Vulgar History - The First Female Egyptian Pharaoh, Hatshepsut

00:00:00.000 hello and welcome to vulgar history of feminist women's history comedy podcast

00:00:16.220 my name is ann foster and clear your schedules because this is a mega long episode a bit ago i

00:00:25.000 I was asking on Instagram, just of curiosity, what people are doing when they listen to

00:00:29.860 Vulgar History.

00:00:30.620 And it was really interesting for me to see what people do.

00:00:33.000 At first, I put down a poll that had just a couple options.

00:00:36.480 And one of the options was other.

00:00:37.580 And a lot of people were choosing others.

00:00:39.120 And I was like, what do you do?

00:00:41.120 And so what I have learned is that there are people out there, you know what?

00:00:43.900 And shout out to all of you right now, walking your dogs, going for your hot girl walks,

00:00:48.660 going for your mental health walks.

00:00:50.080 There's a lot of walkers listening.

00:00:52.360 There's people at the gym.

00:00:53.240 there's people at work there's people at home doing their chores

00:00:58.380 yeah just lots of things there's people in the shower there's people falling asleep so you know

00:01:05.080 shout out to all of you doing all of these things there's people special shout out to people on long

00:01:09.620 car commute trips because this episode is three hours long and yes i don't know if you're out

00:01:16.960 walking your dog just know unless you have some sort of real big hike you're doing with the dog

00:01:22.620 You might have to listen to this over several dog walking sessions.

00:01:27.020 And the reason it's so long is because there's so much to talk about slash also my guest is

00:01:33.160 the much requested return of Gina Berry, who she was on the podcast last year.

00:01:40.980 We did an episode about Nefertiti, which I feel like was about this long as well.

00:01:45.960 And she and I have now learned, or I guess I have now learned that when I invite Gina

00:01:50.240 on. She and I can just get to talking, and these episodes go on. But also, we talk about

00:01:55.900 subjects. So far, she's been on the Nefertiti episode. Today, we're talking about Hatshepsut,

00:02:01.720 and there's a lot of context you need to get into to really appreciate and understand these

00:02:07.260 stories we're talking about, which take place incredibly long ago. This episode about Hatshepsut,

00:02:12.160 I talk about it in the recording you're about to hear, but it's the longest ago person that I've

00:02:18.320 ever read about and consequently that has ever been on this podcast. So there's a lot of place

00:02:23.600 setting, but this is really just like sit back and enjoy it. Maybe some of you are, I'm trying

00:02:28.380 to think what else other people said, eating your meal in a waiting room, standing in line at the

00:02:33.820 grocery store. Just luxuriate in this extremely long episode. We're talking about Hedge Shepsut.

00:02:41.240 We introduced everything in the episode, but I do want to make clear that for both Gina and I,

00:02:45.800 our main reference for this was a book called The Woman Who Would Be King by Kara Cooney,

00:02:52.520 which is really recommended just in terms of really thoughtful. And Kara Cooney,

00:03:01.080 she's written other books about ancient Egypt things. And I really like this book of hers,

00:03:05.580 not that I don't like the other ones, but what I like about her and her approach,

00:03:08.420 it's similar to what Gina and I bring to the party, which is really just looking at people

00:03:11.840 as people and imagining why they did the things they did. And considering what Kara's looking at

00:03:16.540 are like, you know, two-dimensional hieroglyphs from 6,000 years ago, there's some real piecing

00:03:24.020 together she needs to do to make it all make sense. And I think she does a great job on this

00:03:27.600 book, The Woman Who Would Be King. I also got just as a guideline for this episode, I was looking at

00:03:33.120 Women in World History, Volume 7, which there's an entry by Barbara S. Lesko. And, you know,

00:03:39.360 shout out to women in world history volumes one through whatever it's this multi-volume thing that

00:03:45.120 they have at the public library in the city where i live in saskatoon and i really like the the

00:03:51.980 entries that they have in there just it's a for me it's a great way to sort of have an outline for a

00:03:56.360 person when i'm gonna be recording and they often i learn some interesting things from them as well

00:04:03.100 but honestly, Hatshepsut, you know what, just kick back, enjoy, you know, listen to this,

00:04:10.720 maybe like a mini series, like do an hour a day. I don't know, but, or just like really lean into

00:04:14.980 it. And one more source that I wanted to mention that I also looked at before we recorded this

00:04:20.000 is an article that is called Dequeering Hatshepsut, Binary Bind and Archaeology of Egypt and Kingship

00:04:26.880 Beyond the Corporeal by Urosh Matic, who is an archaeologist and Egyptologist specialized in

00:04:34.060 violence, ethnicity, gender, and settlement archaeology of ancient Egypt. And so I was

00:04:38.720 looking at that because I was considering about gender presentation of Hatshepsut and how best,

00:04:45.360 not how best, but just what's the most appropriate, currently accepted way to talk about this person

00:04:50.380 who has some real gender stuff going on in their story. I also consulted just briefly via email

00:04:56.720 with friend of the podcast, Kit Ham, about who also mentions Hatshepsut in their book

00:05:02.980 before we were trans. And so I reread that passage as well. And ultimately what I determined and

00:05:09.600 Gina as well, we're both referred to Hatshepsut using she, her pronouns. But I mean, we're talking

00:05:15.460 about a story that takes place so impossibly long ago in a culture where I don't know the language

00:05:23.720 than what they're doing with pronouns, but she and I were following the example of Kara Cooney

00:05:27.560 and we're using she, her pronouns for reasons that we talk about in the podcast. Totally respect

00:05:32.200 that another person can prefer to use they, them pronouns for Hatshepsut, but that's where we're

00:05:37.720 coming from with this. So anyway, pour yourself a tall glass of whatever and enjoy this XX long

00:05:45.800 episode of Vulgar History featuring Gina Berry talking about Hatshepsut. 1.00

00:05:53.720 Okay, so I'm joined by Gina Berry.

00:06:00.240 Gina, thank you so much for doing this with me.

00:06:02.980 Absolutely.

00:06:03.580 Thank you for having me again.

00:06:05.780 I, yeah, I mean, you're really kind of my go-to Egyptology expert,

00:06:11.540 although I know you also know about the Roman Empire,

00:06:13.760 and the next time you're on, for sure, it'll be something about that.

00:06:17.880 I don't want to pigeonhole you.

00:06:19.100 whatever whatever you want to talk about I am willing to talk about oh my goodness so we're

00:06:26.920 talking about Hatshepsut and I just want to establish now and this is when we first mentioned

00:06:32.400 it you were like I'm going to call her hat and so I just call her hat now too so we're calling her

00:06:36.780 hat just so everyone knows yes otherwise we will be tongue-tied for the entirety of this podcast

00:06:43.340 but also I feel like I've been thinking about her so much I feel like she's my close personal

00:06:48.540 friend hat you know that's what i'd call her if i knew her it is you know when you're reading about

00:06:54.700 these individuals it's so easy to just get consumed by it and you know just like literally

00:07:01.380 start picturing yourself sitting right next to them in the throne room or walking with them

00:07:06.240 along the halls of the palace it's just it's just so easy to do i i'm right there with you on that

00:07:12.080 yeah and that's what i love about just something that we have in common in terms of history

00:07:17.400 there are other people who really see them as just like queen Hatshepsut like we just look at

00:07:22.700 her from a distance she's a historical figure but I and I think you were just like this is a person

00:07:28.500 like what was she like as a person and exactly just sitting next to her imagining what she was

00:07:33.100 like what before I'd invited you to do this podcast what or how much did you know about

00:07:39.260 Hatshepsut had you ever read about her before you know um funny thing is when I first learned about

00:07:45.660 her, and it was a number of years ago, I read a few of the initial assessments of her done by,

00:07:55.920 let's just face it, European males. And their initial assessment of her was she was this,

00:08:03.840 that, and the other. And you know what this, that, and the other usually entails when it comes to

00:08:08.860 women. And so since that was the only thing I had ever read about her, you think, okay, well,

00:08:16.000 you know, these are the people that studied her. This must have been what she was. And then over

00:08:21.720 the years, I started seeing other things about her. And I'm like, well, this is a little different.

00:08:28.360 And then a couple of years ago, I read a book by Kara Cooney that just painted her in a completely

00:08:36.940 different light than anything I had ever read about her. And I'll be honest, I reread the book

00:08:42.520 before this podcast because it's so interesting. And so it's like, you know, like you said,

00:08:49.340 there are people that will just look at her and say, this was this person at this time period.

00:08:55.920 This is what we assume about them because these are the things that we've been taught to assume

00:09:01.860 about these people from the past and since you know and I've mentioned this before you're not

00:09:08.100 reading Latin where they're able to detail out things that happened and they will detail out

00:09:14.680 what people thought because they wrote down what they thought all the time in Latin they did not

00:09:20.120 do that in Egypt it's all hieroglyphs so you have very specific like factual things because they had

00:09:28.780 limited space to write. I mean, granted, some of those monuments were huge, but still you could

00:09:34.840 only fit so much on there. So they were just going by just the fact of the hieroglyph that they saw.

00:09:42.420 And that was what in turn they told us. So my initial assessment of her was their initial

00:09:48.760 assessment of her. And that was all I knew. And for a number of years, that's all I thought about

00:09:52.920 her because that's all I knew. And then I started studying other people. As everyone knows, I've

00:10:00.420 studied Nefertiti. And obviously I had my first initial thought of her based off the first initial

00:10:05.860 thing I read. But then I started reading other things and realizing, wait, she might not have

00:10:10.260 been what I thought she was. And that's when I started kind of looking back into her because I

00:10:16.040 was like, well, maybe they did that with her too, because they've done it with pretty much every

00:10:20.400 woman in history and so i didn't have a ton of information on her until power lack the last

00:10:27.380 three years and that's when she became so much more interesting to me the thing with hat and i

00:10:34.140 had never i only i never read up about her and honestly now i'm just like i don't remember why

00:10:39.900 did you suggest her i forget why i was even like i'm gonna do this with gina you know i probably

00:10:44.480 mentioned her at some time and um and oh and it's probably you know I'm always sending you those

00:10:51.040 renderings of yeah different people from the past and I think it was probably the combination of

00:10:56.340 those two people were two things that you were like hmm I wonder who this person is yeah like

00:11:01.200 I feel like the only things because I read the same book you read the Kara Cooney the woman who

00:11:05.520 would be king which I really appreciate that book like I'm glad that that was my first exposure to

00:11:10.920 her because Kara Kuni talks in that about kind of here's how people thought she was, but here's

00:11:15.380 kind of the research she did and how she's interpreting it. So I'm glad that that was

00:11:19.740 my first impression. But really, all that I'd heard about her was I knew I'd heard that Hatshepsut

00:11:24.300 was a king. And we're going to talk about that. And that some of the imagery of her was like a

00:11:31.840 woman, but wearing the king accoutrements, like, like a beard, you know, was kind of like a crown

00:11:39.800 for them so I just kind of knew that but I didn't I did not know and now this week like I was

00:11:45.080 messaging you like I don't when I'm recording with somebody I like to wait until the recording 0.65

00:11:49.800 to really get into it but I was just like Gina oh my god I can't I can't handle those women I'm

00:11:56.920 obsessed but also and you've been like like ancient Egypt ancient Rome like these are things that you

00:12:03.620 like to think about but ancient Egypt I was just like wait a minute let me just look at like when

00:12:08.200 this was all happening. And that's part of what I told you. And I just want to talk about that

00:12:11.140 and just to situate this for everybody. So for instance, going back in time. So Cleopatra,

00:12:19.240 for instance, like very famous Egyptian queen. So she was born around like 69 BCE. We're going

00:12:27.820 back in time. So Nefertiti, who you and I talked about, that's like 1370 BCE, 1300 years before.

00:12:38.200 like gosh what would that be for us now that's like a thousand years oh my math is bad you're an

00:12:45.200 accountant um you'd be going back to um if you equate it to england you'd be looking at you know

00:12:56.380 where they were still walking around in mud and everything was wood and cold and nothing was

00:13:04.440 established so just in terms of how deep like how long ago the ancient ancient history goes so like

00:13:11.540 the difference between cleopatra and nefertiti that would be the difference between us in 2024

00:13:16.240 and the year 724 like that's how long ago those two things were and then when we're going from

00:13:24.780 nefertiti back to hat so hat she's born probably around 1504 bce so this is like

00:13:33.300 again i want to get this math right you're an accountant i want to look cool i'm not a calculator

00:13:39.980 you use a calculator um i'm using a calculator so that's like 134 years between them

00:13:47.120 so this is it so that's again like 134 think about it this way 134 years however with the

00:13:53.860 lifespans that they were back then that could be six or so generations or more because their

00:14:02.700 lifespan was max usually about 30 years 35 years this was in the book too um I just really like

00:14:10.280 the way that Kara Cooney again like she really wrote this book for people like me who are just

00:14:13.920 like teach me all the things I'm not coming in with any knowledge but it's like because this is

00:14:18.160 so incredibly long ago it's like every disease was there because no one like they were so

00:14:25.940 sophisticated and they're such a as a culture um it was easy for me to forget but they were facing

00:14:33.580 like every disease in the world so it's like you know they had measles they had the bubonic plague

00:14:39.860 they had like typhoid lice they had like so like of course you know like if somebody was able to

00:14:46.920 live a long life good for them but in general every disease imaginable was there and people

00:14:55.180 we're getting it because it's because it's 1500 BCE this is like so long ago and then I was like

00:15:02.920 oh my gosh this is again I'm sure you thought through all this when you were like a young child

00:15:07.700 but I was just like wait so I was looking up I'm just like when did ancient Egypt start they're

00:15:13.740 still debating that one because every time I read something new they go back even further yeah yeah

00:15:20.320 so it's saying like um i'm just looking at wikipedia just for a quick answer here but like

00:15:25.420 for instance like the dynasties of egypt perhaps started around 3150 bce so that's that's 1500

00:15:33.280 years the dynasties for hat like it's such a i don't i don't know like honestly like to me i'm

00:15:40.760 such a basic like i studied modern history usually so i don't usually look back so to me before i was

00:15:46.840 looking into all this and part of why i was just like talking this through to myself because to me

00:15:50.600 it's like dinosaurs cavemen ancient egypt i'm like where like where does i don't know so i just i'm

00:15:59.740 like i didn't realize the people that long ago and the stuff that is in this book like like the

00:16:07.040 history that exists it's like yeah they their society had been around for thousands of years

00:16:12.380 They were like they had records. They had a language. They had a 24 hour clock.

00:16:17.000 They were like, did. And think about it this way.

00:16:19.540 So we all know that the pyramids today are old as God.

00:16:27.900 But just think about when when she was ruling, the pyramids were already considered to be ancient.

00:16:37.280 Yeah. I mean, that's how old they were by the time she came along.

00:16:41.420 so it's just like you don't really i mean you you hear names of people from the past

00:16:49.220 and you think oh wow you know that was a long time ago but you have to really stop and try to

00:16:56.320 wrap your head around just how long ago that was because it's not just a name it was it was a name

00:17:03.900 from that long ago but you still hear that name yeah after all these years oh and we're gonna get

00:17:10.920 into it despite the fact that various people were chiseling that name off of various walls we still

00:17:16.680 know it um yeah so first of all I was just trying to wrap my head around it and part of what was

00:17:22.140 throwing me and this is just like my own like I did a history undergraduate degree and stuff and

00:17:28.160 I remember I had this class that was called like the history of western civilization and my teacher

00:17:32.960 was like my teacher was like I hate that I have to teach this this is a really shitty way like

00:17:38.380 western civilization is not the only civilization but it was like that was the curriculum and she

00:17:42.120 had to teach this class but and i was like oh it's not and that was the first time little like

00:17:46.300 18 year old ann was like oh there's a broader world that's interesting because i had always

00:17:50.920 been taught in history it's just kind of like you know greeks romans british like this is the

00:17:56.520 trajectory but that's because i know now that like british people like european people wanted

00:18:03.560 to show themselves like oh we're the natural heirs of you know all this wonderful civilization

00:18:09.780 but meanwhile like while hat was doing what she was doing in this very organized civilization

00:18:16.860 that had been around for thousands of years up in england what are they doing they're like oh

00:18:21.260 like farming that's cool let's like let's baby let's do farms like we can actually grow things

00:18:28.400 in this mud let's let's try that well it's just it's such a sophisticated world and like when i

00:18:33.440 I don't know so it's it just I guess it's the same with like this is so long ago but also in

00:18:40.520 terms of this like classical era you know like ancient Rome was also really sophisticated and

00:18:44.300 that was really long ago and at that point England again they're just like throwing mud at each other

00:18:49.260 but this is so long ago and the story feels so similar to stories that I've covered on this

00:18:56.760 podcast from like 1600 like this is like but this is so long ago and it's just like people are still

00:19:04.980 just people like and that's what just it gets me that they were and and i don't even want to use

00:19:12.560 the word civilized because their their society was what it was not comparing themselves to anyone

00:19:20.500 their society was what it was. But they were so far advanced compared to pretty much anyone and

00:19:30.660 everyone around them that we know about. Maybe the Aztecs were kind of on the same level as them

00:19:39.320 at the time. We don't know. We don't really have a whole lot of history about them. And I haven't

00:19:43.880 dug into that one, but that's another one we could probably talk about sometime. But they

00:19:47.860 just, they functioned the way they functioned because that was their life. That was their

00:19:53.180 reality. That was the speed in which they progressed in their society. For another

00:20:00.460 society to come in that was catching up at that time to where Egypt had been 2,000 years before

00:20:09.520 them and called them the barbarians and say that they weren't civilized. It's like, really? Um,

00:20:17.780 okay. Not sure how you came to that conclusion, except that you're just full of yourself, but

00:20:24.280 okay. It just, that one, I would say that it just baffles me, but that one actually just pisses me

00:20:29.760 off because it just, why? How, why do you think that you're just so much more superior than a

00:20:38.500 civilization that was still outdoing you what you're currently at 2000 years ago yeah and i

00:20:45.960 think part of where my mind was just like having to like develop new neural pathways to understand

00:20:51.200 the story i know was entirely because so much of like you know i've done so much like self-guided

00:20:56.440 history learning as as an adult but just like my school life growing up in canada was just very

00:21:04.080 much like here's what history is it's like the history of like the british people and how they

00:21:09.560 you know and so in order for that to make sense you have to be like well they were the most

00:21:13.760 civilized they were the most and they were bringing civilization to all these places

00:21:17.500 so i've had to like unlearn that and wrap my head around like no they were colonizers and they were

00:21:24.860 just being horrible and they thought they were like you said like they were so full of themselves

00:21:28.900 they thought they were better but these ancient civilizations so just to read about the fact that

00:21:33.920 ancient egypt was like functioning and had been for like you said like the pyramids were ancient

00:21:38.780 to her like it was and also just to say i um so everybody knows like how and why did egypt reach

00:21:47.960 this point and it's entirely because this is some of the first like cities that stayed in one place

00:21:53.380 and that was because of the nile because they were able to have and once you have a civilization with

00:21:57.860 a stable farming landscape people stay put otherwise like other parts of the world people

00:22:04.920 England people just kind of like wandering around you know there's not a reason to stay but once you

00:22:09.560 stay put then you're like oh you know what it would be good if I had a thing to keep my animals

00:22:13.560 in place and then you invent the fence and then like once you have enough farms you're like oh

00:22:17.720 this is kind of like a little city let's you know figure out some roads or whatever like that's how

00:22:23.860 cities and civilizations develop because people are staying all in one place. And Egypt, just 0.92

00:22:29.000 because of the land, was kind of one of the first places where that happened. Well, I mean, it's the 0.99

00:22:35.820 desert. So if you find some place that you can survive and survive well, you're gonna plant your

00:22:43.560 behind right there and survive. Because everything else around them is the desert. What are you

00:22:51.580 accomplishing there nothing but dying so stay where you can survive and that's obviously the

00:22:59.780 more people that stay there the um the city just continues to grow because you have people coming

00:23:05.960 from other places plus you just have the people that just established it where i mean this natural

00:23:10.840 course of life you everyone starts popping out babies and your civilization just keeps growing

00:23:15.420 and growing so yeah it's and that's how it works if you think about ancient rome and greece and

00:23:23.020 everything else right they found a place that they they discovered they could survive and they just

00:23:29.900 built around that but it took europeans a lot longer to find the places that they could survive

00:23:38.300 than it did the egyptians yeah yeah i'm not saying that europeans didn't exist at the same time as

00:23:43.920 europeans because people existed all at the same time that's just how it works but the grasp of

00:23:51.000 what was going on around you they had a egyptians had a little bit better grasp of it than other

00:23:57.660 cultures and then also the desert aspect of it is part of why we know so much because it was really

00:24:04.480 dry like in other places where it's more wet the it's it's harder to look at the records they left

00:24:11.400 You know, like ancient Egypt, we have like papyrus scrolls and things that like these are still around, like the carvings on the wall, like the pyramids are there because it didn't turn into mud because it's sand because it's the desert.

00:24:21.560 Like so part of like a gift that we have to be able to look back at all this stuff is the just the dryness of it that sustained a lot of this history.

00:24:32.400 And think about how we even know it's there. Because, I mean, if you look at, I mean, just where I live, there's just a lot of sand and wind that covers things. And so you had, where the civilization there, where the population there started to dwindle and they started to go further, different places and whatnot. All of that stuff got covered over by sand.

00:24:59.780 so it took years to even dig all of that stuff out for us to be able to even see it and they're

00:25:09.480 still digging stuff out I mean you hear about discoveries all the time unfortunately you can

00:25:15.080 only dig at certain times because otherwise you're going to die because it's just too hot to keep

00:25:19.220 digging but all that stuff got covered by sand so it was just completely forgotten for probably a

00:25:27.200 couple of centuries, all this amazing, great stuff was forgotten. And someone finally saw

00:25:35.420 maybe the tip of an obelisk and was like, hmm, I wonder what this is. Started digging, realized

00:25:40.820 it kept going further and further. And I mean, the sheer number of years it took to uncover all

00:25:47.020 of that stuff that's over there. It's just, it's mind blowing because that just shows how long we

00:25:54.100 had been there to get that covered because they're not small monuments it took a while to cover all

00:25:59.660 that stuff with that much sand so it's just like oh just you know time is a weird thing and and we

00:26:09.300 can't our minds can't grasp um infinity you know our minds can't grasp really I mean how I have

00:26:17.720 trouble remembering what happened last week so you know how are we gonna think all the way back then

00:26:23.720 to what existed then, how long it was covered, how long it took to uncover it,

00:26:30.660 how long it took to decipher what they were reading.

