00:06:57.600people go through life in their family clans.
00:07:00.660So what mattered, your center of affiliation was your clan, your extended family.
00:07:07.040Not so much the local government, the national government, or even the king, which was a distant figure in this remote colony.
00:07:17.220What mattered in the life of individuals was who your father was, who your uncle was, who your mother was,
00:07:24.760and what kind of connections could your family, extended family, build in order to ensure that you survive in this situation.
00:07:33.700So you go through life being the daughter of, the husband of, the wife of.
00:07:40.700And what matters is what can you do in order to make sure that your clan, as a clan, as an extended family, survives.
00:07:48.060So that's the sort of social environment.
00:07:51.300As per the economic environment, we are talking about a remote Chile, central Chile, in the 17th century,
00:07:58.780which is a remote province of the Spanish Empire that is a war, constant war against the natives.0.80
00:08:08.240This is the ultimate frontier of Dubai, right?
00:08:12.500So there is a little bit south of Santiago, it's war territory.
00:08:19.260And this territory is controlled by the natives who, for lack of a term, many ways to call them,
00:08:27.040but for lack of a better name, we can give them the collective noun of Mapuches.
00:08:33.620So the Mapuches are in control of pretty much southern Chile.
00:08:36.680And this tiny colony is trying to survive with assistance from the central government, from the king in Spain.
00:08:45.640But in constant war against these natives who resist colonization, resist Christianization, evangelization, you name it.0.94
00:08:55.160These natives epitomize everything that is, quote-unquote, pagan, everything that is bad, everything that is backward, and they oppose the expansion of the bad.0.88
00:09:06.680So in this situation of constant war, we have in the cities or the main city in the colony, which is Santiago, where Doña Catalina lived, we have the creation of an elite that builds its identity on the situation of war.0.93
00:09:26.540how good you are in advancing the interests of the Spanish Empire,
00:09:34.320and how loyal you are to the cause of the empire.
00:09:41.080So in this situation, this kind of society does not recognize itself1.00
00:09:48.460because it's not in their best interest as a mixed-race society.1.00
00:09:53.540It is you are Hispanic, Catholic, white, Christian, loyal subject to the king, or at least this is what you say, or you are native, bad, pagan, backward, savage.0.98
00:10:06.760So in that dichotomy, that dichotomy is what we need to use to understand Chilean society at the time and the milieu in which Doña Catalina, the real Doña Catalina lived.0.94
00:10:20.460This is also a very, in modern terms, we would call it a corrupt society.
00:10:27.840The royal administration, particularly in these remote locations, was subject to all forms of engaging in all kinds of corruption.
00:10:38.160So all kinds of favors and agreements that were not part of the duties, of the administrative duties of these authorities, were the norm.
00:14:57.020So you were talking about in the historian, the historian and the creation of the Chilean national identity, which somehow involved inventing this monster narrative.
00:15:09.740He, I will say, BenjamÃn Vicuña McKenna introduced the monster via a very specific tool of mass media communication, which was a newspaper to begin with.
00:15:23.620But within the newspaper, the section called FoyetÃn, which is a serialized narrative, you know, included at the end of each edition.
00:15:33.020And this idea is important because this kind of serialized, serial deliveries added to the newspaper, they have a very specific targeted audience, which is first of all women and second, young readers.
00:15:51.960So young, inexperienced readers, and women who are inexperienced readers by definitions in the 19th century, would be the main readers of this first delivery of the monster.
00:16:07.380And Lakintralla is an immediate success.
00:16:11.220And people keep asking more details about this monster to the author.
00:16:17.620So the author, at the end of the same year, at the end of 1877, he puts out a book.
00:16:25.780And if you notice the switch to the audience, books are the kind of readings that educated men would engage.
00:16:36.020So he switches from uneducated audiences who love it to educated audiences, men, which is fascinating in itself.
00:16:46.360So he publishes a book with the title of Lisberger and Plakindrala, which is basically a genealogy of the Lisberger clan that depicts the sort of Baroque environment that was 17th century Chilean society.
00:17:06.080The Leisberger clan was, they were well known at the time or later on, this clan, you said that the family was so important and this was one of the prominent families.
00:17:16.320Yes, it was one of the most prominent families in the colonial society.
00:17:22.580And Vicuña McKenna being a member of the Chilean elite in the 19th century, somehow connected by her voice to these stories.
