00:00:00.000hello and welcome to vulgar history of feminist women's history comedy podcast my name is ann
00:00:16.820foster and today is the finale of the series about mary queen of scots there's something
00:00:22.060about mary queen of scots we're going to be looking at the four marys who were her companions
00:00:27.340who have been, we mentioned them on and off throughout the whole series, but I never really
00:00:32.420got into depth about who they were, how you can tell them apart, what their connection is to the
00:00:36.140four ladies-in-waiting on the TV show Reign. And we're going to get into that today, but first I
00:00:40.200have some announcements to give you. First of all, there's some new merch in the merch store
00:00:45.640inspired by the season. So both of these designs are done by Karen Moynihan, who has designed
00:00:51.000merch for us before. She did the Reformation, Renaissance, Girl Squad, and the Mary Shelley,
00:00:55.100goth queen mom friend designs. And she did an amazing job with these new merch ideas.
00:01:01.020So the first one is in honor of the Degeese family, who we mentioned a lot throughout the
00:01:06.380whole thing. They were just really fucking things up for Mary the whole time. Oh, also to new0.92
00:01:09.820listeners. Hi, I'm going to swear on this podcast. And I also say like a normal amount. And if you
00:01:14.860can't deal with that, there's lots of other podcasts you can listen to. Anyway, so the first
00:01:18.540design just says, don't stop Degeese-n. And it looks kind of like a rock band logo from the 80s.
00:01:24.380and I love it. And the other one is inspired by a thing that friend of the podcast and frequent
00:01:29.220co-host Lana Wood Johnson said in one of the final Mary Queen of Scots episodes, which is
00:01:35.600Lana said that she's at least as good a leader as William Cecil. And that really resonated with
00:01:41.180a lot of listeners. And so this other design, it's sort of like a motivational poster, like
00:01:45.520from the eighties or nineties, it says, remember you are at least as good a leader as William
00:01:49.620Cecil. You can get that on. You can get the Don't Stop Diggies Inn on t-shirts, on stickers. You can
00:01:56.060get the William Cecil one on a poster, on a mug, various different things. And so the merch is for
00:02:00.920sale in two different places. So if you go to vulgarhistory.com slash store, that takes you to
00:02:05.540our TeePublic store where that's best for people in the US, just in terms of the shipping costs
00:02:12.260and stuff. And then if you go to vulgarhistory.redbubble.com, that takes you to our Red
00:02:16.620bubble store where the shipping is a bit better if you're living anywhere other than the United
00:02:20.480States, basically. And also I just want to let you know, stay tuned to the end of today's episode
00:02:25.500for an update about what is coming next for Vulgar History since we're at the end of the
00:02:30.200Mary Queen of Scots season. Exciting stuff is coming up next is what I want to say.
00:02:34.840I also wanted to share a book recommendation. So I've been doing several, I've had a lot of
00:02:42.940author interviews lately on the show, and we're going to continue doing those. There's not always
00:02:46.820space in the schedule to interview all the authors whose books I think would be of interest to you.
00:02:50.800So just when there's one where I'm not able to do an interview, I want to let you know about it.
00:02:54.600So especially because I've been trying to get more of a diversity of people who we talk about
00:02:59.660on the show, other than like white, Christian, European, royal women, I want to get into different
00:03:06.980people of different ethnicities, different religions from all different parts of the world.1.00
00:03:10.040And one of those groups of people that I'm trying to find more people to talk about are Jewish women. And so this book I thought would be a good one to talk about. So it's a new book coming out, Betty Friedan, Magnificent Disruptor by Rachel Stier.
