Vulgar History - Mary, Queen of Scots： Part Nine： In My End Is My Beginning

00:00:00.000 hello and welcome to vulgar history a feminist women's history comedy podcast we're talking

00:00:18.180 about mary queen of scots there's something about mary queen of scots this is part nine

00:00:22.460 i'm joined by allison apstein allison welcome thank you thank you happy to be back for part

00:00:27.560 nine remember when you thought this could be four it is to laugh yeah and this is part nine and i

00:00:36.260 do want to just let everybody know there will be a part 10 so you know this i we're gonna all gently

00:00:42.080 wean ourselves off of this discussion the references i'm very very excited to tell you

00:00:47.840 the references for this episode because one of them is mary's recently unciphered secret sexy

00:00:53.960 code letters oh yeah oh my gosh this is like I was planning I think it was in February of this

00:01:02.100 past year 2023 where it was revealed that these letters were unciphered and I was already planning

00:01:06.940 like I was in the midst of doing this season I'm like great you know like when I get to that part

00:01:10.600 of the story I'm excited to read those letters so I didn't really read up about it until preparing

00:01:14.700 for this episode and I'm just like oh my god this is really exciting have you seen that there's other

00:01:19.700 people who are not me are really excited that this like book of hours that was owned by thomas

00:01:25.100 more yeah like some people are really excited it's like oh my god it's the book he's holding

00:01:30.760 his portrait and i'm just like okay i think thomas more is whatever but like show me more

00:01:35.480 letters from mary that's way more fun it's way more fun it was really exciting so john guy who

00:01:40.980 i didn't use his book for this episode but i his biography of american of scots was the one that

00:01:45.980 was the basis for the Saoirse Ronan movie.

00:01:48.760 It's the biography I mostly used as a source

00:01:51.300 for the first three quarters of this series.

00:01:54.480 Anyway, he was quoted as saying,

00:01:56.000 like, this is the most significant

00:01:56.960 Mary Queen of Scots discovery in 200 years.

00:01:59.040 This changes everything.

00:02:00.440 And he's not wrong.

00:02:01.600 It's really exciting.

00:02:03.220 And it adds a real flavor and color to this episode

00:02:05.460 that, like, none of the biographies I read include

00:02:07.800 because it was just discovered just recently.

00:02:10.640 So, but I will shout out the biographies I used.

00:02:12.440 So, the betrayal of Mary Queen of Scots,

00:02:14.300 Elizabeth I and her greatest rival,

00:02:15.720 by Kate Williams,

00:02:17.020 Embroidering Her Truth

00:02:18.060 by Claire Hunter.

00:02:19.560 Gotta get that textile

00:02:20.680 embroidery discussion

00:02:21.800 of which there will be

00:02:23.300 in this episode as well.

00:02:24.900 Imprisoning Mary Queen of Scots,

00:02:26.220 The Men Who Kept the Stuart Queen

00:02:27.580 by Mickey Mayhew,

00:02:29.040 published by Pen and Swordbrook.

00:02:30.980 An article from History Today

00:02:33.300 by Cyril Hemshier,

00:02:35.340 an article from BBC.

00:02:37.480 And then,

00:02:38.360 and I'm going to put the link

00:02:40.400 to this in the show notes.

00:02:41.400 So from Cryptologia Magazine

00:02:45.080 for cryptology enthusiasts. The academic journal, I should say, for cryptology enthusiasts.

00:02:51.600 I'm an article called Deciphering Mary Queen of Scott's Lost Letters from 1578 to 1584 by George

00:02:56.720 Lasry, Norbert Bierman, and Satoshi Tomokyo, which they made available online to anybody.

00:03:03.420 Thank you. Thank you for not making me have to sneak into the university library

00:03:07.700 to read this paper. Thank you. I want to talk about these letters. So more than 50 letters

00:03:13.240 mary wrote were decoded by a team of crypto analysts so they helped shed light on what 0.97

00:03:19.080 mary was thinking during this time period we're talking about during this spy shit so the people 0.83

00:03:23.460 who did this i love this it's just three nerds and i say that with absolute affection it's these 0.82

00:03:29.520 three guys so george lazary of israel norbert beerman of germany and satoshi tomokyo of japan

00:03:34.940 are part of an international community of code breakers and scholars for fun just like they just

00:03:42.040 go to archives look up letters that are in code and just try to figure out the codes on those

00:03:47.020 letters they weren't being like we're gonna find mary queen scott's papers they're just guys who

00:03:49.900 just do this and it turns out these are mary queen scott's papers they all have day jobs

00:03:53.980 can you imagine being like a amateur code breaker just going through a letter being like hang on 0.93

00:04:00.940 guys hang on what the fuck this letter that we're decoding that we found in an old book somewhere in 0.99

00:04:06.020 italy is mary queen of scots's letter like i would lose my fucking mind well no and that's the thing 0.99

00:04:12.620 so just reading about them and their discovery they found stuff like so the letters are written 0.89

00:04:16.360 in code in french like it's french letters put into code so they i'm gonna say in english but

00:04:22.440 like it would say like my son or like my imprisonment so like okay so these were written by

00:04:26.540 like a woman who's imprisoned who has a son and then they got the name walsingham and they're like 0.95

00:04:31.540 walsingham walsingham like hold on and then they're like holy shit because they were just

00:04:39.640 in these random italian archives with other papers that had just been misfiled basically

00:04:43.900 so these guys i want to tell you they all have day jobs george lazary is a computer scientist

00:04:48.840 norbert bierman is a pianist and musical coach and satoshi tomokyo is an astrophysicist

00:04:54.680 they're straight up just nerds with a hobby i love so they joined forces on this project

00:05:03.540 which began as a part of a larger effort to decipher archival documents and they ended up

00:05:08.540 uncovering more than 55 letters that mary wrote during her time in england so what's cool about

00:05:14.240 these letters everything one thing that i was so excited i had to tell allison already is that mary

00:05:19.980 uses code names so part of the way the cipher works is there's like a symbol that means a

00:05:24.120 certain person but when she starts using codename for a person she has to write in the letter like

00:05:27.880 henceforth this means this so she gives nicknames to all these guys just like i do on this podcast

00:05:35.420 i was like she's just like me oh my god careened into my dms being like mary's got nicknames for 0.99

00:05:42.820 all these assholes too and i was just so happy like she's also like there's too many fucking 0.96

00:05:48.120 men named james let me just draw those things it's like no anyway just reading these letters 0.99

00:05:54.000 i'm just like first of all mary is just like what i thought she was like like just like the books

00:05:57.800 i've read where people are saying like she did this this means this is probably what she was

00:06:00.820 thinking and then i sort of extrapolate that to be like this is kind of the person i think she is 1.00

00:06:04.860 and the letters make it clear that that is what she was like she was that bitch yeah she wasn't 0.89

00:06:11.160 just sitting around being sad i love them because there's new information in there but at the same 0.96

00:06:15.320 time it does not force me to rethink anything i thought i knew about mary because she is so

00:06:19.460 fucking consistently that person that like her voice is so loud and everything i've ever read 0.67

00:06:25.600 from her or about her i'm just like it's more mary but it's exactly the same it's great well 0.98

00:06:32.060 and it's great because these were letters that were written in french put into cipher decoded

00:06:35.740 retranslated back into english and you still get her personality like her writing is so evocative

00:06:40.920 like there's such a voice to it she's like snarky and bitchy and because these were ciphered letters

00:06:46.600 She doesn't have to be like, my dear, esteemed gentleman. 1.00

00:06:49.200 She's writing just like this fucking bitch. 1.00

00:06:50.860 Not those words. 1.00

00:06:51.780 But that's the vibe.

00:06:52.740 Yeah, the spirit.

00:06:54.340 She's being honest in these letters in a way that she's not in official letters we've seen before.

00:06:59.200 Because she can.

00:06:59.860 She doesn't think anybody but the recipient's ever going to read this.

00:07:03.260 So like, we're getting unfiltered Mary Gwyneth.

00:07:05.700 God, she's just so petty about it.

00:07:08.980 It's so good.

00:07:10.180 She's exactly who I thought she was, which was reassuring and like exciting.

00:07:14.480 but yeah so in the one letter she wrote this gentleman who will be called between us

00:07:18.880 la tour and that's why i sent allison so i was like this gentleman between us known as wd-40

00:07:25.340 councilman jeremy jam so exciting so exciting so just to recap because perhaps if you're not just

00:07:37.460 binging all these episodes in a day like some sort of person who has 12 hours in a row last time we

00:07:43.460 were talking about, Mary went to England. There was this fake show trial that ended with her 1.00

00:07:48.760 being found neither guilty nor innocent of Darnley's murder. And so she's just in a holding

00:07:53.120 pattern. But basically, there was the Norland Rebellion. There was no obvious connection

00:07:58.620 between that. But the Rodolfi plot kind of made it seem like, oh, and this is probably like,

00:08:04.020 did Cecil get Rodolfi to do all this? Because basically, Mary was no longer being held captive

00:08:08.360 because she might have killed Darnley. She's not captive because by her perhaps involvement in the

00:08:13.220 Rodolfi plot, she had maybe tried to kill Elizabeth. So it's just like, Cecil had reason

00:08:18.520 to keep her there now indefinitely. Elizabeth refused to condemn her. Parliament kept trying

00:08:24.780 to force Elizabeth to treat Mary as a common subject and put her on trial. But Elizabeth 0.99

00:08:28.280 always refused that because Mary was a queen. She was not Elizabeth's subject. This would 0.98

00:08:33.380 undermine Elizabeth, like the authority of queens in general. But she did agree if Mary did anything

00:08:39.380 again. Like they're really fencing her in with these like, if anyone thinks that Elizabeth might

00:08:44.380 die, if someone else does a rebellion, even if it wasn't Mary, she'll be liable. Like if she did

00:08:49.540 anything ever again, she could be tried by a set of nobles is what Elizabeth decided. So Cecil is

00:08:56.600 just like, okay, like I really need to get indisputable evidence to get Elizabeth, this

00:09:01.900 person who just like will never commit to anything to actually agree to find Mary guilty of something.

00:09:08.920 So like the laws are set up so that it can be the flimsiest evidence possible. But Elizabeth personally is not going to give him the go ahead unless she's sure. So they still do. They can't just like wave their hands and say she's guilty. They still need something, not for legal reasons, but for convince the queen so she'll pull the trigger reason.

00:09:30.180 exactly and so they needed like cecil and walsingham need mary to be complete like clearly

00:09:35.940 complicit in a plot to murder elizabeth and the evidence has it can't just be casket letters 0.91

00:09:40.760 erotic fan fiction it needs to be like mary writing in a letter like hell yeah let's kill liz 0.97

00:09:46.040 like they need that meanwhile mary at this point disenchanted with the legal quote-unquote system 1.00

00:09:53.300 which i presume she hadn't for a while so she needed to scheme her way out of this on her own 0.94

00:09:57.440 Like, before she'd been like, I'm just going to wait until Elizabeth, like, sees my son.

00:10:00.400 I'm going to marry T-Dog. 1.00

00:10:01.400 But now she's just like, fuck this. 1.00

00:10:02.500 I need to do some spy shit. 1.00

00:10:04.140 Get Spain up in here. 0.99

00:10:05.400 Like, let's go. 1.00

00:10:06.700 Yeah.

00:10:07.120 This is no longer, let's try to get Elizabeth on my side and maybe it'll all go.

00:10:10.900 This is like, this is burn it down era, Mary.

00:10:13.780 What else is she going to do? 1.00

00:10:15.460 She's got her back against the wall and we know how Mary acts when her back is against 1.00

00:10:19.520 the wall. 0.99

00:10:20.060 She's like, let's turn my scheme up to 15 and burn down whatever we have to, to get

00:10:24.880 out of this.

00:10:25.420 This is, this is.

00:10:27.440 Yeah. This is Mary fork in eye energy. So it is by now 1572. So it's been like four or five years

00:10:38.440 since she's been in England. So she's still in Sheffield with Mr. and Mrs. Bess of Hardwick.

00:10:42.740 And I need to update you with several things that happened this year in other countries.

00:10:47.640 So August, 1572, the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre happens in France. 1.00

00:10:52.540 So that's where her Deguese uncles cause yet another massacre. 1.00

00:10:58.180 Mark that on your bingo card. 1.00

00:10:59.780 Along with Catherine de' Medici are responsible for the massacre of numerous Protestants in France.

00:11:07.300 We talk about that in the Catherine de' Medici episode.

00:11:09.520 I talk about that in the Queen Margot episode.

00:11:11.400 Not going to get into it now.

00:11:12.520 Lots of other things to discuss. 0.99

00:11:14.300 What this means to Mary is it makes Elizabeth in England wary of Catholics in general.

00:11:18.500 even more than before after the pope had already excommunicated elizabeth and said anyone who

00:11:23.900 wants you can murder her now they're actually going around and murdering protestants so yeah

00:11:28.840 so just like it's like this happened in france so like what what if this makes the catholics 0.63

00:11:33.200 in england start killing protestants here elizabeth is a protestant but also they're like

00:11:37.900 the degeezes were involved mary is a degeez so like that makes them more it's like she had nothing 0.96

00:11:43.480 to do with that specifically but it's just like the diggy's relationship ever more fucks it up

00:11:49.040 for her super reasonable actually on elizabeth's part to be like i am not feeling great about this

00:11:54.180 like yeah i get it that october so most recently the regent for baby bj james the king of scotland 0.96

00:12:04.220 a little boy the earl of mar dies probably being poisoned by the other assholes so they have to 0.54

00:12:10.380 choose a new region again and this time they choose jeremy jam from parks and recreation 0.97

00:12:13.900 which is bad news because he has always hated mary continues to hate mary he will side with

00:12:21.240 elizabeth against her like that's his whole vibe november of the same year this is where it was

00:12:27.040 really crucial to i just wanted this chronology because i'm like so many things happen in what

00:12:31.980 order yeah so john knox dies hey hallelujah so he dies at home surrounded by his friends and

00:12:40.120 some of the greatest scottish nobles around him he asked for the bible to be read aloud and his

00:12:45.440 child bride margaret did so he was buried at saint giles church in edinburgh which was destroyed in

00:12:51.400 1633 not sure why and the precise site of his grave cannot be established anymore good i wonder

00:12:58.520 if there's john knox ghosts anywhere just oh you know he just shows up anywhere there are more than

00:13:03.920 three women at the same time just being like it's a whore and this is my favorite thing so in his 0.62

00:13:11.520 will he claimed well he was basically explaining why he didn't he wasn't leaving very much money 0.97

00:13:15.700 to anybody and he said none have i corrupted none have i defrauded merchandise have i not made

00:13:21.980 and i laughed and laughed when i read that because i was like he is my enemy and i'm like

00:13:27.820 merchandise i have made with his name on it where is your god now john knox i've made a minimal amount 0.67

00:13:36.280 of money from that so suck it yeah yeah it is the best selling merch i've ever done is john knox 0.92

00:13:43.080 anti-john knox merch anyway so just so you know his child bride who is now an adult but was married 0.97

00:13:48.220 as a child margaret married again someone called andrew kerr who was uh one of those involved in

00:13:54.780 the murder of David Rizzio. And at first I was like, Margaret. But then I was like, well,

00:13:59.160 how many men in Scotland who were nobles weren't involved in the murder of David Rizzio?

00:14:03.080 There were 200 of them, right? So yeah, that's fair.

00:14:07.320 It's hard to find someone who wasn't. John Knox's death was barely noticed at the time.

00:14:12.420 Although his funeral was attended by the nobles of Scotland, no major politician or diplomat

00:14:16.340 mentioned his death in their surviving letters. Because he sucks. Mary, Queen of Scots, made only 1.00

00:14:21.600 two brief references to him and her letters basically just being like suck it hate you 0.94

00:14:27.220 you're dead good winter turns to spring now we're in may 50 this episode like previous episodes like 0.99

00:14:34.520 the rizzio murder the darnley murder it's like okay this day this happened in the morning this

00:14:38.520 is in the afternoon it's like the whole episode takes place for three days this episode is like

00:14:42.660 a montage like think mary is in this house and time is passing she's imprisoned there's lots of

00:14:49.380 times when nothing is happening and the schemes have to move in slow motion because she can't

00:14:52.800 leave she's waiting for letters to and from so now may 1573 at which point in edinburgh so edinburgh

00:14:59.920 castle and we saw this in other episodes it's like whoever holds that castle kind of has control over

00:15:05.160 the city and until this point edinburgh castle had been held by mary supporters by people who

00:15:11.800 wanted her to return wildly the person in charge of it at this point was william kirkcaldy of grange

00:15:18.800 who had been anti-Mary in two major battles.

00:15:23.040 Last time we heard about him,

00:15:24.060 he was chasing down Bothwell in the ocean.

00:15:27.640 Anyway, he'd been on her side,

00:15:30.040 but he, along with Scottish Machiavelli,

00:15:32.840 were among her most devoted supporters.

00:15:34.780 But Jeremy Jam is the regent.

00:15:37.400 He hates Mary. 1.00

00:15:38.400 He and the Protestants capture the castle. 0.97

00:15:40.440 And with that, they claim Edinburgh. 0.85

00:15:42.200 So now the city no longer supports her,

00:15:44.200 which weakens her cause in Scotland in general.

00:15:46.220 oh and then this is let's see we already talked about him but this is december 1573 is when

00:15:53.740 walsingham is officially appointed spymaster so these things like he was already on the scene

00:15:58.860 he's kind of unofficially doing the spymaster stuff and elizabeth was like maybe we should

00:16:03.780 give you a job title because you're going to be doing this for me anyway yeah so this is where

00:16:09.140 i wrote months are just passing by like that montage in the second twilight movie and mary

00:16:14.180 is still stuck inside writing letters, embroidering increasingly gruesome things, like doing what she

00:16:20.960 can. She's also got more sophisticated with her super secret spy cipher stuff, like way back when 0.90

00:16:27.280 she was in France. Like she learned about writing letters and ciphers and codes, but she is, it's

00:16:31.800 been decades. And so she's like, there's been developments in spy shit and she's keeping up 0.97

00:16:37.200 with it so for instance she found out a way to use alum on taffeta as a kind of invisible ink 0.92

00:16:44.280 spy letters on fabric is a thing she's doing it's very her she loves a secret outfit exactly and

00:16:50.820 then also there's like in one second i'm going to ask you to explain about the letters and the

00:16:55.000 folding and the ciphers but there's also so many other things where it's like if she ordered fabric

00:16:59.720 and slightly more came than she requested that was a hint that there was a secret communication

00:17:04.440 in the parcel like there's so many things that are like not the letters themselves but things

00:17:09.660 surrounding the letters and how they were delivered would be secret clues it's just like

00:17:13.660 four-dimensional chess all the time she's so good at this green ribbons could be attached to books

00:17:19.760 to indicate specific pages or a note could be hidden in a shoe's heel like you remember when

00:17:25.440 she was sneaking out of lock levin she's like as soon as somebody hands this person a pearl earring

00:17:30.080 it will be time to get start i'm like it's just yeah yeah yeah can you explain about the ciphers

00:17:36.320 and the folding please yeah so like there's the classic cipher letter right which is just

00:17:42.240 a fancy way of saying it's in code so she would make make up her own sort of alphabet situation

00:17:48.420 where she would have her own like this symbol would mean this letter but then this symbol would

00:17:52.980 mean these three letters when they come together and this one symbol would be just this guy's name

00:17:57.860 so it was like not a one-to-one you couldn't like break it super easily she had these super

00:18:03.460 sophisticated systems that she was using but she also like didn't stop there and she would 0.94

00:18:09.820 fold the letters into these like origami situations where like you could read the

00:18:15.480 message when the letter was folded in the right way the letters would like line up in the right

00:18:19.780 order and then like if you opened it you could tell that someone had tampered with it and you'd

00:18:23.960 know that like maybe your message isn't safe and it's like this is like the low-tech cyber security

00:18:30.440 of it all is just so it's just like encrypting things and then encrypting them within her

00:18:35.160 encryption and then she's folding the letter to encrypt the actual symbols and it's just like

00:18:40.440 so intense well and then she's taking that folded letter and putting it in a pile of five other

00:18:45.600 letters and the fact that it's third in the pile that means every you know like it's and then

00:18:51.280 There's a green ribbon, so you know that it's a Tuesday, and it's just, like, insane.