00:17:33.980He knew about this. So he is in his in his narrative. He basically says openly that it's very basically that his depiction of the monster is basically based on hearsay, fault tales and stories that he heard as a child.
00:18:16.260He was just sharing a story that already invented, that existed.
00:18:20.180Yeah, but because his audience is an educated audience now, he needs to somehow put some validity in the form of documentation.
00:18:32.440And he's very explicit about this as well. The guy was a masterful writer. He's very explicit about that.
00:18:39.560He says, you know what, I know I should be showing to you documentation about all the crimes committed by this woman.1.00
00:18:47.340But there is no documentation. Guess why? Because her clan was so connected to the high spheres of the law in the colony that they covered up all her crimes.1.00
00:19:03.420So the notion of corruption of the judicial colonial system
00:19:07.780comes very prominently in Vikunyamakena's writing.0.93
00:19:12.080So he says basically, yeah, believe me, she committed all these crimes,
00:19:15.780but I cannot show you documentation because all these crimes were covered up0.94
00:19:20.820by the judges who were basically bought by the Lisberger clan,
00:19:27.480which is a very convenient way for historians to say, yeah, believe me, believe me,
00:19:31.740There should be documentation, but there is none because of the corruption of the system.
00:19:36.800The truth was that the system was corrupt.
00:19:40.860The colonial administration in Chile was extremely corrupt.
00:19:46.080And there is a historian who makes a very good point about this.
00:19:53.160The colony of Chile, during colonial times, was very well known for exercising the process of co-optation of authorities coming from Spain to rule the colony.
00:20:07.980And there were, I mean, new administrators coming to the colony were warned very explicitly about how keenly this local elite is going to try to get you to be part of their business.
00:20:27.680So this summer, for instance, I was doing my own research, trying to find some form of documentation about all the alleged crimes that Vicuña Maquina said Doña Catalina committed.
00:20:41.060And I found instead a lot of crimes committed by the clan, by the Lisperger clan, of which Doña Catalina was an active member, a prominent member.
00:20:51.720And the crimes, all the crimes that this family committed were very much geared towards co-optation of the local authorities, the administrators sent by the count.
00:21:05.220So we can talk about that, or we can go into the alleged crimes of Lagintralla.
00:21:13.320I think what would be good for the listeners right now is to explain the monster,
00:21:19.780to explain what the crimes are this is where when I first started just doing a little bit of reading
00:21:26.760about her the everything you just said about how there's no proof seemed so confusing to me because
00:21:33.840I was reading she did this she did this she did this but there's no actual she was never put taken
00:21:40.920to prison for any of these things so I thought well did she do these things I love that you're
00:21:46.780Like even today, you're trying to find evidence and it's hard to find.
00:21:53.320And also, I guess both just how little children hear the story probably still today.
00:22:00.560Like what is the story that people know?
00:22:02.820Okay, so today La Quintralla is this kind of an evil ghost that is kind of the boogeyman.
00:22:10.780I was born and raised in Chile, so I was threatening myself with Lagintralla.0.99
00:22:16.920So Maria, if you don't eat your veggies, Lagintralla is going to come after you1.00
00:22:20.520because she is the encapsulation of all the kind of punishment1.00
00:22:25.520that you can receive if you commit a transgression.
00:22:29.620And the notion of transgression is kind of very neat in this whole story as well.0.98
00:22:36.600So, like in Trala, it's the kind of encapsulation of all that can be wrong with a woman.0.93
00:22:44.620So, it's an encapsulation of sexual transgression, proclivity to commit violent acts, greed.0.99
00:22:53.620Greed because it's supposedly this woman did commit all these crimes just out of pure the fact that she was back to the ball.
00:23:04.880I think I started my piece with the story of a middle-aged architect in Chile who, in 2014, I want to say, was found guilty of paying a sicario to kill somebody, her ex, her former husband.
00:23:23.680And she was arrested and put the trial, found guilty.
00:23:27.480And right away, Chilean newspapers nicknamed her La Guintrana.
00:23:31.300so it's the bad woman who commits violent crimes and that do the best that's the best to get away0.87
00:23:40.480with it so the notion of impunity committing crimes because you're bad because you're greedy
00:23:45.820because you're sexually unrestrained and try to and do the best to try to get away with it
00:23:51.540it's also part of it's an important component of the monster i personally think that the notion
00:23:58.540of impunity runs very deep in the collective imagination of Chilean society, even today.