00:26:33.540 I mean, that's years and years and years of just that.

00:26:38.040 It's kind of hard to even imagine how long that took.

00:26:41.480 So just for them to have existed the way that they did that long ago,

00:26:47.880 it's just, I'll probably never really have the appreciation I should have for it.

00:26:53.720 no and that's and i'm like at the beginning of where you are in terms of appreciating it i'm

00:26:58.740 just like wait what wait i was looking at like timelines i'm just like wait what how long ago

00:27:03.740 is this because in terms of this podcast the longest ago person i've ever talked about this

00:27:08.420 podcast was with you when we did nefertiti and now we're going like 200 years before that so

00:27:14.000 we're just going back and back and back but like you said like part of the story of hat which we

00:27:18.740 are gonna get into eventually um but like she was very well educated and part of her education was

00:27:25.740 she learned like the ancient hieroglyphic language like by the time she was around there was it's

00:27:31.560 like people now go to school and they learn latin or they learn ancient greek like her like egyptian

00:27:37.260 civilization had been around for so long that she was learning this ancient egyptian language that

00:27:42.620 to her was ancient like it had been so long and but she's so long ago from us i'm just like

00:27:48.740 oh my God, this is, I didn't appreciate how long the ancient Egyptian culture was a thing. I didn't

00:27:54.960 until now. Like I didn't know. A big thing. We're talking like thousands and thousands, like

00:27:59.600 10,000 years or something. Like it's, did not realize, did not appreciate. And now I'm just

00:28:06.120 like, oh my gosh, my little brain is blown. I think that's a big part of the excitement for me

00:28:13.000 about studying history is really just seeing that. Wow. I mean, think about where we are right now.

00:28:21.580 Yeah. You know, we've got AI and this and that and the other, we still don't have our flying

00:28:25.240 cars. When I was a kid, I just knew we were going to have flying cars by now. So I'm a little

00:28:29.760 disappointed in that, but it's like the excitement for me is to think about how they functioned the

00:28:37.660 way they did that long ago I mean they still they did things back then that we still can't

00:28:43.660 replicate today I mean and even though we have the big machinery that we have imagine the machinery

00:28:49.800 you would have to to build to be able to do the things that they did 10,000 years ago you know

00:28:57.400 it's just like that that's part of the excitement of studying history to me is to see that you know

00:29:04.340 people have always been smart and honestly i think they were probably smarter back then

00:29:09.800 than we are now to be able to come up with that in in a desert i mean think about that you're in

00:29:15.700 a desert and you came up with this stuff how how i i can't i can't no it just it reminds me of a bit

00:29:26.240 ago I was um doing an episode about or actually coming up listeners I will be doing episodes about

00:29:34.900 some um American Indian history like indigenous people and or I think it was when I was researching

00:29:41.600 like the Aztecs and it was just what I was reading was saying like because you know what happened

00:29:46.900 back then was like they had a certain level of technology and then the Spanish came and they had

00:29:53.140 a more advanced technology and so but what this book I was reading was saying was like

00:29:58.360 it doesn't mean that one group was smarter than the other it just meant that one group had more

00:30:04.860 technology than the other like people are people like people are still smart like whatever situation

00:30:10.240 you're in and you still see that today like whether you're born in you know America or if

00:30:16.520 you're born in like Haiti or whatever it's just like what you have around you people just kind of

00:30:22.600 like adapt to that so it doesn't mean that people in older centuries weren't were less smart it's

00:30:30.720 not the people I agree with you I think they're actually more smart I think there's a lot of 0.68

00:30:35.400 stupidity right now but um it's just the the how much technology do you have access to and that we 0.96

00:30:42.700 have things like you know medications that can help with diseases and stuff and that helps with 0.99

00:30:46.420 people if people live longer than maybe people get different or new ideas because they they have

00:30:52.460 more time to think but people were just as smart no matter where they were it's just the access to

00:30:58.880 technology is where you talk about like this society you know quote-unquote advanced how

00:31:04.320 advanced was it it doesn't people are exactly the same no matter what society they're in it's just

00:31:09.580 what do they have access to right and i mean i've i've talked to others about this where you know

00:31:16.200 the spanish came in and they weren't necessarily smarter they had a technology guns that the the

00:31:23.040 locals didn't have and they didn't have it because they didn't need it you know the spanish and the

00:31:30.340 english and they they all thought they needed to have that that was the progression of their society

00:31:35.940 was guns that wasn't needed in in the the new world that they they came in and took so naturally 0.89

00:31:45.240 to them they're thinking oh yeah we're this we're that we're we're the other they're the barbarians

00:31:49.680 because they don't have the technology that we have no they have what they needed for what was

00:31:54.620 going on around them like you said yeah exactly so you're right it's it's not about any anyone's

00:32:03.080 well they were probably smarter but it's not about people necessarily being smarter it's just about

00:32:08.680 they they were at the level they needed to be for their surroundings and all the places that

00:32:16.880 guns were used to take over they didn't need guns there that's why they didn't have them

00:32:21.640 they didn't have them in africa they didn't have them in mexico south america they didn't have them

00:32:27.240 here they didn't need them and when you read about ancient egyptians they had their slingshots they

00:32:35.620 had their swords they had all that kind of their catapults whatever they didn't have anything like

00:32:41.240 a gun because they didn't need it they had other ways of conquering their enemies you know hand

00:32:48.440 to hand combat has been the thing for everyone since the beginning of time hand to hand combat

00:32:53.880 then they started deciding to come up with weapons you know because then you started having

00:32:58.640 the bronze age and all that of making their weapons it's just all about where society is

00:33:04.020 at that time that society is where they need to be for where they are can't say that they're above

00:33:11.220 or beyond or below they're just they are where they need to be exactly and i think that that's

00:33:16.720 what i just i want to make sure everyone knows where you and i are coming from with this which

00:33:20.500 is i guess where i'm coming from i can't speak for you but just like the concept that people in 0.98

00:33:25.520 history were stupider like that it's like no everyone is just has been just as smart or stupid 0.95

00:33:32.360 in all different societies it just depends what technology you have access to and where i was just 1.00

00:33:38.300 astonished was the amount of just what ancient egypt had going on like the fact that they were

00:33:45.300 like people scribes were like writing down every little thing and that they had every like it's

00:33:52.120 like okay we're gonna go to school and you're gonna learn these things and i'm just like i

00:33:55.580 didn't know that there was societies like that, you know, 6,000 years ago. And there were societies

00:34:03.620 like that 10,000 years ago. And those societies were in Egypt. And that, so it's, so again,

00:34:08.360 it's not just like the people there were smarter. It's just like the culture had developed because

00:34:12.560 they had been in one place for longer. And this is what was going on.

00:34:16.460 Then you also had the different levels of society too. And we've talked about this before where,

00:34:21.120 you know, the farmer, they didn't know how to read and write. They didn't care. They didn't

00:34:24.420 need to know how to read and write. They needed to know how to grow their food so their family

00:34:29.060 could survive. Whereas it was different in the palace where the royal children, they were taught

00:34:34.960 to read and write. But then not all of them were taught to read and write, depending on what their

00:34:39.880 status was within the royal hierarchy. Some of them were taught to read and write, but others

00:34:45.660 were taught like hat was to read and write the ancient script whereas a kid born of a lesser

00:34:54.880 wife or just someone in the harem they would have maybe been taught the basics of reading and

00:35:00.140 writing so just in case for some reason one of you needed to be elevated because everyone else

00:35:05.060 died off at least you'd have some sort of basics of reading and writing we'll teach you the rest

00:35:08.720 of it later if you need to so you know it was about society but it was also about your part

00:35:15.020 your place in society on what you knew and what you didn't know that's really important

00:35:19.020 distinction thank you because yeah like we're talking about hat who is like as high up as you

00:35:23.460 could get in society so her experience is very different from like the daughter of a farmer

00:35:26.840 but again it's just like that doesn't mean the daughter of the farmer wouldn't have also been

00:35:31.020 a kick-ass ruler of the country it's just like hat was in a situation to do that and i mean

00:35:36.320 spoilers she was an amazing ruler of the country yes she was so hat so this is i just have this

00:35:44.840 kind of like little encyclopedia entry that i'm going to be referring to just to kind of like

00:35:49.240 so i don't forget any you know major life event of hers but please jump in you know this but like

00:35:56.740 please so i mean hat was born her whole life was kind of um not by coincidence but it was during

00:36:04.440 a time when egypt was thriving it was doing really well and i mean when she later took on

00:36:08.820 it's it's not like oh it's doing well what a coincidence like no she made it do well but like

00:36:13.880 this is part of where it's notable about her she's one of the first women to take control 0.98

00:36:20.840 in Egypt she's the first she's not the first female like quote-unquote pharaoh in Egypt but

00:36:27.940 she's the first person to take on that role when Egypt was not in crisis like there was some other

00:36:33.320 women who had taken on for a couple years because there was some sort of crisis but things were

00:36:38.480 stable so this is part of what's notable about her taking on the role she would later take on

00:36:44.180 because you know at one time I did read that it was assumed that for up until her at least the

00:36:50.840 past 70 years before her there were a number of women that were considered to be in charge

00:36:57.260 but like you said it was because someone had to step in as a regent or someone had to step in 1.00

00:37:03.260 until someone was found for them to be a regent for. It was always a dire reason why they had to

00:37:10.300 do it up until her. And I mean, you could probably consider her situation slightly dire,

00:37:16.440 but not quite what it would have been for the women that came before her.

00:37:20.420 Yeah. And I think that that is probably to her benefit in a way that there had in recent history

00:37:25.300 been these powerful women who are serving as regents. So it wasn't because I mean,

00:37:30.400 this egyptian society and this is also where i'm just like this is the earliest society i've ever

00:37:36.380 read about hats world but so it's easy i'm trying to not be like yeah the patriarchy whatever it's 0.98

00:37:44.380 like no like egypt had its own thing going on and it wasn't like men are great women are shitty

00:37:50.500 like it wasn't that but it was there was gender the way that gender was portrayed and the way 0.63

00:37:56.800 that it was understood in their religion.

00:37:58.080 And you know much more about this than I do.

00:37:59.820 So I'm waiting for you to jump in.

00:38:01.540 But it's like, you know, the gods,

00:38:04.000 it's like there's the male and there's the female.

00:38:05.800 And so we saw this later on with Cleopatra,

00:38:08.680 you know, where it's like,

00:38:09.560 there has to be a man and a woman. 0.58

00:38:12.240 Because Egypt totally believed in balance. 0.97

00:38:16.540 Everything had to be in balance. 0.97

00:38:19.140 That's why you have a male and a female god,

00:38:22.740 god and goddess,

00:38:23.840 that they pretty much do the same thing. 0.98

00:38:26.800 But you have to have that balance of the male and the female. And they had to have that in a society as well, where there has to always be that balance. Because if, I mean, everything, their souls, their minds, everything had to be in balance.

00:38:41.300 If they felt it was out of balance, then that's when they felt that's when the droughts came and when more plagues came because something was out of balance. 0.66

00:38:53.680 And so that's why you would never have a male ruling without a female.

00:38:59.600 Even if he didn't like that woman, he still had to have that woman there because they had to have balance no matter what.

00:39:05.940 And the thing about ancient Egypt is it wasn't about personal feelings with them.

00:39:10.220 That their society did not run off of that. It was completely based on the the ideas of of their society took precedence over anyone's personal feelings.

00:39:24.560 didn't matter what your feelings your desires none of that mattered no matter how ranking

00:39:30.840 high ranking you were high ranking priest king it didn't matter what you think what you want

00:39:38.240 does not matter it all is based on this is the idea that we have set forth on what this is how

00:39:44.220 our society is supposed to function and this is how it's going to go so everyone women more than

00:39:51.820 man, but everyone had to jump through a number of hoops to make sure that they were going along

00:39:56.560 with the idea of how that society was supposed to function. Because like I said, if it didn't

00:40:02.940 work that way, then, and there was, the Nile just didn't raise as high as it normally did,

00:40:07.860 then that's your fault because you tried to put your personal feelings in there instead of putting

00:40:11.520 the idea of what our society should be in place. So that was a major, major thing. It was the

00:40:18.240 balance it was the idea of what they felt egypt was supposed to be on all levels and that could

00:40:25.540 be stifling at times i would think because you almost are made to think that you can't think

00:40:31.080 outside of the box but we're going to get into thinking outside of the box what that really can

00:40:36.100 do for you but it just they were very very stuck in that and that was probably um it was probably

00:40:43.280 a good and bad thing for them honestly and that yeah no and that's that the culture is really

00:40:49.200 i think crucial and understanding when we're talking about hat story again where a lot of

00:40:54.460 the stories i've done in this podcast like because i do early modern history a lot of it

00:40:57.900 there's this a familiar sort of thing where it's like this is if you think about medieval

00:41:02.860 europe or renaissance europe it's like there's the family and there's the princess and we're

00:41:08.000 going to marry the princess to this other thing to make an alliance and she has no say in it

00:41:12.420 And so it's like that to me is a familiar trope, like that's a familiar thing. But in Egypt, it was, but you see in medieval, you see in Renaissance, there's like young women who don't like that. They run away with their lover or whatever, you know, there's like this sense of independence that is kind of romantic.

00:41:30.160 But in ancient Egypt, the culture was so tied in with the religious belief. And we see with Hat, she was incredibly spiritual and religious. And really, that was so important to her. And that sort of helped guide her for what she did.

00:41:44.660 But yeah, so when we're looking at, and I appreciate again in this, but Kara Cooney is saying like, every time I come in with a preconception, she's like, just so you know, like this was not considered weird back then.

00:41:57.220 Like that an eight year old girl would be married to a statue and learn about sex acts.

00:42:03.140 Like that's like, take away your preconceptions of what you think things are like, where it's like marriages are not about falling in love.

00:42:11.520 It's just about like, what is going to pay tribute to the gods?

00:42:14.960 What is going to create balance in the world?

00:42:17.600 So it's not like, oh no, she had to, even like hundreds of years later when Cleopatra

00:42:23.520 is on the scene and that's a whole different thing, right? 0.64

00:42:25.920 Because she was Macedonian and they'd come in and they sort of took on the Egyptian culture,

00:42:29.640 but not really. 0.90

00:42:31.120 Like she had to marry her younger brother because it's like, well, there has to be a

00:42:34.900 man and a woman. 1.00

00:42:36.100 And Cleopatra was like, fuck this. 1.00

00:42:38.300 I'm going to kill my brother and run off with Mark Antony. 1.00

00:42:41.520 Like Cleopatra to me, I'm like, that's a narrative that I'm like, okay, yeah, I get that. Like an independent woman, like, you know, who's not into what society wants, but where Hat was living, that's not the vibe. Like the vibe is very much just like, this is what the world is. And she respected that. And everyone around her respected that. 0.95

00:43:01.500 And so that's where, when we're telling the story, it's not like their society was so advanced in so many ways. And then where it's different from what, how I imagine an advanced society, I have to remind myself where it's like they did, this is pre-Christianity, right?

00:43:17.320 this is like 3 000 years pre a concept of like monogamy and you know women should be modest and 0.51

00:43:27.460 like sexuality should be hidden like that's not what's going on here at all and the gods should

00:43:34.740 never be sexual the egyptian gods are very sexual and it took me a minute to be like very sexual yes

00:43:42.380 Right. And there wasn't a shame around that. So it's right. Because this is like pre-Christianity. 0.58

00:43:47.680 I mean, look at the story of how everything exists. If you really look at that story, it is 100% sexual. That is how everything was created according to their culture. Whereas, you know, in Christianity, it's just this being decided all of a sudden one day I'm bored, I'm going to make something. 0.90

00:44:12.380 Here, let's throw some little peasant people on there and watch them run around and be dumb. 0.99

00:44:17.320 You know, that's not what it was in ancient Egypt. 1.00

00:44:20.360 It was a complete sexual act that created the universe, that created the gods and goddesses, that helped create the people. 0.62

00:44:35.800 It all revolved around sex for them.

00:44:38.460 And that is probably one of the things that once they started, the Egyptologists, once they started digging in and seeing what these hieroglyphs were saying, they were like, oh, God, no.

00:44:51.940 Yeah, they weren't cool people because it went against what they believed.

00:44:58.100 Exactly. And that's where people, I think, like the European Egyptologists would be like, oh, this was a backward society, quote unquote. 0.62

00:45:05.200 they were like savage or whatever and it's like no it's because so when we're telling the story

00:45:10.220 it's just like the concept of sex is very different in the story from anything I've ever read before

00:45:15.420 but because it was whatever 1500 years ago or 1500 2000 years ago like this is like

00:45:24.620 yeah society was different it was different and that's not bad that's not good that's not bad

00:45:30.960 that's just what it was like and this is what hats the world was like and I just want to fairly

00:45:34.240 represent what was going on in her world you know age was different um because we mentioned earlier

00:45:43.500 the um the lifespan was different you know now people are expected to at least get into the 80s

00:45:49.840 at the very least you can get a lot accomplished in 80 years people if you got out of childhood

00:45:55.900 back then you were expected to get to 25 30 years old max and if you got to there you were considered 0.97

00:46:02.800 to be an old ass person. So everything had to start earlier in life. You know, your understanding 0.56

00:46:10.060 of adulthood, your actions of adulthood had to start earlier in life because you just didn't

00:46:18.200 have a whole lot of time to work with there. And, you know, even though you might've gotten to age

00:46:23.100 13, there was no guarantee you were going to get to 14 because you could get hit by any kind of

00:46:28.500 plague any kind of disease any kind of anything you know or you could be too close to the river

00:46:33.860 at some time and a crocodile comes and snatches you out you never know I mean just so you when

00:46:42.540 we're talking about things and we're throwing out ages people please don't be freaked out because

00:46:46.800 just that's just how it was back then yeah exactly exactly and actually I was thinking

00:46:54.060 about this when we were talking about guns a bit ago like in this story at some points like the

00:46:58.120 pharaohs various people they go like hunting for hippopotamus and a hippopotamus is i think one of

00:47:03.100 the most deadly animals on earth you know like when i learned that i was like oh but they're so

00:47:07.920 like cute and like a disney cartoon it's like no those jaws will snap you in half and they were

00:47:12.680 going hunting hippopotamus in a pre-gun society like these people were fearless and they're huge

00:47:19.900 so you don't really you think oh they're huge they can't move fast those suckers can move yeah

00:47:25.080 They're so deadly. 0.90

00:47:27.140 And that's just like, that's what we're going to do for fun.

00:47:28.820 We're going to go hunting.

00:47:30.280 It's like, yeah.

00:47:31.040 And that's why you die when you're 10.

00:47:32.920 But also this is what's interesting.

00:47:34.320 So in the story, and again, like I really appreciate what Cara Cooney has done in her book.

00:47:37.900 She really dove deep and like was really interpreting things.

00:47:41.660 But also there's so much stuff for like, because the Pharaoh, like the man, the king would have several different sexual partners and they would, because they wanted to have as many children as possible because child mortality rates were so high.

00:47:54.040 so the fact where it's just like so the names of children weren't carved on things until they knew

00:47:59.640 that this person was like gonna make it so like things with like hat it's like we don't really

00:48:04.960 know how many children did she have like because they didn't record stuff like they didn't record

00:48:10.640 stuff until you're sure that this person is like gonna make it so there's a lot of yeah so there's

00:48:16.500 a lot of sort of question marks about it and that's an interesting thing um because if you

00:48:20.800 think about Akhenaten and even Tut, they recorded kids. I mean, you saw Stele of Akhenaten and his

00:48:33.560 daughters, all his daughters, and they were little, you know, and we don't even know how old

00:48:38.020 they got. They probably didn't really even get to like full, full adulthood, most of them,

00:48:42.560 but you still saw a hieroglyphs of them. And, you know, they talked about the infants that were

00:48:49.540 the stillborns of Tut, you didn't hear about anybody else talking about their stillborns.

00:48:54.820 And you know, there were plenty of them. So like she mentioned in her book, they had to suffer in

00:49:01.140 silence so much when it came to their children, because if the baby even survived the pregnancy,

00:49:10.560 did they survive the labor? If they survived the labor, did they survive to age one?

00:49:15.760 did they get to age two? How many babies were lost? And no matter what your status was in

00:49:24.260 society, how many women lost so many babies? How many women lost their lives trying to have 1.00

00:49:32.200 a viable baby? We have a lot of infant mortality rates today and a lot of women that aren't 1.00

00:49:40.980 surviving pregnancies and labors and look at our medical technology. Yet we still have so many

00:49:47.180 women that are dying because of childbirth. Imagine the sheer number of people back then 1.00

00:49:54.700 that just weren't surviving it because it just, it was too much a lot of times. And the thing is,

00:50:01.580 you got to think about a lot of times they were starting out very young having children

00:50:05.160 where their bodies really even fully prepared for what it was about to go through.

