:55.020 and so with the success of this mission and this is where the story gets sad but because she does
00:47:03.520 get sick but what was her next mission going to be now that she had proven herself there was plans
00:47:10.580 for her to do more of this sort of work wasn't there there was plans for her to go further she
00:47:16.140 did talk about gold and copper right she talked about that so james knight formulated thinking
00:47:22.180 that okay we're gonna create another expedition to go to go further north for further north and
00:47:30.200 west so this would be towards the copper mine so it does what she talked about and
00:47:35.940 samuel hearn if you read his books his third attempt he finally got there so that's like
00:47:41.500 about 80 years later so in between the talking and preparing for this expedition
00:47:49.260 and she caught, the ship came in and she got sick.
00:47:54.880 Something her body couldn't handle, whatever it was, European ailment of some kind
00:48:00.580 and her body just could not handle it.
00:48:04.480 So she was sick for about two days and it was a sad day at Fort York
00:48:10.640 with James Knight and William Stewart when she passed away.
00:48:14.740 It was February 5th, 1717.
00:48:19.200 I was just going to say, and they wrote about how devastated they were to lose her.
00:48:23.580 It's still in many quotes, in many books, they were all devastated.
00:48:26.900 Even on her sick bed, she took a young lad and taught him Denny and taught him Norton was the last name.
00:48:38.400 And he was instrumental with Samuel Hearn as well to go further, to go on this expedition, what to expect, what to do on her deathbed.
00:48:49.560 She wanted to make sure this was done.
00:48:51.840 So he was so devastated that he wanted to, in her honor, build a fort in her name where her people can trade without fear.
00:49:04.620 So this is the fort in the York factory up in Churchill.
00:49:11.240 It's a museum now.
00:49:13.020 I've been there, have seen it.
00:49:14.640 So it's just awesome to think and look at that stone structure
00:49:18.660 and how she was instrumental with that.
00:49:22.220 And it was his gift in her name when she passed away
00:49:25.780 that he promised that something would be built in her honor.
00:49:31.680 I really appreciate that.
00:49:32.820 I love when people are commemorated in that way that is so appropriate for what their work was and for who they were.
00:49:41.680 So just to commemorate her and her importance to the trade and to the peace with that structure.
00:49:49.000 So I've been to Churchill, Manitoba a few times.
00:49:51.300 I've been to the fort.
00:49:52.440 I've been in the community as well.
00:49:55.160 So what I've done, it was in 2017, I think, I told a little bit about it.
00:50:06.340 It was 300 years of her passing that I just wanted to find out who was commemorating her.
00:50:13.380 So I called Churchill, Manitoba, and they said I should phone Parks Canada there, York Court, or Patrick.
00:50:22.380 and said so I dialed that number it was December 18th about 4 30 4 45 before I was gonna go on
00:50:32.540 Christmas holidays so I phoned there and and I remember Mike with his name picked up and said
00:50:38.260 hi my name is Mike how are you and I had to talk faster explain myself I said I've done a research
00:50:45.280 I'm Denny from northern Saskatchewan I can make sure I find out what Churchill is doing to
00:50:51.600 commemorates an altar for 30 years of her memory being there and he said this oh my god oh my god
00:51:03.260 oh my god i said what he said just 10 minutes ago we had a meeting here at parks canada think and i
00:51:10.500 wonder if anybody out there dene would be interested in being a part of 300 year celebration or if
00:51:17.260 there's even any interest.
00:51:19.680 Exactly 10 minutes later, you call, he said.
00:51:22.940 She was guiding me.
00:51:25.580 So as a result, we planned the trip
00:51:29.240 and we brought many people there.
00:51:31.040 We had our drums, we were outfitted in red.
00:51:35.840 And that happened in July.
00:51:37.920 We even had a little, the students did a skit on her.