00:24:05.760The notion that somebody can be bad, bad, bad, commit horrible things and yet get away
00:24:10.780with it is, I'm thinking about Pinochet's dictatorship, for instance, it's very prominent
00:24:17.540into the collective imagination of what can happen in Chile.
00:24:22.940And like Intrala fits into that profile to the team.
00:24:25.640And so on top of that, she is also the ghost of La Quintralla is supposed to be one of the many manifestations of the devil itself.
00:24:38.400And so practitioners of black magic, for instance, to use the ghost of La Quintralla to give power to the rituals that they are performing.
00:24:47.460So it's kind of an omnipresent presence in Chilean pop culture, popular culture today.
00:24:57.760That is the today, the monster, the ghost today.
00:25:02.180In Vicuña McKenna's narrative, the crimes that Doña Catalina committed, but of which there are no proof,
00:25:13.620So according to him, let me see, I have the list of the bad things that she probably, that she was said to have done.
00:25:20.800She poisoned her father when she was a teenager.
00:25:27.640And the reason why she poisoned her father, Cedicuna McKenna, it was because she was reaching teenage years.0.99
00:25:34.540Her hormones were running wild and her father wanted to sexually constrain her.0.94
00:25:40.940And so in response, she killed the father.0.81
00:25:44.760After that, she goes on to have many, many, many, many lovers.1.00
00:25:50.060And so she basically sleeps with whichever man she wants to sleep with and gets away with it because she kills them after having sex with her.1.00
00:26:01.580So as a way to protect her reputation, she basically kills all her lovers.1.00
00:26:07.160Another crime that she committed was, and it's probably the only transgression that so far I found documentation for. And according to Viguita Makena, she killed by torture hundreds of her workers in her landed estate.1.00
00:26:28.120Can we talk about, so the workers, so like enslaved people, are these Africans or are these...0.99
00:26:35.120There are Mapuches. So there are Mapuches who live in this European control area of the colony, but they're also African slaves.0.94
00:26:50.820So that's the workforce that the landed elite has at its disposal in Chile.0.88
00:26:57.600And Doña Catalina had a number of workers as well.1.00
00:27:01.800So, according to Vicuña McKenna, she tortured.
00:27:07.700The notion of killing by torture is also a component in Chilean imagination, by the way.0.90
00:27:15.440So, according to Vicuña McKenna, because of her own sadism, she killed them by torturing them endlessly.
00:27:27.940And she killed many, many, many, many, according to Vicuña McKenna.0.84
00:27:31.800And she got, of course, that was against the law, but she was brought to trial, but she got away with it because of all the influences of the Lisperger clan.
00:31:45.720Yeah. So it's. Yeah. So these stories, I can see why when they were serialized first, I think the readers every week would be excited to hear what new terrible thing did this person do if everything is so extreme.
00:32:03.380Yeah, well, let me go back a little bit to the story of the workers, because that's the only direct piece of documentation so far that I found in archives that clarifies the bond.
00:32:20.400So there was a legal investigation because not hundreds, but 40 workers had died of illness, of a plague in the landed state of Doña Catalina.
00:32:38.060And there was an investigation because it was, of course, against the law to punish your workers or to mistreat your workers.
00:32:46.020Although labor laws were very loosely enforced in colonial Chile.
00:32:51.640So we're talking about 40 people who apparently died out of malnutrition or illness during that particular winter.
00:33:02.700There was an investigation, but there was the judge following the investigation did not find any conclusive evidence that it was the personal flaw of Doña Catalina.0.93
00:33:17.600To which Vicuña McKenna would argue, you see, there's a whole system of corruption protecting her and her family.0.90
00:33:27.240So that's the reason why we don't have evidence.
00:33:29.220so you're saying you've done these investigations to try and find evidence
00:33:35.860one way or the other about what she did but what do we know about the real person
00:33:44.520uh what do we know about the real person and that's another component and probably the0.93
00:33:52.060one of the main points in my own research what do we know about her we know that she
00:33:59.200was a wealthy lady that she married only once and she her husband died very very early into the0.98
00:34:10.660marriage and she remained a widow which was kind of not the norm yeah women were supposed to marry1.00
00:34:19.540and stay and if the husband died they were supposed to marry again because women needed to be0.98
00:34:25.180under the control or the protection of a maid, right?0.97
00:37:57.980So we have on one side already German roots, Germans mixing with natives.