00:50:09.480 and people were they were probably a lot sturdier back then than we are now because they had to be

00:50:16.500 because you know their surroundings made them have to be sturdier um but you know if you got

00:50:22.740 someone younger having a baby you're just going to have that natural is this going to work is it

00:50:27.900 not going to work well and then the additional thing on top of that in terms of the royal family

00:50:31.640 is it's brother sister marriage right so like how many chromosomal issues are going to happen

00:50:37.900 when you're getting into generation after generation of incest which again this is where

00:50:41.940 we're just like this is the society and we're not judging it but like they wouldn't have known that

00:50:46.980 they were making their odds even worse and but see that's the thing you got to think about is

00:50:52.700 okay so all of these people that that rose to be able to sit on that throne how royal were they

00:51:00.040 really because like you said if it was a brother or sister there was going to be issues with that

00:51:05.260 baby they're just that's just genetically a fact but you had so many kings that would die and they

00:51:13.080 would have a son an heir that would come and replace them okay but that child nine times out

00:51:20.880 of ten that child was born of someone that you were not related to otherwise that kid would not 0.99

00:51:26.420 have survived the like the harem like you have all these different women and that's where in this

00:51:31.200 story um there's there's a couple sickly guys and then when you get sort of a sturdy guy who's able

00:51:37.100 to live a longer life yet guess who his mother is she's like this woman from the harem she's not

00:51:42.600 the sister she wasn't royal yeah and the thing is they were smart they had to realize that which is

00:51:50.340 probably why they did what they did with the harems and he's just he procreated as much as he

00:51:55.160 could because it was proven time and time again those were the ones that were going to succeed you

00:51:59.140 not the ones that you had with your sister. And it's, it's sad that I feel bad for the sisters

00:52:06.780 that had to go through that because what choice did they have? They, they just, they had to know

00:52:14.840 that their babies were just never going to survive. And they had to be a horrible way to

00:52:20.740 live life. I just, I can't imagine that because I mean, I have two kids and I know during both

00:52:26.800 pregnancies I was like okay you know anything can go wrong during any pregnancy and so I was worried

00:52:34.400 when I had kids I cannot imagine how worried they would have been knowing that the the pattern has

00:52:40.580 shown these brother and sister babies don't work out well and I wonder if just like the amount of

00:52:46.660 illness that was just around because it was such a long time ago and also just like the brother

00:52:52.100 sister babies and everything and just like infant mortality really young girls having

00:52:56.220 delivering babies like if like their death was so commonplace and I don't mean that people

00:53:04.240 weren't upset I just mean there was like a lot of death around them all the time and I wonder if

00:53:07.800 that's part of why as a culture they really clung to the spirituality and the religion and like the

00:53:13.140 belief in the afterlife and like if that was I would imagine that would all be tied into each

00:53:18.060 other because if you're seeing death around you all the time then you would find comfort

00:53:21.200 like people do today in religion by thinking about the afterlife when we're going to be together and

00:53:25.960 whatnot. You know, they, they really, that whole Egyptian society and culture really did pay a lot 1.00

00:53:33.120 of attention to death compared to life. Life was life. That was just, you know, just what it was, 0.91

00:53:39.740 but their life focused so much on death because death was literally right around the corner

00:53:47.440 for everyone at all times and it's just it's kind of a morbid thing to think about as far as you know

00:53:56.640 how our lives are today but to them that was just the way to view it otherwise you would just you'd

00:54:04.240 be curled up in a ball in a corner all the time if you let the death get to you the way we probably

00:54:10.700 would today if we witnessed that much of it because that just death was life to them yeah

00:54:18.100 and that's i think i'm sure we're going to come across other things but two things we've mentioned

00:54:22.420 now that in terms of like hat's world and what she's living in that is very very different from

00:54:28.260 the world that we live in now like firstly it's like the sexuality of it and the like the not a

00:54:34.460 sense of shame not a sense of embarrassment like that sex was just a matter of fact thing and it

00:54:38.980 actually part of their religion and the death just really because people today like everyone

00:54:43.460 lives like no one's ever gonna die and when someone dies it's just like someone just died

00:54:47.140 what like because we're all living in constant denial and that's just kind of what our society

00:54:51.360 is like so like those are the two cultural things that I'll try to keep in mind and I hope everyone

00:54:56.220 does when we're telling this story like this is the world she was living in and so as much as I'm

00:55:00.660 like picturing myself next to her and like living this with her it's like her cultural like I could

00:55:06.100 never understand what that's like to live in a society that's that different from the one that

00:55:10.080 we're in it but it works for them and it works for thousands of years and she made it work for her

00:55:16.140 so you know 50 minutes in let's talk about hat um but we can't start with her until we talk about

00:55:24.940 her father a little bit absolutely yes please talk about her father so that's tutmos how do

00:55:30.060 pronounce it tutmos i say tutmos tutmos the first the first yes he was not royal in any way shape or

00:55:38.140 form and this goes back to what i was saying where you know you kind of had to just grab who you

00:55:43.800 could grab to put in in place because you had to always have a king you just you did you had to

00:55:49.600 always have a king and then you would go periods of time where you might not have had a queen

00:55:54.100 you would eventually get one but you always had to have a king no matter what his age was tut

00:55:59.800 the first was older when he came into power because they needed to throw someone in there

00:56:07.180 quickly. And he took to it. It's funny, even in today's society where you look at Prince William

00:56:17.700 was raised to be a king. Prince Harry was not. He had a little different upbringing, a little

00:56:25.820 more freedoms probably in his world than William did. It would have been the same back then,

00:56:32.180 where, you know, the person that was expected to succeed, they would have been raised to be king.

00:56:39.860 Thutmose I was not raised to be king. He was just raised to be a guy. Like,

00:56:42.900 he wasn't even a prince. He was just a guy, right? He was like an aristocrat, but just...

00:56:46.940 But just a guy. He didn't know the ancient script. He didn't know all the ancient rituals

00:56:52.020 that a king was expected to perform.

00:56:55.640 He didn't know any of that.

00:56:57.260 He was literally like one of the first

00:57:00.640 learn on the job kind of people

00:57:02.540 because that's what he had to do.

00:57:05.480 But he was amazing when it came to the military.

00:57:09.780 And he is the one, I mean,

00:57:11.280 the 18th dynasty is widely known

00:57:13.700 as one of the richest out of all the dynasties.

00:57:18.280 He wasn't necessarily the first one

00:57:19.940 to start building towards those riches, but he is definitely the one that kickstarted the vast

00:57:25.740 richness that is known of the 18th dynasty today. Because he went and he conquered, he subjugated as

00:57:35.200 many people as he could, took whatever he could, brought it back to Egypt. And he, obviously they 0.98

00:57:42.140 built on large scales, otherwise they wouldn't have had the pyramids that were hundreds of years

00:57:47.280 old by the time he came along but he started building on a larger scale than his predecessors

00:57:54.240 you know two or three or four generations back because they didn't have the money that he brought

00:58:00.460 into the system from everything that that he conquered um and not necessarily he i mean they

00:58:07.560 wouldn't they would have talked a lot about what he conquered but he probably negotiated a lot of

00:58:12.020 stuff as well because to be a good leader you got you can't just go around just killing people and

00:58:16.800 taking it. You've got to be able to negotiate as well. We'll get into that with her later.

00:58:21.520 But he just, he came in and he set a standard and she saw that. She grew up with that. She learned

00:58:32.480 it. She absorbed it clearly. And I truly believe that there are so many people that are born gifted

00:58:40.440 in whatever it may be, music, art, whatever.

00:58:45.180 There are people that are just born naturally gifted.

00:58:48.900 Thutmose the First was naturally gifted at warfare, clearly.

00:58:53.640 She was naturally gifted at learning what was going on around her 0.71

00:58:58.480 and not necessarily trying to figure out how to make it work to her advantage,

00:59:02.900 but just learning how it worked and how best to work within what was going on around her.

00:59:10.440 She saw her dad where she would have known that he wasn't born royal. Everyone knew it. So she would have saw how he was successful regardless of no royal lineage. So why would she ever think that she couldn't be successful? It just, it wasn't natural to her.

00:59:27.180 he became pharaoh at an older age like as an adult and she was his first child and it's a

00:59:36.260 daughter and so the role of the first of the oldest daughter of the pharaoh she would have

00:59:43.120 been raised to become to marry the next pharaoh like she was going to be raised and that wasn't

00:59:48.800 just like oh you're the wife you're like the trophy it's like no like she would have been

00:59:52.800 And this is part of why she was educated so well, like she was going to be raised to become co-ruler later on.

00:59:59.480 Yep. And I haven't really ever found anything extensive about her mother.

01:00:05.580 Actually, the most I've learned about her mother was through Karakuni's book.

01:00:09.360 But her mother was of royal lineage.

01:00:13.840 And so she would have had knowledge that Thutmose I didn't have.

01:00:19.320 she would have definitely absolutely helped him along the way him being married to her was the

01:00:25.840 only thing that really solidified his rule because he was married to a royal but she also even though

01:00:32.380 they might not have had the mother-daughter bond type of relationship that we would have today

01:00:37.800 she would have been okay you're the first daughter you you need to learn this because that's just the

01:00:44.260 way it is and she would have put forth a lot of effort into making sure that her daughter knew

01:00:48.520 everything she needed to know in order to be able to function within the role that was expected of

01:00:53.840 her later on in life so I've always been a big fan of younger women learning from older women

01:01:03.800 and that's just how society has always been able to function and continue is you have to have the

01:01:12.440 older women teaching the younger women and i really believe that that hat's mom took that

01:01:18.240 seriously and taught her everything she thought she was going to need to know and then like i

01:01:23.580 said i think people are naturally gifted born gifted and i think hat was born naturally gifted

01:01:28.500 to where she she was taught all this stuff but she just understood it in a deeper way

01:01:34.020 no i absolutely agree and the impression i got from again karakuni's book was yeah that hat was

01:01:41.380 very much like her mother was there as kind of a role model of like here's what it can look like

01:01:45.880 to be like a powerful woman who's very educated and I think her grandmother was around as well

01:01:50.800 so I think she had I believe so yeah so I think she had and this is sort of like like you mentioned 0.76

01:01:57.220 before that the previous 70 years there'd been these various regents and stuff like women in

01:02:01.680 power and then like her mother was this very smart very savvy woman her grandmother is there 1.00

01:02:07.180 around potentially as well. And it's so much like, we still see this today. Like if you see

01:02:11.880 someone who is like you doing a thing, then you're like, okay, that's how you do it. I can also do

01:02:17.320 that. And so hat, she had all these skills. And I think she also benefited from, from a very,

01:02:22.320 from minute one, like seeing women around her who are thriving, seeing her non-royal father

01:02:27.680 thriving. Like, so she knew this was possible in a way that in a different family situation,

01:02:33.340 she wouldn't have had that kind of confidence. I don't know. I don't think she looked at it as

01:02:39.220 possible. I think she looked at it as inevitable. I like that. I like that. Yeah. I mean, think

01:02:44.260 about it. I mean, if that's what you're surrounded by and you're always being taught things that,

01:02:49.540 you know, no one else is being taught. Why would you ever think that owning the world

01:02:54.920 wasn't inevitable for you? No, absolutely. You're so right. And because she was being raised to be

01:03:01.460 because of the cultural understanding of the royal family it's like they were the incarnation

01:03:07.400 of the gods and she would have been raised being told like this is you at first she was the the

01:03:15.380 daughter and the wife she was the daughter of the king uh the wife of the god and later um sister

01:03:23.120 of the king um when she became regent but or when her brother came along but if you're told from day

01:03:30.580 one, you're God's daughter. You're told from day one, you're the king's daughter. You're told from

01:03:37.580 day one, you're the God's wife. How, I mean, I won't say she had the big head, but if you're

01:03:43.740 always being told that stuff, what else are you going to believe? And everyone who told her that

01:03:47.880 they're not just being like, you know, the way in church, it's like, this is the body and blood of

01:03:53.060 Christ. It's like, that's a metaphor. No, they're being told like, you are this, like you are a God.

01:03:59.680 So she's like, okay, I'm gone. Great. Like, let's go.

01:04:03.280 I mean, I imagine,

01:04:04.980 imagine knowing from like age three that you have that kind of power.

01:04:10.240 Yeah. Yeah.

01:04:11.280 I mean, in today's world, the way a three-year-old looks at things, I mean, 0.94

01:04:15.820 we would have been blowing shit up because we could, 0.97

01:04:19.120 but back then that was just your duty. 0.99

01:04:22.480 That was just how life was. And this is what you did. I, I mean,

01:04:26.960 I'm 50 and if I had that kind of power, I'd be like,

01:04:29.680 okay, I don't like you. Bye. I don't like you. Bye. You know, but they weren't like that back

01:04:35.440 then. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to mention just the siblings. So when she's a young girl,

01:04:41.300 she has two older brothers. They later die of various diseases potentially. But so

01:04:46.200 she would have been raised with the expectation, whichever one of them survived was going to be

01:04:51.100 the next Pharaoh and she would become his sister bride. But she also had a sister. And I wanted to

01:04:56.980 mention this because i love the name of her sister which is neferubiti which is like nefertiti but

01:05:04.040 neferubiti and later on in her life her sister died also young because like everyone was dying

01:05:10.620 everyone did and there i forget the details but there is some of the tomb like we we see from

01:05:15.780 the way that hat revered and remembered her sister that they were probably very close so

01:05:20.080 she had this close connection with her sister her mother's there like i like the female energy that's 0.99

01:05:25.840 around her i think that's but also think about okay so they the the king would procreate with

01:05:32.820 as many people as possible just to make sure that you know because you never knew who was

01:05:37.200 going to die at what time um it might have been sort of like that with hat and her sister where

01:05:41.780 there was no guarantee the hat was going to survive so you know her sister might have been

01:05:46.400 getting taught some of that stuff as well yeah not at the same level as hat because you know

01:05:52.460 She was there. She was the oldest. She was being taught that. But the younger sister was being taught some of it. So if she was the one they had to step up to be the daughter to do everything that was expected, she would at least have a foundation of what she needed to do, needed to know. And they could just build on that later on if they needed to.

01:06:12.640 So I would think that there would probably be a closeness between the sisters, not just because they're sisters and, you know, they would add different quarters than the daughters of the ladies in the harem, but because Hat was probably trying to help her understand some of the stuff that she was being taught as well.

01:06:28.840 Because, you know, Hat wouldn't have known when her last day would be and she would know that her sister would take her place.

01:06:35.860 so i think that there was kind of a a two-sided um reason of why they might have been close like

01:06:43.140 that yeah yeah just again you keep reminding me i'm like right because like anyone could die at

01:06:49.380 any minute and so they're all living just in case that happens to them yeah yeah so eventually what

01:06:56.860 happens is her older brothers die um and then there's a young little baby brother or i think

01:07:05.440 he's like a couple years younger than her and that's tutmos the second and his mother was was

01:07:12.100 his i forget he was very ill tutmos the second he so i assumed that it was a brother sister baby

01:07:18.360 but maybe not i know his mom um one of them had a mother whose name was isis right that was the

01:07:26.080 third that was tutmos the third tutmos the second i i could be wrong but i want to say

01:07:33.960 that she had some sort of slight royal connection, not strong enough to really be able to rule

01:07:42.560 herself, but strong enough to make her son a viable option to become king.

01:07:49.860 Oh, yeah. So I'm just looking up. So his mother was Metnofret. Metnofret. So she was a secondary

01:07:59.000 wife of tutmos the first and she had the title king's daughter like she's like on the royal side 0.92

01:08:05.060 yeah so but tutmos the second so half siblings and kind of surprised that this is who like she

01:08:13.660 was raised hat she was like a priestess of the of the religion like at a very young like age like 0.79

01:08:20.180 six or eight like she was officially married to the god wife of the god and so and then she knew

01:08:26.640 that she's going to marry her brother, one of them, because he was kind of the incarnation of

01:08:32.360 the God. Basically, she's married to him. And then they also, again, Kara Cooney's book,

01:08:37.060 but she mentions, and this is another cultural expectation. I was like, okay, right. This is

01:08:41.620 an incredibly long time ago in a different cultural context. So it's not like they're married. It's

01:08:45.500 not like the royal wedding, a Will and Kate. No, it's just like they're married. It's like

01:08:49.220 a religious ceremony. And then that's that. And it's two children and they're married at the end.

01:08:53.560 Like it's not. And that's something that's just so wild to me. It always has been. You don't read

01:09:00.320 about marital festivities in ancient Egypt. You know, other other countries might have sent

01:09:07.900 wedding gifts, you know, kind of of please still like us kind of thing. But you don't read about,

01:09:16.740 you know, grand banquets and all that kind of stuff. And that has always surprised me because

01:09:21.200 they did everything on such a large scale you know their buildings were large their

01:09:26.520 festivals were large they lasted some of them weeks and months why didn't they celebrate marriage

01:09:33.520 I don't that has always baffled me why didn't they celebrate that it was just you know someone

01:09:39.160 looked at these two they're standing next to each other okay cool you're married next yeah like

01:09:43.280 clearly it wasn't like culturally you know it was significant in the sense of like you know this is

01:09:48.160 this these two are married now but that really speaks to the fact that in their society that was

01:09:52.920 not that was not celebration no exactly exactly yeah and that's just that's weird because you

01:10:00.240 would think that that would be something big i just i don't know i just i've never understood

01:10:06.560 why it wasn't but i mean i guess they had bigger fish to fry on that one they had other things to

01:10:13.900 celebrate. Yeah. So they got married. We know they had one daughter. They might've had other

01:10:19.160 children. And the daughter was called, oh, it's also, it's almost Nefertiti, but it's not. It's

01:10:24.320 like Neferer is their daughter. She's around for quite a while. She is, which is surprising. 0.99

01:10:32.420 They were only half siblings. So that might've been the reason why she wasn't quite as sickly.

01:10:38.340 But a lot of those straight brother-sister children just didn't, they didn't quite make it, you know, maybe even to 10, you know, 10 or less, and they were passed on.

01:10:51.240 So I have to assume that the reason why that young lady lasted as long as she did is because they were only half siblings.

01:10:58.280 I can't think of any other reason because I don't know of any time where a full brother-sister child was ever sitting on the throne.

01:11:09.800 I feel like King Tut was and he was incredibly sick.

01:11:13.580 But were they brother-sister?

01:11:15.580 I don't know. I just have this sense of like ancient Egypt. There's so many little sickly guys.

01:11:20.000 And that you say that is funny because when you hear about sickly, you only hear about the guys being sickly. 1.00

01:11:29.180 You don't hear about the women being sickly. 0.94

01:11:31.540 It's always the dudes. 0.87

01:11:34.040 It's like, okay, yet you put so much on them.

01:11:39.260 They're the rulers.

01:11:40.640 They're the decision makers.

01:11:42.200 They're this, they're that.

01:11:43.180 But some of them couldn't even walk.

01:11:46.580 I mean, really?

01:11:47.860 Yeah. 1.00

01:11:48.380 go with the sturdy ones the ones that have proven they're smart that's the women and this is like 1.00

01:11:54.500 this is the sack of hat basically so she she marries her half-brother tutmos the second who 0.95

01:12:01.000 is one of these little sickly guys so they do have a daughter who is neferar neferer i stopped

01:12:08.440 trying to pronounce names a long time ago i just read them and keep going little nef nef

01:12:13.040 so i'm just kind of scanning this to see so again we don't know exactly although um ancient egypt

01:12:21.700 they did have like a 24-hour day and like we're able to sort of figure out years of things so we

01:12:26.960 don't know how long the two of them so they were like like the dad dies and then tutmos the second

01:12:32.080 is the new man pharaoh and hat is the woman equivalent like so like this is our pair of

01:12:39.980 men women kings but keep in mind how young they're both they both are they're like 13 right they're

01:12:46.260 like i mean like super they're kids yeah they are the new king and queen of ancient egypt and

01:12:53.520 supposedly making decisions when we all know even no matter how old the king was it was always

01:12:59.420 his advisors that were making the decisions but you've got these two children sitting on the

01:13:05.820 throne one of them sick as all get out and you're looking to them to lead a nation i i i mean i know

01:13:14.580 that's how their society was but honestly what did you think these kids were gonna do for you

01:13:19.280 in this era i don't want to take away any credit from hat and from other pharaohs for like

01:13:25.220 doing a good job but the all of society was built up that these were the incarnations of god like

01:13:32.300 there wasn't no one was trying to usurp the throne no one was trying it's not like you know

01:13:37.100 like in cleopatra's time everyone's killing everybody everyone's trying to take over in

01:13:41.540 hats time there was this understanding and because they were in peace time because the like the river

01:13:47.300 like was fertile like crops were growing everyone was okay so there wasn't unrest nobody was like oh

01:13:54.360 it's these two young kids are the are in charge like let's take over nobody was doing that because

01:13:58.920 everyone respected the position. And on top of that, she had been the god's wife for so long

01:14:06.800 before then that she already had a level of power by the time she became queen that demanded

01:14:15.240 everyone's respect that, I mean, at that point, no one was really going to question her because

01:14:22.140 she was she was bloodline royal she was the god's wife she had been performing these rituals

01:14:29.700 for years by the time she sat on that throne who in in the society the type of society that they

01:14:35.800 had who was going to question her no one well and also like you said earlier that the because of

01:14:42.000 people dying so often at young ages a young person was seen more as an adult than we would see them

01:14:48.000 So like, yeah, she was 12. She was 13 years old, but she had been God's wife since she was eight.

01:14:52.640 Like she was starting having babies like she was treated and seen as an adult.

01:14:58.200 Whereas we would be like, that's a kid.