00:18:55.660 Yeah.

00:18:56.220 And so this is, like, the level of these guys.

00:18:58.300 The three are friends, the astrophysicist, the music tutor.

00:19:02.380 Like, they found these letters.

00:19:04.440 They didn't know what they were.

00:19:05.200 And they're just like, okay.

00:19:06.000 So they fed them into this computer program.

00:19:07.800 The computer program, like, a contemporary, like, computer program could only decrypt 30% of it.

00:19:13.880 Yeah.

00:19:14.200 Like.

00:19:14.800 And that's why I'm such a fangirl of Walsingham, like, even though I'm Team Mary.

00:19:19.360 because like Walsam and his spies

00:19:21.740 did not have a computer algorithm

00:19:23.340 to feed these letters into.

00:19:24.860 Like they were just sitting here by hand

00:19:27.260 being like, let's break this incredibly sophisticated code

00:19:31.160 by the smartest person on this island.

00:19:34.000 And we have to do it fast 0.99

00:19:36.240 because we think she's going to assassinate the queen.

00:19:38.800 Like the stakes are so high

00:19:40.200 and the cryptology of it is so complicated

00:19:42.720 and it's 1572 and no one has AI.

00:19:46.140 It's just wild.

00:19:47.460 but this brings us to another character in this story whose name is i believe ben philippe do you

00:19:53.620 know who i mean i do no one really knows how to spell his name or what his first name is

00:19:58.040 no and this is why i call him just based on the spelling of his last name ryan philippe

00:20:03.600 is how i'm going to refer to him the actor and ex-husband of reese weatherspoon because his

00:20:09.220 last name there's so many l's and so many p's it's anyway so this guy ryan philippe he

00:20:15.080 is like the savant he's the one who like he can crack the codes he can forge anyone's handwriting

00:20:22.380 he can like sneak the seals off of letters so it doesn't look like anyone's opened these like

00:20:27.960 super sealed communications he's he's the hacker of the 1570 he can get into anything and i love

00:20:36.000 him and in my book a tip for the hangman i modeled my kit marlo off of ryan philippe because i thought

00:20:42.360 that guy was just so cool and all of his like it's just the skills you have to have to do that

00:20:47.660 it's well it's well because it's like and honestly i think like you would say like the

00:20:52.520 reason why elizabeth was successful she had walsingham and she had cecil and i would argue

00:20:56.580 and she has ryan philippe like without ryan philippe how much could walsingham have done

00:21:01.580 like this guy it's if you can't read the letters you don't have any proof of anything yeah yeah

00:21:06.040 so this guy ryan philippe he i picture it like you just said you just inspired this thought in

00:21:11.520 my head it's like in a heist movie or like an ncis or whatever there's the really weird nerd

00:21:17.520 with like no social skills but they're so good at doing this but they're so good at hacking it's

00:21:21.960 like this guy who's just like how could anyone be so good at this and yet he was and like how

00:21:27.460 fortunate that walsingham found him and that he was on that side and like walsingham spy recruitment

00:21:33.740 was so weird anyway because he was going into like colleges and universities being like this

00:21:38.040 guy seems smart i bet you he'd be really good at codes let me go get that guy like he was not going

00:21:43.060 in the nobility like let me go get one of the howards because they're powerful and they've got

00:21:47.140 good connections he's like let me go get this weirdo from oxford who's like doing lots of math

00:21:51.500 and i love that no i love it and it's so smart because in the nobility who are you gonna get 0.98

00:21:56.500 like t-dog like these guys are not dead yeah you're gonna get that asshole those guys are not 0.96

00:22:01.580 no you need these like real weird nerds yeah so weird nerds who can go undercover and like 0.99

00:22:08.000 no one's going to notice them.

00:22:09.140 You're going to see T-Daw walking down the street

00:22:10.920 and be like, is that Thomas Howard?

00:22:13.300 I should watch what he's going to do.

00:22:15.420 Like, you're not going to look at weird Oxford math man.

00:22:17.980 It's great.

00:22:19.600 He was really, I like, I'm on Mary's side,

00:22:22.700 but I respect that the other side is equally good.

00:22:26.520 Like equally good at what they're doing. 0.99

00:22:27.960 Spy shit, like the spy versus spy. 0.99

00:22:30.380 Like this whole thing has become like a John le Carré novel, 0.99

00:22:33.060 but Tudor era where it's just like really capable,

00:22:37.060 smart spies just out spying each other and it's a really it's a nice change from just like the

00:22:42.660 chaotic asshole lords just like by the 1570s everyone left involved in the story is so good

00:22:48.820 at it that like it's just so tense you start in the beginning you're like no one knows what the 0.99

00:22:54.220 fuck is going on should we stab him 86 times why not but by like the end of this you're like oh

00:23:00.500 boy we have we've all learned a thing yeah no it's a real different vibe like when she gets to 0.99

00:23:06.740 england mary like her story really shifts into what kind of story it is so by now so it's been

00:23:13.380 god knows how many years but anyway best and mr best are still in charge of her they're still

00:23:17.260 paying for her lifestyle they started this off incredibly rich and they are less so just like

00:23:24.820 the cost of keeping her there and just the responsibility of having it's like they got 0.93

00:23:28.460 married and a couple months later elizabeth was like hey can you just like take this woman go

00:23:32.800 live in your swamp house indefinitely like this is taking a toll on their marriage best and mr 1.00

00:23:38.200 best they're like they didn't really have any time to be together and be married before mary was

00:23:44.300 there and not to say that mary was like sexy and having an affair with mr best but it's just like

00:23:48.380 she's there and that's responsibility and that's really stressful it's like you have a house guest

00:23:52.800 you're not going to be like as intimate with your partner if you have someone like down the hall but

00:23:57.300 that someone down the hall might be plotting treason you're going to be like extra not in

00:24:01.080 the mood for that. Yeah. And like Mr. Bess had to always be paying attention to her and reading

00:24:06.760 all of her letters and everything. It's just like, it's a lot. They're tired. And they're broke

00:24:10.480 because she's eating 16 courses per meal. Exactly. Okay. So May 1574, at which point the

00:24:17.380 King of France, Charles IX, dies of tuberculosis, et cetera. So he had no legitimate heir. So the

00:24:24.200 new French King is his younger brother, Catherine de' Medici's next youngest son, Henri, who is

00:24:29.320 a gay crossdresser i just wanted to throw that out there because i ask you a question and about

00:24:34.740 charles was charles the one in the queen margot movie who died bleeding sweat yes okay great i

00:24:40.720 remember he was a very in real life he was a sickly person and in the movie queen margot he

00:24:46.700 is his sweat is blood and he just dies of gruesomeness really he dies of bleeding sweat

00:24:54.200 it's bad there's a lot he's wearing white margot is wearing white the red is very notable yes

00:25:00.600 favorite film which does a lot of movie of all time queen margot um anyway so he dies he was

00:25:10.760 always just a puppet for catherine de medici whatever and now henry also is really anyway

00:25:15.180 henry crucially is younger like he's so young that when mary was growing up in france france

00:25:21.620 France. I can't switch back with French names, English words. So when Mary was growing up in

00:25:28.480 France, Henri was like a little baby. Like he doesn't have any emotional connection to her

00:25:33.560 like Charles did. Like Charles was a bit younger than Mary, had a crush on her. Like, so he was

00:25:37.860 always maybe wanting to help her out a bit. Henri has no loyalty to her whatsoever. Catherine de

00:25:42.640 Medici is still anti-Mary in general. And then honestly, I was in like the timeline I wrote up

00:25:50.420 just to be able to put this all together.

00:25:52.460 August 1574, in England,

00:25:54.980 a woman named Douglas Sheffield.

00:25:58.220 A Douglas.

00:25:59.600 A female Douglas gives birth to a son

00:26:03.140 who she named Robert Dudley. 1.00

00:26:04.920 Why would this woman name her baby Bobby Duds? 0.91

00:26:07.940 Because she is his secret wife 0.89

00:26:09.600 and this is their child. 0.98

00:26:11.260 Secret wife.

00:26:13.260 But Elizabeth doesn't know about this yet,

00:26:15.160 but this comes up later.

00:26:16.760 I imagine it will.

00:26:18.440 Robert Dudley is all over this story

00:26:20.200 in a way i did not expect but i guess he's right there with elizabeth like she's got walsam cecil 0.99

00:26:25.680 ryan philippe helping her out and bobby does it's just kind of like fucking women having 0.98

00:26:30.040 illegitimate children just not darnly but like one percent not only vibes not darnly yeah yeah 0.98

00:26:37.260 i love that like bobby does keeps showing up in the story and not once does he want to be included

00:26:41.580 in this narrative every time he's like i sure hope no one brings me back into this mess and

00:26:45.960 here we are again like yeah posed to be some surprise catholic problem now there's a baby

00:26:51.840 i didn't want just leave this man alone yeah so this same month august 1574 over in france

00:26:59.700 marries uncle the cardinal the de guise cardinal dies and with him that's kind of like that

00:27:04.220 generation of de guise like the de guise uncles are now all dead spell she's like those guys who

00:27:09.780 fucked up her life are now all dead there's de guises but now they're like younger de guises 0.66

00:27:13.620 and they like she doesn't know them like they kind of don't care about her so that connection

00:27:17.180 is sort of less than it was and around this time in the house where mary was living a visitor

00:27:22.840 arrived who was her ex-mother-in-law darnley's mother margaret douglas margaret douglas margaret

00:27:30.420 douglas margaret douglas evening queen margaret douglas so she shows up and she and mary make 0.86

00:27:35.780 a mess last time we saw margaret douglas she was blaming mary for the death of darnley um being

00:27:42.120 put in the tower of london so she comes to visit why is she there so they kind of bury the hatchet

00:27:47.980 but she's kind of there because margaret douglas and best of hardwick have this scheme to get their

00:27:52.060 adult children secret mary secret sexy mary to each other and they did this by margaret douglas

00:27:57.660 showed up with her son best of hardwick's daughter was there and they kind of like

00:28:01.080 force meet cuted them sort of i don't know why it seems so weird to me that darnley had a brother

00:28:07.540 yeah imagine being his brother just watching that happen near you you're like his name was

00:28:13.460 charles charles steward sony bess's daughter elizabeth cavendish was married to darnley's

00:28:18.780 younger brother there is a painting that was done i think commissioned by margaret douglas or maybe

00:28:24.200 by her husband who's not dead yet it's like of her and i think chart like the family all in prayer

00:28:30.080 and being and baby james being like avenge me like baby james did a lot of screaming

00:28:36.600 god avenged my cause like what a what a meme that must have been it was there's so many memes in

00:28:43.780 this story not a new phenomenon at all anyways this marriage happened so it's Darnley's younger

00:28:48.940 brother Charles so the whole reason like the whole thing with Darnley was like he has a claim to the

00:28:53.680 English throne through his mother who is the daughter of Margaret Tudor Henry VIII's sister

00:28:59.160 so Charles Stewart has that same claim effectively so he married another one maybe hopefully a little

00:29:05.140 bit less shitty but who's now from what i can tell yeah less shitty um anyway so this is the

00:29:12.460 whole thing like he can't marry without elizabeth's permission but as per ever on this podcast no one

00:29:16.280 ever asked elizabeth's permission and these two become the parents of our bella stewart so

00:29:21.800 who i did an episode ago about a while ago anyway that's where she comes from but also this is some

00:29:29.000 scheming so like best of hardwick again i'm gonna do a whole episode about her but like best is like 1.00

00:29:33.660 she's embroidering and she's also doing her own scheming to try and get

00:29:37.440 her grandchild to be the new queen of england basically i'm obsessed with all of the grandma

00:29:43.540 scheming that's happening they're just like okay not me and not my son but my grandson will be king

00:29:49.780 of england i'll be dead by then but by god i'll know that i my bloodline yeah this is interesting

00:29:57.900 though too so i was i was starting to make a list and then i stopped but um of people who claim to

00:30:02.900 be like oh you know like apparently i'm descended from mary queen of scots people say that but i'm

00:30:07.920 like no one ever says if you're descended from mary queen of scots you're descended from darnley

00:30:11.560 like yeah congrats not a thing to brag about necessarily yeah and you're also descended

00:30:18.980 from margaret douglas um like i would brag about that though she's i love her she was great but

00:30:25.200 yeah i was looking up to be like because people for instance so but okay so mary queen of scots

00:30:30.400 we'll do this now because why not so she had her son is baby bj he had various children among them

00:30:37.960 were charles the first charles the first is the father of sexy charles the second my shameful

00:30:44.740 crush charles the second is the one who messed around with hortense mancini with fubs like he

00:30:51.900 had so many illegitimate children so charles the second had so many illegitimate children

00:30:55.740 there's so all of england today basically is descended from charles the second like including

00:31:01.960 um diana princess of wales and so that means like william and harry are all their little kids

00:31:07.520 but then also camilla queen camilla is descended from one of these offshoots like so many people

00:31:13.240 are descended so people are always like oh i'm descended from mary queen of scots it's like no

00:31:16.980 you're descended from fubs like you're descended from like

00:31:19.980 like people always say a lot of people are descended from mary queen of scotts via 0.99

00:31:26.800 all of her her like man whore descendants yeah yeah they got around she only had one kid 0.51

00:31:35.400 they went no and also if you're just from mary queen scotts you're descended from baby bj 0.95

00:31:40.340 like like james the sixth slash first like you can't be like i choose this one ancestor

00:31:47.920 there's so many dirt bags in this family tree but i only got genes from her it's like no they

00:31:52.880 were filtered down through if you go in any direction on this family tree you're like oh 0.98

00:31:57.020 a shitty person and a worse person and a worse person here's the one good person i will claim

00:32:01.320 descendants yeah it's just interesting to me how many people i was gonna do a meme on and i might 0.97

00:32:06.100 still i was gonna post pictures of people and people could vote which of these descendants do

00:32:10.480 you think they're more merry or more darnly i might still do that i don't know um but i mean i feel

00:32:15.960 like in the modern royal family we all know our answers but we won't get into that that's the

00:32:20.620 thing and do i want to get into that it kind of goes without saying anyway so elizabeth found out

00:32:27.640 about this treason marriage of charles darnley's brother to bess of hardwick's daughter so as per

00:32:34.540 ever you know her permission had not been asked for or granted like you know what i make fun of

00:32:39.880 but it's like she's like my subjects i ask of you one thing to ask my permission before you get

00:32:46.620 married no one ever does of course she gets mad like it keeps happening every every one of the 0.69

00:32:52.160 thrones marriages it keeps being treason grandmas trying to hook up their kids and like she's not 1.00

00:32:57.980 wrong to ask them not to do that no exactly move yeah so she sent margaret douglas to the tower of 0.55

00:33:05.800 london a place she had been by now two or three times i love this best of heart was summoned to

00:33:11.160 london but just didn't go i i cannot emphasize enough how hard i would watch the hbo miniseries

00:33:20.220 treason grandmas of the tudor times like they're so real treason housewives yeah the real treason

00:33:26.580 housewives yes so but this is like mary's opportunity so bess is in disgrace darnley's

00:33:32.840 mom is in jail and mary is like what if i try and win over elizabeth via embroidery so she's had a

00:33:41.080 hookup like a fabric hookup forever right she's always like because she and mary seat and are 0.99

00:33:44.920 finding out what's the latest what are the cuffs what are the what are the lace trims like she's

00:33:49.780 keeping up with her fashion and so she got her fabric source to send her and these are some of

00:33:53.200 the letters i forget if this is from the claire hunter book or from mary's letters but she's like

00:33:57.660 i want this specific fabric she sent like a swatch she's like i want it to be like this but a bit more

00:34:02.300 red, some silver thread. And what she did is she embroidered Elizabeth a skirt. Like she made a 0.97

00:34:08.720 skirt and then put embroidery. The embroidery was in silver. It was the intertwined floral devices

00:34:14.020 of Scotland and England, the thistle and the rose mixed with other blossoms. The red was meant to

00:34:19.060 remind Elizabeth of their shared blood as family members. And being sewn by Mary personally was

00:34:25.640 the ultimate appeal of this garment because hand sewing for someone else was so intimate. It wasn't

00:34:31.240 just like hey i bought you this gift card it's like i crafted this for you and mary's still a

00:34:36.980 queen like that's queen elizabeth saying i'm going to make you an outfit and hand it to you

00:34:41.820 personally like if that happened to any english subject they would just like die of honor like

00:34:46.740 that's well this is like in her fashion sense and her embroidery vibes i just like oh my god this

00:34:54.500 is like i don't know christian siriano made this for me personally like it would be just the fashion

00:34:59.900 side of it anyway who's also the president of the united states like that's the vibe yeah

00:35:05.680 it's true it's true so i'm trying to who's a person who's both very fashionable and also

00:35:09.480 very politically powerful i don't know i'm like michelle obama was the first one i thought of

00:35:13.800 yeah it's like michelle obama like stitched me or she like hand beaded these earrings like you

00:35:18.800 would die so apparently elizabeth said oh this skirt is very nice and this made mary mary heard

00:35:24.720 about this she was really excited like elizabeth i think wore the skirt and so then mary sent along

00:35:28.740 three night headdresses like like a little christmas carol nightcaps ebenezer scrooge and

00:35:36.420 yes wonderful i love it i i think that would win you over it would so anyway yeah so mary's just

00:35:42.720 she's embroidering she and beth are creating all these embroideries suggestive of mary's life as

00:35:48.800 discussed previously some of them more traumatic than others some of them just cute little frogs

00:35:55.080 yeah some just a frog some of them just being like oh my god just like a flower being devoured

00:36:00.600 by a caterpillar and it says on it a canker like she's got it i just love her labeling system it's

00:36:08.660 really really it's true it's true it's so good and i talked about this like again i'm just like

00:36:13.960 teasing this episode that's coming but it was one of the first things i recorded is my chat with

00:36:17.320 claire hunter who she describes in her book and we talk in the episode that's coming up later

00:36:21.540 next week actually about how mary and bess had this like vision so they're both making these

00:36:27.520 little embroideries and they were and their plan was to make this big embroidery comprised of 0.80

00:36:32.720 little embroideries and like the spy shit like they were all allegorical drawn like images and 0.72

00:36:39.100 the order that they put them in would like mean something and we don't know what order they were 0.88

00:36:43.760 supposed to be in now we just have them but like the two of them are putting together this like

00:36:47.820 really smart interesting meaningful thing like it's really they're this magnum opus they were

00:36:55.060 working on yeah like a like a quilt code kind of yeah yeah so again like the code of it all like

00:37:01.080 yeah it's really again it's just like show some respect to embroidery the world like it's so

00:37:07.580 interesting because mary couldn't do anything without making it into a scheme like every

00:37:11.940 single thing she's like i really enjoy embroidery what if i combine it with my only other passion

00:37:15.800 schemes exactly so this is years like she and best are just sitting around like they're stitching

00:37:22.880 there's one quote i read that mary wrote that she basically would embroider until the pain

00:37:28.480 made her stop like that embroidery the cat it is something like 10 000 stitches in it like she was

00:37:34.280 like this is so much time and effort went into this but she's spending this time with best and

00:37:40.280 best knows stuff about elizabeth because she'd been a lady and waiting for elizabeth so mary's

00:37:43.960 like, tell me more about Elizabeth. Oh, that's interesting. So she's like learning stuff.