00:38:05.460On the other side of her family, we also have German, and there is the Lisberger.
00:38:11.860That is the Lisberger element of the family.
00:38:14.980And in that case, we're talking about Peter Lisberger, who was a page to Charles V.
00:38:23.640So we are talking about Germans ranking very high in the colonial administration that then are sent to the frontier of the empire to, again, preserve Spanish control there.0.73
00:38:37.720And in the process, they get mixed with the local elite.
00:38:42.160So in there, and of course, there is the Spanish component, also on another venue that runs in her plan.
00:38:50.280so that combination of spanish native and german heritage says vicuña maquina is what makes it0.91
00:38:59.560specifically evil and because it's mestizaje right it's race mixing as good as it gets0.58
00:39:06.620and race mixing is something that was not supposed to happen was not meant to happen0.56
00:39:12.260in a colony that was constantly at war0.96
00:39:15.840and that put in one side the bad native
00:39:21.100and the good Spaniard or the good European.
00:39:24.360So the crossing, the in-betweenness0.96
00:39:26.700is what makes her particularly bad, particularly evil.
00:39:33.300So is that partially when he was writing it,
00:39:40.080that his readers would already be suspicious about so he knew that if he says it's a independent1.00
00:39:46.760woman mixed race he knew that the readers would think oh of course she's evil of course she has1.00
00:39:53.920to be bad yeah yeah because it's this because they mixed race in chile even today i'm talking1.00
00:40:04.760today almost everybody is mixed race almost like in any other part of latin america almost
00:40:11.380everybody's mixed race but chileans i would presume because of the situation of war that
00:40:21.720marks so deeply colonial times in chile in chilean society there is the idea that chileans are
00:40:29.960quieter than everybody else in Latin America, which is of course not true. But not only that,
00:40:36.500but the Chilean, and there are several articles and studies in the 20th century that talk about
00:40:44.080how the Chilean quote-unquote race is the most homogeneous race everywhere that you can possibly
00:40:52.260find anywhere in the entire planet, which of course is an exaggeration. But the idea that
00:40:58.540Chilean society is more European than any other society in Latin America, maybe with the exception of Argentinians.
00:41:08.740It runs very deep into the way in which Chileans still today identify, recognize themselves to be like.0.61
00:41:17.660So by making this monster in the 19th century, remember the 19th century is a period when historians,
00:41:25.460particularly historians, are sort of laying the foundations of national identities in these newly independent countries.
00:41:34.220When a historian picks, grabs the notion of mestizaje and adds into the creation of this monster that he offers to his readers as a lesson,
00:41:45.600because she serves as a monster to educate Pequena Maquena's audiences, they would recognize, oh yeah, mestizaje was so bad.
00:41:55.460It never happened. It was horror, but when it did happen, look what it did to people, particularly to women, who were allowed to run without control in the colonial times.
00:42:09.120So that is a mistake that we should not repeat in the organization of this newly independent republic.
00:42:15.400So that is the educational angle. I think Vicuña Maquina intended to use when she adds the notion of Doña Catalina Beina Mestiza, which I find fascinating.
00:42:29.620well and as you said there is there is so much race mixing but to say to use her as a warning0.99
00:42:37.040or to show this is why you shouldn't do it because your child will be a monster like she was1.00
00:42:41.600although i have no proof that she was a monster she was yeah that's a good point she she was
00:42:48.220it doesn't matter in that sense when we think in those terms evidence is irrelevant right0.98
00:42:54.380because she is a monster for what she is and therefore as a monster she had to have committed
00:43:03.340bad crimes because she's a monster right so it's a catch-22 so i have a list of what i think
00:43:14.540is what vicuña mckenna wanted to um to teach his his 19th century audiences
00:43:22.060Remember, in the book, he's addressing now males, men, educated men,
00:43:26.640who is the political elite that is going to run the country
00:43:32.960during the 19th century and much of the 20th century.0.99
00:43:36.160So this is, I would say, that this is what Vikunyamagina wanted
01:00:57.020I think in that case, the historian is putting the attention,
01:01:01.780is placing his attention in the right areas.
01:01:04.260But we need to add ethnicity and the mixed ethnicity of the character into the whole deconstruction of the icon first, but also to think that maybe race mixing was not that uncommon.