01:15:00.740 She would have been wired differently than a 13 year old today because she understood the gravity of her responsibilities. 0.99

01:15:08.760 You know, a 13 year old today, you tell them to clean their room and they throw a fit and slam the door and they ain't cleaning shit. 0.96

01:15:13.560 where you know it's just there's no there's no gravity of responsibilities at 13 in our society 0.98

01:15:20.780 whereas in that society literally the world was on your shoulders you know and so you would just

01:15:28.780 carry yourself differently absolutely and I think what you said about how to her you know taking on

01:15:34.380 this role was inevitable and also I think just the thing about her gift and her power like I

01:15:40.100 think from a very young age partially because of how she was raised and the role models she saw

01:15:45.200 but i think she just carried herself in such a way and we see this throughout the rest of her

01:15:48.680 life that people just respected her like the charisma that this woman must have had like the

01:15:54.580 gravitas like people just unquestionably they're just like okay yeah no you sure like the power 1.00

01:16:02.680 yeah and um we talked about it with cleopatra where she had that that natural ability 1.00

01:16:09.340 um the major thing she had working against her she wasn't actually egyptian so she didn't have 1.00

01:16:15.120 the full support of the egyptian people you know hat didn't have that problem she was egyptian

01:16:21.180 her mother was royal bloodline her father was the king you just you don't question that person

01:16:28.140 and i think she from a young age too just because of that because she was you know an insider in

01:16:33.740 that way like people so she had really strong connections and i think we see that throughout

01:16:38.060 the rest of the story we're going to tell over the next 24 hours given the pace we're going at

01:16:43.300 but um i think she had really strong allies people were loyal to her like this was and this is

01:16:48.880 partially just because culturally like the royal the royal family was supported by society in

01:16:57.220 general right but easily that could have flipped if she hadn't been as good as she was right the

01:17:05.520 flipping at first would have been done by the religious leaders because religion, as we've said,

01:17:14.000 ruled everything around them. Religion was the basis of their lives. You know, the gods were

01:17:20.400 the basis of their lives. And so if anyone was going to turn on the royal family, it would have

01:17:25.140 started with the religious leaders and then trickled down to high society, all the bureaucrats

01:17:30.820 and whatnot, that would have supported the religious leaders in their belief that maybe

01:17:37.620 this person wasn't fit to be king or queen. Like you said, we're going to get to it. But

01:17:42.280 because the religious leaders had the faith in the current sitting king and queen, there was no

01:17:49.980 reason for anyone else to have any doubts. Or if they did have doubts, there was no reason for them

01:17:54.140 to voice them. And that was another thing that you never really think about. And she brought it up in

01:17:58.880 her book and it made me really pay more attention to it is you don't see a lot of inscriptions of

01:18:06.000 dissent you know people didn't sit and complain you would find it in graffiti here and there

01:18:12.320 from people that were just commoners that maybe didn't like something that was happening but for

01:18:17.980 the most part you you don't you don't read complaints they didn't you know they would

01:18:24.460 would um they would show support um you know with sometimes you'd see um different scenes of

01:18:31.940 of different celebrations and festivals that they had you would see you know they'd have like a

01:18:36.340 crowd or whatever chiseled in there but you did you don't you don't read about people being unhappy

01:18:42.060 with with how things are being done with the the current sitting king and queen and it wasn't all

01:18:50.020 sunshine and light you know it wasn't because it just couldn't have been with everything going on

01:18:54.220 around them but i do like the fact that they didn't dwell on the negative at least when it

01:19:00.480 came to what they recorded um they just they tried to just keep keep it pushing you know

01:19:05.980 we gotta just we have to just do life because we're only gonna be here for a short period of

01:19:09.480 time so let's just do life sitting and complaining isn't gonna fix anything let's just do what we

01:19:13.400 gotta do and i like that about them i like this about them and i think um like we're very early

01:19:19.340 on in hats like rain and whatever but like there's never that level of descent in and there's other

01:19:25.660 um so many other stories i've told on this podcast especially where women get into a 0.98

01:19:30.980 situation where they're in charge there is they spend half their time 75 of their time just trying 0.94

01:19:38.320 to deal with these like shitty men who are like oh i don't i don't believe you like i don't trust 0.94

01:19:43.820 you like hat was able to just do her thing because she was of royal blood like everything you just 0.97

01:19:49.620 she's a royal blood she was also so religious so spiritual like she was really devoted to this

01:19:55.800 religion so the religious leaders would never turn against her because she was number one religious 0.96

01:20:00.160 fan like so she could just get shit done she didn't have to deal with being like no trust me 0.81

01:20:07.100 no I know what I'm doing like everyone's like yeah clearly you do carry on right that's unusual 0.99

01:20:13.100 for me in this podcast to find a woman leader in a situation where she can just get shit done that 0.99

01:20:17.580 never happens good for her and that is like you said that is probably been the the um probably 1.00

01:20:24.840 nothing that has been the the major downfall of all the women in history that had any sort of power 1.00

01:20:30.160 is you always had these jackass men they were always trying to assert their authority over 0.99

01:20:36.120 the woman that was actually in charge and so they were just constantly trying to fight these dumb 1.00

01:20:42.360 asses to get anything done and nothing. And then of course, well, she didn't accomplish anything 1.00

01:20:47.020 in her, her time in charge. Gee, I wonder why, because she didn't let her. I mean, it's just,

01:20:56.260 it's the same way today where you have, you know, let's just say Congress, you have a woman bring a 1.00

01:21:01.740 bill to Congress and they're like, Oh no, even though they know damn well, that would be good 0.99

01:21:06.480 for the overall society. They're not going to let it go because a woman came up with the idea 0.99

01:21:11.760 instead of a man yeah no and this is where the sort of like me unlearning just not anything I

01:21:19.640 was ever specifically taught but just the impression I got from just like taking learning

01:21:25.020 history throughout my life until I started learning it myself as an adult it's kind of

01:21:29.840 suppression that it's just kind of like people society was bad society was backwards and we've

01:21:35.300 been getting better ever since and now today we're the best we've ever been no um you know it's like

01:21:42.380 and then it's like yeah there used to be racism but they solved that in the 1960s there used to

01:21:47.980 be sexism they solved that in the 1970s and now everything is great like completely wrong completely

01:21:53.800 wrong but when you look back at this where it's like the longest ago story i've ever read and

01:22:00.500 there's a woman who's in charge and everyone's cool with it it's not like oh yeah women didn't

01:22:05.300 used to have rights and now they have rights it's like no like out the gate like hat was doing it 0.96

01:22:11.520 and then things went then things regressed because if you think about it you know her her brother

01:22:19.100 slash the king he was sickly and he wasn't necessarily raised to be king not at all because

01:22:26.080 Yeah, he wasn't taught all of the royal etiquette and whatnot. 1.00

01:22:32.460 So you have this woman who is the queen in all rights, who is God's wife in all rights, that knows all this stuff, probably a year or two, maybe three older than this sickly little boy that doesn't know shit. 0.98

01:22:49.760 So, yeah, they're going to listen to her because really, what other choice do you have? 0.96

01:22:54.360 you know you don't want you they always want balance so why don't rock the boat if what she's 0.98

01:23:02.280 doing is not you know outside of what you really think should be happening fuck it do it you know 0.90

01:23:09.760 just try to bring your brother along with you get him on get him on in line kind of thing you know

01:23:17.080 I just I imagine that's probably what they were thinking was just just do what you know you need

01:23:21.440 to do just smack him upside the head and make him do what he's supposed to do kind of thing because

01:23:25.420 you know he was in there flailing he just whatever there was just nothing else he could have been

01:23:30.440 doing yeah and i think my impression and correct me if i'm wrong in egyptian history in general

01:23:37.140 like they really they had this culturally this really strong religious belief um the balance

01:23:42.940 and everything but they just saw like when the nile is the level is up and our farming is going

01:23:49.020 good and like that means the gods are pleased with us and if it goes and if there's a drought

01:23:54.580 they're like someone's doing something wrong so hat as much like i don't want to take anything

01:23:58.760 away from her but also she benefited from the fact that like the nile was good very much so

01:24:04.380 and but it wasn't just her that would have benefited from that anyone that was in charge

01:24:08.140 at the time that the nile was was acting right they benefited from that you know and those poor 0.70

01:24:16.600 unfortunate souls that were in charge when things weren't going right with the Nile and you know

01:24:22.000 your crops weren't growing your your livestock was dying those people they just got the short

01:24:27.300 end of the stick unfortunately that's who they questioned to be like oh they what they're doing

01:24:31.680 is bad but because the Nile was good when Hat was here they're like I guess she's going well

01:24:35.960 I wanted to point out though because I forgot to say and I found this very interesting

01:24:39.180 um so when hat and her little sickly husband they had their daughter neferer their child was a

01:24:47.920 daughter and generally they wanted to have a son then a daughter because they wanted to whatever

01:24:54.980 but in their society they blamed or gave credit to the gender of the child to the father like they

01:25:03.820 didn't blame the mother oh it's a girl and that's your fault and i'm like look at them you know you

01:25:07.860 look at henry the eighth or whatever he's like my wives keep having daughters where it's like

01:25:12.020 and we know now that like the chromosomally it is the husband it is they knew and i just

01:25:20.220 there's just so many things about ancient egyptian culture that you just have to love

01:25:24.860 because they were so practical and they yeah to them women were were a step below but they

01:25:34.600 weren't to be stepped on they were they were to be respected and revered and you just you have to

01:25:42.340 love that about them whereas you know like you said Henry VIII beheading people because they

01:25:48.540 weren't doing they weren't giving him the sons that he couldn't produce 100% his fault anyway

01:25:54.480 I just wanted to give ancient Egyptian culture credit for that because that was a nice thing

01:25:58.820 for me, Noreen. So she and her little sickly guy, half-brother, Tetmos II, they were co-rulers. 0.68

01:26:07.540 What this is, is like at least four and possibly as many as 12 years. So like for some time

01:26:12.460 before he, obviously what ended their co-ruler is that he died because he had

01:26:18.500 a million health problems. And think about it. If he did last 12 years,

01:26:24.100 that was a long time that was a long time for someone that sickly to be king for that long

01:26:33.280 because 12 years to them would be like 50 years to us just he um you know kudos to him for not 0.92

01:26:41.920 falling down some stairs or something and actually managing to get someone else pregnant to have an

01:26:47.720 heir that's true that's true so what happened is so he dies and then like the only child that the

01:26:53.180 two of them had who survived that we know about is Neferur, the daughter, but he had, there was

01:26:57.780 other women, there was other wives. And so he had various other sons. And then there's this,

01:27:03.040 I don't understand exactly, but it sounds like they put all the toddlers, all the little boys

01:27:08.480 in a room and then kind of waited for the gods to choose which one was going to be the heir,

01:27:13.140 which to me is just sounds really chaotic and just like a daycare. Just these little toddlers

01:27:19.840 just all like toddling around and the moms that they're chasing after them and out of these boys

01:27:23.960 one of them is chosen who is tutmos the third who's going to be the new baby king because hat

01:27:31.420 can't there needs to be the balance right like she can't be pharaoh on her own there needs to be a

01:27:37.240 guy and in this case it's a toddler it's her and you gotta think about okay why was he chosen was

01:27:43.860 he the one that ran the fastest was he the one that was climbing things more than the others

01:27:49.140 they would have picked the one that they thought was they had the best chance of surviving.

01:27:54.100 You know, were the other kids just, you know, just raggly little nothings that were sitting

01:27:58.060 in corners and picking their nose?

01:28:00.260 I mean, what was it about him that made him stand out in a room full of two and three

01:28:06.560 year olds?

01:28:07.400 You know, what was he doing that made him exceptional?

01:28:10.540 I know.

01:28:11.400 Well, and I'm just picturing just like, I mean, you have children, but also like I did my

01:28:16.180 time babysitting as a teenager.

01:28:17.760 and there's some little kids like little boys who are just like beefy like there's some little boys

01:28:23.780 we're just like whoa like that kid is just like if you push them they're not going to fall over

01:28:27.560 it's like there's some and i'm like i picture him as that sort of little kid who's just like

01:28:31.060 yeah just solid i mean my boys are night and day my oldest i saw him fall off the monkey bars and

01:28:39.560 bounced literally bounced when he hit the ground he went oof he stood up shook it off kept going

01:28:46.800 my younger son if he felt the monkey bars at that age i probably would have had to take him to the

01:28:53.280 hospital because he just wasn't built the same way so just the difference in my boys alone you

01:28:59.560 can see the difference in kids so he had to have stood out in some way maybe they saw him maybe

01:29:05.120 maybe they saw him fall and he just bounced right back up they're like that one well because they

01:29:10.220 did they did like again this is like a lengthy story but like they chose the right one because

01:29:14.780 Thutmose III lived a very long life, like in his 50s at least.

01:29:18.360 Like they chose a healthy child.

01:29:20.180 Yes.

01:29:20.480 And he was active, you know.

01:29:23.840 He didn't just sit in the throne room and dictate and visit the harem here and there

01:29:28.300 to try to build another stock of boys.

01:29:31.060 He was active.

01:29:32.380 He was militarily active.

01:29:34.760 He was hunting active.

01:29:36.640 He was a sturdy guy.

01:29:39.260 Definitely, yeah.

01:29:39.920 Out of that room, like somehow they were able to tell like that one. 1.00

01:29:42.880 that with the chubby cheeps chuggy cheeks that baby with the like big legs like yeah that one 0.93

01:29:48.580 that's who it's music plowed over the other two to get to the toy that he wanted actually i bet

01:29:52.960 that's what it was they're like oh just like tempo's the first look at that guy he's good

01:29:57.260 at warfare he's a baby so at this point hat so she's in her 20s by this point so it's her and

01:30:04.840 again like a bit of it i'm like oh this is like the cleopatra situation it's like she's this

01:30:09.480 capable woman in her 20s and she has to marry this baby. But it's not like Cleopatra in a sense

01:30:15.360 because she has the support of everybody. And she's the royal one. He's not. Because

01:30:22.620 even though he's the king's son, his mother had no royal lineage that they know of. Even though

01:30:28.300 her name was Isis, which I love, but she had no standing in society. She was just there and she 0.99

01:30:35.780 just happened to produce the most sturdy baby that was it so you know even so tutmos the third

01:30:42.780 was really really young but he was the king because he was the king's son but you've got

01:30:50.280 hat who is in her 20s who is royal oh you know just and she has all the titles that she has

01:30:57.680 she's had those titles for years she has been seen by how many people she has the support of

01:31:03.380 how many people and she has for years she just there was there was no way that this was going

01:31:08.880 to play out any differently let's be honest there was no way this was going to play out any

01:31:13.400 differently for her she was going to be regent she was going to be regent and she was going to

01:31:19.920 be a good one well and like we said too like in the recent history there have been lots of

01:31:23.980 situations where like an adult woman was the regent for a very young boy so everyone's like

01:31:28.620 okay this is what's gonna happen um hat's gonna be kind of i mean it's a different situation

01:31:34.100 because it's not her son it's but it's her nephew nephew slash stepson but hat was like this is

01:31:43.640 where things take a turn because she's like okay like am i going to be the regent so she goes to

01:31:49.480 the temple to she's so spiritual she's so religious and she goes to the temple and what

01:31:54.240 she says happens there she like talks with the god and she comes out and she's like god says i

01:31:59.240 should be king actually not regent i should be king that's what the god said and so let's do that

01:32:06.300 now so let's make that happen and cool i'm gonna be over here and see the thing about that is is 0.63

01:32:13.080 though anybody else that that would in her position that hadn't been god's wife if they were just a

01:32:20.980 daughter or a wife, whatever, if they hadn't been God's wife and they tried to come and say,

01:32:26.800 oh, while I was in my sacred space doing my sacred rituals, the God of all gods told me this.

01:32:36.420 If someone else tried to say that, they would not have believed them. They wouldn't have. They'd

01:32:41.180 have been like, screw you. Gods don't talk to you. But because the God had been talking to her 1.00

01:32:47.720 for so many years and everyone believed that the God was talking to her. For her to come up with

01:32:53.980 something like that, even though it sounded asinine to them at the time, I'm sure, they didn't have

01:33:00.300 enough anything, any belief to refute what she was saying because she had proven herself as God's

01:33:07.580 wife for so many years. They really, I think, felt they had no other choice but to believe her,

01:33:13.680 whereas anyone else, they probably would have had her killed or something because she was

01:33:17.620 claiming false things about the gods so she just i'm sorry she was just she was literally set up

01:33:26.140 from birth to do what she did i don't see that she had any other future for her honestly i just

01:33:34.740 really want to clarify just so everybody understands like the audacity of what she just did

01:33:40.020 because what had historically happened in this sort of situation would be that

01:33:45.200 But so the word, we're using the word king, but like ancient Egypt had different words.

01:33:49.680 Like even the word pharaoh is not necessarily a word that they use.

01:33:52.100 That was just when it was applied.

01:33:53.200 But the word that they had that meant like the person in charge, like the ruler was king

01:33:57.060 and it was a male word.

01:33:59.000 And so that was the name given to, if you have this like man, woman pair who are in

01:34:03.840 charge, like that's given to the man and the woman is, she's always a step below, like

01:34:08.960 although they're partners, like he's the main one in charge. 0.67

01:34:11.160 And if she had been the regent, what that would have meant is that she would just kind of be in charge until Thutmose III came of age and then she kind of stepped back. But what she was like, she's like, no, we're going to be co-kings. Like he and I are equals. Like she's giving herself the title of king as an equal to him.

01:34:32.460 And then we start seeing that. I mean, he's a baby at this point, but like in the artwork, like they start being drawn.

01:34:38.820 She's in front like of him, usually if it's the regent or if it's the wife, like they're behind.

01:34:44.320 So she's claiming this male title as a woman, which is so fascinating.

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01:38:02.440 But you know, one of the reasons why she was able to get away with that is she didn't do it right away.

01:38:07.160 True. 0.99

01:38:08.160 And she played the role of regent. She played the role of, I'm doing this. And she probably was, this was her focus during the entirety of her reign. I'm doing this for the betterment of Egypt.

01:38:22.040 so she played regent you know she let them put him in front on on anything that was carved whatnot

01:38:31.920 she she was just buying her time honestly because had she tried to walk in from day one 0.99

01:38:38.720 and claim she was king co-king that would not have gone over well it it wouldn't because 0.99

01:38:45.500 the audacity of a woman to try to put herself equal to a man even though they didn't hate women 0.99

01:38:51.860 in that society, they still felt that women had their place and she would have been stepping 0.50

01:38:56.280 outside of her place. I saw something that Kara said at the very beginning of her book,

01:39:00.800 that if a woman doesn't immediately renounce ambition, she will always be viewed as being

01:39:07.280 selfish and doing everything as far as her own personal motives behind everything she's doing. 0.92

01:39:14.220 She didn't start out like that. She started out as, I'm helping him, I'm helping Egypt,

01:39:19.200 until she realized just how much power she had.

01:39:24.540 That's when she said, okay, screw this.

01:39:26.780 I'll be co-king.

01:39:28.320 I wonder if part of it,

01:39:29.560 like I'm just imagining her psychology

01:39:31.080 and part of it, I do believe she was so religious.

01:39:34.520 She was so spiritual.

01:39:35.480 I think even if there's a little voice in her head

01:39:37.700 being like, you should be king,

01:39:38.920 she'd be like, that's the God.

01:39:40.200 That's the God telling me that.

01:39:41.420 That's not my own ambition.

01:39:42.480 Like she's not doing this for herself

01:39:45.360 or she doesn't realize she is.

01:39:47.400 But I wonder if she's just like,

01:39:48.400 she's being the regent and she realizes it's like I want to do this this this and they're like oh

01:39:51.960 actually you can't decide that that's for the king and she's like really really okay well then

01:39:56.880 I'm going to be the king like you know because I'm going to do this this and this yeah so one

01:40:02.800 of the things that she did was she had and this is part of why we know about hat like because of

01:40:08.400 these monuments and buildings that she commissioned and part of it is she did these great obelisks

01:40:13.520 and she did everything in stone we need to make sure that we we bring that to the forefront

01:40:19.960 because for the most part things were built out of mud bricks back then because stone was expensive

01:40:25.380 and it took longer to to chisel out it took longer to to shape you know it just it took

01:40:32.100 longer to quarry it took everything about stone took longer and it was more expensive but she

01:40:39.180 did all her stuff out of stone she didn't do it out of mud brick like everybody that came before

01:40:44.800 her very few men did things in stone and she was like screw all you i'm doing it in stone because 1.00

01:40:53.160 you bitches you you were weak and you're not gonna you're not gonna stand the test of time like i'm 1.00

01:40:59.540 going to and you know she was looking at it in slightly in that way because that's just how they 1.00

01:41:04.800 always looked at everything was for eternity. That's why they did what they did as far as

01:41:10.320 putting all the riches and all that stuff in the tombs is so you would have everything you needed

01:41:14.080 for the rest of your eternity. She was doing this to ensure that she would be known for the rest of

01:41:20.220 eternity. And hats off to that woman for being that forward thinking on everything that she did

01:41:28.200 because she wasn't doing it just for the moment. She was doing it for eternity. I mean, think about

01:41:34.420 that because we can't wrap our heads around eternity we can't imagine never ending she was 1.00

01:41:40.620 looking at it as i'm going to be never ending let's do this that's a badass woman right there

01:41:47.080 and also she like the benefit of her father like you talked about the places he conquered and stuff 1.00

01:41:53.940 like he was bringing supplies in from other places like the country could could afford this

01:41:58.720 at this point i just just the scale of this so this is kind of one of her first big projects

01:42:03.940 she did as king which is so these what are they called the obelisks so it took uh seven months

01:42:12.680 for these to be made each one is 185 feet long so they had to be transported down the nile so they

01:42:19.840 had to build special 300 foot long barges to get down there yes towed by other ships 864 people

01:42:27.960 rowing. Once they arrived at the Karnak temple, which is the home of Amun-Ra, the king of the

01:42:34.180 gods, the obelisks were sheathed with gold. So I'm mentioning this just because this is where

01:42:40.980 she starts with her building career. Starts. That's the thing that you, she starts with all 1.00

01:42:47.720 of that. I mean, who starts that grand? She didn't make her way up to this. This is where she started,

01:42:52.880 But the engineer in charge of this whole thing, so I guess the carving, but also the transportation is this guy who I want to bring up, who is Sennenmut, who had been, he'd been serving Hetschepsut as a steward during the reign of Thutmose II, the little sickly boy husband.

01:43:09.960 and then because he successfully oversaw this impossible task so this gave her the confidence

01:43:19.100 that she promoted him to various different high positions in the realm including the tutor to the

01:43:25.540 daughter princess neferer and i want to talk about that there's pictures in the book but you can look

01:43:30.040 them up too so there's senan mut is an interesting guy because he was just like i'm great look at he

01:43:37.760 there's so many statues he made of himself and like non-royal people did not make this many

01:43:42.640 statues of themselves and all the statues of himself it's like him with neferer the daughter

01:43:47.560 it's always him with this little child so it's always showing his like proximity to the royal

01:43:52.760 family so it's like him and this little kid it's always him teaching this little kid and that makes

01:43:56.960 some people be like oh is he secretly the father of neferer and i don't think so i don't think

01:44:02.380 hat would never have done that but especially at that point in her life but i think it was just

01:44:07.600 sin and mutt being like look how important i am he couldn't put himself with her so he

01:44:12.860 because he didn't come from anything so you know since he since no one can trace where he came from

01:44:19.020 of any kind of importance once you get a level of status like that you're gonna be like look at me 0.99

01:44:27.720 bitches i grew up in the same stupid little village as you but look at me now where are you 0.99

01:44:33.600 at kind of thing i mean if you had the the money and the opportunity to be able to rub it in the 1.00

01:44:40.900 faces of people that probably tortured you when you were a kid who wouldn't do it is this where

01:44:45.140 the story like so much of this story some of i'm just like oh culturally it's very different but

01:44:50.440 just the people feel so familiar to me as the people like this reminds me of somebody who like

01:44:54.680 you know gets goes viral from a reality show and suddenly he's on instagram being like look at me 0.94

01:45:00.200 i'm on a private plane look at me i'm hanging out with drake like that's the vibe of sun and mud 0.86

01:45:05.180 he's just like this guy who came from nothing and now he's at this high level and he's just like 0.80

01:45:11.140 suck it haters like yep in statue form yeah i can't lie i probably would do the same thing 0.69

01:45:17.860 if all of a sudden i had some sort of level of high society whatever i'd be like yeah see 0.99

01:45:24.280 you dogged me back then but guess what i'm about to go get in my maybach and you're getting in

01:45:29.820 your toyota deuces yeah so sentiment you know it's it's a relatable thing but also like he did

01:45:35.880 oversee this like i don't know how many people could have figured out how to transport these

01:45:40.860 185 foot obelisks exactly people are naturally born gifted with things that they're very good

01:45:46.940 at and he was very good at that and that's the thing that she she was gifted enough to be able

01:45:53.340 to recognize another gifted person because, you know, you didn't get promoted within those ranks

01:46:02.640 easily. You just, you didn't. And so for her to recognize his gifts, to feel that she could trust

01:46:10.960 him enough to do the things that he did, she seemed to have been a pretty good judge of 0.98

01:46:17.860 character yeah he might have been an asshole when it came to trying to show off what he had compared 0.99

01:46:23.420 to others but that didn't matter to her fine do your thing whatever they ain't got shit to do with 0.99

01:46:28.220 what i've got going on over here he was able to do what she needed him to do and she knew she could

01:46:33.800 trust him to get it done and that to them back then meant the world because you know by the time

01:46:40.540 you got cleopatra like you said everyone was stabbing everyone in the back and it's not that

01:46:44.840 people weren't stabbing each other in the back back then it just wasn't as prominent but if you

01:46:50.020 pissed off the wrong person back then it's gonna catch up to you it's that's just human nature he

01:46:56.920 did what she needed him to do he understood his place with her therefore he just kept climbing

01:47:04.420 i i admire this about hat that you know is this person raised from the minute she was born to be

01:47:13.180 like you were the incarnation of the goddess, like you are the most amazing person that she

01:47:17.900 would see in like a common born person. She's like, actually, who's that guy like that? I like

01:47:22.660 his skills. Like I like that. She could think outside the box in that way and like promote him

01:47:27.740 and keep him there as kind of one of her guys. Like, and I think there was some other people in

01:47:31.580 her that she had around her who she just in a similar way, she saw them, she saw their skills

01:47:37.000 and she saw that they were useful. You know, she wasn't just being like, Oh, who should I promote?