00:37:48.320 She knows like, oh, Elizabeth likes red skirts with embroidered thistles. Interesting. Like

00:37:52.840 she's just like learning stuff as well. Meanwhile, the Bess and Mr. Bess marriage

00:37:57.860 continues to break down because of everything. Bess did accuse Mr. Bess of having an affair with

00:38:06.600 Mary. In fact, she told Elizabeth that this was happening in retaliation because you don't know

00:38:11.580 one spreads a rumor about mary without mary like making opposing accusation yeah so mary wrote to 1.00

00:38:18.980 elizabeth being like oh well you know what here's what best told me about you and how much sex you're 1.00

00:38:23.680 having in the back door with bobby duds or whatever to sort of slander best so this letter exists the 1.00

00:38:31.060 letter being like well here's all the shit best said about you such a letter is never recorded 0.87

00:38:35.600 as being received by elizabeth but cecil had it in his files so you know he sent it absolutely the 0.93

00:38:43.240 fuck not will i pass that along pretty much yeah so part of mary's ongoing just like everything

00:38:51.900 is like she hadn't seen her son i didn't say this every book mentions she saw the last time she saw 0.97

00:38:57.800 her son james was he was 10 months old she went to visit him and then she was kidnapped by bothwell

00:39:02.320 and now here we all are.

00:39:03.720 Every single book mentions when she sees him

00:39:05.500 and this was the last time she saw her son.

00:39:07.400 I didn't want to say that in the podcast

00:39:08.700 because there's a lot of people

00:39:09.720 who don't know this story.

00:39:10.680 But that was the last time she saw her son.

00:39:12.520 She saw him when he was 10 months old.

00:39:14.000 It's now been whatever,

00:39:14.920 like 10 years or something.

00:39:16.680 Like she has not seen him.

00:39:18.900 She's not allowed to communicate with him.

00:39:20.360 This is really hard for her.

00:39:22.340 He's a whole human person

00:39:23.920 that she has essentially never met.

00:39:25.980 He's like a baby.

00:39:27.040 He has not developed a personality yet.

00:39:28.700 She has no idea.

00:39:29.300 And he's being raised by Alison,

00:39:31.780 George Buchanan the writer of the erotic fan fiction like that's who he's with he's like if

00:39:39.400 you watch the Doctor Who episode where Ellen Cumming plays adult James he it's the best Lana

00:39:45.960 agrees it's the best casting it's just like bisexual realness but Scottish person but the 0.91

00:39:53.620 trauma he shows in this kind of like whimsical episode of just like how he was raised to hate 0.51

00:39:59.040 his mother and how he absorbed that and how that transfers into a hatred and mistrust of women

00:40:04.260 and people like it's real like this is like the root of some like the king james bible would 0.79

00:40:11.580 perhaps be very different had mary raised him all of the witch panics of the 1700s like this is the

00:40:18.540 whole thing yeah no it's a real canon so he's being raised there mary is sending letters and

00:40:24.480 Gifts, including hand-embroidered items, a book of poems and her own handwriting.

00:40:29.900 She had different gifts she wanted to send him, little toy guns and things, and just like none of them were sent to him.

00:40:35.800 Toy guns, like the one he used to kill my brother.

00:40:40.480 She also, notably, so she created in her like embroidery frenzy, a set of bed hangings that basically tell the story of their family tree and of her life and of his life.

00:40:51.600 so it's got the emblems of the royal dynasties that they are both connected to um the house 0.95

00:40:55.980 like geese the valois the stewart lorraine along with in her way like she's doing spy shit she's

00:41:02.920 embroidering with these like meaningful images where you're just like oh look a cat but then

00:41:07.440 you learn like what it means so these hangings also have like her experience of captivity was

00:41:12.180 illustrated through illustrations of a bird in a cage a lion in a net a porcupine among sea rocks

00:41:17.960 or on a more hopeful theme, an apple tree growing on a thorn with the motto, her cause increased by

00:41:25.180 captivity. I love her inclusion of little like really meaningful phrases with images. Like

00:41:32.900 she's really got an eye anyway. So through it, all of this, like this is still happening. She's

00:41:39.160 scheming. She's doing all this stuff, but like, again, like check in with her various health 1.00

00:41:43.300 issues so like she's not thriving mentally or physically she's not allowed to move um she can't

00:41:51.520 go outside like mentally she's going been going through it for several years her hair was turning

00:41:56.820 gray with stress and illness um she had it cut off to try and help her headaches like maybe her 0.63

00:42:02.720 hair was hurting her head mary seaton worked her magic with wigs and stuff i love mary seaton

00:42:09.500 And Mary Seaton is like, I love, I love that Mary Seaton was there for.

00:42:14.480 When we get down to talking about the supporting performance, like Mary Seaton.

00:42:19.600 She's been there since France, right?

00:42:21.960 Yeah.

00:42:22.560 Yeah.

00:42:22.980 Since they were little girls.

00:42:24.180 Yeah. 0.99

00:42:24.400 And she's just like crimping her hair, making wigs, like making outfits, like ordering fabric.

00:42:29.960 Like she knows that this is like, it's a shitty situation, but these little things help Mary.

00:42:36.040 Right.

00:42:36.280 And Mary Seaton is there.

00:42:37.460 Yeah.

00:42:37.740 Make you feel like a person.

00:42:39.180 Yeah.

00:42:39.360 like Mary loves fashion. She loves looks. It's like making her feel good about how she looks 1.00

00:42:43.020 is going to help her a little bit. She had fainting fits, terrible headaches, fatigue,

00:42:47.460 stomach pains from the gastric ulcer situation. Okay. So right now, again, I put down numbers

00:42:53.160 where I could. So 1575, she's been held up in various English stately homes now for seven

00:42:58.720 years. She's 32 years old. She has built up a menagerie of pets, including turtle doves and

00:43:05.820 Barbary fowls. She wrote, besides knitting and sewing, my only pleasure is getting all the

00:43:10.880 little beasts I can find. Oh, relatable. And I think you see also like how many animals she

00:43:16.680 embroiders. Like she clearly is an animal lover. She likes to have them around her as well. 0.95

00:43:21.360 Little dogs, Allison. I love Mary's little dogs. Where, just remember she's a little dogs.

00:43:27.260 That comes up later. Anyway, so it was described as her rich diet, which I would describe as

00:43:34.240 16 course meals three times a day. This was not good for her very stomach problems.

00:43:39.980 No.

00:43:41.160 Eating all this really rich food all the time. There's potentially stress-related

00:43:45.400 irritable bowel syndrome. We just know what her symptoms are from her writings and from the

00:43:49.500 doctors. She had terrible insomnia, throwing up a lot. She did have two doctors there all the time.

00:43:55.960 I mentioned this before. She has an amethyst ring that she wore for healing purposes. It was 1.00

00:44:00.680 supposed to help with her diverse melancholies she begged her ambassador in paris for a unicorn's

00:44:05.920 horn as a remedy which at this point weren't they from um narwhals maybe i think so i don't know

00:44:13.060 where it could be from a rhinocodon or whatever she wrote rhinocerote thank you anyway mary

00:44:20.480 believed her illness was due to her broken heart she wrote no one can cure this malady as well as

00:44:25.980 the queen of england and that's the broken heart that she describes that elizabeth was not helping

00:44:29.760 her and she's um not wrong in that way because like everything that's happening to her is you

00:44:35.660 know it is physical but she's only in this physical situation because elizabeth is keeping her here

00:44:40.520 like yes exactly not being overly emotional she's like this is elizabeth's fault why i'm like this

00:44:45.840 it is anyway so she asked to be allowed to take the waters like another recurring theme of this

00:44:52.560 podcast this season bath people who like baths anyway take the waters in buxton british

00:44:59.740 listeners tell me is that still a place you can go like she's not going to bath itself but like

00:45:03.900 buxton is a place with hot springs or something and mr and mrs best actually had a house built

00:45:09.440 there so she could go there and just like hang out at the spa and she went there numerous times

00:45:15.080 over the years some thought she exaggerated her symptoms so she could go there more and honestly 1.00

00:45:19.700 maybe she did fuck you like if she did good for her i would too like 0.99

00:45:24.860 anyway so buxton it seems like but similar to bath like where it's just like other aristocrats 0.99

00:45:32.200 and nobles would go there like she would like visit people would go there because they knew

00:45:36.180 she was there like the same way it's like oh i heard there's a celebrity staying in this spa 0.99

00:45:40.840 and so then like normal people would go there to try and catch a glimpse of her like she's still

00:45:44.180 very famous bobby duds would show up like bobby duds what is your life what like i don't know

00:45:51.020 i don't against not on purpose i know a lot about the kardashians because i exist in the world but

00:45:59.820 bobby does is giving me like a scott disick vibe it's just like why are you always around

00:46:04.580 why are you what are you adding to this picture why are you why are you here yeah that's it's

00:46:11.760 just like you're here okay anyway so her sec her private secretary died and she arranged to get a

00:46:17.600 new private secretary. And actually, some of the De Guise next generation helped her out with this.

00:46:21.340 They got this French guy whose name is Claude Nau de la Boisilière. He was French with connections

00:46:27.600 to France. And it's like, how did... And so he was able to help her with a super secret,

00:46:32.380 sexy network of people sending letters back and forth to the French ambassador.

00:46:35.940 How did he get in there?

00:46:37.160 Yeah, exactly. And he got in there because the De Guises somehow gave him this like,

00:46:41.980 oh, it's like ambassador status or something where he was like officially a diplomat.

00:46:47.600 like he went to England as a diplomat

00:46:50.400 and then because he was a diplomat,

00:46:51.860 they couldn't be suspicious of him

00:46:53.740 or something like that.

00:46:54.920 Because he had like diplomatic immunity.

00:46:56.680 So it was like him running into the embassy

00:46:59.680 and being like, I can commit any crime I want.

00:47:02.320 That's, yeah.

00:47:03.380 So he came, so Claude now, great.

00:47:05.340 Great to have him on board.

00:47:06.320 This is great.

00:47:07.120 Also, I love that you clarified for me

00:47:08.920 that he was French and had connections to France

00:47:10.840 after you said his name, which, by the way.

00:47:15.280 His name, which was not James Stewart.

00:47:17.120 yeah his English was can you say it one more time for me please uh Claude now de la Boisseliere

00:47:22.740 Batman is French yeah he's French surprise okay so now 1578 she's been there now for 10 years

00:47:30.920 this year Bothwell dies in the dungeon in Denmark in England Lady Mary Grey dies in England um and 0.67

00:47:39.360 with her the whole Grey family sisters claimed the throne leaving from that side of things who

00:47:46.180 is the new threat to the throne, Ferdinando Stanley, Lord Strange, who is also in Alison's

00:47:52.840 book. Anyway, the same year, more importantly to this story, in Scotland, Jeremy Jam from

00:47:58.220 Parks and Recreation was forced to resign as regent because the asshole lords turned on him 0.99

00:48:02.200 because they just keep eating their own. Because they cannot hold their shit together, 1.00

00:48:05.760 these asshole lords. They get like, got two years in his max, then we have to shake everything up. 1.00

00:48:09.940 and so he resigned and then so bj who king james the sixth of scotland um is 11 years old and he's 0.97

00:48:20.440 just like fuck all of y'all i'm just i don't need a region do it myself i avenge my cause oh lord 0.94

00:48:27.720 like he is taking over like this was his final region um he's just like i can do this better 1.00

00:48:33.740 than you adults clearly so fuck off he was not wrong meanwhile in england bobby duds had a super 0.99

00:48:40.840 secret sexy marriage to latisse knowles which annoys elizabeth yes understandably i think 0.99

00:48:49.460 around the same time the truth about his douglas sheffield his and his child like robert dudley

00:48:56.300 had like three to four children all called robert each of them with a different secret wife right

00:49:02.360 yep yep because he's currently on he's had at least two wives he was with amy amy deadly then

00:49:10.520 she died they did they didn't have children then he was douglas sheffield then they had robert

00:49:14.200 deadly latisse knows i think already had a son called robert who was robert devereau

00:49:18.340 other dirtbag for another day then latisse and bobby did have a son who they also call robert 0.65

00:49:23.860 so it's just he's just having kids i'll call robert is what he's doing can you imagine you're

00:49:28.140 like oh i have one stepson whose name is robert what should i name my next son robert definitely

00:49:34.080 so there's three of us that's gonna be not confusing in any way that's why when ann was

00:49:38.800 trying to make a reference to one of these roberts to me earlier today i was like wait not that one

00:49:42.740 wait no ah i had to google it to remember which freaking robert is the right robert this same

00:49:48.740 year also speaking of ferdinando stanley 1578 this is the year that he the only remain the only

00:49:54.920 male heir from the gray, like from the Mary Tudor side of things, who is a Catholic and also a man,

00:50:02.360 which is why he's not the king. Mary's Alice Spencer, who we talked about in that book a while

00:50:07.720 ago. So I just wanted to mention all these things because it's like people we've talked about before

00:50:11.320 in the podcast, like Tudor era is just going on and Mary is just like in this place making 0.95

00:50:16.600 depressing embroideries, writing spy shit letters, like time is passing. So this is the first year 0.98

00:50:23.920 covered by the recently deciphered letters the letters are mainly like most of the letters they

00:50:30.520 were sent between mary they're sent from mary to michelle de kessel now so not the other guy not

00:50:37.680 claude now this is michelle de kessel now also a french person who is a french ambassador to

00:50:43.760 england so she was sending letters to him like this is where they were found there in his personal

00:50:48.500 files is where these letters came from the ciphered letters so some of these letters discuss things

00:50:53.160 is like Arbella Stewart, who is at this point, just a little baby. But so Mary is just reporting

00:50:58.620 on like everything that's going on in this house and that she hears about. She's like,

00:51:01.720 hey, castle now. Like this is the guy she's running to. She's like, I just heard this and

00:51:04.780 this and this. Tell Elizabeth that this scheme is happening, but don't tell her you heard it from me.

00:51:09.740 Like Mary is like got her finger on the pulse of everything. Part of what was happening is that

00:51:14.600 Bobby Duds is trying to get his son, one of the Roberts married to Arbella Stewart to try to make

00:51:19.760 himself be grandfather of the king or whatever like come on man what are you doing what is

00:51:25.540 happening bobby duds needs needs to like i don't know what he's doing but he's doing it incorrectly

00:51:31.500 at every turn i don't i don't even know very frustrated because i always picture him as being

00:51:36.460 played by jeremy irons so i want him to be on top of things but he is just this guy no who i picture

00:51:42.360 him being played by is joseph fines who played him in the kate blanchett movie and that goes

00:51:47.280 along with this kind of like himbo dumbass vibe yes yeah that that tracks but yeah so so i think

00:51:54.940 in the one letter mary is just like hey so bobby duds is trying to get his son married to arbella 0.91

00:51:59.020 stewart so he can so she can become the next queen is like tell elizabeth that her boyfriend 0.94

00:52:03.620 is fucking around but don't tell her i told you because then people would know that mary was 0.90

00:52:08.880 writing to castle now and so there's a whole thing where there's the official channel where 0.99

00:52:13.000 she would write to the ambassador being like, dear Mr. Ambassador, thank you for doing ambassador-like

00:52:17.800 things. So there's like official letters, but then there's these secret letters in cipher.

00:52:22.020 So anyway, she wrote also about Walsingham. She described him as being cunning. It's like he

00:52:27.560 tries to act like he's nice and your friend, but he's not really. She's like, don't trust him,

00:52:30.840 castle now. And then in the same year, eventful year, 1578, this is like, I can't not tell you

00:52:37.780 the story. So 1578, a man named Ismay Stewart arrived in Scotland. And Esmay. This is new.

00:52:46.860 Esmay is a name I've encountered twice before now, both in fiction. One of them is Esmay is the

00:52:54.440 mother of the vampire family in Twilight, Esmay Cullen. That's why Bella's daughter is called

00:52:59.680 Ren Esmay. And then Esmay is a character in one of the, in the Lemony Snicket series.

00:53:05.620 I was going to say, The Series of Unfortunate Events, that's where I first learned this name.

00:53:09.540 I know, but this is Esme Man version.

00:53:12.440 So the Wikipedia entry about Esme Stewart, which I did consult to just be like, who is he?

00:53:18.880 Does say like he popularized the name Esme.

00:53:21.200 And I'm like, not very well, because I've never encountered anyone else called Esme in Scottish history.

00:53:28.280 Okay, so Esme Stewart.

00:53:30.480 This, I promise, all leads back to Mary.

00:53:32.440 But she writes about this, so I had to learn about it.

00:53:34.560 So Esme Stewart was a cousin of Darnley's, like, surname Stewart. So he's also tall and hot, like Darnley. He's 37 years old, an adult man. And when he arrived in Scotland, little 13-year-old bisexual baby BJ is just like, who is this tall, hot person?

00:53:51.000 oh my god i love that baby's first crush he is it's like how people claimed mary acted when she 0.67

00:54:01.300 met darnley but actually like james was like this when he met esme so within a few months

00:54:07.420 bj had he like esme was his main advisor he gave him titles including he's the new lord darnley

00:54:15.100 which is a title not a name but i we use it like a name perfect so he called so he makes esme the

00:54:22.420 new lord darnley and also the new earl of lennox which was his grandfather's title so when mary

00:54:27.620 writes about him she calls him the earl of lennox and that's how the cryptographers are able to date

00:54:31.700 one of the letters because esme they know when he was named the earl it was just there's just one

00:54:36.880 july where he was the earl they're like so that must be this year of this letter so like that was 0.94

00:54:40.660 how they solved that anyway so the asshole lords very much still on the scene in scotland they're 0.76

00:54:46.480 upset about this because they didn't want anyone else influencing him other than them also esme 0.96

00:54:50.920 used to be catholic but had converted to be protestant but they're like he used to be catholic

00:54:55.400 anyway it's just a bunch of guys named james signing documents being chaotic at one point

00:55:03.360 they were threatening esme to the point that esme and 24 his armed followers had to barricade 0.86

00:55:08.280 themselves overnight against the asshole lords who i guess were like but we have the paperwork 0.98

00:55:11.980 we're gonna murder you or whatever it was old as time meanwhile bj giving esme jewels he had 0.98

00:55:19.160 inherited from his mother i don't know if it's the turtle but i feel like if that was there 0.82

00:55:24.060 he'd be like i understand that this turtle jewel has significance esme you are my ritual turtle

00:55:30.260 yeah so then a new scottish man this is like the years are passing by and titles are being

00:55:38.080 inherited by different people so i was doing so much it's like is this the same guy no it's his 0.93

00:55:41.820 son so a new guy called james stewart not hollywood icon jimmy stewart another fucking james stewart 0.87

00:55:48.340 some other guy from some other branch of the family anyway he publicly accused so 0.90

00:55:53.920 customer jeremy jam is still around he's just not the regent anymore but this guy other james stewart

00:56:00.080 hollywood icon jimmy stewart wearing a mustache in disguise i don't know he publicly excused jeremy

00:56:05.400 jam of having been involved in the darling murder like he said this in parliament or something

00:56:09.540 so jeremy jam was arrested and taken into custody it's like despite the fact that like everyone here

00:56:15.260 was complicit in the darling y'all did this every single one of you probably this other james stewart

00:56:20.000 too anyway so later he confessed that bothwell had told him about the plan but jeremy jam swore

00:56:25.860 he hadn't been personally involved but he was found guilty and was executed by an early version

00:56:31.560 of the guillotine called The Maiden.

00:56:34.860 So you know what?

00:56:36.540 Like, farewell, Jeremy Jem.

00:56:38.640 You just, like, everything was a disaster

00:56:40.720 and he just made everything worse at every turn.

00:56:42.720 He was truly like Councilman Jeremy Jem

00:56:44.500 on Parks and Rec was his vibe.

00:56:46.200 He did not help in any way.

00:56:48.320 We will not miss him.

00:56:49.620 I do appreciate, well, here's,

00:56:52.060 I messaged Lana when I was reading some of this stuff.