00:51:43.780 So when I was there in Churchill,
00:51:45.280 there was a little monument
00:51:47.540 or a Karen that's called
00:51:49.360 Way Out of the Way
00:51:51.660 and I thought 1.00
00:51:53.620 she shouldn't be out of the way 1.00
00:51:55.840 in Trichel, she should be right
00:51:57.400 in the middle
00:51:57.960 and there's one street
00:52:00.980 that's named after her
00:52:03.120 is what it's called
00:52:05.300 so I got to know the people there
00:52:07.520 in the Saizidene who were
00:52:09.140 traditionally from that area and we talked
00:52:11.540 and then
00:52:13.460 and I did
00:52:15.120 of course said that you know she's way up there i don't think she should be i think we should
00:52:19.820 bring her a little closer into town so so i have a really good relationship with churchill
00:52:24.420 and a couple years ago they phoned me again to say would you like to come to churchill
00:52:31.960 we're going to rename our park it's called hudson hudson uh park i think
00:52:38.340 that it's so yeah Hudson Park and we want to change it to a final we still have that huge plaque
00:52:48.280 when you came here and we want to move it there would you like to come of course I didn't say
00:52:53.720 anything for a couple of minutes I said I would love to so they renamed that park after her so
00:52:58.940 she's right in the center of Churchill yes that's I love that she's being celebrated still today and
00:53:06.400 And I love that you've been her champion in this.
00:53:10.880 There's just a few scholars as well who are working under who are Dene.
00:53:15.100 But we talk back and forth and build each other up.
00:53:18.900 And if anyone phones me about, can you tell me about Hennel?
00:53:23.140 I say, of course.
00:53:24.980 What do you want to know?
00:53:26.260 Like you did for me very graciously.
00:53:29.240 Yes.
00:53:29.680 Can you explain, in your opinion, her importance to the Dene people?
00:53:36.400 Like you mentioned before, one of the ways she's known is as our grandmother.
00:53:40.580 How is she seen within the Dene community?
00:53:44.400 They have Pocahontas, they have Cinderella, kind of that concept.
00:53:50.520 Just, I don't know whether it should be a hero or it should be a legend.
00:53:56.520 People kind of debate questions like that.
00:53:58.740 But for us, we never really debate.
00:54:01.040 In our minds, it's Sainalda.
00:54:02.580 You know, she's someone who just created a good life for us.
00:54:09.120 So by doing that, we keep her memory alive in our oral storytelling because it's in the minds of me.
00:54:16.180 And I pass it on to my children.
00:54:18.220 I'm never quiet about her.
00:54:20.460 And, of course, elders, they're willing to talk.
00:54:24.820 What we do February 5th to commemorate her is we wear red.
00:54:30.260 we have storytelling take a day aside where we talk about her and it's picking up momentum now
00:54:36.840 um it wasn't really i just feel now it's starting to happen but we need to do we need to do a lot
00:54:43.020 a lot more well and i think what you how you've explained her importance as well throughout the
00:54:48.560 story is she by bringing the piece that really improved the quality of life for so many people
00:54:54.860 But then also introducing the tools, like that is what allowed the Deni people to stop just hiding and to find a new way to live so that the community and the culture could continue on.
00:55:07.380 The elders in many of the books that I've read, one elder who's gone now, I'm about to say, you know, says, 0.96
00:55:14.260 We live our lives now because she saved us.
00:55:22.140 This little tiny girl. 0.95
00:55:24.820 Yes, five foot nothing.
00:55:26.060 They even described her. 0.99
00:55:28.120 Yeah.
00:55:28.800 What she looked like.
00:55:29.820 There's no known picture.
00:55:31.920 I was told, I'm still looking into it,
00:55:34.280 that there may be a sketch of her in the Hudson Bay archives in London, England.
00:55:39.300 Okay.
00:55:40.320 There's no photograph.
00:55:41.140 So when they describe her, it's this five foot, long black hair,
00:55:47.300 doe-like eyes, high cheekbones, broad nose, full lips.
00:55:52.860 so i've tried to get little people to draw it for me i just feel it's just gonna get on i'm still
00:55:59.920 gonna do that because there's a description of her yes and beautiful beautiful and smart and
00:56:09.200 just resilient the surviving like she did so many things the being captured and then living on her
00:56:16.380 own everything yeah and then you're right like the impact she had and she died probably when
00:56:25.220 she was between 16 or 17 in her short life what she accomplished and that's what i think you
00:56:31.720 mentioned i forget if it was before i started recording or not but just sharing her story
00:56:35.640 with the young people and i think showing here's a young person and look what she did
00:56:39.280 yeah and so i think i know how you're going to answer this question but on a scale of zero to
00:56:47.680 10 how significant do you think she was to history okay why 10
00:56:53.980 i feel like exactly i was gonna say 10 plus yeah yeah so very significant she made history
00:57:04.020 She was a brave young woman, not only against Hudson Bay or the elements that were on the land or the Cree.