01:47:42.160 oh that's it's not a nepo baby it's like oh that's the son of the priest great let's give 1.00

01:47:46.440 him the job she's like who's good for the job like let's oh it's that guy it's that guy from

01:47:51.060 that farm sure okay like i appreciate that about her and i think there's there's something we might

01:47:57.380 have um skipped over that we should probably bring attention to is even though she was very

01:48:04.620 well established within her religious place. The priests of Amun had a lot of power because with

01:48:13.780 the exception of her, no one else could commune directly with the gods. It was only the priests

01:48:20.300 that could do that. You had to pay the priests to say prayers to the gods for you. You weren't

01:48:26.020 allowed to pray to the gods and get anything accomplished on your own. The only way your

01:48:31.260 prayers are going to be answered is if the priests did it for you. So if the priests didn't like you,

01:48:36.460 if the priests didn't support you, you weren't going to get anywhere. So since everything really

01:48:41.920 truly revolved around religion back then, she would have needed the full support of the priests,

01:48:47.820 the whole religious faction of Egypt. She would have needed their full support.

01:48:53.500 What is the one thing that is all you're going to guarantee someone's going to support you?

01:48:57.320 money. She, while regent, was going on military campaigns and resubjugating the Nubians,

01:49:06.220 taking everything that they had, bringing it back to Egypt, filling the coffers, 0.92

01:49:09.940 which in turn would be filling the coffers of the priests, thus guaranteeing their support

01:49:16.180 in anything that she would want to do in the future. So she had an exceptional understanding

01:49:24.440 of how the world around her worked in order to get what she wanted. She could not just come out

01:49:31.880 and say, God said I was supposed to be king and everything was going to be on, everyone was going

01:49:36.000 to be on board with that. She had to say it and then slide a couple of dollars across the table

01:49:42.140 and be like, so you believe me, right? And then if they supported her, if the priest of Lamun

01:49:48.040 supported her, no one could dispute that. But the only way they were going to support her is as long

01:49:53.460 is she was being very religious.

01:49:56.080 She stuck to everything she needed to

01:49:58.860 when it came to the religion, 0.55

01:50:00.220 but she was also filling their pockets. 1.00

01:50:03.520 That's fully guaranteed support right there. 0.94

01:50:06.880 That's such an important point.

01:50:07.920 Thank you for bringing that up

01:50:09.120 because I don't want to be like,

01:50:11.200 wow, she's such a natural leader

01:50:12.740 and everyone just believed her

01:50:14.280 and everything was great.

01:50:15.200 It's like, no, she knew that this was like,

01:50:17.300 I don't want to say corrupt,

01:50:18.480 but she just knew like,

01:50:19.540 this is the way that the world worked.

01:50:21.520 And she knew this is what she needed to do.

01:50:22.980 and so she did that thing she wasn't because we've seen people like who is nefertiti's husband

01:50:27.660 the akhenaten akhenaten was just like i had this vision we're gonna change religion and everyone's

01:50:33.060 like no we're not but he's like this is my divine like no no one followed him but people were on

01:50:39.160 board with her because she knew how to deal with people she knew that you you can rock the boat

01:50:47.140 but only to a certain extent once you get that boat tilted over to one side to a certain level

01:50:53.940 then you're going to have to do some other things to make sure you can tip it a little further

01:50:57.960 otherwise you're going to fall off the boat because no one is going to support you so i mean

01:51:03.520 you got to give her you got to give her so much credit she was she was obviously a natural born

01:51:08.600 leader she just was but she was smart about it she was smart about how to get everyone else on

01:51:15.280 board with her being a natural born leader and that that's a mistake that people have made

01:51:21.020 throughout time is you might have been a natural born leader but if you don't have the support of

01:51:27.060 the people who in turn have power over other people you're not going to get anywhere you

01:51:33.960 could be the smartest person in the world but if no one believes you no one supports you

01:51:37.260 you're just another person she was determined she was not going to be just another person

01:51:42.380 so she did like i said what she had to do in order to have everything all her ducks in a row

01:51:48.580 to be able to be like boom i'm king i'm co-king this little boy yeah he's here but we ain't

01:51:55.180 really we don't talk about bruno just we're gonna be doing what we're doing this is like um there's

01:52:02.860 so many books that are like how to be a leader like napoleon or whatever you know like there's

01:52:09.500 people who are Alexander the Great or whatever. And I feel like there's a real opportunity here

01:52:15.060 for somebody to write a book about like leadership lessons from hat. Like how did she do it? Like

01:52:20.140 people don't know this and people need to know this every, how you just explain that. I'm just

01:52:24.220 like, yeah, yeah, she did. Like she, you can, you can have all the skills, but you need to also

01:52:29.940 understand, you need to get people on your side and you need to understand how to get people on

01:52:34.160 your side. And that's, I think what's missing from a lot of ambitious people who just never make it.

01:52:38.580 Yeah. And you're not going to hear about her the way you should for two reasons. She existed so long ago. And she was a she. So those two things right there are going to keep. I mean, they don't really want to teach what happened in the 50s. So why are they going to teach what happened three or four thousand years ago? That's not going to happen.

01:53:04.980 Yeah. And it's like, you know, and even though it might not have been recorded, even though they would have denied it if you asked them, I promise you, Caesar and the likes of his peoples, they studied her.

01:53:21.480 they had to because if you want to be a great leader you have to learn from the other great

01:53:28.740 leaders you can be born with natural abilities but you still need to learn and i promise you

01:53:34.300 they knew who she was no and that's the thing like the records of her did continue and actually

01:53:39.560 that's the next thing i had it ties in perfectly with what you're just saying it's like her going

01:53:44.020 on campaign and stuff like that so um and she was going she was going on campaign like she was there

01:53:49.660 with the troops physically there yes so she's going on campaign down into the land of kush

01:53:55.000 which is now northern sudan area they need to control that area for economic reasons because

01:54:00.960 it was a source of gold and other luxury projects and so she was not just kind of sitting back

01:54:07.480 and kind of like letting you know like her father did all this stuff she wasn't just being like great

01:54:12.340 he did that and i'm just gonna like hang out here she was preserving her father's empire so there's

01:54:17.380 statues or carvings in art like we see her portrayed as a lion trampling Egypt's enemies

01:54:24.260 there were sphinxes created with her face on it like she was like a lot of them a lot of sphinxes

01:54:31.980 which is also like a masculine thing right so this is where it's interesting to me too

01:54:37.300 like I've had a couple episodes of this podcast where I'm looking more at like gender and history

01:54:42.960 and stuff like that and i think her portrayal is really interesting because at first when she's

01:54:47.440 when she's the wife of tutmos the second in art she's portrayed as like she's the woman and she's

01:54:52.980 like full feminine yeah and then when she at first when she becomes king she looks still

01:54:57.880 full feminine but wearing you know the headpiece of the king like you could still see like her 1.00

01:55:03.840 silhouette like she's got breasts and then as her reign goes on towards the end of it she start

01:55:08.580 in artwork she's she looks identical to tutmos the third like they're both it's a male portrayal

01:55:14.400 and it's interesting we'll never really know what changed but i think she was just kind of like

01:55:19.700 i am the king but i'm also a woman but later in her life she was like no i'm equal to him like

01:55:24.700 we are both men like in art but she still used the pronoun yeah exactly she never completely

01:55:31.400 got rid of the fact that i am a woman i'm gonna make sure you all understand i am a woman however

01:55:37.860 However, I'm taking over this male role and you're just going to have to deal with it. She never, ever denied her female side. That, I think, goes along with that other thing of people not looking at her as just being ambitious for ambition's sake, where she was just trying to do it all for herself because she wasn't trying to hide who she was.

01:55:58.580 She wasn't trying to convince everyone that I need you to view me this way and this way alone. 0.79

01:56:04.140 She wanted everyone to view her as, yes, she's co-king. 0.55

01:56:07.500 But remember, I'm still a woman. 0.92

01:56:10.440 And that is a level of audacity I want to get to.

01:56:15.700 Because, I mean, that was bold.

01:56:18.940 And even in Kara's book where she talks about how the scribes and how the people carving these different things, they're probably confused as hell.

01:56:27.820 because they weren't really versed in how high society spoke and how they interpreted things.

01:56:34.760 And it's like, why am I carving a guy, but I'm putting she? This doesn't make any sense,

01:56:39.980 but whatever. That's what I was told to do. So that's what I'm going to do.

01:56:42.940 They probably went home every night telling their wives, do you know what the fuck I had to do today? 0.99

01:56:48.440 Imagine those conversations. But I just, I love that about her that she never 0.98

01:56:53.400 tried to be a man she was always in from what i'm gathering in in actual life very feminine still 0.95

01:57:02.540 she just portrayed herself on the monuments as completely equal to to her co-king to her husband

01:57:12.060 to her nephew whatever it is that she thought of him as and i love that i love that i mean you can't

01:57:19.140 really get too much more bold than that it's really really really interesting especially

01:57:23.680 just in the in the context of like because she was like i'm a woman and i'm taking on this role

01:57:30.220 that is a man's role and she's changing the role to fit her instead of changing herself to fit the

01:57:37.120 role you know yep exactly it's kind of like i don't know if you think like a woman who's becoming

01:57:43.620 a politician or entering some business it's like i'm gonna wear a blazer but her vibe is like i'm

01:57:48.100 it's like i'm gonna wear a blazer but inside of the blazer i'm wearing like a party dress like

01:57:53.940 it's like i'm still me even though i'm wearing kind of the trappings of the king i'm still

01:57:58.760 it's really it's interesting and just all like we're not gonna get into this don't worry i'm

01:58:03.480 not gonna ask you to but just like the conversations that happen today about like

01:58:06.540 gender and sexuality and stuff where it's all like men are men and women are women

01:58:09.840 people who are not me are saying but where it's like well hat was kind of like what is gender

01:58:15.620 She was very fluid with it. I totally agree. And I think that as obviously, you know, the men were in charge, blah, blah, blah. But overall, I think they were very fluid with human beings in general. Fluid with, I mean, men have been with men, women have been with women since the dawn of time.

01:58:40.260 That's, I mean, that's just human nature. It's going to happen. It's whatever, you know, love is love. So it's like, I think Egyptians, they were very fluid with it. They might not have been outwardly fluid with it or where two guys would just be walking down the marketplace holding hands and whatnot.

01:59:01.700 but I don't think that it was as frowned upon as people might think it was. I mean, it was

01:59:12.640 common practice in ancient Rome, you know, just, I mean, everyone knew the high society,

01:59:20.780 they had their group of young boys they went after and the group of young girls they went

01:59:26.540 after, and that was acceptable. And I have to believe that to a certain point, it was acceptable 0.97

01:59:31.520 back then as well um otherwise i don't think she would have been able to have done what she did

01:59:37.440 i mean you can slide money across the table to the priests all you want to but if they were hard

01:59:42.820 and fast male and female don't commingle like that they would have never supported her the way they

01:59:49.440 did that's just my personal belief yeah no and i'm thinking also we were talking before but like how

01:59:54.840 a wedding was not a celebrated thing. So it's kind of like, yeah, like a man and a woman

02:00:00.740 would get married or get together. And the purpose of that is procreation. So it's like 0.90

02:00:06.200 the purpose of that is not necessarily pleasure or a relationship or love because people, I would

02:00:11.280 presume you can get that from other places. So it's kind of like these two people are like,

02:00:15.560 we think about like, oh, it's this brother sister marriage. It's like, yeah. And they had to have

02:00:19.620 sex and they had to have children, but it's kind of like, that's all they were supposed to do.

02:00:22.800 It's not like they're not supposed to be in love with each other.

02:00:26.340 So I think where sexuality, like there wasn't this shame attached to it.

02:00:30.340 It was so built into their religion.

02:00:33.180 And I think the religion, I think some of the gods did have some gender fluidity as well.

02:00:39.340 So it's not like Hat was pulling this out of nowhere.

02:00:42.180 Right.

02:00:43.240 Like I said, it had to be something that was at least somewhat acceptable to them.

02:00:48.900 Otherwise, they wouldn't have supported her in that.

02:00:50.980 they would have been oh blasphemy for her to be portraying herself as a male but still using the

02:00:56.420 pronoun as she they it wouldn't fly it wouldn't so there there has to be things about their society

02:01:03.740 that but see the thing about it is is they didn't record everything because they just didn't have

02:01:09.960 the time they didn't have the space they they didn't record everything but just because they

02:01:15.020 didn't record that about themselves doesn't mean that didn't exist you know i think it's probably

02:01:20.500 something too like even today like god knows like people are recording every minute of their life

02:01:24.640 but there's some stuff that we don't say because it just goes without saying and everyone knows it

02:01:28.920 so why would you write it down it's like yeah every day exactly every day i wake up and i breathe

02:01:32.520 in oxygen it's like yeah everyone knows that so there's some stuff that just goes without saying

02:01:38.120 in their society they're just like why would i write that down like everyone knows that

02:01:41.220 like i'm not gonna i'm not gonna waste my precious papyrus scroll to be like oh and also

02:01:46.560 sexuality is fluid like it's like everyone knows that in that you know that goes along with um you

02:01:51.720 know um the the mortality rate of the children um and all the stillborns that was kind of sort

02:01:58.740 of a given back then so why record every single instance of it because it was to a certain extent

02:02:05.960 expected you know and actually just in this sort of topic i was um when i was reading about hat

02:02:12.540 and just kind of like figuring out how to talk about her and like with all this gender stuff so

02:02:17.520 I messaged a another guest who I keep inviting back on the podcast because I'm obsessed with

02:02:22.860 talking with them is a trans historian of trans issues named Kit Ham and I was like how do you

02:02:29.960 how would you describe hat like where does this fit into like trans history because it's not

02:02:35.120 and so I'll just tell you what Kit said because they're very smart and explain things really well

02:02:41.880 And so what they said is that this is a really interesting example of gender being associated with social role rather than body type.

02:02:49.520 So the role of Pharaoh was a male role.

02:02:51.880 So in order for Hatshepsut's role as Pharaoh to make sense, that change of portraiture had to happen.

02:02:56.580 Like, officially, they had to be drawn like that.

02:02:59.780 So Kit says, I don't think Hatshepsut could be described as a trans person, but I think this is a great example of trans history.

02:03:06.300 history that shows us someone's gender could change over the course of the life and it could

02:03:10.780 be distinct from their body 100% agree yeah 100% agree yes because it was it's obvious she was

02:03:18.780 never trying to portray herself as a man she was just trying to portray herself as king as co-king

02:03:25.840 if she was trying to portray herself as a man she would have had everything he you know and

02:03:32.420 and would have never had any sort of feminine anything carved in you know like you said in 0.82

02:03:39.220 some of the the glyphs she they would show they wouldn't show like double d's but they would show

02:03:45.500 that this wasn't the flat chest of a man this was clearly a female so i i totally agree with

02:03:51.820 that assessment that it was just a matter of fitting the the gender of the role not trying

02:03:57.920 to change her overall gender exactly it's just and that's that's part of why i messaged kit about

02:04:04.220 this just because i was like how i again all of this gina i've just been like trying to wrap my

02:04:08.860 head around like ancient egypt how ancient it is hat's whole story and then i was just like this

02:04:13.060 gender stuff i'm just like what is this how am i supposed to how do you understand this and so yeah

02:04:17.980 kit really explained that well i think just kind of like the role of king is male and so hat was

02:04:23.240 like, okay, so in like these official portraits, I will portray myself as male. I myself am still

02:04:27.680 a woman, but also I'm king. And just don't worry about it. God said, it's okay.

02:04:33.040 Right. Let's move on.

02:04:35.980 God said, it's okay. Here's like $20. Like that's, let's just.

02:04:39.080 Right. I mean, and that's really what it boiled down to. It was all very practical, I think,

02:04:46.360 for, for everyone involved. It was practical to the priests because she was, she was keeping up

02:04:52.840 with all the religious stuff they wanted her to keep up with and she was padding their pockets

02:04:57.420 that was all practical to them to the bureaucrats of of ancient egypt she kept the she kept society

02:05:07.880 going she kept the the coffers full she kept the um their enemies subdued it was all very practical

02:05:16.020 to them she wouldn't she was never doing or saying anything that would make anyone clutch

02:05:23.200 their pearls and be like oh exactly exactly like it's it's an interesting contrast to 0.67

02:05:28.940 Akhenaten right who is just like I'm gonna change everything and everyone's like what 0.91

02:05:33.360 hat is just like I want to keep status quo I want to keep getting Egypt like richer and the kingdom

02:05:38.720 bigger and let's just keep going and everyone's just like you're so well suited to this job like

02:05:43.820 why would anyone be mad about it exactly yeah and that's that's the brilliance of her that she

02:05:52.080 understood as long as she did it in the way that she was doing it she stood the best chance of

02:06:00.280 being able to continue to do what she wanted to do and like you said earlier it might have been 0.98

02:06:06.240 just a thought that she had was like fuck that i want to do this i want to be king i want to do 0.99

02:06:10.340 that. I want to go here. But because she was so religious, in her mind, it would have been, oh, 1.00

02:06:16.040 the gods are giving me these thoughts. I would never have these thoughts on my own. They have

02:06:20.620 to be coming from the gods. Therefore, it has to be ordained by them. And this is what has to happen.

02:06:27.140 And what she was doing was for the betterment of her society. Whereas you had the Crusades,

02:06:34.240 where they were saying, God wills it. They were supposed to be doing it because God said they're

02:06:39.260 supposed to be doing it and all they were doing was just going and raping pillaging and killing 0.98

02:06:43.600 but in their mind god told them to do it yeah so hat was like the religious stuff and again like

02:06:51.500 it's really her sincere understanding like her role is to serve egypt her role is to honor the

02:06:57.000 gods and the way that she can do that is to make egypt as best as it can be and that's what she

02:07:01.180 was doing like she wasn't going off script she might have been slightly benefiting personally

02:07:08.700 but not to a point to where it looked like everything she was doing was for her. Because

02:07:15.440 think about it. Everything she was doing really was for the betterment of overall Egypt. It just

02:07:22.880 was. She didn't do anything that was a detriment to them. Everything made them better. Everything

02:07:29.400 helped them maintain the control that they had. I mean, I wouldn't have gone against her. I mean,

02:07:38.000 especially if she was sliding something to my husband because he was helping her do something.

02:07:42.680 Therefore, I could live a better life. And I had a nice, luxurious apartment in the corner of the

02:07:47.440 palace. I'll see you when you get home, honey. And that's it. I'm not questioning squat because

02:07:56.040 my life is good because of what she's doing. And that's how she got away with it. She made 0.87

02:08:00.900 so many people's lives better with what she was doing. They had absolutely no reason to go against

02:08:06.960 her and that's the thing like she was a really good leader like she was doing the job better

02:08:13.620 than anyone like she she was so smart she got herself in this position she was able to stay

02:08:19.260 in this position and she was able to maintain it because she was excellent like the things that she

02:08:24.240 was doing worked like um there's just some notes here about the various trade expeditions like

02:08:30.400 she's going through eastern mediterranean she went to sinai in search of turquoise in her nine

02:08:36.860 year of rain her navy she had a navy went to eritrea then known as punt on the east coast of

02:08:44.200 africa and they brought back myrrh trees piles of frankincense and african products like ebony

02:08:49.780 wood gold and ivory and there were all there was lots of carvings of her doing this because like

02:08:55.960 she brought back this bounty and she's like i did that hat did that but what made that even more

02:09:02.860 substantial is the fact that no one from Egypt had gone to Punt in how many years. She did

02:09:10.260 something that she reopened a trade line that had been closed for a long time. And that trade route

02:09:19.280 brought things to Egypt that they really wanted and really needed because they were all about

02:09:25.040 burning incense and all that stuff. I mean, I read a couple of passages where they were probably

02:09:28.880 Like she was high as hell because she was surrounded by all of this incense.

02:09:33.160 I mean, I've burned incense before and I'd be like, oh, well, you get kind of lightheaded. 0.99

02:09:37.440 Imagine being in a closed off room with that much damn incense. 0.96

02:09:41.460 I'd probably just pass out. 0.99

02:09:42.920 I mean, I don't know how they survived it.

02:09:44.700 So she was bringing back things that they needed for their religious rituals on top of all the other richness and goods that she was bringing back, you know, foods they didn't have.

02:09:55.820 So, you know, obviously there would have been gold and they might have even had silver.

02:09:59.640 I don't know.

02:10:01.020 She was bringing things in this trade route that she reopened that they didn't have, that they now had, that made everyone's lives appear to be richer.

02:10:13.500 I mean, granted, if you were a bureaucrat, you were already on whatever level of richness.