00:56:54.420 I was like, you know, it's gratifying to me

00:56:55.780 that anyone who was like against Mary

00:56:57.960 ends up being murdered or executed,

00:56:59.780 like pretty pretty quickly it's like that's good and lana was like yeah but people who were friends

00:57:04.000 of her also were and i was like true yeah anybody who was near her got killed the only person in

00:57:11.700 this entire saga who was not seemingly cursed is gene gordon and yeah scott defru and anna tronson

00:57:20.560 they both they escaped gene gordon lived a long life and did not die but kind of everyone everyone

00:57:26.260 else did which just speaks to the chaos of it all anyway yeah okay so comes this i'm telling

00:57:32.340 you all this because things in scott so esme shows up and so first of all james is like i'm 11 and

00:57:37.460 i'm 13 i'm in charge don't worry about it esme shows up and he's all like oh my god esme and 0.72

00:57:44.660 then he like lavishes him with jewels the assholes are mad jeremy jam they turn on him for i don't 0.92

00:57:51.620 know why so then two months later after jeremy jem is executed by a proto guillotine a thing 0.95

00:57:57.440 happened called the raid of ruthven or as i believe it's pronounced riffin so you remember

00:58:04.240 lord ruthven i do was he the man in the uh the suit of armor he was like actively dying but

00:58:11.480 showed up to kill rizzio while wearing a suit of armor that's the man never forget a man who also

00:58:16.520 loved an outfit but not in the right way yeah he was so this is his son william ruthven who abducted 0.95

00:58:24.500 13 year old james the assholes just you know how their whole lives mary and james were just 0.87

00:58:30.620 trying to not be kidnapped or especially when he was a little baby it's just like they're gonna 0.97

00:58:34.280 kidnap it so anyway they eventually they did they kidnapped him and they're basically being like

00:58:37.540 stop stop having esme your crush is ruining the country i understand he's very tall and very hot

00:58:45.840 but please pull it together yeah we've all had an intervention with a friend that went something

00:58:51.160 like that right yeah i understand he's very tall and very hot but please honey what are you doing

00:58:55.760 yeah so they but they're also just like they felt that esme represented this french connection like

00:59:02.100 catholic even though he wasn't catholic anymore they're just like he represents french catholic

00:59:06.140 like you can't have this influence around you they had also maybe they were mad that jeremy

00:59:10.540 jamb had i don't know these guys they never really have a reason for doing what they did they're just

00:59:14.720 like let's sign this paperwork okay i guess we're gonna kidnap james now like okay and they also

00:59:19.720 gave themselves a new name you remember last time they're called that now we're called the

00:59:22.720 confederate lords now they're called the lords enterprisers that's even worse it's like it's

00:59:29.260 like they make little membership cards like okay no we're club but it's just like the same people 0.99

00:59:33.520 allowed secret scottish asshole lords club so when they kidnapped bj much like his mother he 0.94

00:59:40.820 wept he's a crier nothing wrong with that and then they like for the next 10 months he was moved 0.97

00:59:47.800 around from castle to castle not unlike his mother 10 months did you know any of this happened i did

00:59:52.800 not i did not he's the literal king of scotland right now yeah yeah what are you doing this no

00:59:58.020 this is where it's like people are like oh we don't like mary because she's catholic and a woman

01:00:01.260 it's like well if she was male and protestant you would still mistrust them as evidenced by this 0.99

01:00:08.140 like the asshole lords are just not good at running a country anyway so the recently 0.99

01:00:15.160 deciphered letters show mary was understandably frantic when she heard that her son had been 0.99

01:00:20.260 kidnapped by the guys who had murdered rizzio and darnley and ruined her life notorious for

01:00:27.560 murdering any man who was next to her yeah yeah so she's just like oh my god i can't believe like

01:00:33.180 History is repeating. 0.80

01:00:34.040 So she was running desperately to France for help, like send French forces to rescue him.

01:00:39.800 Eventually, the French king did send some forces, but she wrote she was dissatisfied,

01:00:44.600 feeling that she and her son had both been abandoned by France, which they had been. 0.91

01:00:48.480 Rightly. 0.97

01:00:48.820 Out of all of this, Esme was forced into exile.

01:00:52.580 He returned to France.

01:00:54.780 And he had some children, including a son he called Esme.

01:00:59.780 Esme Jr.

01:01:01.100 Love.

01:01:01.360 And another son called Ludovic, which, bless you, like, honestly, it's like, his name is Esme.

01:01:08.720 I was reading it with someone else for something else, and it was like, and she married Ludovic

01:01:12.960 Stewart.

01:01:13.380 I was like, Ludovic Stewart?

01:01:15.460 Well, there can only be one.

01:01:16.960 Esme's son.

01:01:18.800 And it was.

01:01:20.260 Yay.

01:01:21.140 That was delightful. 0.99

01:01:22.380 It's way better than Bobby Duds having four Roberts running around.

01:01:25.400 We got an Esme and a Ludovic.

01:01:27.460 The thing with Esme is like, and I think I told you this, I'm like, is he an interesting

01:01:31.140 person or is it just his name is Esme so I assume he's interesting and I'm not sure but I do know

01:01:36.980 he was tall and hot and and had some sort of sexual awakening for the young teenage king

01:01:42.400 real call me by your name situation I love it this could be another movie so anyway

01:01:48.280 okay so in the story so he's still we're in the 10 months of his kidnapping right so initially

01:01:58.980 Elizabeth was like, I'll allow it. This is okay. I support the Protestant lords. This is fine.

01:02:05.540 But meanwhile, the people who opposed this included are reliable, has been on the right

01:02:11.080 side of the story all along. Kako the North Jr. is there trying to rescue the king. He's still on

01:02:16.740 Mary's side. He urged the townspeople of Edinburgh, important supporting characters this whole time,

01:02:22.280 to arm themselves and to seize James. But the people of Edinburgh were like, we're over that

01:02:27.320 kind of business. Like we want to be excluded from this narrative. We, the people of Edinburgh,

01:02:32.700 so they did not follow up on that suggestion. Anyway, so Mary had, she was writing so many

01:02:36.400 letters. Like she had so many plans. She's like, okay, well, what if we bring, if we rescue BJ,

01:02:40.360 take him to France? What if we have the French musketeers invade? Maybe the Pope can pay for 0.80

01:02:44.620 this all. Like she's got all these plans. But honestly, all she had to do was wait because

01:02:48.420 the assholes never have a plan for longevity. It just all ran out of steam and eventually he was 0.99

01:02:54.020 just freed and the lord's enterprisers were dismissed from court so i wanted to include

01:03:00.360 that story partially just to show this is what some a lot of the merry letters are about but

01:03:03.940 also just to show that like scotland is still just the same she left but nothing in scotland

01:03:09.060 yeah it's but also just this kind of partially explains some of the trauma that bj lived through

01:03:14.240 that can explain some of his various personality traits some of his yeah god but also i just wanted

01:03:21.940 to talk about Esme because I was really excited about Esme. And now we're just going to take a

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01:05:02.500 Do you love Disney?

01:05:04.860 Do you love Top Ten lists?

01:05:06.340 Then you're going to love our podcast, Disney Countdown.

01:05:09.040 Hi, I'm Megan the Magical Millennial.

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01:05:27.020 There is nothing we don't cover on our show. Right, Jeremy?

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01:05:32.780 Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed,

01:05:35.500 but you definitely need in your life.

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01:05:39.440 check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts.

01:05:42.040 reality tv is messy pop culture is louder than ever and the internet completely unhinged welcome

01:05:49.920 to roxanne and chantelle the podcast where cousins roxanne and chantelle break down reality tv

01:05:55.500 celebrity drama and the stories everyone's texting about we recap the shows spill the headlines and

01:06:02.100 sit down with the stars themselves no filter no boring takes just the tea new episodes every week

01:06:09.060 if it's trending we're talking about it this is roxanne and chantelle let's get into it

01:06:15.700 and we're back anyway so elizabeth was displeased by the fall of the regime of the lord's

01:06:22.460 enterprisers because i think she's just like these dummies will be really easy to control

01:06:26.220 like there's i can i'm happy with them yeah so anyway so then walsingham was sent as ambassador 0.98

01:06:32.080 to scotland he spoke with baby bj i'm sure he looked at that child and was like oh fuck no 0.67

01:06:40.680 absolutely i cannot picture people with more opposing personalities than those the walsingham 0.98

01:06:48.180 and 13 year old james 13 year old super horny james who misses his boyfriend yeah yeah so they

01:06:55.820 spoke but i don't know if it was talking to james or just the people around james they're like

01:06:59.460 adults but walsingham was just like oh mary's influence is still really strong in scotland

01:07:03.920 and it's kind of confusing james like he's not sure who to trust and his ptsd and is traumatized

01:07:11.640 i'm sure anyway but this visit really made walsingham just really cement in his mind like

01:07:16.100 mary has to die he wrote to elizabeth that mary though she cannot live many years did her illness

01:07:22.320 would overthrow james just because yeah so what he saw was just like in scotland like people were

01:07:27.600 more loyal to Mary than to James, basically. Like if she came back, they would be cool with her

01:07:32.140 being queen again, which is not what they want. Oh yeah. And we'll hear some details about this

01:07:37.600 meeting that you can't quite imagine. Apparently Walsingham found James unable to take his

01:07:42.620 complaints seriously. James laughed at Walsingham. He told Walsingham that he was an absolute king

01:07:49.520 who would order his subjects as he would. Anyway, so he's just like, I got this Walsingham. Like,

01:07:55.000 can you imagine what i'm hearing is this is young simba and zazu trying to have a conversation

01:08:01.220 it's just like i'm king i get to do whatever i want and walsingham is like if you go in the 0.99

01:08:06.640 elephant graveyard go fuck yourself i'm going home like that's exactly exactly the vibe oh okay okay 0.99

01:08:13.860 and then some guys hired a woman called kate the witch to just to disrupt walsingham's visit so 1.00

01:08:21.280 they paid her six pounds and a length of plaid cloth for her to stand outside the royal palace

01:08:25.640 and just complain just yell to voice complaints kate the witch an icon god that's i did not know

01:08:35.900 about kate the witch that's incredible i love i love the waltzing that went to scotland and he

01:08:40.140 just sees like 13 year old james outside kate the witch is just being like boo like in princess

01:08:46.240 spry he turns around to his his servants he's like on second thought let's not go to scotland

01:08:51.400 it's a silly place yeah so anyway mary meanwhile still you know going through it she wrote in

01:08:57.600 ciphered letters how she was willing to give up claims of succession to the english throne if she 0.87

01:09:01.360 was permitted to return to scotland so this is at this point she's comp she's offering a compromise

01:09:05.380 that she and bj could rule together like in an association that this is her offer she also

01:09:12.440 writes in these secret unciphered letters about how unpleasant her conditions are in captivity yes

01:09:18.940 living in a swamp house being sick not being allowed outside she had lots of requests to try

01:09:23.380 to improve her situation she also wanted to ensure that her servants and allies were financially 0.56

01:09:27.660 rewarded and this has always been her thing she likes to offer financial rewards to people she

01:09:32.820 she's a good tipper basically she just likes to pay for the weddings of people who give her good

01:09:37.700 service yeah she and this is a way that she gets people to support her she suggests various people 0.94

01:09:43.720 who could maybe be enticed to switch to her side if they were bribed enough she asks for

01:09:49.600 castle now's help in recruiting new spies and courtiers while warning him rightly that some

01:09:55.340 people working for her might be walsingham secret agents yes all the people working for her walsingham

01:10:02.240 secret agents because all of her stuff has to come with elizabeth's approval and so who is

01:10:07.400 Elizabeth's going to send,

01:10:08.700 Walshman's like,

01:10:09.340 okay,

01:10:09.860 14 guys

01:10:11.100 and one of them

01:10:12.220 can do codes

01:10:13.260 and one of them

01:10:14.060 is really good

01:10:14.600 at listening through doors 0.78

01:10:15.620 and let's just send them all

01:10:16.900 and see what we can find out.

01:10:19.080 Well,

01:10:19.240 and at this point,

01:10:19.800 most of her

01:10:20.580 people she knew, 0.67

01:10:22.120 like her servants

01:10:22.580 are mostly strangers

01:10:23.380 and I think at this point

01:10:25.120 they're forbidden

01:10:26.160 from talking to her

01:10:27.340 or something.

01:10:27.860 So I think Barry Seaton

01:10:28.760 is still there.

01:10:29.840 Young Willie

01:10:30.300 may or may not be,

01:10:31.680 but like it's,

01:10:32.880 they don't want her 0.97

01:10:33.560 to have people around her

01:10:34.560 who she trusts

01:10:35.260 and who she knows

01:10:36.140 because

01:10:37.500 Because they know if she has people around who she can trust, then she's going to get secret messages out and she's going to go find an army somewhere because she can.

01:10:44.480 There's this sweet moment in one of the letters where she writes to Castlenow thanking him for sending her a portrait of James, her son.

01:10:50.600 She asks, who was it painted by and when?

01:10:52.720 Because she finds it looks different from other portraits she had already received, which is just heartbreaking.

01:10:56.820 Because she's just like, what does he look like?

01:10:58.380 Is this more accurate than the other one?

01:10:59.700 I thought he looked like this.

01:11:00.820 Like she had a little miniature of him, I think, next to her bed.

01:11:03.480 Like she was really missing her son. 0.99

01:11:06.000 which is so sweet and so sad because she doesn't know how bad he sucks 0.99

01:11:09.480 no he took after darnley he's he's a copy paste darnley it's like what if darnley was born king 0.98

01:11:16.560 of scotland what if darnley but smaller it's the same what if mini darnley so around the same time

01:11:24.760 this was exciting so we learn again from mary's letters so she reveals in a letter that there was

01:11:29.120 a close call so what had happened was castle now was sloppy he carelessly included a ciphered letter

01:11:34.620 in with the regular mail. And Mr. Bess of Hardwick got the regular mail and was supposed to go

01:11:39.440 through it to make sure it was all in the up and up. So, but he was just over it and he didn't

01:11:43.900 inspect it. So he could, he didn't notice the ciphered letter was there, but Mary was just

01:11:47.640 like, watch your shit castle now, Jesus Christ. Which is like an exciting, in the spy movie of 0.99

01:11:52.800 this would be a scene of like the letter almost being seen, but then he's just like, meh, I don't

01:11:56.800 care. In September, 1582, erotic fan fiction author George Buchanan died. And Mary wrote in

01:12:03.300 a letter like please send me a copy of that erotic fan fiction basically she's like so no one else

01:12:09.200 can read it not just because for funsies but she's like myself i'm here send it to me like i don't

01:12:14.880 want anyone else to see it yeah okay so now it's 1583 bear in mind mary has been scheming non-stop

01:12:20.320 via letters this whole time so at this point and this is where okay so ryan philippe is great at

01:12:27.200 spy deciphering stuff comma and i think she would send she's like here's the new cipher code

01:12:34.320 and she would send that sometimes out so it could also be at times perhaps

01:12:38.360 wasn't him intercepted that so it's not necessarily cracking a code always like some of it could be

01:12:44.360 oh we got the table from somebody right because if you're sending this extremely complicated code

01:12:49.140 for the first time like how are they gonna yeah you need to explain what the code is

01:12:54.960 Yeah.

01:12:55.820 But I do think she did, like, variations on it as she went.

01:12:58.400 So, like, you wouldn't just give the code and then, oh, now I can read everything.

01:13:01.280 No problem.

01:13:01.900 Like, it was, there's still work going on there.

01:13:04.160 But, yeah.

01:13:05.300 So, there was this letter.

01:13:06.340 She wanted to deliver a cipher table to a new ally whose name was Archibald Douglas.

01:13:11.500 A Douglas.

01:13:12.180 A Douglas. 0.75

01:13:12.920 So, Archibald, I was confused for a minute because Archibald Douglas was the name of Margaret Tudor's shitty husband, Darnley's ancestor.

01:13:20.020 but this is a different person called archibald douglas who on wikipedia calls like a notorious

01:13:24.840 intriguer so he liked the scheme what we're going to call him is a douglas a douglas because if you

01:13:33.200 write his initials that's just you would that's how he would sign letters is a douglas so she's

01:13:38.440 got this new ally a douglas but she so she needed to tell him about here's what the the table is

01:13:44.900 for the cipher this is what's so interesting about these letters like she's like the like

01:13:48.280 how things worked so she explained she's like we need to get this cipher table to him but we can't

01:13:52.540 let him know that you castle know are the person getting my cipher letters so i'm going to send

01:13:58.380 this to you but i have some servants also going to london so basically that she wanted to have

01:14:03.260 a douglas think that these women were the people who had brought the cipher table like they wanted

01:14:07.520 she wanted this to be delivered to him secretly i guess in his room just after the women left so he

01:14:11.760 would think the women had brought it but they were gone so he couldn't ask them if they had brought

01:14:15.740 it so it's like even the couriers couldn't know what the channel was and this is just like to

01:14:20.640 protect at all levels and this is the level of scheming that's like she's so on the ball she's

01:14:27.520 so thinking about it she's three steps ahead of everybody all the time like just the way that she

01:14:32.720 was like okay i want you to deliver this letter to him but wait until these other people are there

01:14:37.400 so he thinks they brought it but wait until those other people have left so he can't ask them it's

01:14:42.060 just like oh my god and what she's delivering is the code to a secret code that's gonna send her

01:14:47.140 letters in because he can't just this is also she can send him a note it's so elaborate it's so

01:14:53.220 elaborate and then when they get new couriers like and this is like in the ciphered letter

01:14:56.500 she's explaining here's what i want you to do like there's this new courier and if you could

01:14:59.600 like first you just get them to send like a blank piece of paper or something like just to see if

01:15:04.000 they're trusted like there's so much of like it's not just like hey great you're my new courier let's

01:15:07.460 do it like there's so many tests and making sure people are okay so according to a contemporary

01:15:11.720 resource a douglas was playing the double part of betraying mary to walsingham and pretending to

01:15:16.860 betray walsingham to mary so like a douglas like everybody playing both sides anyway so 1583 this

01:15:24.060 is the year walsingham was finally able to infiltrate the mary castle no communication

01:15:28.820 channel by recruiting a spy at the french embassy so it's also interesting about these newly ciphered

01:15:34.940 letters is that we knew that at this point 1580 whatever 1583 three we knew that the secret

01:15:43.800 channel was in place but these letters prove the secret channel had been in place since 1578 which

01:15:48.040 was not previously known so this was working without walsingham knowing about it for several

01:15:52.580 years yeah yeah yeah which shows how good she is anyway so this brings us to francis throckmorton

01:16:00.220 and the Throckmorton plot.

01:16:03.920 So last, we did have a Throckmorton earlier.

01:16:06.680 We had Throcko, who was the one who was smuggling letters

01:16:09.020 to Marion Lockleaven in the scabbard of his sword or whatever.

01:16:13.340 And I said to you tellingly, isn't that guy suspicious?

01:16:17.080 And what I meant was this guy is suspicious,

01:16:19.900 the other Throckmorton.

01:16:21.780 Yes.

01:16:22.260 So this is Francis Throckmorton.

01:16:25.360 So he is related to Throcko from before.

01:16:30.120 he's like his nephew or something not his son but same family anyway so this Thrako 2.0 is a young

01:16:37.800 man and this is where we're getting it's like the years are passing so Mary's supporters are now 0.79

01:16:41.120 kind of like dumbass 20 year olds is kind of who her main supporters are at this point yes 0.84

01:16:47.060 and that goes as well as you think it yeah yeah so Thrako is this young man Thrako 2.0 he was 0.97

01:16:57.460 traveling in Paris and while he was there, he met some Catholic Mary supporters and he was like,

01:17:01.400 you know what? Yeah, that all makes sense. So he's like, I'm going to go back to England and

01:17:05.700 I'm going to be a secret spy for Mary because great. So he started working as a courier for 0.64

01:17:10.580 her super secret letters through the French embassy. The deciphered letters show her mentioning

01:17:15.380 him as a trusted courier, but does not contain any details about any plot, but just he's a guy

01:17:21.820 that she knew about. So I mentioned that to say like, he's got a plot, but Mary didn't know about

01:17:27.060 the plot he's just it's a this is like a paragraph okay so right away thrako 2.0 starts being a

01:17:35.800 courier the mole at the french embassy told walsingham and he was and then thrako was taken

01:17:40.220 into custody basically right away he was actually caught in the act of encoding a letter to mary

01:17:45.380 queen of scots when he was arrested like which like does he have one letter normally that just

01:17:50.980 says this is a letter from mary queen of scots and then a half completed code on the table next

01:17:55.460 to him and then someone opens the door and is like what are you doing so after his arrest mary

01:18:03.420 did write in a cipher letter she was mad at how he was being treated badly he was suffering upon

01:18:08.400 his arrest because he was a trusted courier so he's taken to the tower of london and another

01:18:14.920 conspirator was also arrested in question but released after making a deal with walsingham

01:18:19.700 Like, Walsingham was just turning everybody.