00:57:13.260 She was very brave.
00:57:14.520 She just stood her ground.
00:57:15.940 I mean, can you imagine 300 years ago when men, you know, still ruled? 0.95
00:57:23.720 And she just kind of came out of the oral history and the books of Hudson Bay, just this icy little lady who walks out of the realm of our history.
00:57:37.760 Remarkable young woman who exhibited and earned prestige in her role as a negotiator.
00:57:43.700 Very intelligent woman.
00:57:45.800 She demonstrated knowledge of the land.
00:57:48.520 She spoke linguistic abilities.
00:57:50.860 She spoke different languages.
00:57:53.720 and immense leadership skills by navigating this mission.
00:57:58.880 She's a peacemaker. 1.00
00:58:00.200 She was called a slave. 1.00
00:58:01.660 We changed her to a peacemaker now. 0.99
00:58:03.580 She's a businesswoman, negotiator, 0.99
00:58:05.640 Martin Sheik, or she comes from the Martin clan.
00:58:13.260 And we asked the question, why did she pick red?
00:58:16.460 So look at it now in today, Missing and Murdered Woman.
00:58:20.880 It's red, you know.
00:58:22.580 i just i always get goosebumps when i see that because that was happening 0.88
00:58:26.840 missing and murdered women for many many many years and she just for whatever of her beauty
00:58:35.180 and her skills you know she was made to live i was thinking about that too when when we first
00:58:41.280 spoke and you mentioned her connection to the color red and i thought oh that yeah the connection
00:58:46.180 with the red dress for the missing and murdered indigenous women and the fact that she was
00:58:50.200 captured as well like this yeah it's her story is so many connections to to nowadays so it's
00:58:58.200 i love what you've said about how she's getting momentum like the movement to commemorate her
00:59:03.400 and to remember her because i think it is so many parallels to today beautiful story and my next
00:59:11.240 submission is um i'd like to have her in the motion picture i can see how it's going to start
00:59:18.280 let's see how it's going to end it's such a it would be such a great movie just even the way
00:59:24.640 you told it her appearing at the last minute on day 10 in her red coat i mean i can imagine the
00:59:31.420 music swells and yeah oh my god i'd get choked up again i honestly and i always get choked up at
00:59:41.500 that point i do it's such a passion for me you know do you have any any final thoughts you want
00:59:48.820 to share about her or her story i think regarding her story is that we continue to keep her
00:59:56.680 character going i know we will i know we will but i i also believe that more people need to
01:00:02.980 understand that there were people with uh immense leadership skills you know a young woman 300 years
01:00:11.240 ago um the story about hudson bay the story about canada you know um people people need to know that
01:00:19.900 she had she contributed a lot into well canada the beginning of canada and she needs to be
01:00:29.000 appreciated people need to appreciate stories like that there's women i even a young man from
01:00:35.980 parts of canada wrote me a letter saying i filled out this application let's get it going to have
01:00:41.320 to have her name or her photo on a 10 10 bill whatever but there's no photo of her yeah
01:00:50.540 yeah but yeah i think something like that just to commemorate and to celebrate as as the peacemaker
01:00:58.020 i think is such a powerful thing no it is very powerful every time i talk about it i just feel
01:01:05.860 more empowered i'm really i'm so honored that you came on my podcast to help share this story
01:01:12.380 because there's people who are going to listen to this from there's listeners in canada but also
01:01:17.120 all around the world and so now a bunch more people are going to know about her story and i'm
01:01:21.720 i could never have told it myself i needed to bring you on to to share the story yeah oh i
01:01:28.720 appreciate that and i'm so happy you found that article but there's still be more and i'll keep
01:01:34.740 an eye out for those as well thank you so much for joining me well thank you Anne
01:01:39.520 so I mentioned at the beginning that I and I'm so grateful that I just a search one day I came
01:01:50.680 across this paper that Rosalie wrote about the nail dirt in I think 2022 as part of her PhD
01:01:58.440 program that she was on at that time and so that paper itself I was able to see it and you can also
01:02:04.660 because it is available on the internet. You don't need to belong to a university to be able
01:02:09.780 to read it. And the link to that is included in the show notes. In that paper, there's also many
01:02:15.100 of Rosalie's references, which I'm also going to list in our show notes as well, because she's done