02:10:18.280 But if you had something from a completely foreign country that it took them, what, I think I read it was like three years to build the ships to even be able to get there.

02:10:28.540 So that was quite an expedition that she initiated to build enough ships to go and then to be able to transport all that stuff back. 0.87

02:10:36.780 That whole thing would have taken probably a total of maybe five or so years from beginning to end when she got back with all that stuff.

02:10:46.260 that was a huge undertaking that was very bold to her because if she failed that would have been

02:10:52.160 really bad for her but now all of a sudden everyone all these rich people be like oh look

02:10:56.580 what i got because this came from wherever and you guys don't have this but i have this

02:11:00.980 she just she played the game perfectly and this is why um like there's so many carvings about this

02:11:07.660 like there's carvings of like her you know receiving the trees on the ships and stuff

02:11:11.780 And this is where I want to mention because those carvings, a lot of them are in this temple that she built in this site, Der El Bari.

02:11:20.480 So on the Western Bank of Thieves, modern Luxor.

02:11:24.920 So she made this, it's described as a natural amphitheater against a curtain of towering limestone cliffs.

02:11:30.720 So there's a picture of this in the book, but you can look it up to just whatever, Google image search.

02:11:35.140 So it looks, again, like a very contemporary building.

02:11:38.060 it's a stone building with like multiple levels kind of like little rectangles you know like sort

02:11:44.740 of window shapes and it's this multi-layered thing and inside and you can go visit it today

02:11:49.600 there's um carvings of her victory you know like her army victories her trading expeditions the

02:11:57.660 transport of the obelisks like there's pictures of like all like i did that like these are all

02:12:03.380 in this building that she built that's still there.

02:12:07.560 And, you know, the funny thing is,

02:12:08.780 is when you see pictures of ancient Egyptian monuments,

02:12:15.100 everyone knows the pyramids, you know,

02:12:17.460 everyone knows the Sphinx,

02:12:20.460 but everyone knows her mortuary temple.

02:12:24.600 You see that and you know it.

02:12:26.500 You might not know who it belongs to,

02:12:28.200 but you've seen it numerous times within your life

02:12:30.660 because when people show famous pictures of ancient Egyptian monuments, that is always in

02:12:37.940 the mix. She did that. A woman built one of the largest, I mean, obviously the pyramids are

02:12:46.220 bigger, but she built one of the largest monuments in ancient Egypt that is still there today.

02:12:54.580 come on now I mean how does this woman not get taught constantly I just well because I've you're

02:13:02.720 right like I've seen this building before I just because I was like you know I was going through

02:13:06.480 the book I'm like man I wonder what what things had commissioned are still around today and I was

02:13:11.640 like that place I know that place that's her but also I you know shout out to Senan Mutt who is

02:13:18.780 credited with helping to design this temple like her guy like his her like what's it called when

02:13:24.640 you um her contractor he just like he was really her lifelong contractor he really was she's like

02:13:33.180 i need to transport these things he's like okay i'm gonna design some boats for you i'm gonna

02:13:37.260 design this temple for you like he yeah so he you know showed a descendant as well he was exceptional

02:13:44.300 at his job and and it wasn't just construction that he was in charge of he was in charge of

02:13:49.760 money um and and granary and he was in charge of a lot of everything she like she just trusted him

02:13:57.840 yeah and you know one thing i didn't know i knew about him but what i didn't know was and and this

02:14:04.940 is me as an accountant being like ha see so she had redundancies in people that were in charge of

02:14:13.780 things. So really no one person had too much power. She had a couple of people that were in 1.00

02:14:24.360 charge of the same things. And in the accounting world, that's called checks and balances, 0.95

02:14:29.900 where I know a lot about what's going on within a certain area, but I don't know everything that's

02:14:35.600 going on because it would not be good for one person to know everything or to have access to

02:14:42.700 everything that's just good business she knew that way back then it wasn't good to have just

02:14:49.760 one person in charge of because cinema was in charge of a lot of stuff a lot of money he was

02:14:55.440 in charge of of her daughter's household as well he was in charge of a lot of stuff if he wanted

02:15:02.520 to if he was a true jackass he could have i mean i'm sure he probably took a little bit off the

02:15:07.940 top as it was because that's just how everyone was statues of himself whatever yeah but he could 0.97

02:15:14.180 have taken her for everything she had and she wouldn't have realized it until it was all gone

02:15:19.100 but she understood you cannot give one man that much power and she would have two men or even

02:15:25.920 three men in charge of various different things to make sure she had those checks and balances 1.00

02:15:30.520 in place come on if that's not a smart woman i mean come on that's such a good point too because 0.84

02:15:37.060 yeah it's like it's interesting for me to be again like telling the story of this woman who

02:15:41.960 was just successful her whole life basically because i'm so used to there being that one guy

02:15:48.560 the one advisor who she thinks she a woman mary queen of scots or whoever like she thinks she can

02:15:53.460 trust this person but then it turns out they're scheming against her she gave that person too

02:15:56.720 much power like hat succeeded because she knew to not allow that to happen to not have one person

02:16:04.280 with too much power like she when there's like you gotta wonder did her mom or her grandma tell 0.99

02:16:09.960 her that did was that passed down where don't be dumb these men are trifling as hell and they're 0.99

02:16:16.980 going to try to come after you because you're a woman so keep your eye on them was she taught 0.97

02:16:21.340 that was it just a natural thing for her or was that something that's passed down from the older

02:16:25.340 generations i want to believe it was i want to believe that too yeah definitely definitely but

02:16:30.580 it's like sometimes it's hard to give credit to somebody who did really well it's like okay i think

02:16:34.760 about like we're a similar age you remember like y2k when they're like all the computers are going

02:16:40.400 to crash like oh and it didn't crash and we're all like that was done why were we worried and

02:16:44.300 it's like no it didn't crash because all these people were working 24 hours a day to make sure

02:16:48.860 that all the computers didn't crash but because something bad didn't happen it's it's like less

02:16:54.300 no one talks about it right so like with hat it's like so many bad things could have happened

02:16:59.060 but they didn't so it's almost harder to give her credit because she just did everything right

02:17:04.680 like it's like here's this person who turned against her and here's how she defeated him

02:17:08.800 like that's a good story but she like made it so no one even did turn against her and i think you 0.98

02:17:14.800 and i have talked about this before where when it comes to a woman being in charge if she fucked up 0.76

02:17:19.520 they're gonna record it and um you don't find that with her so she must not have given them 0.96

02:17:28.480 anything to write about yeah i mean that's what you have to believe because every other woman out

02:17:34.560 there that they felt didn't do right you know about it yeah well it's like when you talk about

02:17:40.540 the queens of egypt and i know there's lots of reasons why people know about cleopatra um which

02:17:45.940 we talk about in another episode that the listeners haven't heard yet but just wait because we went 0.95

02:17:51.280 long on that but um but with cleopatra it's like people do remember her because of her fuck-ups 0.86

02:17:56.880 because of some of the things that went wrong.

02:17:58.940 And that's kind of why she's famous.

02:18:00.120 Pat did everything right.

02:18:02.040 And I think that's part of why she's not famous

02:18:03.920 because everything was just calm.

02:18:06.500 Like everything, like there's no drama.

02:18:09.440 Everything did what it was supposed to do.

02:18:11.580 And then she was just super lucky

02:18:13.180 with the Nile doing what she needed it to do

02:18:15.440 because that could have upended everything

02:18:18.740 that she was working towards.

02:18:20.340 So she just had just a natural luck with nature.

02:18:25.900 and just the smarts to make everything else work out the way she needed it to.

02:18:32.460 I wanted to talk as well about, I think it's at the same temple,

02:18:35.260 the famous one, the like three-story temple.

02:18:37.560 So there's a gazillion statues of her, sphinxes and whatever.

02:18:43.220 But also there's giant statues of her.

02:18:45.440 And I think this is where, and this is part of what's interesting 0.71

02:18:47.560 about the gender presentation, because there's statues of her

02:18:51.020 that were created throughout many years. 0.78

02:18:53.880 and early in her reign they're painted like yellow which is the color that a woman's statue

02:18:58.360 is painted and then mid-reign they're kind of orange because a man's statue would be painted

02:19:04.500 red a woman's statue is painted yellow and then these ones are kind of orange it's like they mix

02:19:08.720 the two and then towards the end of her reign they're all painted red like a man so this is

02:19:12.920 where it's just like the gender fluidity it's it's like visual in that way like how she changed

02:19:21.580 how she wanted to be perceived or how she was exactly it was it was about at that period of 0.77

02:19:26.120 time how does she want to be viewed by by the masses again never trying to discount that she

02:19:33.580 was a woman she never tried to say she wasn't but what at this particular point in time how do i

02:19:39.100 want to be viewed by people as regent she was at the beginning she was okay with being viewed as

02:19:44.500 a straight female that started to change until she got to it where she wanted to be viewed as 0.84

02:19:49.920 cold king and to do that you have to portray yourself that way you got i mean i used to always 1.00

02:19:55.800 tell my boys um you know men don't like it when a woman shows she's got bigger balls 0.91

02:20:02.140 because that goes against their egos and the longer she was in reign she she must have felt 1.00

02:20:11.040 that she had to start showing who had the bigger balls because she she gradually started showing

02:20:16.420 everyone i'm in charge take it or leave it i think part of it and this is kara cooney says this but i 0.80

02:20:23.260 think it makes sense because like early on in the co-king era like she's being like the portraits

02:20:29.720 are like you know they're painted yellow or orange and she's got like a woman like a female silhouette

02:20:35.240 but with the king crown but and by the end she and tutmos the third look identical like they're

02:20:39.180 both being drawn as the same men and i think that's like because at first it's like a little

02:20:42.420 boy and she's like i'm the adult he's a little boy but as soon as he turns i don't know 12

02:20:46.360 15 and he maybe becomes like a larger presence she wants to make sure like just because this

02:20:52.820 is a man and maybe he's taller than me or whatever she's like but we're equal and that's where she

02:20:57.280 starts being like portrayed as like we're the same and i also like that she understood that

02:21:02.400 she couldn't continue to portray him as a child because that would have caused him to start

02:21:07.500 really hating her because he would have he would have understood his position he would have

02:21:12.300 understood that, you know, I'm 15 now. They're looking at me more as a man, you know, and he

02:21:17.540 probably was taller than her and, you know, wider shoulders and whatnot. But she understood that I

02:21:23.100 can't keep, I can't keep my foot on him anymore because if I do that, he's going to rebel. So let

02:21:29.440 me try to make things a little bit more equal to placate him so where he's not going to try to

02:21:34.760 rise up against me kind of thing. And that was very smart. That was very smart because he never

02:21:39.560 did. And I think also she maybe benefited from the fact that he was, you know, when he was in

02:21:43.700 that little room of toddlers, they're like, uh, that guy, that'll be the co-king. Like she would 0.90

02:21:47.720 have raised him and he would have understood we're co-kings. And there's other examples from past

02:21:52.040 Egyptian history of times when there were co-kings. So he would have been raised to be like, this is 1.00

02:21:56.740 okay. And this is normal. And this is fine. Like he wasn't stifled by that. Or he, you know, he

02:22:01.880 would have been, as soon as he could learn how to talk, he would understand like, yeah, this is hat

02:22:05.980 and work work the same and and it would have also it would have been helpful for him or for her but

02:22:12.540 you know he would have never heard anyone talking bad about her because she was doing such a good

02:22:18.620 job and she had been in that position for so long you know she she was royal for how many years 1.00

02:22:23.660 before he came along so if he never had anyone in his ear telling him you need to watch this bitch 1.00

02:22:29.320 because she you know she's trying to take over your shit if he never experienced that he wouldn't 1.00

02:22:34.160 think that because like you said it was always what he knew he always saw her taking care of 0.99

02:22:40.220 business and so as long as she was taking care of business and nobody was in his ear saying otherwise

02:22:45.100 why would he ever think otherwise so it's again it's just she's just so smart in terms of just

02:22:52.040 other significant things she did so she had a lot of buildings commissioned out of stone like you 0.99

02:22:58.820 said um she also during her reign introduced innovations in architecture and an art like the

02:23:04.480 style of royal portraiture and sculpture changed a bit and stayed like with kind of like the trend

02:23:10.900 that she set there um the design of royal sarcophagus changed under her time and she also

02:23:17.380 apparently repaired some older temples which had fallen into a dilapidated state like she really

02:23:22.800 wanted like you said like that legacy and to be remembered but she also really revered the

02:23:28.080 ancestors and wanted to shape up what they did so they were remembered also um she built lots of

02:23:34.780 temples for the gods which that is partially you know to win over the priests and the people

02:23:39.360 but also goes along with you know she was just very deeply religious she was she was

02:23:44.320 born into that she was she was raised to be that so it was twofold for her on that where she really

02:23:50.560 truly believed it but she also understood this is going to keep them supporting me and she also i

02:23:55.420 like this so um we were talking about the nile and how it's so important to you know when it it

02:24:02.400 raises it lowers the water level and so there's times of year where maybe you can't do so much

02:24:06.600 farming and what she did um is she employed people when the nile was lower giving them jobs like

02:24:13.480 construction work and stuff to to build these symbols so she was just kind of like keeping

02:24:18.460 people busy and employed right exactly you know don't be just sitting around so you can't farm

02:24:23.920 right now okay then help build something when farming comes back then you can go back to that

02:24:27.360 and she's able to do that because of the like all the stuff she was getting from nubia you know like

02:24:32.500 what they were they were getting their gold and stuff so they were able to pay them but they were

02:24:38.660 also bringing a lot of people back anywhere that they went to resubjugate folks that looked like

02:24:45.080 they were about to rear their head up they would squash them back down and then grab a whole bunch

02:24:49.460 people and bring them back with them. They weren't necessarily, I mean, some of them were probably

02:24:53.640 slaves, but not necessarily all of them were slaves, but they were still used to, for the

02:24:58.900 betterment of Egypt. So you bring back a couple of hundred people from wherever it is you just

02:25:04.680 went and conquered, that gives you a couple hundred people to help you start building this stuff,

02:25:08.560 you know? If so, fine. So they don't know how to carve, but they can drag that stuff along the sand

02:25:13.720 and get it to where it needs to be. They can understand dragging. So, you know, they, she,

02:25:18.720 not only did she utilize the the actual egyptian people she utilized the people they brought back 0.87

02:25:24.020 too so she was basically always reinforcing her workforce with everybody that she conquered

02:25:29.960 and this is also saying that like during her reign like we've talked before about how you

02:25:35.160 know does the average farmer or peasant even know who the pharaoh is or what they look like

02:25:39.280 but she did in fact make the rounds around egypt um escorted by troops um you know a huge entourage 0.54

02:25:46.740 obviously but she would go around and they were hunting leopards she was carried on a traveling

02:25:52.200 throne um and the remains of this chair are now in the british museum somebody should look somebody

02:25:59.360 should liberate that but that's where it is right now you know what if you're in england there you

02:26:02.740 go you can go see that there was a noticeable increase of the portrayal of priestesses during 0.92

02:26:08.660 her reign so maybe more women became priestesses like that was either she may did something to

02:26:15.860 encourage people to do that or people just did because they had this female king and or just

02:26:21.380 because the religion there's so many more temples maybe more people are just getting excited about

02:26:25.360 it yeah so it opened up more positions of leadership in these religious groups for

02:26:30.160 elite women of the realm like basically just there's more priestesses in this time so that's 1.00

02:26:35.320 interesting and it's it's funny because um priestesses have always been a part of the

02:26:42.560 Egyptian religion, but they weren't focused on. It was always the priests because, you know,

02:26:49.520 it's always the guys that are going to get all the glory most of the time. And so for priestesses to 0.94

02:26:55.000 start increasing in number and representation, that didn't necessarily die down after that,

02:27:03.160 because you do hear about priestesses a lot in the next dynasties. And they actually played a really

02:27:11.660 pivotal role in a lot of rituals that you hear about later on. So it's just me wanting to hype

02:27:19.740 up a woman. I want to say that she started a tradition of priestesses that had she not done 0.99

02:27:28.480 that, they wouldn't have held the position they did later on in other dynasties. So power to the 1.00

02:27:35.460 women she she started giving women more visibility you know and I don't know if she if she deliberately 0.98

02:27:46.200 did that or if it just happened or like you said people were more um they were more hyped because 0.97

02:27:52.340 okay we have a female king so you know let's go out there and start doing more I don't know but 0.99

02:27:58.140 me personally I'm gonna say that she did it because she wanted to see women thrive and 1.00

02:28:02.780 she she started a revolution i think because she wasn't doing this in a self-centered way she wasn't

02:28:12.380 just like i want power and here's what i'm gonna do she was like for the betterment of egypt this 0.93

02:28:16.520 is what is gonna happen and so inherently in that it means like okay well like maybe other women 0.60

02:28:22.960 can help the betterment of egypt so like her daughter so princess neferer so her daughter 1.00

02:28:28.820 inherited the role of God's wife. And so it seems like, I don't know for sure if she married Tetmos

02:28:36.040 III, but like she is shown in art being sometimes she's doing the role of like queen, because

02:28:40.820 there's these two co-kings, but you need that balance, right? So like, so the daughter is kind

02:28:44.960 of the one who's doing some of these religious things. And so it seems like Hat was kind of

02:28:50.600 preparing her daughter to take on a similar role as her, like she was getting this really good 0.95

02:28:55.200 education the titles that neferer has on various temples and stuff kind of show that she was

02:29:02.220 exactly how hat had been when she began as god's wife like so it seems like she was maybe hoping

02:29:08.760 that like neferer could inherit a similar sort of role as her and then i think this is great i think

02:29:15.120 this is fantastic so usually usually like one of there's this festival that happens when a pharaoh

02:29:21.600 has been Pharaoh for 30 years, which said because of life expectancy doesn't happen that often in

02:29:27.760 this time. But Hat was like, I'm going to celebrate this, even though I've only been

02:29:33.000 Pharaoh for 16 years. Because if you add the time where she was the wife, and if you add the time

02:29:38.340 where she was the daughter, it's like, basically, it's 30 years. So let's let's go. Let's just have 0.68

02:29:42.640 this. I love it. She combined from the time of her father up until her time, she combined all

02:29:48.620 the years of the topmost rule to get her to her 30 needed to have a said festival and i mean come

02:29:56.720 on how brilliant i love it she's just like if you round up to the nearest 30 right it's 30

02:30:02.640 and that was a big festival that one was just off the chain i mean i can't even imagine but then also

02:30:12.520 to have that festival because a lot of just the smaller festivals that they did and just natural

02:30:17.340 religious rituals that they did. The king had to do a lot during these festivals. You would read

02:30:25.620 about them having to run miles and carry this there and wear all of this garb and recite all

02:30:32.120 of these incantations. If you chose to have a festival, you had to know this is going to wear

02:30:39.520 you down and you're going to need a whole lot of sleep after this is done. So it was clearly

02:30:44.760 important to her to have this festival because it would have actually made her have to do a lot 0.95

02:30:53.200 to have this festival so it must have been worth it to her and also this would be like tutmos the

02:30:59.640 third at this point like if it's her 16th year then he's probably on 16 like he's probably about

02:31:04.480 adult size so it could have been sort of like now that he it could be part of her thing of being

02:31:09.800 like yeah now he looked like he's taller than me maybe he's bigger than me but just so you know

02:31:13.560 we're still co-kings let's just remind everybody that in this weeks-long olympics demonstration

02:31:22.380 really yes i just and the thing is is the fact that he went along with it um he might not have

02:31:30.480 wanted to do it at first because it would have required a lot from him as well because with

02:31:35.260 them being co-kings he would have to do the same things that she was doing um but the fact that he

02:31:40.080 went along with it willingly or not says a lot because being at the age that he was being the

02:31:48.000 quote-unquote rightful heir to the throne he was in a position to be able to put his foot down

02:31:54.240 and be like I don't really want to do this you're tripping ma'am this is not 30 years

02:32:00.840 that's not how you count but so he went along with it so you know you have to believe that

02:32:09.700 he might he just didn't have a problem with it but also with these types of festivals it was

02:32:16.380 something to get everybody involved it was something to for for the commoners and the

02:32:22.700 bureaucrats alike so if you're keeping everyone happy you know because that was the main thing

02:32:27.820 they wanted to do is have balance and happiness and and good fortune if you're keeping everyone

02:32:32.040 happy you're not going to have anyone come against you yeah and he would see the benefit in that

02:32:37.520 I think he had a really good, not role model, but I guess role model, like seeing what she did, like he would go on. We're about to get to the part where he's gonna, he did very well for himself as well. And I think she trained him very well in how to succeed based on like her inherent natural ability, like the way that she was able to pick up and learn and pivot and be flexible. But also she saw what her dad did, the way she's trained by her mom and her grandma, like he benefited from all of that education from her.

02:33:07.520 And, you know, and then he would have just his natural advisors as well. So, you know, he had a really, it was a perfect storm for him, the combination of everything and everyone that he had to learn from.

02:33:22.380 You know, he was probably one of the he was probably set up better than anyone else to rule Egypt, because honestly, who else would have had that much time with that many people that were that good at their job?

02:33:40.340 because typically what would happen is the king would die.

02:33:44.120 Bam, his successor is on the throne and you got to hit the ground running.

02:33:48.760 You don't have time to really absorb and understand all the nuances of this, that, and the other.

02:33:56.240 He was probably the best set up to be king up to that point.