01:18:22.100 So what the Throckmorton plot was, so Throcko had sent a casket.

01:18:27.040 I don't know why it's always called a casket in this story, like a parcel.

01:18:31.700 It's like not a little tiny coffin, but that's what I picture.

01:18:36.980 He had sent some documents to the Spanish ambassador.

01:18:40.760 And basically, he was a minor player.

01:18:45.300 He had been manipulated into doing this.

01:18:46.900 And the significance of him was to confirm the extent of the Spanish involvement in seeking to overthrow Elizabeth. 0.96

01:18:52.980 So he didn't really have, this is called the Throckmorton plot, but it's just kind of like Throckmorton is a dumbass, is what happened. 0.92

01:19:01.900 Yes, the Throckmorton got caught plot. 0.94

01:19:04.300 Throckmorton is, yeah.

01:19:07.480 But he does have the most memorable name of anyone involved in this plot, so I understand why they did that.

01:19:12.120 I understand, yeah, no, Throckmorton is a great name. 1.00

01:19:13.820 But still, Mary and her allies, like, they're on their shit. 0.99

01:19:18.060 So even after Thrako 2.0 was arrested, another guy was able to carry Mary's confidential letters for, like, another year after this, like, without being caught. 0.99

01:19:27.300 Like, so she's still on it.

01:19:29.180 She did not stop for a second.

01:19:30.620 She's like, okay, I'll find another guy.

01:19:32.420 Don't worry. 0.94

01:19:32.900 Got a new career?

01:19:33.640 We're good. 0.98

01:19:34.540 So Thrako 2.0 confessed after being tortured, was put on trial, and was executed. 0.78

01:19:38.300 but him being arrested for plotting quote unquote this is where things really start to be like are 0.98

01:19:45.380 people plotting or is walsingham just making them look like they're plotting so that he can get shit

01:19:51.020 done and it's kind of both i think he's erring on the side of let's assume they're plotting

01:19:56.440 i don't i don't know that it's that he's planting information necessarily but i think he's just like 0.77

01:20:00.980 this person there's a 33 chance that this person is guilty so i'm going to have them executed just

01:20:06.020 to make sure yeah well and i think it's to his benefit because the more people are plotting the

01:20:11.040 more they can put more strict rules around mary making her life more uncomfortable which could

01:20:17.080 make her more desperate which because ultimately cecil and walsingham want to entrap her in prison 1.00

01:20:22.820 and they need to get her psychologically to a place where she'll mess she'll mess up that's

01:20:28.380 what they're doing it's a long game anyway so this will happen castle know like they found out that

01:20:33.660 he was getting these letters. So he was confronted and he promised Welsingham he would show him all

01:20:37.860 the letters to and from Mary. But just before making this promise, he had sent Mary a packet

01:20:43.000 containing a bunch of letters that had been piling up recently. So he's like, I won't,

01:20:47.080 I'll let you see all the letters except for these 50 that I just sent her.

01:20:50.820 All the ones that I will send starting today.

01:20:54.000 Yeah. And then he was sent back to France, Castlenau. So most of the letters that were

01:20:59.080 found were from this castle now era from 1578 to 1584, basically. And then he was replaced by a

01:21:06.540 new French ambassador, but Mary does not seem to have been sending him secret letters. She had

01:21:10.620 some other new plans. Yeah. So at this point, Walsingham and Cecil made up another one of these 0.78

01:21:16.120 like wild rules. So it's called the bond of association. So that just says everyone who

01:21:22.740 signs this thing, it's their version of the like Ainsley's tavern bond. They're like, okay,

01:21:27.540 let's do some paperwork. They're signing the paper. Scotland style. So just everyone who

01:21:33.180 signs this letter agrees to execute anyone who tries to usurp the throne or assassinate Queen

01:21:39.800 Elizabeth. Mary herself even signed it. She was like, sounds good to me. I don't know. It's just 0.84

01:21:45.140 all furthering, just entrapping her basically. So time continues on. It's February, 1585.

01:21:53.240 at what point does your book start 1585 okay okay because like tony babbs is going to be on

01:22:02.040 the scene shortly and that's kind of where your book is right so i'm gonna use on 15 february 1585

01:22:08.500 best and mr best are officially now estranged like they elizabeth tries to be stuck in like

01:22:14.840 dating in prison for 12 years right like this is not helping anybody no so i think elizabeth tries

01:22:20.680 to get them to come together. And they're just like, no, no, no. Like this, this marriage is

01:22:27.920 ended forever. Thank you. So just like emotionally, everyone's worn out. And then

01:22:33.680 another dumbass is caught doing another badly thought out scheme. This time it's a guy called 1.00

01:22:37.300 William Perry. So he had been working for Cecil to spy on the Catholics, but then he switched over

01:22:43.520 being among the Catholics. He decided to switch to the Catholic side, which is like in the first 0.87

01:22:47.960 fast and furious movie where the person is just like one over by the other side and switches

01:22:52.580 teams so he became a double agent like everybody he sought approval for an assassination scheme

01:22:58.940 so he was in france and italy just i don't know approval just being hi do you approve of me

01:23:04.140 right it's wild like hi if i assassinate someone will we all be cool with that

01:23:09.620 like bro why you ask me permission this is ridiculous so what's crazy is like the when

01:23:16.280 I was researching this. I'm like, I knew about the Rodolfi plot and I knew about the Babington

01:23:20.800 plot, which we're going to get to. But a couple of people mentioned the Throckmorton plot and

01:23:24.340 the Perry plot. And I was like, what are those? And I had to dig around a bit to find them because

01:23:27.340 it's like, oh, they're not plots. It's just dumbasses. It's just two dumbasses. There's 1.00

01:23:31.640 not really much to it. So he returned to England. This is wild. So part of why he was doing this

01:23:37.120 was because he had a lot of debts. And I think he realized that if he became a double agent,

01:23:40.780 he could make more money, I guess, being paid by both sides.

01:23:43.760 that seems high risk for for that so he came to england and he came clean and he was like hey so

01:23:50.320 i was going around being a double agent trying to assassinate you elizabeth and she was like

01:23:55.000 and he's like but it's just because i'm in debt and she's like great here's a pension and a seat

01:23:58.840 in parliament for you william perry wild move but he still had lots of debts and so he wanted to

01:24:06.720 make a false plot so he could look like a hero like a false flag operation literally

01:24:11.360 so he approached

01:24:13.500 some other guy

01:24:14.260 and suggested to him

01:24:15.180 that they should 0.99

01:24:15.720 ride up and shoot 1.00

01:24:16.580 the queen in her coach 1.00

01:24:17.720 or kill her during 1.00

01:24:18.400 a private audience 1.00

01:24:19.260 because he wanted

01:24:20.740 to make it

01:24:22.100 he wanted to be able

01:24:22.320 to stop it

01:24:23.000 so it could look like

01:24:23.800 oh look I saved you

01:24:24.840 from this thing

01:24:25.400 that I

01:24:25.720 yeah please give me money

01:24:26.700 to pay off my debt

01:24:27.520 some more

01:24:27.900 the other guy

01:24:28.660 unsurprisingly

01:24:29.200 told on him

01:24:30.080 Perry was expelled

01:24:31.200 from parliament

01:24:31.740 taken to the

01:24:32.720 Tower of London

01:24:33.440 and then was executed 1.00

01:24:34.640 for just being an idiot 1.00

01:24:36.280 what a dumbass 1.00

01:24:38.240 what are you doing 1.00

01:24:39.220 it's just

01:24:40.300 yeah

01:24:40.600 so uh the connection to mary queen of scots with this is that castlenow was alleged to have carried

01:24:48.460 letters to perry so this led to the suspicion that mary queen of scots was involved in any of

01:24:53.380 this stuff which is like no this guy was just freelance wildcard dummy like it's just a wacky

01:25:00.120 little man yeah she she would have took some better no so anyway so it's kind of like how

01:25:05.180 it's like mary had done some banking with rodolphi it's like i don't know anyway so it's

01:25:10.260 like does that make her but this isn't the like definite proof that cecil needs right so at around

01:25:15.320 this time after 14 years mr and mrs best were relieved of their duties and were no longer

01:25:20.160 having to babysit mary queen of scots anymore good news for them but bad news for mary because 0.99

01:25:26.000 her new babysitter was a puritan asshole named amias pollett what a name who sucks so he was 0.99

01:25:35.560 a puritan he's kind of like like it's a bit john knox vibes he's very anti-catholic very anti-woman 1.00

01:25:42.120 he had previously served as one of elizabeth's privy counselors he had zero tolerance for mary's

01:25:47.300 womanly emotions he had no tolerance for her catholic faith this is kind of why he had been

01:25:52.900 chosen because again this kind of like cecil and walsingham were just like let's psychologically

01:25:56.800 break this woman like how can we do this easiest way is to go get her own john knox and send him

01:26:03.460 we know that that was distressing to her before so he like where's like leticia's dad and then

01:26:11.220 mr best like they had sort of been like okay mary you can like they followed the rules but like they

01:26:15.860 let her get away with some stuff but amias paulet was just like he's i picture the guy i don't know

01:26:21.980 the name of the actor but he was in game of thrones and he was like the gross dad of the

01:26:26.200 women and he like had babies with all his daughters and in the harry potter movies he

01:26:30.220 played like the janitor do you know that guy yeah yeah yeah oh my gosh anyway i picture that guy

01:26:36.000 just like i'm sure that guy as a person i don't know anything about him as a person but the roles

01:26:41.000 he plays are all just this like greasy unpleasant grosso and that's just who i imagine david bradley

01:26:47.940 was extremely good at what he does which is unsettling on screen yeah yeah so just put him

01:26:53.720 in some like puritan clothes and that's who this is so mary was forbidden to give um money to the

01:26:59.540 poor. She was forbidden to tip her household staff. And you know, giving gifts was her love 0.99

01:27:04.520 language, but also the way she got people to be on her side, which is why it was forbidden,

01:27:08.340 but this like upset her. And then they also isolated her of communication from the outside

01:27:13.980 world. She was not allowed to give or receive any letters to or from anyone because they wanted her

01:27:19.740 to become desperate for information. They wanted her to become foolish. They wanted her to become 0.99

01:27:24.280 reckless so they could lure her into an incriminating plot and then have official

01:27:28.240 proof so they could execute her and so cecil knew mary was vulnerable and stressed so paulette's 0.66

01:27:35.060 job was to make sure that she was stressed constantly yeah yeah so mary by now like you

01:27:42.200 know the years are passing like there's so many points that started i was like oh my god she's

01:27:45.520 only 24 jesus christ but now like time is passing she's now 41 she's been in prison since she was

01:27:51.040 25 her physical health continues to decline paulette wrote the queen has kept her bed

01:27:57.420 six to seven days being very much grieved with ache in her limbs so as she is not able to move

01:28:02.240 in her bed without great help and when she is moved in doors great pain so she is her health 0.96

01:28:08.540 is suffering mentally she's suffering he didn't care he sucked so bad i think he told her it's 0.95

01:28:15.420 like if you weren't catholic you wouldn't be sick now basically oh yeah i told her that the 0.99

01:28:21.820 passionate and discontented mind did more to increase her sickness than the coldness of this 1.00

01:28:25.960 house or any other thing whatsoever hey fuck you man because he is i think she's back in the swamp 1.00

01:28:32.260 house but i'm not sure i think it's still sheffield right no you're right yeah she's in 0.99

01:28:36.620 sheffield so she's not in the swamp house she's not in temporary because sheffield that's where

01:28:39.560 your book the merry parts take place about half of it yeah because she's still bouncing around

01:28:45.860 castles at this point so we still have a couple more surprise new house but yeah so also yeah at

01:28:54.000 this point, Mary Seaton left her service. Like she was allowed to leave. She went to retire to 1.00

01:28:59.040 a French convent. So even who's doing her wigs, I don't even know. Mentally and physically fragile.

01:29:05.920 And so by now her son BJ is now 20 years old. Which is insane that she hasn't seen him in 20

01:29:13.120 years. And he is now a full grown adult. Yeah. Yeah. It's just so crazy. It's wild. Yeah. So

01:29:21.560 there had been the sort of idea that maybe the two

01:29:23.600 of them could rule jointly but he had

01:29:25.600 been raised to hate her

01:29:27.280 so of course he didn't want to do that he chose

01:29:29.660 instead to ally with Elizabeth and this

01:29:31.700 broke Mary's heart because

01:29:33.140 she was kind of at this point when she knew Elizabeth

01:29:35.540 wasn't going to help her like the 1.00

01:29:36.920 tea dog like that's all years 0.99

01:29:39.040 in the past but she was kind of being like

01:29:41.500 okay I'm just going to wait until my son is an adult and then

01:29:43.600 he will rescue me. He's the

01:29:45.620 last hope that she has really

01:29:47.540 like someone's going to come and help it'll be

01:29:49.520 James. It was

01:29:50.920 no and also elizabeth like james had been raised to hate mary and to think she she had killed 0.88

01:29:57.200 darnley and then she was a whore and etc but also elizabeth had bought his loyalty with money

01:30:02.160 and also the vague promise that he would be her heir so he sacrificed mary to improve his chances 0.93

01:30:08.060 of becoming king of england next mary wrote to elizabeth i am so grievously offended at my heart

01:30:14.040 at the impiety and ingratitude that my child has been constrained to commit against me

01:30:19.640 And her household staff had decreased because Amias Pollitt was not going to pay Mr. Best

01:30:25.480 levels of money to keep her living. I'm guessing there's no more 16 course meals.

01:30:30.980 So she's just at like the betrayal she felt at what James did. Like she was,

01:30:36.780 it was quite a period of time where she's just with Amias Pollitt, not able to do anything.

01:30:40.380 And then James betrays her. So she's at like emotionally, physically a really low point,

01:30:45.080 which is where Cecil and Walsingham wanted her, because that would make her desperate and willing 0.99

01:30:49.060 to go along with a plot that previously she might have thought was pretty stupid. Which brings us to 0.99

01:30:54.600 Tony Babs, Anthony Babington. So to recap from last time, so at age 10, he'd become a ward to

01:31:02.940 Mr. Best and he'd been a page in that household. So he met Mary. Then he went, or do you want to,

01:31:07.360 what do you know about him? Tell us, Tony Babs is in your book. What do you know about him?

01:31:10.240 I know him mostly in the context of the plot, but he is a nobleman of like medium quality. He's not like particularly powerful. He was, yeah, came through as a page in the house and then he's kind of making his way in the world. He's not destitute, but he's not like a rich and powerful person who is really helpful to have on your side necessarily.

01:31:32.180 He's also played in the movie Elizabeth the Golden Age by Eddie Redmayne. So that's who I picture.

01:31:39.140 You can picture Eddie Redmayne.

01:31:40.920 That's also the vibes there are pretty correct.

01:31:43.380 If you picture 20 years ago, Eddie Redmayne,

01:31:46.100 like just really baby twink Eddie Redmayne

01:31:49.540 is who he is to me.

01:31:53.640 Which is interesting because when I was reading

01:31:55.540 Stang to Read with the Plots,

01:31:56.520 I was like, I remember in Elizabeth, the Golden Age,

01:32:00.000 Eddie Redmayne is in that movie

01:32:01.320 playing someone who points a gun at Elizabeth.

01:32:04.620 And I was like, oh, is that William Perry?

01:32:06.540 Was that, who is that?

01:32:07.300 and I'm like, oh, that's Anthony

01:32:09.220 Babington. They took a real shortcut

01:32:11.220 there in terms of what the Babington plot was.

01:32:12.900 I don't think Anthony Babington ever came at Elizabeth

01:32:15.080 with a gun. It doesn't seem...

01:32:17.120 But yeah. Baby Eddie Redmayne.

01:32:19.120 So Tony Babs. So he

01:32:21.060 after kind of spending some time

01:32:23.180 in the household of Bess and Mr. Bess, he went to France

01:32:25.460 and then started working. It seems like

01:32:27.120 when anyone goes to France, they start becoming a

01:32:29.180 double agent working for Mary. France

01:32:31.260 as a country, very persuasive.

01:32:33.540 Honestly, that is sort of

01:32:34.920 what happened. There were lots of

01:32:37.300 like convents and seminaries and stuff set up in like North France which was like the training

01:32:42.640 ground for people who wanted to get their Catholic faith together and then come over and then start 0.64

01:32:47.520 like plotting against Elizabeth it really was like here's where we launch all of our spies from

01:32:51.500 and so Walsingham knew that and he had agents in those little French towns which were like all of 0.88

01:32:57.020 these suspicious places he's like I need y'all to pretend to be Catholics yeah pretend to be double

01:33:02.540 agents so what you're really doing is being a triple agent and just let me know who I shouldn't 0.61

01:33:06.900 Oh my gosh. Well, also the Eddie Redmayne of it all and what you just described and just his kind

01:33:12.040 of like young idealism reminds me of Eddie Redmayne in the Les Miserables movie and kind of those

01:33:17.040 guys where they're just kind of like, we're full of idealism and we're also young and dumb and

01:33:22.080 don't actually understand what we're up against, but we have idealism. We have lots of ideas and

01:33:27.200 no brains. And I'm like, okay, Eddie Redmayne, what are we doing? Like you're going up against

01:33:32.300 walsingham and you're like but i have heart so mary scott's has been imprisoned like to emphasize

01:33:39.000 for like 18 years almost more time in prison than out of prison in her life this is yeah because

01:33:46.360 yeah because she was in scotland for five years then she went to france until she was 18 then she

01:33:52.480 ruled scotland for like six seven years and now she's been in prison for 18 years like this is

01:33:56.080 like and she was in lock 11 for a year too right yeah yeah so this is like if you add up prison

01:34:01.040 time basically half life yeah yeah so but the amount of time that has passed is so a new

01:34:09.260 generation of catholics forgot about how like if you will recall back when she was ruling scotland

01:34:15.200 her whole deal was she's like it's cool to be catholic it's cool to be protestant let's just 0.52

01:34:20.060 get along no big deal which is actually very progressive of her and if she had jumped in

01:34:25.520 there and been more like oh i'm catholic blah like things might have gone differently i don't know

01:34:29.300 And also I have to say, that's what she was like in Reign.

01:34:31.980 In Reign, she was just like, let's be cool Catholics and Protestants.

01:34:35.120 It didn't work out. 0.81

01:34:35.960 But I'm like, in terms of accuracy, like, I'm like, oh, that was what she was like. 0.98

01:34:40.140 Anyway, so even when she had been the Catholic Queen of Scotland, she was like, Protestants

01:34:43.920 are cool too.

01:34:45.000 So much time had passed and now Catholics were like, she is such a pure Catholic. 0.73

01:34:48.900 And it's like, that's not kind of like she is, but they sort of. 0.74

01:34:52.780 She's a very personally devout Catholic and they're using that to be like, and also she

01:34:56.780 will be our Mary the First.