01:01:22.180And we know, demographic historians do know, they have made the point that race mixing was not that uncommon at all. And it happened since day one. Yet, the Chilean colonial society refused to accept it and recognize themselves as mestizos.
01:01:44.420and the way at the very beginning of this conversation we were describing
01:01:49.340the the culture was so much this is the colonial the the european pathlic people and then here's
01:01:58.760the the mapuche the incas the indigenous people were so separate that's how they how the europeans
01:02:06.820wanted it to seem but that was never the case there was always the mixing oh yeah there are
01:02:14.140in the case of the Peruvian Viceroyalty there are monumental works on the notion of mestizaje.
01:02:21.500Because probably Peru, and we're jumping to Peru, but that's fine, probably because the Viceroyalty
01:02:28.380of Peru, of which Chile was a province, was immensely rich and immensely important
01:02:35.500geopolitically for the Spanish Empire. We have far more documentation about
01:02:43.340this race mixing in in the case of peru and we do know and there is no reason to think that chile
01:02:50.380was different we do know that spaniards mixed and married or not married uh very prominent incan
01:03:00.140daughters of incan administrators uh so the alliance at the at the at the level of the leads
01:03:06.620was a governmental policy since day one.
01:03:11.380So there's a first generation of mixed race people1.00
01:08:57.640and no roles barred search realms of peril and glory to find out more
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01:10:36.300So of the information that we know about Catalina, the actual person,
01:10:42.920I think you said she was, at one point,
01:10:46.620charges were brought up for the death of 40 of her workers.
01:10:50.480so that that did actually happen she was investigated for that and that's it
01:10:57.660it was horrible certainly certainly was a horrible thing to happen but if we look at these
01:11:07.22040 workers who who died in the hands or because of the misadministration of of that specific0.91
01:11:15.520If we look at these numbers in the sort of overall context of the agrarian violence that was pervasive in colonial Chile and still in modern Chile, agrarian society is extremely violent.
01:11:31.040if we looked in which corporal punishment was the norm was allowed and there was this huge
01:11:40.720gap between those who are in were in power i mean that is the owners of the land and those who were
01:11:46.700not those that is the workers violence was corporal punishment violence killings were the norm
01:11:55.220And almost everybody in the landed elite of colonial Chile did engage in this kind of activities.
01:12:03.980Vicuña Maguena picked the case of Doña Catalina because of her profiles very nicely to his purposes.
01:12:14.900But workers died all the time, at all times, during colonial Chile.
01:12:50.540At the very beginning of our conversation, you made the distinction.
01:12:54.000There's the Catalina, there's the woman, and then there's the monster.
01:12:57.340And the monster, there's so much more written about.
01:13:03.600Again, when you have a good story, you have a good story.
01:13:08.900And Vicuña Marguena, God, he had a very good story.
01:13:13.680That's part of his genius, I would say, as a writer.
01:13:17.220i guess i guess to a certain extent all historians we do know that as historians right when you have
01:13:23.900a good story you you know it because your audience wants to know more about that
01:13:29.640so happens that most of us is modern historians we do pay attention to our sources and we do pay
01:13:38.720attention to questioning our sources with a green or sort of that that's what we do by training
01:13:43.880But that kind of restrictions were not part of the way in which Vicuña McKenna understood his role as historian.
01:13:53.980In his mind, like in the minds of intellectuals at the time, history was to serve as an educational tool.
01:14:04.580So notions from the past, stories from the past, information from the past was to serve as a way to educate.
01:14:12.080The role of the historians, of historians, because I was very clear about that, is to educate people.
01:14:19.280And you educate people using a good story, not using abundant information.
01:14:26.760I don't, I was just imagining if you or anyone publishing academic papers now said, there's no evidence for this, but just trust me, it happened like he was able to do.
01:14:38.680you would not go very fast into this profession if you do that yeah but that's so i'm also curious
01:14:45.860to know you mentioned being told as a girl you know if you don't do this la quinchala will come
01:14:51.640do you remember um any other examples of as a child just what you heard about la quinchala
01:14:59.520So I grew up in the northern provinces of Chile, and the north is very native.
01:15:10.320So there is a strong native influence in what is nowadays northern Chile.
01:15:14.460But in this case, not Mapuche natives, but Aymara natives.
01:15:22.120So spiritual alternative practices, for lack of a better word, are very prominent in Native societies.