02:34:01.040 Others might have been set up the same way, but he had everything he needed to be successful. 0.95

02:34:08.600 if he fumbled the bag then he was just a dork because dude you had been given everything you

02:34:16.200 needed to be successful so the celebration the said happened in the 16th year asterix 30th

02:34:24.560 of hat's reign and then she died six years later so in her 22nd year and we there's no one suggests

02:34:33.640 that it was anything suspicious i think it was kind of like there's a million diseases and she

02:34:38.200 died in one of them probably so she died but for an egyptian that is not the end of a story

02:34:44.820 and so her her burial temple she was inspired by her father right to have like more of a secret

02:34:53.020 tomb so it would maybe so that i think this is just interesting and i i didn't know this and

02:35:00.480 now i know it but you know there's been so many grave robbers and stuff in modern times but there

02:35:06.920 was grave robbers in ancient egypt times too you know where we're like oh the culture was so

02:35:11.140 important and everyone is so religious it's like yeah but they were still being like there's

02:35:15.540 riches in this tomb i'm just gonna take it whatever melt it down and have some gold for me

02:35:20.380 you know people weren't so religious that they wouldn't break into the old pharaoh's tombs and

02:35:24.260 steal stuff and also um subsequent pharaohs would have done it i mean it would it would be common

02:35:31.220 people that would do it because you know they needed to feed their families but there would

02:35:35.300 also be you know later pharaohs that would be like well all this stuff's just sitting here you

02:35:40.680 know and and we're not we're not doing all that great with our coffers so why don't we just go

02:35:45.160 grab some of that and then maybe i can build something with whatever it was that was just

02:35:49.180 sitting there collecting dust it was a combination of folks that were grave robbing back then yeah

02:35:54.100 i i don't know i just i previously in my life i had thought that everyone was so respectful of

02:36:01.940 the death rituals that they would in that era they would never have done that but of course

02:36:05.480 they did because people are just people people are people yeah so hat like initially a tomb had

02:36:10.840 been planned for her when she was like the queen of tutmos the second but when she became a king

02:36:15.420 she's like no i want to be in the valley of the kings like with the other kings and her tomb has

02:36:20.820 never been found or no it was her body has never been found her tomb was found her body is not found

02:36:27.620 yeah yeah her tomb was excavated in 1903 um but yeah her body has not been found and

02:36:38.880 just side note that what was this send and mutt he had some sort of fall from grace eventually

02:36:45.680 as well he had he was you know he's this architect he's this engineer he was designing himself this

02:36:50.440 fabulous tomb but it was never finished like something happened with him where he yeah he

02:36:56.760 wasn't able to use that um and i think his name was kind of chiseled off a couple places in some

02:37:02.800 places yeah he he i think built enough of himself to where there was no way they could get rid of

02:37:09.960 all of it because um there was a valid very valid point in in the book where this stuff was made of

02:37:15.180 stone some of it of um you know granite that stuff's not easy to break so it would take a

02:37:23.920 good amount of effort to really truly get rid of everything that had been built. And like was

02:37:30.420 stated in the book, you can't have your workforce concentrating on destroying things and at the same

02:37:36.980 time building the things you need to have built in order to leave your mark in the world. So you

02:37:44.700 got option A, option B, destroy everything and you leave nothing, or you got to just leave some

02:37:49.600 of that stuff there and get to build on what you want to have to be for your legacy and so i think

02:37:55.700 that the reason why that just the workforce was spread so thin is why we have so much stuff that

02:38:01.500 has remained and we even know what we know about some of these people because why should we know

02:38:04.900 anything about cinema why should we know anything about him but we know about him because he was

02:38:10.800 vain and built a lot of stuff about himself and they just didn't have the proper resources to get

02:38:17.040 Yeah. Well, and then this brings us into, so it wasn't right away, like Thutmose III took over as king. And then he reigned for actually quite a while. I'll look up how long it was. But it wasn't until really towards the end of his reign that he started taking, getting the people to chisel out Hatt's name here and there. Can you talk about that? I'm just going to look up how long he reigned for.

02:38:40.440 Well, what it was is she really, in a way, solidified his reign because he would not have been in the position that he was.

02:38:50.420 Egypt wouldn't be in the position they were if it weren't for what she did while she was ruling.

02:38:56.280 And like you had mentioned earlier, until an heir was, it looked like they were going to survive and be able to succeed.

02:39:05.440 They weren't acknowledged publicly as far as like they weren't carved into anything.

02:39:10.440 Everyone knew they existed, but there was no permanent record of them because you don't want to have a permanent record of a five-year-old.

02:39:18.540 And by the time they're 10, they're gone. That's a waste of time and resources.

02:39:22.520 And she alluded to it in her book, and I truly believe it, that he left her there to solidify his reign because at that time, all those years, he didn't have an heir.

02:39:33.440 so he had to still make it look like he was the legitimate soul king even though everyone

02:39:42.580 remembered for the most part that she she was co-king and he would not have been in the position

02:39:48.320 he was if it wasn't for her but he didn't have an heir he didn't have okay but this is what's

02:39:53.320 coming after me so I gotta still keep her once he had that heir established he was able to start

02:40:00.060 kind of maybe trying to erase her and i did read and i didn't know this but i did read that once

02:40:06.960 he started doing that he started replacing her image with his father and his grandfather

02:40:12.620 because they were tutmost one tutmost two and they were the ones that solidified him being in charge

02:40:20.000 not her because he had an heir now and he couldn't really say he didn't really want to be like yeah

02:40:29.300 but the only reason i'm here is because of a woman you know my my auntie is the one that did

02:40:33.140 this for me my rich my rich auntie to have like a really clear not not clear male yeah not confusing

02:40:39.940 not with this kind of like and then it's like tutmos tutmos tutmos i just looked it up after

02:40:44.140 she died he reigned for 32 more years i didn't realize it was i i was gonna say like 28 i didn't

02:40:50.300 realize it was 32 that's a long time though honestly that is a long time he was this hardy

02:40:55.600 little toddler like they chose the right one from that room like he i mean he must have just been a 0.97

02:41:01.320 bruiser in that damn nursery because i mean seriously because he went on a lot of military 0.97

02:41:07.760 campaigns himself i mean literally right after she died he went on a military campaign so it's like 0.99

02:41:13.720 he he didn't sit back and just enjoy the riches that she amassed for him he was he was about it

02:41:20.980 He was, he was all in for being king and kings were expected to go on the military campaigns. They were. And he couldn't be like, okay, well, auntie went on these military campaigns and I'm just sitting in the palace. He couldn't have that. He couldn't have a woman show him up like that. So, I mean, it was probably a combination of that and him just being all in on being king and him being physically capable of doing it.

02:41:43.040 So he went out and he did all that. But he started getting rid of her image and started replacing it with his grandfather and his father, again, trying to keep things as male as possible as far as who was in charge.

02:41:58.200 Um, and if, if he was reigning 32 years after she died, let's be real, how many people that

02:42:06.540 like knew her were actually still alive?

02:42:10.280 Because she was already well into her twenties by the time she died, which meant most of

02:42:16.200 the people around her would have been twenties or probably older.

02:42:19.740 So for all of those people to last another 32 years, that's not real likely.

02:42:25.560 so he's not going to have a whole lot of people going against him for doing what he was doing

02:42:29.480 because they would not have been around or at least in any sort of power while she was in power

02:42:35.320 so they didn't want him anything to lose by him erasing her you know because they already they

02:42:42.400 were getting their wealth from him at that point now so you know you do you as long as you keep

02:42:46.880 giving me what i want so i think that he was just doing a typical ruler thing i'm not so sure that

02:42:54.400 it was embedded in man-woman type of thing. I think it was just rulers always wanted to make

02:43:03.380 themselves look as legitimate as possible and as strong as possible. And for him to do that,

02:43:10.360 he needed to wipe her away and put his grandfather and his father in that place

02:43:14.560 to really legitimize who he was putting in as heir after him. I mean, it was mostly with them,

02:43:22.020 it was logistical it wasn't personal most of the time yeah yeah exactly and i mean i've i've covered

02:43:28.120 other stories in the podcast where it was more personal like people are just like no one can

02:43:31.860 ever know this woman had this much power let's just like erase all records of her and for him

02:43:36.820 i think it was more just kind of like life goes on and so he just kind of wanted to i don't know

02:43:43.900 just kind of rewrite the story a little bit to really secure his own reign my favorite example

02:43:51.260 of him getting people to like carve her out of stone there's a picture of it in the book

02:43:56.140 do you remember it's like a picture like hat was there and they just chiseled out hat but there's

02:44:01.460 just this person shape so it's like a shadow of like there used to be a person there and now it's

02:44:05.820 just a it's like that yes yeah and that's the way they did everyone though because they they didn't

02:44:11.660 chisel everything around it they just chiseled out the actual form of them but it's still a form

02:44:16.140 of a person there's just no detail to it so obvious it's just kind of like it's like i don't

02:44:22.180 know taking a photograph and just like scribbling out somebody's face it's like i can tell there was

02:44:27.640 a person there and you know another thing i read that i never really thought about it but it makes

02:44:32.700 sense that um some of the um the depictions of her were replaced with altars with food altars

02:44:42.360 and different types of altars and so um typically in in in scenes you would have

02:44:49.080 whatever god they were portraying looking at the king um as if they were like in a conversation

02:44:56.140 kind of thing but now you just have these gods just staring at these tables these offering tables

02:45:00.100 and it was kind of like what's the point of that what god was it and just stared at an offering

02:45:06.220 table i forgot that thank you i love that detail yeah just it's like we can't have hat in this

02:45:11.560 picture what if we just put like a table with some fruit on it great but the thing is is what

02:45:16.760 gets me is that he didn't replace himself that he didn't put himself in that position he it was like

02:45:22.760 he still had that much respect for her that he wasn't going to put himself there but he couldn't

02:45:28.560 just leave a he couldn't leave her there but he couldn't leave a blank so he had put something

02:45:33.540 there so he just put an offering table and it's just really surprising that he didn't put himself

02:45:38.260 there instead but he was it was clear that he wasn't necessarily trying to wipe her out

02:45:43.420 completely otherwise he would have accomplished that he wasn't trying to act like she didn't

02:45:48.960 exist he just needed to portray certain things differently and that meant putting an offering

02:45:55.000 table where she used to stand it's just funny it's yeah the original photoshop right

02:46:01.640 and and poorly done the original royal bad photoshop so hat herself so she reigned for 22

02:46:13.100 years effectively and so with this this article i'm looking at from this encyclopedia so it says

02:46:18.040 like her temple at der el bari remained in use as the most important focal point for annual

02:46:24.160 religious celebrations on the west for centuries to come um people still name their daughters after

02:46:29.580 her and even a thousand years later like historians still wrote about the fact there was this woman

02:46:35.900 who reigned as a king so she's not listed in some lists in temples of like here's the name of every

02:46:42.040 pharaoh there ever was and maybe i don't know if that's malicious or if it's just kind of they were

02:46:46.340 confused you know if that person was she wasn't an outright king so that's probably why they didn't

02:46:52.180 list her tutmos the third was an outright king therefore they would list him in many people's

02:46:58.040 she probably still was just regent whether she called herself co-king or not she was still just

02:47:03.080 regent and you don't list a regent yeah oh and then tutmos the third like he did a really he's

02:47:09.500 one of the most best remembered pharaohs just for like his military success and stuff and like

02:47:13.900 she really set him up for that like we said but so i think he made enough of a name for himself

02:47:20.100 that maybe they didn't have they didn't feel like they needed to acknowledge her

02:47:24.560 But I mean, she is one of the greatest pharaohs of ancient Egypt.

02:47:29.640 She is. And I've mentioned it in probably every podcast we've done with each other, that she is the ultimate for me. She just is. There were other women that were in charge. And you know how much I love my Nefertiti. But ultimately, she wasn't in charge. She was still under Akhenaten. He was in charge. She was probably all up in his ear about stuff. But he was in charge.

02:47:52.060 hat was in charge period end of sentence she was in charge no one else can say that she's such an

02:48:01.500 icon to me yeah um this is why like early this week i was just like gina i can't wait to record

02:48:07.820 this i need i need to hurry up i need to talk to you about hat i'm obsessed with that i like

02:48:13.640 ordered a necklace with hat on it because i love her and i want to wear her on my neck always

02:48:20.220 But yeah, she's great.

02:48:22.020 So we're going to get into the scoring for Hat, which is always an interesting conversation.

02:48:27.120 And I'm really interested to see how this is going to go.

02:48:30.220 My cat is also here.

02:48:31.800 I feel like cats were very revered in ancient Egypt.

02:48:34.740 And so she knows that would have been a great time for you to live.

02:48:39.960 So the first category is scandalousness. 0.97

02:48:42.560 How scandalous was she?

02:48:45.240 And this is interesting.

02:48:46.100 I just want to say first, she made it so that what she did wasn't scandalous because she covered her back.

02:48:53.380 But it kind of was scandalous that she's like, God says I should be the king.

02:48:58.020 So I'm the king like to me.

02:48:59.900 But to the people around her, they're all like, yeah, sounds good.

02:49:02.360 OK, you gave me twenty dollars.

02:49:04.120 OK, yeah. 1.00

02:49:05.980 Everything about her reign was scandalous. 0.99

02:49:09.800 Everything, every step she took was scandalous.

02:49:14.040 It just was. 1.00

02:49:14.840 no woman is going to put themselves in position to be leading military campaigns in ancient Egypt. 1.00

02:49:21.260 I mean, women don't really do it in all of history. I mean, it happened, but not very often. 1.00

02:49:27.820 We know when it happened because it was so rare. Yeah.

02:49:30.800 And so you have to, looking at it the way we look at it, looking at it as just a straight human

02:49:36.800 being, everything about her reign was scandaled. It was. But like you said, because she was so

02:49:43.940 good. And I wouldn't even say she manipulated it. She just used what was going on around her

02:49:49.520 and she used it perfectly. She covered her butt. She made everything look like it came straight 0.99

02:49:56.680 from the gods because she could, because she was in a position and she had the understanding enough

02:50:02.500 to be able to do that. Therefore, in their eyes, it wouldn't have been scandalous. It would have

02:50:08.580 just been the will of the gods so that one is very hard to to like inherently it's yeah no one

02:50:18.360 of the time was being like like the audacity of this woman what's she doing everyone's just like

02:50:22.540 okay yeah this is fair she's doing this but it's like i can't believe she did that so i don't know

02:50:27.240 if you like if this is something where it's just like to you and me and like in the pantheon of

02:50:31.400 history it is scandalous but to the people around her they're like okay if you balance that out to

02:50:36.020 be like a five because it's like not i agree i agree because because one through five is us 0.99

02:50:43.880 thinking oh my god she had she had major balls them six through ten she was just doing what 1.00

02:50:51.300 she was supposed to do you got it you got it even that one out in in a five because it it really

02:50:57.540 our mindset is different than exactly exactly so it's like half scandal is half not which is a five

02:51:04.040 out of 10 yeah yeah yeah um the next one though scheminess i feel like is it i got yes because

02:51:14.060 even though she might have been like oh but you know it's just the gods giving me these ideas 0.98

02:51:20.040 that woman knew damn well what she was doing at all times she did she she was smart and so yes 0.99

02:51:28.420 scheminess she she played her cards right and you gotta be a schemer to be able to play those cards 0.99

02:51:36.940 the way she did to be to rule for 22 years as a woman and have yourself depicted as a man i mean 1.00

02:51:43.440 come on she's got everything everything about her like the fact like coming up with the plan

02:51:48.600 to like what i do believe that she believed that the gods were like you should do this but then

02:51:55.320 everything that she did herself you know like knowing that she had to like grease some palms

02:52:00.280 she had to pay some people off she had to build a temple in this city where this guy is from or

02:52:04.320 whatever she had to like figuring out like the sentiment like oh that's the guy i can trust him 0.55

02:52:10.660 but then also having like checks and balances like she everything she did was so smart and so

02:52:17.860 thoughtful and so effective like she always she was never not scheming you know like she always

02:52:24.720 knew she had an angle she like it's like okay we need to get the money to bring this stuff in okay

02:52:30.620 so then we have to build this boat okay that's gonna take three years fine and then once we have

02:52:35.620 it let's have this festival you know let's make jobs for people when the nile is not great like

02:52:40.700 she was always coming up with plans and schemes like she was never not scheming i think that was

02:52:48.160 the only way she was going to survive honestly definitely 10 definitely okay the next the next

02:52:55.180 category is significance and there's there's just i want to read if my cat will let me she's like

02:53:00.580 pacing back and forth just in terms of okay so this is from cara cooney's book so she's saying 0.95

02:53:08.680 in the ancient world having a woman at the top of a political pyramid was practically unheard of 1.00

02:53:13.920 throughout the mediterranean and northwest asia female leadership was perceived with suspicion

02:53:19.080 if not outright aversion mesopotamia i found this so interesting mesopotamia for example

02:53:24.600 preserves only one example of a female political political powerhouse predating het shepsut 0.97

02:53:29.560 kubaba a tavern keeper who can in a consolidated power in the ancient city of kish in the 25th 0.93

02:53:38.200 century BCE during a time of never-ending war and crisis so it's like hat is like there was other

02:53:44.340 women who were regents there's women who were pharaoh for like a minute but like no one like

02:53:50.400 hat was the first really she was she really was I mean to take it to the level that she did 0.99

02:53:58.020 and to make it look really effortless she don't ever be another like her

02:54:08.200 So there's another, I just had another quote that was talking about, again, from the same book. So historians can find almost no evidence of effective, formerly defined long term female leadership from antiquity, not from the Mediterranean, the Near East, Africa, Central Asia, like, I want to be clear, I'm not just talking about Egypt.

02:54:26.260 This is like all the places that had like cultures going on, like cities, you know, established at this time.

02:54:33.540 These societies were inherently based on masculine dominance because of their reliance on kingship and dynastic succession. 0.66

02:54:41.720 A woman could only take the throne when regional or imperial aggressions had removed all men from the centers of power or when a dynasty was at its end. 0.86

02:54:49.600 And all appropriate males in the royal family were dead. 0.88

02:54:51.760 The only rivals to Hatshepsut's models of female power would come later from imperial China. So, like, she is, in terms of significance, like, she's the first anywhere that we know of.

02:55:06.560 And, I mean, that is hard for me to wrap my head around that no other woman was able to do it. No other woman that we can find any evidence of was able to do it. Not saying that there weren't women that were in charge, but their legacy didn't last.

02:55:27.720 hers, and we've talked about this, how long ago did she exist? And we still know about her,

02:55:36.420 regardless of if she had fuck-ups in there or not, whatever, we still know about her. And 0.95

02:55:42.160 everything that we know about her, for the most part, is positive. It's not negative.

02:55:47.300 what does that say about this woman she is above all others that attempted to do what she

02:55:57.960 accomplished i mean you you have no no better example than her you just don't i think in terms

02:56:05.180 of significance like the fact that she was and again like there's like it said in the book like

02:56:10.000 and like you just said you know i'm sure there's other women who who were leaders who were powerful

02:56:14.340 but just not to the extent like 22 years like this really powerful kingdom making it more powerful

02:56:21.180 like nobody like she was the first that's significant she's still remembered like her

02:56:25.940 temples still exist and you can visit them and that's on my bucket list but i think i think we've

02:56:30.780 talked about this like if you or i get into egypt into one of those temples it's like leave like

02:56:35.640 leave me i need like 72 hours like i need to like look at every inch um like you can go visit it

02:56:43.300 like so beginning to end like her legacies we've talked about this before but like just to remind

02:56:49.980 everybody like in terms of like Egyptian pharaohs and I don't mean the average person on the street

02:56:56.280 but like you or me like somebody who studies history how many names do we really know and

02:57:00.760 what they did is like Hatshepsut, Cleopatra, Nefertiti, Tutankhamen like there's so many men

02:57:06.700 and I don't know any like Akhenaten maybe like I don't know anything about them but like

02:57:13.220 the women like hat like she's one of the few names that is kind of like there's a biography about her

02:57:19.280 like how many english language biographies are there about a specific egyptian pharaoh like very

02:57:24.360 few because they ruled for a long time before the macedonians came in and out of all of those kings

02:57:33.040 pharaohs whatever they were referred to as i know very few names and i've studied this more

02:57:39.940 extensively than you have. And I know I can list off maybe, maybe eight. I can't list off a bunch

02:57:51.740 of them, but they all ruled and they were men and they were doing what they were supposed to be

02:57:56.900 doing, but their names aren't still spoken today by really anyone. They don't have books written

02:58:03.920 about them. They don't, they have a couple of carvings here and there. The only reason why we

02:58:08.940 know about them because their name was carved in a couple of places how many places do you find her

02:58:13.100 name yeah and those are the ones that just weren't destroyed how many were destroyed that actually

02:58:18.760 existed at one time and she still has how many remaining come on now I feel I just I mean I feel

02:58:26.820 like she's a 10 for significance but I really wanted to go through all the reasons absolutely

02:58:32.000 I mean if I could give her a 20 I would I know I know I wish this is a bonus category

02:58:36.820 but that's absolutely a 10 and then this the next category and this is interesting too

02:58:41.900 in the pantheon of like what she did which is the sexism bonus and so this is where

02:58:46.200 it's looking at how much did being a woman in a patriarchal type world hold her back and i feel

02:58:53.780 like not much not much at all and i mean that a lot of that was because everything we've talked

02:59:02.700 about this whole episode but like she was of royal blood she had these examples to look up to

02:59:08.420 she was so smart and canny she had allies in all the right places like she held she held positions 0.58

02:59:17.400 of power at a very young age and i mean she was made god's wife at like what between six and eight

02:59:24.280 something like that that's very very young to be on that high of a pedestal really so at that point

02:59:31.900 you've already knocked out a whole lot of the sexism that you're going to be subjected to

02:59:36.320 because you're already revered at a higher level than pretty much any other female around you.

02:59:42.920 So when you start out that young, being revered that highly,

02:59:47.980 sexism isn't going to play a whole big role in the rest of your life.