01:34:58.960 and like really spread what we need and put us back in power they were seeing her sort of like

01:35:04.360 a still alive catholic martyr slash saint which is kind of not who she was but if that would help

01:35:12.900 her sure so tony babbs was like okay and remember the whole thing where the pope was like anyone who

01:35:18.880 kills elizabeth gets a thumbs up from me the pope yeah so tony babbs is like great like i'm gonna do

01:35:25.060 this thing the pope wants like i've been trained in these like lame is roomfuls of idealistic kids 0.99

01:35:31.340 by this point english english catholics were not doing great so oh my god these fucking laws so 0.97

01:35:38.160 cecil walsingham i'm saying them and not elizabeth because they're the ones making these laws i think 0.97

01:35:44.200 they had made a new she signed off on it but this is like them i don't think she was like a zealous

01:35:50.520 protestant but i do think she was like protestantism is correct because that's me head of

01:35:56.120 my church and so anybody who's a catholic is defying my authority in that way so i think she

01:36:02.580 did see it kind of as a treasonous thing if you're catholic because then you're not respecting me in

01:36:08.500 this particular authority that i have as head of the church of england one thing like when there 0.70

01:36:12.960 was the northern rebellion she like executed all those catholics like she's is true she is she is

01:36:18.480 as protestant as mary is catholic she's it's i don't know so when it talks about like making

01:36:22.920 these laws like i don't know if elizabeth is thinking up these laws or if cecil walsingham

01:36:26.860 suggested to her and she's like great love it i do think whatever the case she is fully on board

01:36:31.900 she's fully on board definitely so the latest law that the three of them have come up with

01:36:37.020 is that if anyone was found to have encouraged someone else to convert to catholicism that first

01:36:44.280 person would be charged with treason and executed so another sort of thought crime situation anyway

01:36:50.360 the pope was like oh really and so he sent a group of undercover jesuits which i love the phrase

01:36:56.260 undercover jesuits just basically missionaries so these are the guys the jesuits later would

01:37:03.140 be involved with ferdinando stanley i believe he was assassinated by jesuits possibly yeah

01:37:10.260 Anyway, so under...

01:37:11.140 There are questions involved. 1.00

01:37:13.420 Undercover Jesuits are infiltrating England, 0.71

01:37:16.340 where it's now apparently treasonous to be a missionary, to be Catholic.

01:37:22.580 So then Cecil and Walsingham and Elizabeth found out about the undercover Jesuits.

01:37:26.920 And I feel like that's a t-shirt, but that's...

01:37:29.360 I shouldn't.

01:37:29.980 No. 1.00

01:37:30.440 But it would be a good band name, undercover Jesuits. 0.85

01:37:33.080 It sure would be.

01:37:33.740 Anyway, so they passed a new law saying any Jesuits found in England would be condemned to death. 0.84

01:37:38.220 so it's just like they keep doing a thing and it's like they found a loophole and then they're

01:37:42.080 like well here's a law that's specific to that and then they anyway it's it is they're trying

01:37:46.000 to legislate their way out of revolution and it's not yeah it's not gonna that's sustainable

01:37:50.800 but okay but like things are just heating up like things are not getting better vis-a-vis

01:37:55.940 catholics versus protestants and mary is just this icon seen as this icon not as a person

01:38:00.800 she represented this threat so um the catholics wanted to free her so she could take over

01:38:06.060 but elizabeth cecil and walsingham knew like as long as she was alive and there that was a threat

01:38:11.560 and they had to get rid of her somehow so we still had some leftover dummies from the throco plot

01:38:17.580 the perry plot just like lurking around just freelance 20 year old men who are just like

01:38:22.400 we're a bunch of little eddie redmanes we want to do something so cecil and walsingham got some

01:38:28.320 of them to sign on as double agents and one of these guys was a guy called gilbert gifford

01:38:33.600 which i always write as gilbert gottfried i read it the same way every time i'm like my god this man

01:38:42.740 so gilbert gottfried was one of these dummies his job was to lure tony babs into a scheme

01:38:50.520 that walsingham and cecil would secretly oversee to entrap mary in treason and so gilbert gottfried 0.87

01:38:57.640 was given a job working for Mary's

01:38:59.860 household. So he's the

01:39:01.760 go-between between Tony Babs and Mary.

01:39:04.340 So Mary would give the letters to Gilbert

01:39:05.780 Gottfried. Gilbert Gottfried would give the letters to Tony

01:39:07.780 Babs. Allegedly. In between, he would

01:39:09.820 read them and pass them all to Lawson. And be like, okay,

01:39:11.800 here's what's going on. No, first they pass them to

01:39:13.860 Ryan Phillippe. Right.

01:39:15.560 To go with them.

01:39:18.280 Potentially, rewrite.

01:39:19.880 There's several people in between. But as far as

01:39:21.740 Mary knew, Gilbert Gottfried was just sending

01:39:23.760 letters directly to Tony Babs.

01:39:25.880 Right. So, but

01:39:27.540 Okay, so she hadn't received any letters in over a year because of the janitor from Harry Potter.

01:39:32.760 The law specifically against Mary getting letters, basically.

01:39:35.880 Yeah, yeah.

01:39:36.840 So when Gilbert Gottfried showed up and he was like, hey, I'm your new household servant and I'm able to smuggle letters in and out between you and your supporters.

01:39:45.020 She's like, yes, please.

01:39:46.660 Because she had also been psychologically broken down and she was just trusting anyone at this point because what else?

01:39:52.780 18 years ago, Mary would have had lots more follow-up questions.

01:39:55.760 But after after 18 years of sitting, like being unable to speak to anybody, he's like, OK, great, let's do it.

01:40:02.200 OK, Alison, do you want to describe or how much do you know about Gilbert Gottfried's strategy to smuggle letters inside of casks of beer?

01:40:11.460 Yes. The classic wine barrel situation, which like I've always had such a hard time picturing this in my brain.

01:40:17.560 like don't the letters get wet sneaking them into like the casings of wine barrels and sending them

01:40:23.560 out to badminton's house i believe right yeah i in again i i said at the beginning of my references

01:40:31.020 but like a tip for the hangman was one of my sources for this episode and i think you said

01:40:35.360 in the back in your author's note you're like i'm really sad i couldn't involve the wine barrels

01:40:39.880 smuggling and i was like oh alice knows about the wine barrel smuggling i'll have to ask her about

01:40:43.960 that but um yeah i was looking at diagrams of um casks of barrels because they're like they put it

01:40:50.460 in this thing and i'm like the what they so it's like somehow so like you've got a barrel and it

01:40:55.560 has like a cork sort of thing that goes in it like you fill the barrel through this hole in the

01:40:59.240 barrel then you put like a cork in it and somehow they were wrapping the letters around where that

01:41:04.460 cork part goes like where that hole is it seems like that would still get it wet with wine though

01:41:09.780 right yeah like right i'm imagining there's there's an elaborate packing situation unless

01:41:14.800 there's something like a hard time visualizing if the cork is hollow and you put the letter in

01:41:20.020 i don't know then you have to make sure the barrel never tilts like in any direction like

01:41:24.380 this side up for sure here's how i copied it down how somebody described it so the letters were

01:41:30.640 wrapped around the bung b-u-n-g which is the cork that fills up the bung hole which is where the

01:41:37.760 beer or wine is poured into like what anyway so it's just like how is this happening but the thing

01:41:43.740 is that the brewer was also working for walsingham and was in on this so because every single person

01:41:49.220 in england was working for walsingham at this time it's like everybody yeah but the reason why

01:41:54.740 like they're getting wine and beer deliveries is because that is what people drank then there was

01:41:59.680 actually a nice thing where the water was poison yeah if you don't want to die of dysentery here's

01:42:03.880 what you do there was back when she's writing letters to castle now there's one where she was

01:42:07.620 just like please send me some good wine the wine here is terrible and he did so i've read that

01:42:12.800 mary would actually wash her face in wine because the water was so gross which is wild yeah i read

01:42:20.160 that and i forgot to put them in my notes like but this is part of the like the cost to mr bess

01:42:24.520 where it's like yeah did she wash her face 16 times a day with white wine maybe and you have

01:42:30.280 to like have enough for that because she's a queen see them so i'm sorry it seems so sticky

01:42:34.540 it does it does i don't know but you know what elizabeth has been like smearing lead on her face

01:42:41.860 so people just had different standards for what is comfortable or not on skin so she's still got

01:42:46.680 her french secretary did i mention he's french claude no

01:42:49.760 Monsieur de Lumière, yes.

01:42:56.460 Jerry Orbach as Lumière.

01:42:58.880 So she has him as her secretary and then also Gilbert Curl or maybe Curly.

01:43:04.900 Not Gilbert Gottfried and not Gilbert, the son of Mr. Bess.

01:43:08.740 Suddenly there's multiple Gilberts.

01:43:10.860 What is happening?

01:43:11.800 I don't know. 1.00

01:43:12.020 It's a new generation. 1.00

01:43:12.840 18 years have passed.

01:43:14.440 So she works with her secretaries on this new set of, she's like, oh my God, like we're

01:43:18.360 writing letters again.

01:43:19.260 you guys let's make some new ciphers and this is the cipher table that is you can see on display

01:43:23.820 in a museum i'm not sure which one but i'm sure you looked at this a lot when you're writing your

01:43:29.720 book yes it is super complicated but at the same time i feel like if you handed me the table i

01:43:36.720 could figure it out but if you just handed me a letter done in this cipher i would stare at it

01:43:41.560 for a thousand years it's like somewhere between mathematical symbols and egyptian hieroglyphics

01:43:46.940 like it's really interesting to look at it it's at this point though too i will say

01:43:52.380 there was i think i was listening to a podcast where the cryptographer guys they were talking

01:44:00.640 about or somebody was talking about this situation and they were saying like she was so mary was so

01:44:05.080 trusting in the ciphers that no one would ever uncipher it like she was very especially at this

01:44:10.340 point where she's just like not doing great emotionally mentally like she just assumed

01:44:15.800 no one would ever understand these ciphers but she had been like i don't know cipher technology

01:44:22.140 so it's almost like by this point the cipher was like old-fashioned like it was almost like

01:44:27.340 ryan philippe like it was not even a challenge for him to do this anymore

01:44:31.160 because waltzing him had really pushed spy shit into a new level that mary like 10 years ago five 0.69

01:44:39.260 years ago this would have been okay cipher but now it's just like oh no this is and she hasn't 0.94

01:44:43.780 had any contact with the outside world for 18 years she doesn't know what the cool kids are

01:44:48.020 doing now he's like this is the most sophisticated cipher that i know so i'm gonna use it yeah

01:44:53.000 exactly so yeah so tony babbs who is just being used right like tony babbs like thinks he's like

01:45:01.620 absolute dummy he thinks he's like this hero but really like cecilin walsingham hired gilbert

01:45:08.660 gottfried who is doing this tony babbs doesn't realize he's like this is a setup from the 0.92

01:45:13.060 beginning. So via beer barrels, somehow, he sent all the piled up correspondence that had been

01:45:18.520 waiting for her at the embassy for a year. Like, my man, spread it out. Be a little bit strategic.

01:45:25.240 What are you doing? So he sent her all the, like, she's just excited to get letters. So she's just

01:45:30.700 like, she didn't know. And then she wrote back, like Gilbert Gottfried was taking all her letters

01:45:35.620 straight to Ryan Phillippe, who would decode them, send them to Walsingham, who sent them to Cecil,

01:45:40.200 who would copy them then they'd send them back to the embassy and send them on to who mary had

01:45:44.320 wanted to send it to so the letters still got to where they were intended to go but they were just

01:45:48.120 intercepted by like three people in between who were reading them out to like the entire

01:45:52.340 council yeah here's all the information that everyone needs to know yeah and so the thing

01:45:57.420 with ryan philippe is he was we talked about before but he's an expert forger he could rewrite

01:46:01.540 the letters so sometimes he would just like unfold refold them but sometimes he could redo the letter

01:46:07.500 exactly and do all the same so he just recreate the letter if he couldn't you know if there's

01:46:12.180 some of them it's like you write the letter and then you cut off the side and weave it in and out

01:46:16.520 so like as soon as you open it it rips like you can't undo that so he would just redo it but he

01:46:21.540 was so good like what is this skill set wow who are you ryan philippe like i'm i don't know like

01:46:29.980 i part of me is thinking like is this some you know like um sometimes people like with

01:46:34.740 neurodivergence who can just be like so good at playing piano or so it's just like i think ryan

01:46:38.800 philippe just has the knack for this and he happened to live in a time and place and walsing

01:46:42.960 him found him where it's in today's world if he lived now in my city what would his job be i don't

01:46:49.320 know but he lived there and his people who solve a rubik's cube in three seconds yeah and that's it

01:46:54.860 he'd just be on tiktok making money i guess but like he was so perfectly suited to this task and

01:47:00.080 without him like none of this no like ryan philippe whose name we don't know his name is

01:47:06.840 just like philippe like we don't know his real name but he's he's a star of this like too bad

01:47:13.780 he was on the other side not mary's side i know but like perfect alignment of need and skill like

01:47:19.180 and just waltzing him like his scouting like finding this guy where did you find this guy

01:47:24.360 was he like a street hustler like doing some was he solving something you know like i bet you this

01:47:30.660 guy could flawless i like to imagine that he was like a petty criminal in the art world or something

01:47:35.960 yeah like white collared i don't know i picture him he's on the street doing that thing where you

01:47:42.440 know put the ball under the cups and it's like which one is it under and they're like that guy

01:47:46.000 i bet he could do expert forgery but i said earlier i think in an earlier episode maybe

01:47:52.200 last week, Mary, her handwriting could be easily copied. It wasn't weird. It was like a very

01:47:59.540 standard handwriting. So it's not, Ryan Phillippe had all these skills, but I think

01:48:04.260 forging Mary's handwriting was like, with the casket letters we have seen, like not hard.

01:48:09.020 Like her handwriting was pretty basic. Like it's a pretty, it's not weird. Anyway. Yeah. So honestly,

01:48:14.640 like just Ryan Phillippe again. So part of these codes, like, again, we talked before,

01:48:18.320 like you'd have the letters and a pile of letters so which letter was on top of which letter would

01:48:23.020 amplify a message how are these in beer casks i don't know which beer cask you open first like

01:48:29.440 yeah and then since the letters they might be stitched together in a complicated pattern

01:48:35.460 but ryan philippe was able to decipher the codes replicate what was going on and then put them back

01:48:40.940 in that same order it's just like insane just insane how what is happening okay anyway so

01:48:48.400 tony babs was tricked to think that the whole thing that we said before it's just like

01:48:52.680 to unseat elizabeth you need to have like an army coming from spain basically or rome like

01:48:58.940 the vatican like so tony babs was tricked to think that the spanish forces were good to go

01:49:03.940 that the english catholics were primed and ready and so he wrote to mary being like everything's

01:49:08.260 in place oh my god i'm like 18 years old and i'm amazing he recruited friends to join him and then

01:49:13.460 wrote mary a long incriminating treason letter outlining the plan yes he did he's just like

01:49:19.140 okay here's my treason let me describe it in excruciating detail yeah no exactly all of the

01:49:25.160 other people who are involved and tell you exactly what we're gonna plan to do and no one needs to

01:49:29.880 worry about because this cipher is so foolproof so the plan was tony babs along with 10 of his pals

01:49:37.820 would free Mary with 100 supporters at their backs.

01:49:40.780 Like, I feel like the amount of armed guards

01:49:42.840 around Mary is more than that.

01:49:44.480 I do feel like 100 people is not enough people.

01:49:46.760 No.

01:49:46.940 But okay, don't know.

01:49:48.000 Meanwhile, six other guys, six,

01:49:50.820 would go grab Elizabeth and execute her.

01:49:53.980 That's my favorite part of the plan. 0.99

01:49:55.280 Six men.

01:49:57.280 It was like me and my five of my other bros,

01:50:00.200 one of whom I think was a priest.

01:50:01.780 I'm just like, what are we doing, my man?

01:50:04.660 How are you going to even get in through the door? 0.99

01:50:06.680 six guys like even when the asshole lords in scotland are doing stuff they're like we have 0.89

01:50:12.200 500 guys they all send the paper great like like if you're gonna go with six news just at least 0.97

01:50:17.420 wait till spain shows up because this is not gonna happen six guys couldn't have kidnapped

01:50:21.780 13 year old baby bj like six okay so he's just like anyway so this letter comes being like hey

01:50:29.920 mary here's my plan blah blah blah and then her secretary claude now was like it feels like a trap

01:50:35.460 to his credit he's like uh maybe don't reply to this letter agreeing to treason maybe so she wrote

01:50:47.380 back saying like i approve of this plan but be careful but this was the trap like she fell into

01:50:53.300 the trap she had condoned treason by saying i approve of this plan to be sure though when this

01:50:59.160 letter was like in the in-between stages ryan philippe or walsingham added a ps to the letter

01:51:04.640 from mary where mary's like hey this treason sounds great p.s can you tell me the names of

01:51:09.200 the six guys that was what walsingham added and then tony babb was like oh yeah for sure

01:51:16.060 it's gilbert it's james is william it's like he gives the names he gives the name and i love that

01:51:22.260 mary's reply to this letter is like yes love this um if we could kill elizabeth and i'll be free

01:51:28.160 that would be wonderful please be careful i'm suspicious of spies it's my favorite i just

01:51:34.120 imagine every time waltz came opening that letter being like hey yes you should be more suspicious

01:51:39.360 of spies mary what are you doing and that's the thing like it's yeah like 10 years ago mary would

01:51:45.340 never have done this but she was so broken down and so just like frantic and also it's like what

01:51:50.380 else is she gonna do like what's she gonna do this is the first time anyone's like shown her

01:51:55.440 they're on her side in 20 years yeah like her son like betrayed her like elizabeth's not helping 0.98

01:52:01.380 her is just like she needs she's been like amias paulet is just like fucking nightmare puritan 0.55

01:52:07.020 okay so at the same time so her now adult son king james the six of scotland um signed a treaty 0.77

01:52:14.060 with england but it didn't mention mary so her not being mentioned in this at all made her even

01:52:20.420 more furious and even more ready to like get in on this tony babs plot so i mean obviously tony babs

01:52:28.160 and his friends are all arrested because surprise they were not good at this

01:52:34.940 although i will say one step better than t-dog because tony bebb's head burned mary's letters

01:52:41.220 they weren't under his doormat so okay that's one thing he did right oh thanks but he was tortured

01:52:48.680 until he revealed what the letters had said but which is just kind of like cecil and walsingham

01:52:53.340 knew what they said because they had copies and had read them i know why did you do this to him 0.62

01:52:57.660 he's just a dummy he's just a little eddie redmane so elizabeth ordered that the execution

01:53:02.540 of the first seven of these conspirators 14 of them were arrested so the first half of them she 0.53

01:53:07.780 said that this execution should be as awful and as public as possible to dissuade other people

01:53:12.240 from doing treasons so these guys were it was gross like they were direct trigger warning i don't

01:53:17.680 know it was bad you know how bad executions were this was especially bad even the most passionate 0.73

01:53:27.160 The Protestants were like, Elizabeth, this is like, maybe that's a bit much. 0.59

01:53:32.700 And so the execution of the next, of the other half were done more perfectly and quickly. 0.96

01:53:38.380 Which is what's interesting, isn't it? 0.91

01:53:40.560 That Elizabeth's older sister, Mary, is like, oh my God, Bloody Mary, she killed all these Protestants. 0.86

01:53:45.780 It's like, Elizabeth killed way more Catholics. 0.96

01:53:48.940 Yeah, she did. 0.99

01:53:50.300 She's the mother of the country, or whatever.

01:53:53.820 Yeah, I mean, yeah, and also.