01:02:20.800 so much research on this topic and who better to explain further reading that other people can do
01:02:26.320 about the Nalder, this remarkable woman who I'm so glad and happy to be able to share her story
01:02:32.800 with everybody. Now you probably noticed when I was doing the interview that at the end I asked
01:02:38.300 Rosalie for her to help out with scoring the Nelder. Um, if we were going to, I got her to
01:02:44.400 weigh in on the significance scale for the women who we profile on this podcast, there's four 0.98
01:02:49.400 different categories in which we score them on the scandalousness scale. And I just didn't get
01:02:55.520 around to asking Rosalie for the other, the other category. So I'm going to grade them myself as I
01:03:00.640 think the scores she might have given so the first category that we score people on is scandalous
01:03:06.900 scandalousness how scandalous were they seen in their lifetime how scandalous are they seen now
01:03:13.320 and i'm gonna say a zero for the elder i think she was a stand-up upright admirable person nothing
01:03:21.720 she did was seen as scandalous maybe even if people who thought like oh you're you're working 0.59
01:03:28.340 to find peace. You're working with the HBC. Even if people thought that was scandalous at the time,
01:03:35.880 she talked them around to realizing that like, no, this is actually what's best for everyone.
01:03:39.920 So I'm going to say a zero for scandalous for her. For scheminess, which in the context of
01:03:45.340 this podcast just means how smart, how clever, how resilient was this person. And I think this
01:03:50.420 is a 10 out of 10 for an elder. I think her ability to survive in a variety of circumstances
01:03:56.020 that she found herself in like first being captured being able to successfully escape
01:04:00.400 then being able to survive on her own in the cold in the wilderness just really shows
01:04:05.620 she had good instincts of what to do and when and then her scheminess in a positive way really 0.98
01:04:12.500 comes into play when she sees she noticed the tools that the Kree had she noticed the tools
01:04:17.660 that were on the HBC and thinking about ways that she that could be to the benefit of her community 0.83
01:04:22.360 and i mean everything you just heard this episode like the way the peace talks that she should go
01:04:27.760 for like 10 out of 10 for scheminess she knew what she was doing she was so smart her significance 0.95
01:04:33.660 rosalie gave her 10 if you know more than 10 if possible and then the final category on the scale 0.97
01:04:39.740 for this podcast is the sexism bonus which is where we look at how much more could this person
01:04:44.340 have accomplished if not for sexism and i think like so many other people on this podcast the
01:04:50.420 sexism she faced um is so interconnected with other things like being from the dene community
01:04:56.680 um who were in constant conflict with the cree and then also the english were there too there
01:05:03.500 is so much men really rule things as rosalie said a couple things in this episode but she stood up
01:05:09.660 to them and was respected so that sort of like sexism wasn't working against her there but at
01:05:17.160 the same time she was captured and taken into seemingly um sexual slavery which is a young man
01:05:25.420 might not have had that same situation so i'm gonna say for sexism bonus i'm gonna give i'm
01:05:33.020 gonna say seven so this gives her an overall score of 27 out of 40 which we've we've talked
01:05:41.260 about so many people on this podcast but she's she's up there with so many remarkable people
01:05:45.800 And I'm just pleased to have her on this list at all as just a person who's been on
01:05:50.200 this podcast.
01:05:51.140 Again, you can probably tell I'm, I'm so happy that I was able to get Rosalie in the
01:05:57.480 podcast to tell this story because no one could have told it like her.
01:06:01.320 And it's, I'm really proud to, to be able to share the story with all of you.
01:06:05.980 So you can all learn a bit about this important lesser known person from Canadian history.
01:06:12.040 and so next week there's going to be another episode also taking place on technically
01:06:19.500 the north american continent i guess i'll say like last week we were talking about matoka aka
01:06:25.960 pocahontas who lived in what is now the united states this week we're talking about the nelder
01:06:31.220 who lived in what is now canada and next week we're going to be talking about people who lived
01:06:35.560 in what was then and is still known as Mexico.
01:06:40.100 So that's next week's episode.
01:06:41.540 And just to remind you of all the things
01:06:43.620 about this podcast and the vulgar history world
01:06:47.580 and things you can be doing to further engage
01:06:50.840 if that's what you wanna do.