01:15:32.180And those practices borrow from Catholicism as well as from Native traditions.
01:15:40.280And I recall that, for instance, women who have a reputation of being a witch or healers would claim as a sort of publicity to their services that, yeah, yeah, I use the goals of La Quintrada to potentiate, to enhance my power.
01:16:04.200So trust me, I'm better than everybody else, just pay for my services because I work with
01:16:10.860like Entrada, you know, which is fascinating in itself how people of Aymara origins practicing
01:16:19.500healing, which incorporates elements of Catholicism, at the same time are borrowing from this
01:16:27.120collectively constructed monster surely without knowing the origins but it it i guess at that
01:16:34.660point when you have a good story as i said it doesn't matter by what kind of information people
01:16:39.360do not care in this case that non-specialists let's say would not care about what what are
01:16:45.900the sources of information but i would think too just la quinchalla being the most sounds like
01:16:52.060the most famous monster in Chilean history so of course that's and if I can harness that and I
01:17:00.100keep it under control look at me what kind of spiritual services I'm offering right and just0.97
01:17:06.100the people everyone would know what you're talking about because that's the most famous0.98
01:17:10.120I find it so interesting that that this is the most famous monster in Chilean culture and it
01:17:18.840is based on a real woman but there's such a such a strange path from her and who she was
01:17:26.020McKenna like really popularizing this story and now it seems like and didn't you say part of why
01:17:31.580he did that was Chile was developing its own independent culture and so he wanted to have
01:17:38.200figures that everybody could unite around yeah it's called the foundational narratives
01:17:46.760So the idea is that, well, this is the notion by Benedict Anderson.
01:17:55.480His book came when I started grad school, which is some time ago.
01:18:00.120And the idea that nations, modern nations, as nation states in the 19th century of after colonial period, nations are created, nations are invented.
01:18:13.040There has to be some form of speech, of discourse that is created, that would create this notion of affiliation.
01:18:24.380So, oh, we are Chileans because this is what we share.
01:18:28.520We are Peruvians because this is what we share.
01:18:31.280And, you know, you name it, multiply it around Latin America.
01:18:35.860So the 19th century is the sort of fertile ground
01:18:40.060for the creation, and intellectuals do that.
01:18:44.000Intellectuals from the local bourgeoisie, by the way,
01:18:46.640they do that, they create these stories
01:18:49.980that would be the foundational fiction
01:18:53.440of who Chileans are, what makes Chileans common,
01:18:59.020what would make you recognize each other as Chileans.
01:19:03.480And so the creation of these foundational fictions
01:19:06.220are fundamental to create this notion of connectivity.
01:25:00.140Because the person who is in between is extremely dangerous for everybody else.
01:25:06.620So we know what happened to La Malinche, for instance.
01:25:10.640We know what happened to the case of Guerrero.
01:25:13.020So the fact that those people who are in between are either killed, they meet a bad end, or they are monsters, it's an important component of how we should be thinking about cultural encounters in a situation of coloniality.
01:25:34.100i guess i do just want to clarify as well that catalina the person as far as i have read she
01:25:42.940she lived to she was not put to death she did not die tragically young she just lived sort of an
01:25:50.860average lifespan her 60 something yeah yeah there was nothing so the monstrousness
01:25:59.580is really about how allegedly she lived her life
01:26:04.880and then she has this long afterlife as the monster,
01:26:08.540but she doesn't have the same sort of tragic end
01:36:11.500One of my listeners who's in Peru had been to Chile,
01:36:15.980And he was impressed. And I think he said, sort of pleased to see that there was a lot of feminists, there was a lot of women being celebrated in Chilean culture and society. That was his impression. Is that something that you would also recognize?
01:36:34.620I think the election of President Bachelet, Michelle Bachelet, twice, marked a threshold in there, as in Chileans recognizing women and following women in a position of authority.
01:36:52.740So I think Chilean society has made a lot of advances in putting and selecting and implementing female leadership.
01:37:05.680So, yes, I would agree with your viewer in that regard.
01:37:09.880Also, but however, I would give credits also to Peru.1.00
01:37:14.800I think female leadership, questionable as it can be at times,0.99
01:37:20.400is also gaining grounds in Peruvian society.0.97
01:37:24.900Another element that we need to keep in mind0.99
01:37:26.780is that economic agency and leadership for women0.87
01:37:32.360is a variable that is culturally connected.0.99
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