01:53:55.480 yeah it's just it's interesting it's interesting it's interesting that there are similarities

01:54:03.380 between their two reigns and one of them is like she was gloriana and the other one is like she

01:54:07.620 talked it's just interesting mary didn't know any of this had happened because she used to be on top 0.79

01:54:12.900 of everything but now she um between everybody and her letters and not having servants and no

01:54:19.680 one helping her like she didn't know that this she didn't know that this plan hadn't happened

01:54:23.300 like she sent a letter to tony babs to be like great let's do this treason and then just didn't

01:54:27.900 hear anything she didn't know that they were being executed and then she's like okay i guess

01:54:30.960 we're just waiting for spain let me sit here and wait until when the armada show up to save me

01:54:36.240 great so then she's taken by surprise when amaya's paulet was like hey do you want to go deer

01:54:42.460 hunting and she's like oh my god yes i love hunting and riding horses wearing pants and so

01:54:48.800 she thought like oh and this is so heartbreaking too she's like wow she's like i get to go outside

01:54:53.400 yay so she's like maybe i'm gonna run into some important fancy people so she's like put on her

01:54:58.360 best outfit and she's just like going hunting wearing my outfit like feeling like herself

01:55:04.400 and a group of men approached and initially she thought oh these are maybe the noblemen

01:55:09.220 maybe they're the guys who are here to rescue me but instead they were emissaries from cecil

01:55:13.740 who arrested her two secretaries.

01:55:16.380 Mary was commanded to follow them

01:55:18.040 and she fell to the ground,

01:55:20.000 refusing to move.

01:55:21.500 Honestly, a classic move

01:55:23.000 done by numerous toddlers

01:55:25.000 can be successful, 0.95

01:55:27.800 but they took her.

01:55:28.720 Was not this.

01:55:29.800 No.

01:55:30.440 So she had been staying at this point

01:55:32.600 at a place called Chartley Manor.

01:55:34.580 Her chambers were looted

01:55:35.760 by just people who wanted her stuff.

01:55:38.820 Her letters and ciphers

01:55:39.800 were gathered up and taken for evidence.

01:55:41.700 Amias Pollitt fired most of her staff

01:55:43.660 because he was like,

01:55:44.160 you're not going to need

01:55:44.720 these servants anymore.

01:55:45.600 And remember how much

01:55:46.280 she cared for her servants. 0.75

01:55:47.640 She was like always paying them 0.99

01:55:49.060 and treating them so well. 0.61

01:55:49.960 And this Puritan is just like, 1.00

01:55:52.020 fuck off all of you guys. 1.00

01:55:53.760 He sucks so bad. 1.00

01:55:56.160 Just, ugh. 1.00

01:55:57.080 He's coming late in the game,

01:55:58.980 but he's got a real shot

01:56:00.340 at most villainous villain,

01:56:02.400 Amaius Paulette.

01:56:02.820 Because he's doing this for no reason.

01:56:04.560 Like, there's no reason

01:56:05.600 for him to be this.

01:56:06.180 He has no, like, what's it called?

01:56:08.460 He's no, like, dice in the game.

01:56:10.360 He's not, he's like...

01:56:11.260 He's got no standing.

01:56:12.180 Like...

01:56:12.620 He's just some guy.

01:56:13.820 He's not like, I want my grandson to be king. 1.00

01:56:15.760 He's just like some fucking Puritan 1.00

01:56:17.640 who just likes being an asshole, basically. 1.00

01:56:21.560 I just wanted to have a little callback. 0.99

01:56:23.320 Like some of the stuff who she had had up to this point

01:56:25.900 included young Willy,

01:56:27.840 but also Bastion Pages and his wife, Crystal Lee Hogg,

01:56:31.900 who you might recall,

01:56:32.760 that was the wedding that she attended,

01:56:34.160 the dance when Darnley was killed.

01:56:36.180 Those two had been with her this whole time.

01:56:38.900 Bastion, Pages,

01:56:40.120 and this is the importance of,

01:56:41.440 If you have a memorable name, I'm going to mention you on my podcast more than once.

01:56:46.100 There's probably some other servants who I have come across, but they're all called James, and I forgot them.

01:56:51.940 So, okay.

01:56:52.580 So Mary is taken to Fatheringay Castle, and she's told she's going to be put on trial.

01:56:57.200 Because remember, even though she's a queen now, there's a thing where it's like, these like 17 specific to her laws are like, well, if Mary...

01:57:04.380 The Mary Queen of Scots specifically can be put on trial law was passed seven years ago.

01:57:08.500 Yeah, exactly. 0.67

01:57:09.500 So she's going to be put on trial at Fatheringay.

01:57:11.440 castle on october 15th 1586 the trial began so she entered the room to see there was 37

01:57:18.360 men there who were peers they were like i guess like her jury i guess mary was wearing her

01:57:24.780 trademark black velvet a gown with a train with a long sheer veil billowing behind her she's being

01:57:31.160 like i'm mary and my look is black and white like a veil like let's go it's so legendary the way she 0.88

01:57:39.140 dresses for this she's just like bitch look at me I'm here let's go well and this is why William 1.00

01:57:45.520 Cecil was always like she can never appear in court like she's she'll make too much of this 1.00

01:57:50.000 sensation she is like you know how this woman uses an outfit she cannot show up this is like 1.00

01:57:54.380 Rihanna at the Met Gala like we can't allow this fashion power anyway so she came in and she there's

01:58:01.260 like a big throne chair and she was like oh I guess that's for me because I'm the queen and 0.87

01:58:04.680 they're like, oh, contraire. That chair represents Elizabeth, who's not here. You have to go sit in

01:58:09.440 like a normal chair. So she was not allowed to know the charges, the evidence, or to have a lawyer.

01:58:14.680 So this is even shittier than the original inquiry in terms of like a fake trial at which she has no

01:58:20.240 chance. But she said, I am alone without counsel or anyone to speak in my behalf. My papers and

01:58:25.880 notes have been taken from me. So I'm destitute of all aid taken at a disadvantage. My crimes

01:58:30.660 consist in my birth the injuries that have been inflicted on me and my religion which fair slash

01:58:37.000 true and the treason you were going to do but and but you know those other things led to this

01:58:43.320 so knowing that these guys were going to yell at her john knock style and just be like you're a 0.98

01:58:47.800 whore etc she had prepared a whole counter offensive you know what she came in here prepared 0.99

01:58:52.320 like she knew this was a fake trial but she was still like prepared because she's good at this 1.00

01:58:58.000 shit. So part of what she did is like, I mean, I, the only example I can think of is a terrible 0.99

01:59:04.180 example, but so she entered like, she's wearing her outfit, but she wasn't like, I'm six feet

01:59:09.220 tall and gorgeous. She entered like stooped, leaning on the arms of servants, looking feeble 0.95

01:59:13.720 and weak, like the veil kind of accentuated her delicacy and her innocence. She said, 0.83

01:59:18.500 I cannot walk without assistance, nor use my arms. And I spend most of my time confined to bed.

01:59:23.160 She wept and cried, presenting herself as a victim rather than as an assassin.

01:59:27.020 and the comparison i'm gonna say is that time that when gandalf shows up in rohan in the second

01:59:31.800 lord of the rings movie and he's leaning on somebody's arm and he's like wrapped in an old

01:59:35.720 cloak and he's like i am a weak old man and then like when he needs to be powerfully like

01:59:40.380 beam of light like that's what this is that's strategically being she's just like oh i'm a poor

01:59:46.540 frail woman me anyway but then william sesal was like yeah but when you were the teen queen of

01:59:51.600 france did you not have your coat of arms include england and people said you were queen of england

01:59:57.740 and she was like that was a million years ago 10 vulgar history episodes ago like what really

02:00:05.580 really that's the most recent treason you have and that but that's really what put her on the

02:00:11.580 map for him like when that happened like when she the coat of arms was like cecil was like

02:00:17.400 gonna destroy her from that really anyway she's like yes okay i did do that but that was my diggy's

02:00:23.140 uncle's decision and i was just a child and then she's like walsingham you were the one who invented

02:00:29.680 coded letters and plots against elizabeth this is all fake i wasn't involved in the tony babs plot

02:00:35.640 quote can i be responsible for the criminal projects of a few desperate men which they

02:00:40.020 plan without my knowledge or participation and the answer is yes because they passed a law to

02:00:44.500 that effect five years ago that yes she can be held liable without her participation so there

02:00:49.600 was a debate here's a quote i want to say so some of the men who were there the jury said this is

02:00:54.980 pick this is like a tag yourself okay they called her the daughter of sedition the mother of

02:01:00.480 rebellion the nurse of impiety the handmaid of iniquity the sister of unshamefulness i am the

02:01:07.060 sister of unshamefulness i i think i'm the nurse of impiety anyway they all agreed she's guilty of 0.80

02:01:12.700 treason and should be sentenced to death. And Elizabeth was like, or should she? So at the 0.98

02:01:19.240 parliament where this verdict was supposed to be ratified, Elizabeth was like, maybe. So she gave

02:01:25.900 two speeches. She was very good, Elizabeth, at giving speeches that said nothing but sounded

02:01:31.520 good. She's a real White House press secretary of a person. You can talk for 45 minutes and she

02:01:38.000 didn't say a damn thing so her speeches were kind of like yes maybe we should execute her 0.95

02:01:43.320 or maybe we should not execute her our two options that exist right now so it's her same thing where 1.00

02:01:52.980 it's just like if she had mary executed then england might be attacked by france spain scotland

02:01:57.900 the vatican all at once yeah and also putting a monarch to death who was her cousin contained her

02:02:04.680 reputation as the fair and virtuous virgin queen and then also if you kill one queen then it's like

02:02:09.860 hey guess who can be killed queens and that puts her at risk so that's on the one side on the other 0.65

02:02:16.740 side it's like mary is like a threat to her and like was planning to assassinate her so this trial

02:02:23.280 was in october so then it's like turns to winter and elizabeth is still like what to do mary

02:02:29.740 meanwhile is just like writing what she assumes she's going to be executed. She writes what she

02:02:34.540 thinks will be her funnel letters, gifting what few items she had left to the people she still

02:02:38.320 liked. She sent a diamond to the Spanish ambassador with a request it'd be used to help pay

02:02:43.100 her staff after she was dead because she was a good boss. Although how did she still have a

02:02:48.580 diamond? Was it with her when she went out horse riding that day? Must have been. She was dressed

02:02:52.320 well. True. Maybe it was like in like her earrings or something. Although she did spend like a year

02:02:57.700 at bothering a, waiting for the trial

02:02:59.680 and then waiting for Elizabeth to make up her mind.

02:03:01.540 So she might've been like,

02:03:02.300 can you send my stuff from the other house?

02:03:04.680 True, yeah.

02:03:05.620 She'd like to have her own stuff with her.

02:03:07.560 I know, but the other people had gone through her stuff.

02:03:11.120 I guess what reason was she gonna commit with one diamond?

02:03:14.640 So December 4th, the death sentence was announced.

02:03:17.700 Elizabeth could still revoke it,

02:03:19.320 but now the public knew.

02:03:20.700 So this was kind of like Elizabeth running a test

02:03:22.880 to be like, how will people react

02:03:24.320 if they know that she's gonna be executed?

02:03:26.540 and it played pretty well church bells were rung bonfires were lit people in england were like

02:03:32.780 basically people in scotland and other and like france and the catholic countries were kind of

02:03:39.720 like i don't know about this but nobody was threatening war so that was like okay mary's

02:03:45.920 biggest concern now like knowing she was going to die was that elizabeth was going to execute her 0.99

02:03:50.200 privately because mary wanted to have a big scene because she's going to be like you like you don't 1.00

02:03:55.720 want me to be a symbol for like catholic martyrs like fuck you i'm gonna be the biggest symbol 0.99

02:04:00.700 fuck you i'll be the best martyr yeah yeah she loves the show and if this is gonna be her last 1.00

02:04:06.100 show mary's gonna go out with some drama exactly so she was just worried that elizabeth was going 1.00

02:04:10.600 to kill her in private so she wrote to elizabeth being like please let my execution be in public

02:04:14.620 and also please i would like to be buried in france not in scotland this letter also intercepted

02:04:20.760 and kept in Cecil's files, not delivered to Elizabeth.

02:04:23.940 So Elizabeth was like, okay, well, if Mary expresses regret,

02:04:29.200 maybe I can call this off.

02:04:30.580 But Mary did not express.

02:04:31.900 Like, she was all in her murder era.

02:04:34.240 She's just like, I'm going to be executed, 1.00

02:04:35.900 and it's going to be the biggest fuck you ever. 1.00

02:04:37.700 She's not going to be like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm Protestant now. 1.00

02:04:40.860 Absolutely not.

02:04:41.780 It's too late for that.

02:04:43.120 She spent 18 years sitting alone getting mad.

02:04:45.440 She's not going to be like, oh, no, actually, now it's fine.

02:04:48.100 She was ready to have Elizabeth murdered by the king of Spain.

02:04:52.040 She's not going back now.

02:04:53.320 No.

02:04:53.680 And so Elizabeth went to Amias Pollitt and was like, can you like quietly poison her food so she can just kind of like die of like, quote unquote, national, like natural causes?

02:05:03.380 And Amias Pollitt, to his credit, was like, I'm a Puritan.

02:05:06.660 No, Puritans don't poison people.

02:05:09.720 So, I mean, his ethics are interesting.

02:05:12.500 I ruined her life in every other way, but I won't do that.

02:05:15.440 Even I draw the line somewhere.

02:05:17.440 And the thought of her, like, impending, like, martyr-based death seemed to energize her.

02:05:23.600 Like, you're right. 1.00

02:05:24.260 She had this show, and she's just going to be like, you're going to execute me, and I'm going to fuck your life. 1.00

02:05:29.280 Like, here's what's happening. 1.00

02:05:31.280 Her physician reported he had not seen her so joyous nor so constantly at ease for the last seven years.

02:05:37.280 And she's also, like, I do think her Catholic faith is really genuine.

02:05:42.900 And she's been trapped in a house without knowing what's going to happen to her for so long now.

02:05:47.300 I'm going to die. I've done all of the things right. I'm going to go to heaven. I'm going to

02:05:51.920 be free. I see my mom. You know, it'll be great. I just have to get there. Like there's a real

02:05:57.980 martyr energy to her that I think she is taking some emotional solace and not just that it's a 0.99

02:06:03.960 fuck you because it is, but it's also like, this is my out. This is how I get out of this. 0.99

02:06:08.860 And there's also something for her specific kind of Catholicness that there's a glory,

02:06:13.000 like being a martyr is a goal for some people in a way to like to die for your faith is like the

02:06:18.820 best way to die so this she would have preferred not to die i think and have been queen of scotland

02:06:26.320 but this is like this is not a bad i mean it's a bad outcome but like it's a good bad outcome

02:06:32.420 this is for her she's going out she's going out on her terms and she's going out with drama

02:06:36.820 so that feels i'm sure like a comfort definitely and they're like there's definitely something

02:06:42.060 about the catholic everything you just said like finding comfort in the fact that i think it's

02:06:48.080 something like one of the books i read but i was just like i don't have the brain capacity to

02:06:52.140 understand what martyrdom means to catholic people but um it's i think it's like a shortcut

02:06:58.480 to heaven or something it's like the most honorable thing you can do is to die for your faith like

02:07:03.400 this is like i mean they associate saints and martyrs together so like you've either you've

02:07:09.060 conducted some sort of miracle in your life or you were willing to give up everything for god

02:07:14.340 and that's like i i don't know if this was still in the purgatory days for catholics or not i

02:07:19.940 believe probably was so if you died and you had like sins you weren't repented for yet you would

02:07:26.500 spend time in purgatory and people would have to pray for you so you could get to heaven and it

02:07:29.920 would be painful and take a long time and you would still suffer but martyrdom was like straight to

02:07:35.980 the front of the line right and you did an incredible job look at you dying for god so

02:07:40.340 like yeah it's a it's a big move it's a it's a positive thing for her in that way so the fact

02:07:46.620 that she was like energized is was like oh interesting but it's like to her and her faith

02:07:52.560 this was like not best case scenario but that would be being alive but second best is and it's

02:08:00.460 just such an interesting thing to think about her personality when you compare what happened to like

02:08:04.540 jane gray this is a very similar kind of it's very similar you're just like oh but the vibes

02:08:10.520 here mary's like fuck this i'm going out and maybe it's age maybe it's maturity maybe it's 0.65

02:08:17.100 personality i don't know but it just feels so different so time is passing so elizabeth has 0.99

02:08:24.200 still not signed the death warrant she's just like dragging this out because she's just really

02:08:29.120 wants to make sure before she commits to this it's like the right thing it's not going to make her

02:08:32.660 look bad and no one's going to invade preferably yeah so february 1st so this is such a like

02:08:39.820 play acted thing so cecil took a sick day usually he's the one who like brings her the paperwork

02:08:45.880 to sign but he's like oh i'm sick today so he sent like this other lackey to bring the paperwork

02:08:51.100 to elizabeth and he tucked the death warrant in among the pile of other papers so elizabeth was

02:08:55.480 like i'm just signing some papers so she could plausibly later be like oh no the death warrant 0.86

02:09:00.480 was there what an accident i didn't mean to do that so that she signed it in this kind of like

02:09:06.380 play acting way and that's so often how it's told the story she's like oh she didn't know

02:09:11.720 or oh it was a mistake and it's like that's her pr she knew she knew what she was doing she wanted

02:09:18.140 it to seem like she didn't commit even though she had to do it because that's her whole thing i've

02:09:23.020 come to learn is just being like not taking a side but also she signed the paperwork and everyone

02:09:28.220 And it was just like, because she had been like not deciding for so long.

02:09:31.120 They were like, okay, we're planning this execution right now before Elizabeth can change her mind.

02:09:34.920 Let's go.

02:09:35.940 So that was February 1st.

02:09:37.360 February 7th, Mary was told she'd be executed the next day.

02:09:41.220 Cecil said she seemed not to be in any terror, but rather with a smiling cheer and pleasing countenance,

02:09:46.480 digested and accepted, saying that her death would be welcome to her, which as we had said.

02:09:51.360 So that night, she handed out the last of her wardrobe to her few remaining staff.

02:09:56.040 One guy was instructed.

02:09:57.000 do you remember she made the like bedding set for her son that was like the family crests and

02:10:02.500 like pictures of her as a lion in a cage and stuff. So she instructed somebody to send that

02:10:06.940 to her son because that they held her truth. She wanted him to know her story. If he knew the

02:10:13.240 allegories she was using, which I don't know. In the early hours of February 8th, Mary wrote her

02:10:17.640 last letter to the King of France, who was Henri. Her heart was still in the land where she had been

02:10:24.480 happiest, which was France, which was the least complicated era of her entire life. So of course

02:10:31.220 it was. By a considerable margin, France was the best. Yes. So then she stayed up all night. At 0.54

02:10:37.820 6 a.m., she retired for private prayer. And then two hours later at 8 a.m., they came for her. She

02:10:42.220 wanted her Catholic chaplain to be with her, but that was not allowed. She has to have at least 0.99

02:10:46.460 some of her women with her and two were permitted, Janet Kennedy and Elizabeth Curl. So Elizabeth 1.00

02:10:51.180 Curl was the wife of, um, her secretary, Gilbert Curl, along with four men from her household.

02:10:57.120 Okay. So Alison, explain to me. So the execution happened indoors?

02:11:02.000 Yes. Inside the castle in one of like the, like a hall, they set up like the execution block

02:11:08.140 and everything inside. And they, like anyone who was around could go and watch it. This is not the

02:11:15.000 way things are usually done and i do think it's like when mary had asked specifically can this

02:11:21.220 not be indoors can this not be private i would like to make a scene i think cecil is probably

02:11:26.240 like guess who we should not allow to make a scene let's do this indoors private it just seems like

02:11:31.600 messy on the floor i have a suspicion i have two things to say that one every old timey floor was

02:11:38.400 like covered in rushes and plants instead of like carpet because okay the floors were always gross

02:11:43.900 So they could have just swept that out and put new stuff in.

02:11:46.520 And also, second point, I don't think Cecil cared about the floors.

02:11:49.840 I think he was like, I've been waiting for this for 35 years. 1.00

02:11:53.440 Fuck the floors. 1.00

02:11:54.840 Yeah. 1.00

02:11:55.620 I was just startled when I realized that it happened indoors.