02:59:51.900 Well, and I feel like her life, you know, it's different from so many other

02:59:56.400 royal women in egyptian history because she found she was able to become a king you know

03:00:03.180 but the society in general where there was like men were higher up than women and whatnot but it 0.99

03:00:09.100 wasn't women were subjugated it wasn't like some other societies where it's just like she was she

03:00:14.840 got an education she was revered she was honored so the society itself wasn't as sexist as some

03:00:21.640 other societies that i've looked at right where i would say that she would get some points on this

03:00:26.120 is the fact that to become a king she had to say she had to present herself as a man like she

03:00:32.460 couldn't just be like hey guess what like a woman can be king and here we go like which is kind of

03:00:37.900 what she did but she still had to portray herself as a man so there's like i want to give her some

03:00:42.340 points gina is why i'm struggling oh yeah well i would give her like three or four honestly because

03:00:47.780 she did she did have to jump through some hoops that again they didn't record everything so we 0.93

03:00:52.940 wouldn't know all the hoops she had to jump through but she it's a given she had to jump 0.83

03:00:56.740 through yeah a vast amount of hoops to get to where she was regardless of the fact that she 0.98

03:01:02.140 was still so revered and whatnot so like i said i'd give her like a three or four it wouldn't rank

03:01:07.600 high because she was able to do what she needed to do but it wasn't complete smooth sailing yeah

03:01:13.280 i think like once she got in the role and she was there and things were going it was good but she 0.96

03:01:17.860 had to it took some energy for her to get into the role that um tutmos wouldn't have had to have

03:01:24.600 done but at the same point you know for her whole reign and this is remarkable in the history of 1.00

03:01:31.140 this podcast and people i talk about everyone's just like okay yeah there's a woman in charge

03:01:34.680 that's cool like gina that never happens i've done like how many episodes like that is never

03:01:40.860 the narrative. Elizabeth I had a lot of power, and people respected her, but only to a certain

03:01:49.560 point. People were still questioning her. They were gossiping about her behind her back. Everyone

03:01:55.440 questioned her. Everyone, even her closest whatever, questioned her at every turn. She

03:02:02.860 always had to be watching her back in a way that I don't think had to do. And so even though she

03:02:08.900 had power she was long reigning she was this she was that she she still fell under that sexism 0.99

03:02:15.340 major sexism stunting her from really truly being able to be as great as she probably could have 0.99

03:02:21.880 been plus she was just she seemed paranoid but who wouldn't be in her position people were trying

03:02:26.920 to kill her um they were yeah no but actually that reminds me of so just comparing hat with 0.89

03:02:32.940 someone like elizabeth so and again looking back at like the way that sexuality was so different

03:02:37.720 in the in hats era versus other eras but what kara cooney suggests and again it's like not

03:02:42.900 everything is written down because like why would you write down everything there's not that many

03:02:47.080 papyrus scrolls you can't write a diary um but it was saying like it's it's not unlikely that

03:02:54.580 hat probably had lovers her whole life oh because she couldn't marry again because her whole thing

03:03:00.140 was she's the the god's wife like she was married to tutmos the second and like she couldn't but 0.98

03:03:05.640 it's like because sexuality was so much more in the open and so much more it wasn't hidden like 0.99

03:03:12.240 she probably could have had lovers and no one gave a shit really because people just had sex 0.94

03:03:17.440 and that's what the society was like versus elizabeth the first who had to be like i'm a 1.00

03:03:20.980 virgin like don't worry about me no lovers in my life like she had people were always being like oh 1.00

03:03:27.340 i think i saw her with whoever you know but hat could just be like yeah just fuck around like she 1.00

03:03:31.460 was yep and another thing cara brought up was um there was a possibility that had more children

03:03:38.440 but because they were of no significance there's no record of them if they survived you know they

03:03:45.380 could have been you know they could have died in infancy or whatever but i i it's hard for me to

03:03:50.660 believe number one she didn't have lovers number two that she didn't have more children that just

03:03:54.840 that doesn't that doesn't seem realistic to me but because it played no major role in what she

03:04:02.800 was doing for overall egypt no one gave it exactly versus elizabeth where people are like obsessed

03:04:08.000 with like checking her sheets like did she have her head versus hat is just kind of like whatever

03:04:14.380 but also i do want to say and this is in the book too like they did have birth control then which

03:04:19.440 just like people are debating that today and it's like okay 6 000 years ago 10 000 years ago this

03:04:25.320 like they knew how to prevent or terminate pregnancy they did they they had a really

03:04:32.120 good understanding of herbs back then yeah so okay so if we give hat like the a four for sexism 0.88

03:04:38.820 then where she winds up is with a 29 is her score and just so you know where that leaves her in the 0.99

03:04:47.260 pantheon of other people you and I have talked about when we did our reassessment of Cleopatra

03:04:52.140 she got a 28 so hat 29 but that's because she ranked so high in a couple of places that

03:05:00.620 Cleopatra just couldn't exactly I mean her hat the this I don't know I like that they're close

03:05:09.060 to each other but I appreciate that hat is higher up I'm trying to remember where Nefertiti is let

03:05:13.660 let me look. Nefertiti, 31.5. Because that was one scheming-ass woman. I'm sorry. She just,

03:05:22.880 no one convinced me that she wasn't, but she had her reasons for doing it. It was a lot of personal,

03:05:30.100 I think, but it was also just because she wanted to see her husband elevated as high as he could

03:05:35.440 possibly get and who could be elevated more than the sun god reincarnated. I mean, to them,

03:05:41.940 that was as high as you could get i like that the three of them are all really it's like 28 29 31.5

03:05:46.920 like the three of them are and i think they are all equally interesting just like some of them

03:05:52.720 have higher or lower in different places like hat had much less sexism than the other two did

03:05:56.520 i think nefertiti had more scandal because of the whole changing the religion of all of society

03:06:01.960 but yeah this is like the gina berry corner of my scoring matrix it's just like this is where

03:06:08.820 it. Ancient Egypt slash Gina Berry. And you know, it's funny, I was, I read a couple of scholarly

03:06:15.220 papers on, on hat and I read one and it was written by a European male, but he had a point

03:06:26.380 and he said that after what happened with her and, you know, just because it's not recorded,

03:06:33.400 that people thought that it was scandalous what she did doesn't mean that they didn't think it.

03:06:38.820 But after what happened with her, when Akhenaten came and tried to upend how everything was going in Egypt, they thought back to her and they were like, you know, even though it turned out good, it could have turned out really bad. 0.91

03:06:57.180 So she wasn't trying to upend the religious part of it, which is the major part of their overall society, but she was still trying to upend a woman being king, a woman being in charge. 0.60

03:07:08.820 He came along and tried to shift in general how things were going within Egypt. 0.85

03:07:14.820 And they were like, no, just because it worked out for her, it's not going to work out for him.

03:07:19.460 We can't support this.

03:07:20.780 We need to learn from our past experience.

03:07:25.060 And that's one thing that I like about them is they tended to learn from either their successes or their mistakes.

03:07:34.400 They tended to learn.

03:07:35.740 and i'm not saying what akhenaten did was right or wrong it was just what he did is what he felt

03:07:42.120 led to do but they they weren't going to just go along with it and be like okay well it worked out

03:07:48.740 for her so let's just assume it's going to work for him they were realistic about it and like i

03:07:53.900 said she wasn't trying to change the religion he was and religion was the basis of everything for

03:07:57.880 them so if you change the basis of life in general it's to them that's just that's not going to work

03:08:04.460 but they had her to look at to say okay you know we we got to learn from from our past

03:08:14.080 and I think that's probably why they the people kind of revolted against him as quickly as they

03:08:20.320 did because they weren't willing to go along with okay this is gonna work out he knows what

03:08:25.960 he's doing she knew what she was doing he did not and it was just he was just vibes he was just like

03:08:31.960 vibes he didn't have a plan he was just like here's what we're doing hat was like here's my

03:08:36.800 like 10 point powerpoint presentation of like how everything is gonna work i've thought about

03:08:42.320 everything like she she had it figured out but another major difference in them in spite of the 1.00

03:08:47.900 fact that male female she was raised to be in charge he was not expected to take over the throne

03:08:56.700 his older brother was, who was named Thutmose. So he was not raised to be pharaoh. So just like

03:09:06.720 I said, with William and Harry, William had a completely different upbringing than Harry did.

03:09:11.860 Akhenaten, who was Amenhotep IV before he changed his name, he was not raised to be king. Therefore,

03:09:19.160 he was all vibes because he was allowed to be as he was growing up. She was all business.

03:09:25.380 that's how she was raised that's how she functioned so that's why it worked for her

03:09:31.380 and it didn't work for him because vibes don't work with religion no no and that's that's the

03:09:37.680 thing i think we really detailed it well just how she was so savvy she knew just who like

03:09:45.200 she could like an akhenaten is a good example of someone who's just kind of like well this is a

03:09:49.540 religion and i'm god incarnate and here's what we're gonna do it's like people aren't gonna

03:09:53.340 to follow you. If you do that, it's like, you need to understand people. You need to know like

03:09:56.880 this guy, what's his wife's name? Like, what's the name of his dog? Like, let's be nice about

03:10:01.740 it. Like, Oh, let's build him a temple. You know, like you have to, and she was always on. And

03:10:07.740 that's, this is part of why I told you, I like ordered a hat necklace. I was just like to honor

03:10:13.420 her. Cause it's so rare to me. And again, I've done so many episodes to find a woman who just

03:10:22.500 like was allowed to thrive and to show how good she was because she didn't have to spend all of 0.55

03:10:29.380 her time fighting off or you know she wasn't just the regent she wasn't just there for the guy like

03:10:35.320 she was able to be like actually i'm in charge and i'm gonna be amazing and i'm gonna do well

03:10:40.520 just so many of these stories end with like and then she was executed or and then and then

03:10:46.420 or she just she just drops for the annals of history exactly exactly it's just like where

03:10:50.660 did she go um and hat it's like no we know exactly what happened we know she had all these successes

03:10:55.180 i like it's for sure on my bucket list to go to that temple and see all those engravings of her

03:11:00.400 and all for great successes you know like i have to try to become a citizen for like six months

03:11:05.360 because that's how long it'll take me to get through all of it if i get to egypt well i'm

03:11:09.900 sure you even more but i'm just like no i need to see everything like in detail like and then go

03:11:15.420 back to it again the next day okay oh i missed that okay yeah yeah no it's such a i love that

03:11:25.080 so much of this culture is still able to be seen and appreciated in egypt you know a lot of it was

03:11:29.880 taken and put in museums other places but like you can't move a building so yeah right and i'm glad

03:11:37.000 because if they could they would have definitely definitely they moved to smaller ones they moved

03:11:42.940 some of the smaller statues and the smaller obelisks. They moved what they could, but luckily

03:11:48.140 they didn't have resources enough to get it out of there before people started realizing what was

03:11:52.660 happening. They didn't have Stenadmet to invent a giant boat to like sail the buildings down the

03:11:59.000 Nile. I think he should be a hero to like architects and engineers and project planners

03:12:05.020 because he did some unreal, like I'm sure she was like Stenadmet, here's what I want to do.

03:12:09.200 and he's like you want to what like you want to move how big a thing down what distance but he

03:12:14.240 figured it out yeah all right give me a minute i'll be back he yeah you know and that's the thing

03:12:23.420 you you hear about the abu simbal and all that type of stuff of yes those are massive feats of

03:12:30.440 architecture but he just doesn't get his proper due he really doesn't and it i think it's just

03:12:38.540 because he did all that under a woman had he done all that for a man that would be the name

03:12:44.720 that you would know it just would be um so even though he benefited from her it also cost him

03:12:52.820 a spot in in history i just unfortunately appreciate their partnership i think it was

03:13:00.660 really there was so much of her hat's success was because of her hard work and her skill and

03:13:08.620 her natural ability but also just she was lucky in the fact that she he was around like i don't

03:13:16.660 know if anyone else could have designed a boat big enough to do all these things that she was

03:13:20.160 asking him to do or could have designed an obelisk that big and she was lucky that the nile was good

03:13:25.720 and she was lucky that the mentors she had but then ultimately like luck only takes you so far

03:13:32.700 like she she did that yeah yeah and she was also lucky that the the people that whether she paid

03:13:41.400 them off or not but just she was lucky in the fact that people around her were willing to go along

03:13:46.880 with it because you know sometimes people don't have a price you know and so she was lucky enough

03:13:55.960 where either she was able to meet their price or they just didn't care they just supported her

03:14:01.680 because they supported her because that's not a guarantee you know you have how many people that

03:14:07.280 get paid off to do whatever yet they still find a way to turn on you later on and they didn't do

03:14:13.440 that to her. So she had a lot of luck. I would say luck was probably about 20%. 80% was just her

03:14:21.080 being a badass. I love her. I, all week I've just been like Gina, I can't wait to just talk about 0.99

03:14:29.360 how amazing hat is for like three hours, which is what we just did. You know what? Not as long as

03:14:36.880 some of our other talks, but yeah. Do you have any, any final thoughts about hat or anything?

03:14:42.180 I just wish that people that have any sort of interest whatsoever in learning about history would take the time to learn about her, because it is so worth it. And we know enough about men that are considered to be great, that accomplished whatever it is they had their scribes say they accomplished. Whether they accomplished it or not, I don't know.

03:15:07.000 the fact that we have records of what she accomplished I have to believe that she actually 0.80

03:15:13.580 did because if a woman tried to say that she accomplished something that she didn't they would

03:15:18.340 not allow her to say that she did so the fact that we have all this proof that this woman 0.89

03:15:24.180 just was the badass that she was please take the time to get to know something about her

03:15:31.300 because you will not regret it I promise you you just I mean it's just it's inspiring honestly

03:15:40.520 I mean it just is because to see someone that that knew had so much going against her yet still

03:15:48.320 put her foot down and went for it anyways and accomplished it why can't I in today's world

03:15:56.060 accomplish the things that I want to accomplish because I don't have to worry about someone

03:15:59.860 trying to kill me usually I you know I don't have to worry about my boys poisoning me because

03:16:06.720 you know they think that I have too much power over them or whatever I don't have to worry about

03:16:11.400 a lot of things that she had to worry about so why can I not be great no I agree and really well

03:16:18.280 said I find her so inspirational as well just as somebody it's again it's just it's really rare

03:16:24.860 in the sort of history that I studied to find a woman who was like ambitious and smart and savvy

03:16:29.720 and did it and thrived and and did it unapologetically yeah i mean you it didn't

03:16:39.920 appear to me that she was ever asking for permission she was just doing it yeah it's

03:16:46.460 and and you know the funny i had forgotten about this but it's it's she had it inscribed in many

03:16:52.720 places that um i'm paraphrasing that um if you support me and you go along with what i want 0.97

03:16:59.220 cool you'll be rewarded but if you go against me your ass is grass and i'm a lawnmower so she she 0.99

03:17:06.280 had it inscribed in numerous places that support me and you'll benefit go against me you die that's 1.00

03:17:12.520 like you know what great motto right people took her seriously and she meant it yeah i just you

03:17:23.080 know i could talk about these ladies in history for hours whether they accomplished what hat did 1.00

03:17:28.020 or not. I could talk about them for hours because every one of them played a very pivotal role in

03:17:33.500 the history of their society. It might not have been on as grand of a scale as Pat, but they still

03:17:41.560 played a pivotal role. And the history of their society wouldn't be what it is had it not been

03:17:48.280 for these women. And so that's why I like to study them because there's a lesson to be learned in

03:17:55.360 in every one of their stories you just have to be willing to learn yeah exactly and well just

03:18:01.680 when you were saying before about there's so many people in history so many men in history who are

03:18:06.820 studied and talked about so much i was like yeah there's just that pointless recent movie about

03:18:11.760 napoleon which was right we've all heard about him enough we don't need that

03:18:18.560 where's the hat movie and you know the thing is we don't even need any more cleopatra no

03:18:27.320 we're good we don't need we don't need any more elizabeth the first we don't honestly the women

03:18:34.080 that we've heard about the most we don't necessarily need to hear about them more we've

03:18:40.160 we've heard about them about as much as we really truly need to and for some of us as much as we 0.64

03:18:45.580 want to let's start talking about some of these other women that accomplish great things that 1.00

03:18:51.300 you don't talk about as often because i promise you you're going to get a whole new group of 0.98

03:18:57.060 fans you start talking about these new people because it's going to be new things that they

03:19:02.180 they didn't know it's going to be to them original and you know we've got all these remakes of tv

03:19:09.540 shows and movies and cartoons and all that we're we're in a remake society right now let us have

03:19:16.100 something original and there's plenty to pull from so many there's so many but and it goes beyond

03:19:23.160 egypt it goes beyond greece and rome there's so much world history to pull from that just gets

03:19:31.220 ignored yeah and it's always the same it's just yeah exactly it's like oh another cleopatra movie

03:19:35.840 it's like she was great but like what about hat what about nefertiti like what about so many people

03:19:44.240 yeah i don't know when the napoleon movie came out i was just like are you kidding me who wants

03:19:51.620 this and apparently in that movie they show his army like shooting the nose off the sphinx or

03:19:56.620 something i forget yeah that i don't know i don't know if that happened it could have i don't know

03:20:03.880 i feel like napoleon wants he's played out well and i think he also knew that the ancient

03:20:10.320 egyptians were so famous and renowned and he wanted to like relate himself with them

03:20:15.920 so he wanted to have his name said with their names and i just said his name with their names

03:20:21.500 but in a derogatory way and the thing about it is is you know if you think about it um the sphinx

03:20:27.100 was completely covered up to its nose in sand by the time any real anyone realized it was there

03:20:33.060 so if the nose was the protruding part that was exposed all that time with all the wind in the

03:20:40.700 sand whipping against it what makes you think that that didn't just erode away why does it

03:20:47.240 have to be that he came and shot that nose off why can't it be just natural elements ate away

03:20:53.600 at that storm i mean come on napoleon anyway gina yeah thank you i'm excited for whatever

03:21:04.360 the next thing is we're going to talk about it's going to be romans next time it's going to be

03:21:07.860 romans because we want to again i don't want to just like pigeonhole you it's just like only

03:21:12.380 egypt okay you let me know what section of roman history you want to talk about and we will talk

03:21:18.480 about it yeah i'll give i'll give us both time to read up on it so we can really have a good

03:21:22.760 discussion. Thank you so much. I'm always so happy to have you on the show.

03:21:25.560 Thanks for having me back. I enjoy talking with you.

03:21:33.980 And so having survived that episode, congratulations to all of you. I could never

03:21:40.960 take out any part of that. There was, we had to, every single word was necessary to discuss

03:21:45.840 this iconic person. It's really, what it really made me think about is stories of people like

03:21:51.120 fredigand for instance who long-time listeners of the show know fredigand and how much she means to

03:21:57.140 me but it's like the way that hat was able to do what she did and everyone supported her like she

03:22:03.880 didn't have to half of i don't know 85 of what fredigand was up to was just swatting away these

03:22:09.820 people who were like a woman in charge no that's weird like hat just got it done so it's it's i 1.00

03:22:15.900 respect the hell out of her. And actually I do want to mention, I mentioned in the episode that

03:22:22.060 I was so hyped up on, on hat that I in fact purchased a necklace and I did, and I purchased

03:22:27.620 from our brand partner, common era jewelry. So common era jewelry is, I love this brand. I love

03:22:34.940 that we're in this partnership with each other. So it is a small business that makes jewelry

03:22:40.100 inspired by women like hat of the classic era as well as um women from mythology like greek and

03:22:48.120 roman and egyptian mythology actually and the jewelry pieces are beautiful it's a woman-owned

03:22:54.860 business and for a lot of their pieces they use recycled gold and they make their pieces to order

03:22:59.360 so there's not that waste um the pieces are made entirely in new york city so everyone involved has

03:23:04.560 healthcare in good wages. And so Hatshepsut, aka Hatshepsut, is part of the collection they have

03:23:12.680 called the Difficult Women Collection. And that's like, honestly, the overlap between the people in

03:23:17.860 the Difficult Women Collection and people we've talked about on this podcast is substantive.

03:23:22.320 There's, you can get pieces inspired by Boudicca, Cleopatra, Agrippina, as well as Anne Boleyn,

03:23:28.280 as well as mythological people like medusa aphrodite um sappho is there and yeah i was

03:23:37.440 just excited like i was already working this gina and i have been planning to do this episode for

03:23:41.600 quite a while by the time i started my brand partnership with common era jewelry and i was

03:23:45.780 so excited that hat was one of the people there and then as i was researching hat i was just like

03:23:49.620 i worship this woman i love i love hat so much i need to get the necklace and so i did anyway if

03:23:57.620 you are also similarly moved, that you need to pay tribute to hat or anyone else via jewelry,

03:24:03.800 please know you can get 15% off all items from Common Era by going to commonera.com

03:24:09.260 slash vulgar or using code vulgar at checkout. That's commonera.com slash vulgar and 15% off

03:24:16.860 using code vulgar at checkout. If you want to get Vulgar History specific merchandise,

03:24:22.820 you can get that at vulgarhistory.com slash store, which takes you to our Tee Public store.

03:24:27.660 And that's the best shipping for people in the US. If you live not in the US, you can get merch

03:24:33.080 at vulgarhistory.redbubble.com. And the shipping there is a bit more reasonable for non-US people.

03:24:41.360 And you can also follow me slash this podcast. You know, I'm kind of starting vulgar history.

03:24:49.900 It's a brand, you know, and I'm really diversifying the portfolio of what vulgar history is.

03:24:54.860 And part of what I'm doing is I have a sub stack newsletter now.

03:24:58.700 So it's called vulgar history a la carte.

03:25:01.140 And at the moment I'm going through just some, I'm revisiting some pieces I'd written before

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03:25:10.840 I hardly knew her about the wives of King Henry the eighth.

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03:26:40.260 Melgar Peace Theater episodes tend to be two and a half to three hours long,

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03:26:45.900 Lana Wood Johnson and Alison Epstein talk about costume dramas,

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03:26:50.700 which is why you got a real variety of things.

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03:27:39.880 purchase that for five dollars as a one-off thing you don't have to become a member or anything 0.97

03:27:44.240 and um you can always get in touch with me i do want to say i like i love hearing from you like

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03:28:03.420 Quintralla, like that was entirely suggested by one of you. And I just want to say, I read every

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03:28:18.920 the La Quintralla episode from last week, which was a listener suggestion, it had been suggested

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03:29:12.040 to the vulgar history discord the the salon international and so we're all hanging out there

03:29:17.620 as well and transcripts of recent episodes are available at vulgarhistory.com thank you to

03:29:23.140 Aveline Malik for providing these transcripts. And next week, I like, I've started doing these

03:29:30.840 teasers. So you kind of know what's coming up next week. Next week, we're going to be getting

03:29:36.280 into an episode that was actually suggested by somebody on Patreon. There's also a chat on

03:29:42.340 Patreon. I really want to make it as easy as possible for you to send me messages. Anyway,

03:29:47.560 this is a somebody was mentioned in the chat on patreon and i was like oh you know what that i

03:29:54.240 that is a good idea maybe i should look into that and then i found the most amazing guest

03:29:58.080 to talk about it and what i'm going to say about next week's episode is it does take place

03:30:02.400 in the western hemisphere um in the america's turtle island and it's really going to be laying

03:30:10.720 some track it's going to be the stuff we're talking about next week and the week after as

03:30:15.660 well, actually are really going to help line everything up. So when we start season seven,

03:30:20.880 the topic of which I will be announcing very soon, um, we'll all already have some kind of

03:30:27.380 background. So we'll know where we're, where we're going with season seven. Anyway, that's all I can

03:30:31.900 say for next week's episode until next week. Uh, keep your pants on and your tits out. 1.00

03:30:39.560 Folger history is hosted, written, and researched by Anne Foster and edited by Christina Lumagi. 0.99

03:30:45.660 To be continued...

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Vulgar History - April 03, 2024

The First Female Egyptian Pharaoh, Hatshepsut

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Transcript