01:06:52.280 So I do have a sub-stack newsletter
01:06:53.940 that I've been doing every week
01:06:55.360 and posting an essay about.
01:06:58.360 At the moment, we're looking at women from Tudor history
01:07:00.940 in a series called Tudor, I Hardly Knew Her.
01:07:03.580 And so we worked our way through
01:07:04.460 all of the six wives of henry the eighth at the moment i'm looking at the tudor matriarchs margaret
01:07:09.120 beaufort and elizabeth woodville and next i think i might do the sisters of henry the eighth margaret
01:07:14.060 and mary tudor so just you can subscribe to that it's at vulgar history sub stack.com
01:07:19.560 the link is in the notes or that's where i am if you're on there you can also support the podcast
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01:07:41.260 at things like vulgar peace theater where i talk about costume dramas with allison epstein and
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01:07:51.900 of the wolf which in terms of representation of indigenous characters that's a whole conversation
01:07:56.980 to be had about that film um the next one is the road to wellville which i think should be coming
01:08:03.000 out shortly at the time you're hearing this uh i also have various other bonus episodes on there
01:08:08.580 the after show and some other things if you want to listen to just specific of the patreon exclusive
01:08:13.800 episodes you can just buy one episode instead of having to become a patreon member although
01:08:18.200 and i know people are doing this and i just want to let you know like i support you in this you
01:08:22.540 can always join the patron for a month listen to what you want and then leave like totally fine
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01:08:32.380 I don't think any sort of way if you come and go from the Patreon, just kind of like
01:08:37.160 get what you like when you want it, because I know finances for everybody are whatever
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01:08:44.160 I do want to also mention our brand partner, Common Era Jewelry, which is a women-owned
01:08:50.860 business that is a small business that's making beautiful jewelry inspired by women
01:08:56.100 from history, people like Cleopatra, Agrippina, and Boleyn, as well as mythological figures like
01:09:02.180 Medusa and Aphrodite. And so these pieces are beautiful. A few weeks ago, we had the episode
01:09:08.720 about Hatshepsut. I couldn't tell myself I got the Hatshepsut necklace because I was just so
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01:09:51.680 at vulgarhistory.redbubble.com. You can get in touch with me using the form at vulgarhistory.com
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01:10:03.880 at vulgarhistorypod. At the moment, every week, there's this new show on stars in Canada and the
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01:10:15.260 and george and it takes place during the reign of king james the first slash six it's about
01:10:21.100 his favorite um george villiers some past people from the podcast who we've talked about on the
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01:10:48.300 Transcripts of recent episodes are available at vulgarhistory.com. Thank you to Aveline Malek
01:10:52.420 for providing these transcripts. And until next time, everyone, until next week, keep your pants
01:10:58.180 on and your tits out. Vulgar History is hosted, written, and researched by Anne Foster and edited 0.99
01:11:06.060 by Christina Lumagi.
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01:11:21.940 Welcome to the Realms of Peril and Glory.
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01:12:14.200 There are vampires out there.
01:12:17.360 They walk among you, shoulder to shoulder, in the dark.
01:12:20.360 Heading to work, heading home, going to the bar.
01:12:22.880 It's a life just like anyone else's, and I have grown used to it.
01:12:27.120 To the darkness, to the moon, to the taste of blood on my tongue.
01:12:30.860 But vampires are dying out.
01:12:32.940 We are a fading kind, and I am the first one created in so long.
01:12:37.720 And that is a dangerous thing to be.
01:12:39.920 Those who came before me, elders of all stripes, they do not want to see our kind gone,
01:12:44.300 and they will do anything to keep their power.
01:12:47.440 And for myself, and for Grace, who created me, that is a sword that hangs above our heads.
01:12:52.820 And the worst person of all carries our secret, and he will use it however he sees fit.
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01:13:02.540 From the creators of Parkdale Haunt comes Woodbine, a podcast about monsters, dreams, and changes.
01:13:07.640 those you want and those you never saw coming season two arrives september 24th distributed
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01:13:20.840 happen my name's mandy and i'm melissa and we're the hosts of moms and mysteries the true crime
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01:13:51.120 Join us for new episodes of Moms and Mysteries every Tuesday and Thursday.
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