00:03:22.700So the feminist writer and activist Betty Friedan, born 1921, died in 2006, was the path-breaking
00:03:28.740author of The Feminine Mystique. She was powerful and polarizing. In this biography, the first in0.94
00:03:33.440more than 20 years, Rachel Stier draws on Friedan's papers and on interviews with family,
00:03:38.180colleagues, and friends to create a nuanced portrait. Friedan, born Betty Naomi Goldstein,
00:03:43.920chafed at society's restrictions from a young age. As a journalist, she covered racism, sexism,
00:03:48.660labor, class inequality, and anti-Semitism. As a wife and mother, she struggled to balance her
00:03:53.260work and homemaking. Her malaise as a housewife and her research into the feelings of other women0.74
00:03:58.060resulted in The Feminine Mystique, published in 1963, which made her a celebrity. Using her
00:04:03.420influence, Friedan co-founded the National Organization for Women, the National Women's
00:04:07.820Political Caucus, and the National Association to Repeal Abortion Laws. She fought for the Equal0.99
00:04:12.520Rights Amendment, universal child care, and workplace protections for mothers, but she
00:04:16.540disagreed with the women's liberation movement over, quote, sexual politics. Her volatility and0.95
00:04:21.340public conflicts fractured key relationships. So in this biography, the author, Shtier,
00:04:26.060considers how Friedan's Judaism was essential to her feminism, presenting a new Friedan
00:04:30.420for a new era. So again, that book is called Betty Friedan, Magnificent Disruptor by Rachel
00:04:35.760Shtier, and has just been published. And I'll put a link to that in the show notes so you can
00:04:39.680easily find a way to learn more about the book and buy a copy. And so I do also want to give
00:04:44.940you the references for today's episode, which are, so there's a biography of Mary Queen of Scots by
00:04:51.440Antonia Frazier. For a lot of the Mary Queen of Scots episodes, I was using the biography by John
00:04:56.040Guy. Just that was the one I picked up first and that's the one I was using. But I found that the
00:05:00.100biography by Antonia Frazier, which was the first major Mary Queen of Scots biography published like
00:05:05.360in the 20th century. And it's the one that Llanowood Johnson especially loves. So I was happy
00:05:11.220to find so much information in Antonia's book about the four Marys. So I use that as a big
00:05:16.460reference for this episode. Also the book Daughters of the North by Jennifer Morag Henderson,
00:05:21.520who we had on the podcast earlier talking about Jean Gordon. So you'll see why that book has a lot
00:05:26.560of information about specifically one of these four Marys. I also got information from Claire
00:05:31.300Hunter's book Embroidering Her Truth, which talks about Mary Queen of Scots and her embroidery
00:05:36.200projects. Like again, you'll see how that interacts with this story. I also got information
00:05:40.680from wikipedia which had just times and dates and facts and if you've listened to this podcast
00:05:46.480before you know that i have no problem with using information from wikipedia often it's a quick way
00:05:52.760to find some straightforward information and that can help lead you to other resources to dive deeper
00:05:58.300into various things and then another book i used is mary queen of scots secretary william maitland
00:06:05.940politician, reformer, and I'm sorry, the title is really small on my Kindle.
00:06:14.760And conspirator is the final word. Anyway, so that's by Robert Stadel, and you'll learn why
00:06:20.400I was reading about him. He's the one who in the Mary Queen of Scots episodes, we called Scottish
00:06:25.260Machiavelli, and he has to do with the story as well. So I will also say, if you're new to this
00:06:30.200podcast, welcome. Glad to have you here. And just know that I've done a whole lot of episodes about
00:06:36.940Mary Queen of Scots leading up to this point. And there's a lot of nicknames I'm using for people.