02:11:59.820 It was weird.

02:12:00.560 It's hard to picture it inside.

02:12:02.660 Yeah.

02:12:02.940 And I'm probably, I may be conflating the Mary Clive Scott's films I've seen with films

02:12:08.500 of like Anne Boleyn's execution or Jane Grey.

02:12:10.400 But I'm just picturing this like outdoor courtyard thing.

02:12:12.600 Like at the Tower of London.

02:12:14.400 Yeah.

02:12:14.600 Yeah, no, still Northern England.

02:12:16.820 Yeah.

02:12:17.180 So Mary aged 44. 0.77

02:12:19.240 She looked much older due to the life she had lived.

02:12:24.640 She could barely walk and had to lean on others to make her way to the scaffold.

02:12:29.120 People who were there to witness it included Mr. Bess as well as Amias Pollitt.

02:12:33.880 So Mary wore a gown of black satin with a long train and a transparent white veil edged in delicate lace.

02:12:41.920 her gown was adorned with buttons representing acorns symbol of the spirit her long black

02:12:47.120 sleeves were underlaid with others of purple velvet a claim of royalty around her neck she

02:12:51.700 wore a wax disc etched with the image of the lamb of christ and around her waist she had wound two

02:12:56.860 rosaries she clutched a prayer book in one hand in the other a small crucifix so it's just like 0.96

02:13:02.080 it's the most catholic fucking outfit in the world yeah yeah amazing yeah she had one last outfit and 0.95

02:13:10.780 And she was like, how can I make this the most dramatic outfit anyone has ever worn? 0.99

02:13:16.760 Well, just wait.

02:13:18.620 So the Protestant dean of the Peterborough Cathedral was there and he began to deliver a lengthy speech.

02:13:25.340 But Mary started talking over him in Latin at the same time.

02:13:29.280 I love her so much. 1.00

02:13:31.580 She was like, fuck you, I'm a Catholic. 1.00

02:13:33.320 I will be Catholic loudly in front of you. 1.00

02:13:35.900 So he stopped talking because she was talking.

02:13:37.960 and then when he stopped talking then she switched from latin to english so everyone there would

02:13:42.320 understand what she was saying so she prayed for an end to her troubles she prayed for her son and

02:13:47.040 for elizabeth she asked god to forgive england and excuse her enemies at the end she held up

02:13:52.080 the crucifix kissed it made the sign of the cross so just like love it like the combination of like

02:13:58.500 righteous martyrdom and just like drama is so merry to me and then so the two women she had

02:14:07.460 with her came up to unpin her outer garments for her final outfit reveal so this is like so she had

02:14:14.520 like an outfit inside of another outfit she did a quick change guys like she's on stage on broadway

02:14:20.780 she died with a quick change yeah it's like the outfit reveal it's like again it's like a rupaul's

02:14:26.880 drag race like you know like an outfit in an outfit so inside of the black outfit she's wearing

02:14:34.340 a red blood red petticoat and bodice the color of martyrdom symbolic of human sacrifice allegedly 0.99

02:14:40.880 elizabeth's mother and boleyn had also worn red to her execution so a little bit of like hey

02:14:46.580 elizabeth like what's this make you think of and then the women who were with her put red sleeves

02:14:52.640 on to match the dress so like so she went from the black outfit to this red ensemble one of the

02:14:59.880 executioners went to remove remember she's wearing the like wax disc from around her neck because

02:15:04.120 i'm so sorry you just realized why no no a tip for the hangman the name of your book

02:15:12.780 because usually hangmen like you give the people the person's executing you you would give them

02:15:19.680 a gift to be kind of like i forgive you or whatever you forgive them and then you pay them

02:15:24.600 because it's their job yeah they get some of your clothes or you get some a couple of coins and

02:15:28.800 they're like thanks appreciate it now i'm gonna i didn't write this down i completely didn't write

02:15:32.860 this down but did you know what the executor's name was no no i don't bull

02:15:37.700 no just one word his name is just bull first name last name like share yeah so bull tried to take

02:15:49.060 the this from around her neck because it would have been like worth something or whatever and 0.97

02:15:52.060 also in the way like and in the way and she's like no and gave it to one of her women and then 0.61

02:15:57.500 janet kennedy wrapped a white cloth around her eyes and it wasn't just like a regular white cloth

02:16:02.100 It was like the kind used at mass to protect the wine.

02:16:04.480 So they'd like taken it from like a Catholic church. 0.99

02:16:06.620 Because she's so extra. 1.00

02:16:08.020 Yeah.

02:16:09.000 She embraced and kissed her women, made the sign of the cross again,

02:16:12.020 then knelt down and recited,

02:16:14.040 Into your hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit. 0.99

02:16:17.760 The last words of Jesus fucking Christ. 0.99

02:16:21.800 Our dramatic queen was like, 0.99

02:16:24.680 you know who else reminds me of this situation?

02:16:27.940 The Lord Jesus Christ.

02:16:30.500 It was like, you know, if you're going to be executed as a Catholic martyr, she just like, she did it.

02:16:36.460 Like that's. 0.61

02:16:37.060 She hit all of the beats. 0.98

02:16:39.920 That's what you do.

02:16:41.440 So then there was a thing where the executioner held up her head to be like, look, she's really dead.

02:16:45.580 But he was only holding the wig.

02:16:49.040 Mary Seaton, meanwhile, in France is like, hey.

02:16:51.560 there is a legend that she her lips continued to move in prayer for 15 minutes afterwards

02:16:59.600 mr bess cried and then apparently one of her little dogs a little terrier dog had crept under

02:17:06.620 her long skirt and stayed by her side and been with her as she died afterwards the dog allegedly

02:17:12.460 lay in the the blood between her head and her shoulders and refused to leave eventually the

02:17:17.240 dog was taken to be cleaned because um everything her outfit everything that had been there had to

02:17:23.600 be removed well okay the dog was cleaned all of her outfits had to be burned because basically

02:17:29.020 there's that weird catholic thing where people take stuff relics and make them be like holy items

02:17:34.880 and they're like nothing from this execution can remain even the blood on the dog needs to be

02:17:39.080 cleaned off because otherwise it would be like you have it in the altar of some treasonous catholic

02:17:43.880 church somewhere as like they have the fingernails of marius stewart and they know exactly miracles

02:17:48.280 or something but you have feelings about the dog i think i i it's adorable and i just it also makes

02:17:55.280 me incredibly sad so it's like that tiny last note almost of comedy at the end which i find

02:18:02.140 extremely upsetting to me it's like there's this she staged everything she choreographed every

02:18:10.140 single beat of her execution and then just imagining at the very end of it a little dog

02:18:14.520 poking its nose out from under her skirt is just like that makes me want to cry yeah well and I

02:18:20.120 think this is why in so many like she became a real heroine in the 19th century art world there's so

02:18:26.580 many paintings and they're mostly about like Rizzio and Darnley but there's almost always a little dog

02:18:31.120 in every one of those paintings and I think it's because this part of the story really um connects

02:18:35.080 with people and I don't know logistically if it's true because like how did that dog hide

02:18:39.980 under her skirt as she walked through an entire room like that's an extremely well-trained dog 0.99

02:18:43.520 i don't know but you know what it's quite an image she could have i wouldn't put it past her

02:18:48.880 to train the dog to do that like she'd stage manage this whole thing but what's interesting

02:18:53.940 about we're going to talk next time about her legacy and stuff but part of where she became

02:18:59.740 very a popular subject for artists in the 19th century was because victoria was the queen and

02:19:04.900 they're like okay we have this queen it's like well the last time there was a queen it was

02:19:07.480 elizabeth it's like but she like didn't marry and didn't have children so they're like but mary did

02:19:12.860 but we can't blame elizabeth for what happened to mary so they just really paint mary as this like

02:19:18.260 oh woe is me like fortune and fate have like fucked me over like it's a weird rebrand of both

02:19:25.780 mary and elizabeth yeah okay so i'm just gonna like wrap up the execution era so her severed 0.74

02:19:31.380 head was shown to crowds outside through a window to be like look she's dead mary's women wanted to 0.98

02:19:35.740 strip her body and lay out her corpse but they weren't allowed in fact her servants were all 0.86

02:19:39.400 locked in their rooms her body was embalmed and wrapped in wax cloth and a local plumber

02:19:43.820 came to encase it in lead plumber wild a wild detail i did not know yeah this was not standard

02:19:51.940 but again just wait plumber does that just mean like someone who works with lead like pb the um

02:19:59.340 elemental symbol for lead because there was no indoor plumbing so it wasn't a plumber i think

02:20:04.440 it was a lead worker that makes more sense you watched ann and i look at each other like

02:20:11.100 what toilet was he fixing it yes the local lead worker came to encase her body but this is like

02:20:19.860 the body was embalmed and again because they didn't want her like finger bone to become a

02:20:24.860 relic or whatever they had to just be like no one can ever touch this body so when elizabeth was

02:20:29.420 told mary was dead she was like oh herman my pills pretending to be upset um like what that

02:20:36.140 paperwork i signed me anyway the guy the substitute cecil who had given her the papers was put in the 0.51

02:20:44.140 tower of london for 18 months to be like how dare you give this oh my god i'd be so mad like 0.97

02:20:50.500 yeah honestly elizabeth like she's that bitch too like this is like she played her part as well 0.97

02:20:57.120 anyway up in scotland her son james was just like wait what just happened so he severed his deal 1.00

02:21:02.980 with england he's like i'm not gonna be your ally anymore fuck you england which would have made 0.97

02:21:07.560 mary really happy if she could have known that definitely for once in france so there was back 0.99

02:21:13.660 when she like came over there was two poets both called pierre one of them was a dirtbag stalker

02:21:18.920 the other pierre who had been her french tutor who's the one who like got her really interested

02:21:24.020 in french poetry wrote ah kingdom of scotland i think your days are now shorter than they were

02:21:29.000 and your nights longer since you have lost that princess who was your light which is lovely like

02:21:34.380 basically france was like oh we loved her yeah so in france a memorial is held at the cathedral

02:21:41.140 of notre dame the archbishop said besides that marvelous beauty which attracted the eyes of all

02:21:45.800 the world she had a disposition so excellent and understanding so clear and a judgment so sound as

02:21:50.920 could rarely be paralleled by a person of her age and sex. She possessed great courage, but it was

02:21:55.660 tempered by feminine gentleness and sweetness. Mary was given a state funeral. This was all

02:22:01.200 really tricky for Elizabeth. She's like, she's a queen is dead, but also treason, but also we can't

02:22:07.120 support her, but also a queen. So she was given a state funeral at Peterborough Cathedral, the same

02:22:13.560 place where Catherine of Aragon had been interred, which is kind of like, this is where we put the 0.99

02:22:17.600 queens we don't really want to this is the cathedral for problem queens that we've fucked up 0.89

02:22:23.860 with yeah so anyway it was a protestant service and they like paid local peasant women to like 0.98

02:22:32.020 go there and cry as the official mourners because her staff was still locked in their rooms i think

02:22:36.420 we're ending here for today because that was extraordinarily long and net we're gonna do all

02:22:42.380 the scoring, talking about her legacy and stuff. Not next week. Next week is Claire Hunter

02:22:47.540 embroidery talk. Embroidery time. I'm excited for that one. And then the one after that is going to

02:22:53.360 be, we're going to talk about the score and stuff. Alison, can you please explain to people in a

02:22:57.860 non-spoilery way how your book involves some of this story? Yeah. My book is about Boston

02:23:05.620 him spy network during this time, essentially. And so it starts sort of in the early stages of

02:23:12.720 the Babington plot. And one of the major plot threads through that book, through about the

02:23:17.660 midpoint of the book, is how my protagonist is engaged in the Babington plot and the execution

02:23:24.360 of Mary Queen of Scots. I don't think that's a spoiler. I am following at least that much history.

02:23:28.560 There's some creative license going on throughout, but I am telling kind of the story that we did

02:23:33.980 in today's episode in my book, A Tip for the Hanged Man, available wherever books are sold.

02:23:39.700 And you sort of imagine Kit Marlowe in sort of the Ryan Phillippe type role.

02:23:46.040 Yes.

02:23:46.600 Yeah.

02:23:47.220 Because you all heard me get extremely excited about Ryan Phillippe because I think that

02:23:51.200 role is so interesting. And I was like, okay, what would it be like if that person

02:23:55.760 was also a dumbass gay disaster? That is what I did. 1.00

02:23:59.980 Exactly. And then for people who want to keep up with you and what you're up to, you have a website?

02:24:07.820 I do. Alisonepstein.com. That website also links to my sub stack, which is Dirtbags Through the Ages, which features many of the assholes we've discussed in this Mary Queen of Scots series, as well as numerous others and why they suck.

02:24:21.420 And if people want to go back and listen, you've been on numerous episodes of this podcast,

02:24:25.800 but the very first appearance you did was when A Tip for the Hangman first came out and you were

02:24:29.760 talking about Christopher Marlowe. So if you want to go back and hear you sort of explain more about

02:24:35.120 the book and about Christopher Marlowe and what bits of history you took to extrapolate to be

02:24:41.800 like, what if he was Ryan Phillippe? Like we talk about that there. If you scroll back in your

02:24:46.440 vulgar history on your pod catcher you can see that and i usually have notes in front of me but

02:24:52.960 this document i didn't have notes so i'm going to try to remember off the top of my head

02:24:55.660 so on instagram i'm on instagram at vulgar history pod i'm on tiktok at vulgar history

02:25:01.060 and if you want transcriptions which are being done by aveline malik from the wordery you can

02:25:06.420 get transcriptions of the most recent episodes at vulgar history.com just click on the episode you

02:25:11.100 want. And like Evelyn is like slowly going through some of these episodes, like today's

02:25:16.180 are incredibly long. So she does what she can. Anyway, we're slowly adding transcripts to

02:25:21.540 episodes. And so if the one you want to read doesn't have a transcription, just check back

02:25:26.660 because it'll be there shortly. And Patreon, I'm at patreon.com slash Anne Foster Writer.

02:25:33.500 That's where you can get early ad free access to this podcast. Vogue or Peace Theater episodes

02:25:37.280 featuring allison and also our friend lana uh talking about various costume dramas from history

02:25:43.180 i do think i'm gonna this isn't finalized and it's just a proposal but i think the three of us

02:25:49.260 should watch the saoirse ronan mary queen of scots movie i think that would be very interesting

02:25:54.800 i think we we have to at this point i feel like there has to be at least one mary queen of scots

02:26:01.040 film and that's gonna be the easiest one to find and i think it will be interesting for me because

02:26:06.240 i watched that when it came out but now that i know who so many of the men are i'll be like

02:26:10.320 that's that guy oh my god hollywood i've been jimmy stewart like instead of just like i don't

02:26:13.900 know who all these men are so i'll just focus on mary i'll be like that guy that guy scotch

02:26:17.980 mackie it's a douglas oh my god a douglas yeah i think that will be a thing i will yell in that

02:26:23.960 movie anyway so that's coming up and is that everything oh merch yes most importantly the

02:26:31.080 new merch that i have the um a cat named hepburn merch which is inspired by mary's own cat

02:26:36.940 embroidery so uh which is but instead of a ginger cat representing elizabeth and a shapeless blob

02:26:43.300 of a mouse representing mary's psychological devastation it's a tortoiseshell cat who looks

02:26:49.380 happy who represents my cat hepburn who has been walking in and out of this recording this whole

02:26:53.300 time and a cute little mouse who's happy and they're friends so it's a very different vibe

02:26:57.860 from Mary's Embroidery. Anyway, you can get that on a t-shirt, a sticker, a pin, a mug,

02:27:03.440 what I got for myself, a pillow just to have a real Mary, Queen of Scots, trees and cushion

02:27:07.920 vibe. Anyway, you can get that out at vulgarhistory.com slash store where it's best for

02:27:13.480 American people. And then vulgarhistory.redbubble.com is if you're in another country,

02:27:18.520 the shipping is better at that website. Alison, you've dedicated so many hours of your life

02:27:24.400 to talking about this with me

02:27:26.200 and I could not appreciate it more.

02:27:28.340 It's your...

02:27:29.080 I do feel like the listeners should know

02:27:30.760 that Anne and I have recorded two episodes at a time

02:27:33.180 each time we've done this.

02:27:34.660 And this morning we started hours and hours ago

02:27:37.280 and I just looked up and realized what time it is now.

02:27:39.560 This was...

02:27:40.520 Time flies when we're talking about Mary Queen of Scots,

02:27:43.000 but this has been a full Saturday experience.

02:27:45.640 It has been.

02:27:46.320 Thank you so much for spending several Saturdays with me

02:27:49.240 and I look forward to having you back again

02:27:50.740 for when we get to the scoring,

02:27:52.660 which is going to be a wild discussion.

02:27:56.440 I cannot wait.

02:27:57.980 You know what, Tits of Brigade?

02:27:59.200 Let me know what scoring you think should be the scoring

02:28:02.780 because we can maybe incorporate that into our thoughts as well.

02:28:07.340 Anyway, thank you so much, Allison.

02:28:08.560 Everybody, I don't know.

02:28:10.340 I was going to be like, if you're going to be executed, do it with style.

02:28:13.700 But that's not a funny joke.

02:28:15.040 That's a terrible thing to say.

02:28:16.260 Don't get executed.

02:28:17.380 Don't get executed.

02:28:18.880 But honestly, approach every day.

02:28:21.220 like you're going to do a quick costume change

02:28:24.140 into a dramatic gown.

02:28:24.860 Always have an outfit inside your outfit

02:28:28.420 because you never know.

02:28:29.620 You never know. 0.96

02:28:30.620 And check to see if there's a little dog in your skirt. 1.00

02:28:32.560 A little cute surprise for you. 0.76

02:28:35.080 I don't know.

02:28:35.920 I am getting delusional

02:28:36.780 from having talked about this for so long.

02:28:38.440 Thank you, Alison. 0.99

02:28:39.460 Everybody, pants on, tits out. 0.93

02:28:43.220 Vulgar History is hosted, written, and researched 0.99

02:28:45.780 by Anne Foster and edited by Christina Lumagi.

02:28:51.220 To be continued...

02:29:21.220 punk chaos of cyborg fall in love with our core cast or be awed by our incredible guests 0.57

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02:29:56.980 You've watched them from the outside your whole life.

02:30:00.160 On TV, on stage, on the cover.

02:30:02.680 The success that always looks like it happened to someone on a different planet.

02:30:07.060 But what if it didn't?

02:30:08.740 I'm Evelyn and I've spent over 25 years in entertainment,

02:30:12.200 producing for some of the biggest names in Hollywood.

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02:30:15.520 The distance between you and them, it's a lot shorter than anyone's letting on.

02:30:20.760 On my podcast, Reppin', I sit down with the people you've been watching and I ask them

02:30:25.420 who they actually are, not the brand, the person, where they started, what it costs

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02:30:37.380 they've learned.

02:30:38.260 It's all yours for the taking.

02:30:41.220 Reppin', wherever you listen.

02:30:42.720 there are vampires out there they walk among you shoulder to shoulder in the dark heading to work

02:30:50.500 heading home going to the bar it's a life just like anyone else's and i have grown used to it

02:30:56.280 to the darkness to the moon to the taste of blood on my tongue but vampires are dying out

02:31:02.480 we are a fading kind and i am the first one created in so long and that is a dangerous thing

02:31:08.380 to be those who came before me elders of all stripes they do not want to see our kind gone

02:31:13.800 and they will do anything to keep their power and for myself and for grace who created me that is a

02:31:20.020 sword that hangs above our heads and the worst person of all carries our secret and he will use

02:31:26.320 it however he sees fit who do you look to when things are at their darkest from the creators of

02:31:32.920 parkdale haunt comes woodbine a podcast about monsters dreams and changes those you want

02:31:38.420 and those you never saw coming season two arrives september 24th distributed by realm

Vulgar History - July 19, 2023

Mary, Queen of Scots： Part Nine： In My End Is My Beginning

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