00:06:40.820So when you're listening to this, you're like, what's she talking about? What does Hollywood
00:06:43.400icon Jimmy Stewart have to do with Mary Queen of Scots? Like just go with it. And if you want to
00:06:48.480learn how and why all these people got these nicknames, you can listen back to the Mary Queen
00:06:52.100of Scots season. So the four Marys, I love them as like, I've just loved the concept of them this
00:06:59.560whole time you know when she arrived wherever she went when she arrived in scotland for instance
00:07:03.940mary arrived with the marys and they're all dressed in like black and white and they just
00:07:07.760having them as her entourage like you just picture them strutting down the streets of
00:07:12.940anywhere they went just kind of like the slow motion walking montage at the beginning of a
00:07:18.120law and order episode or that part of mean girls where they're walking slowly down the hallway
00:07:22.480like they're just they're a girl gang and they're just like coordinated with each other within an
00:07:27.520inch of their lives. Like I just love the energy of this. And I love that Mary had these besties
00:07:31.960with her. So Mary Queen of Scots was born in Scotland. And then in 1548, when she's around
00:07:37.760five years old, she was sent to France for her own protection and safety. At the time,
00:07:41.900she was escorted by her four ladies in waiting, which is a cute thing to call a bunch of little0.71
00:07:45.640girls. They were all coincidentally named Mary. Now, I think in that TV show, The Serpent Queen,1.00
00:07:51.020I think they suggest that Mary Queen of Scots forced them all to change their name to Mary,
00:07:54.700which is maybe something that other people have said in other places but is not true like as
00:07:59.540we've learned from this podcast season there was like six names that anyone ever had in scotland
00:08:06.000at this time and mary was one of those names it's not a coincidence they are all called mary like
00:08:10.740when i was going to school and i am an elder millennial like every girl was called sarah or
00:08:15.920megan and all the boys were called chris like names become popular and people all have the
00:08:21.860same name and there's nothing nefarious about that necessarily. So they're all coincidentally
00:08:26.020named Mary. Some of them were born before her, so it's not like they're all named after her.
00:08:30.060It does seem likely that Mary, Queen of Scots' mother, Marie de Guise, personally chose these
00:08:35.920young girls to be companions to the little girl queen. So these four all had Scottish fathers
00:08:41.700and two of them had French mothers. So they could be relied upon to be loyal not only to their
00:08:46.440Scottish Queen, but also to the French Queen Mother, Marie de Guise. So they are known to
00:08:52.260history as the Four Marys, and their names are Mary Seaton, Mary Fleming, Mary Beaton, and Mary
00:08:57.680Livingston. We're talking about a lot of people called Mary today, so I'm going to try to always
00:09:01.860use their full name, sometimes just their last name. When I'm talking about the Queen, I'll say
00:09:06.060Mary Queen of Scots, probably, just so you know, or maybe I'll say the Queen. So of these, they're
00:09:11.980all of noble and high birth. All four came from notably honorable houses. Mary Fleming was also
00:09:17.700a first cousin to Mary Queen of Scots because her grandfather, they had the same grandfather,
00:09:23.980King James V. So Mary Fleming's mother was the illegitimate half-sister. Anyway, they were
00:09:29.920cousins. Don't worry about it. There's a lot of people called James. I might have just misinterpreted
00:09:33.500the family tree, but they were first cousins. They had the same grandfather. But Mary Fleming's was
00:09:38.620in an illegitimate way, and Mary Queen of Scots was in a legitimate way. So they were called the
00:09:42.720Marys, and it's spelled often as M-A-R-I-E-S, so like the Marys, because they were four people
00:09:49.280called Marys, and they were always in a group. But also in Scots, at least at that time, and maybe
00:09:54.700now also, people who speak Scots, let me know. The word Marie was used to describe, like it was a
00:10:00.440word that just meant maids and honor attendant on the Queen. So they were called Mary, but also
00:10:04.180the job was the Maryse. So in 1548, the four Maryse joined their queen. And again, these are
00:10:10.600like girls who were like basically all five years old, some a bit younger, some a bit older.
00:10:15.200And Inch Mahome Priory, so that is in Scotland, I think, in preparation for their journey to France.
00:10:20.860If you go to Inch Mahome Priory, there's, I think there's plaques and things saying that they were
00:10:26.320there, these little girls. The journey from France to Scotland was a rough sea voyage. I talked about
00:10:30.880that in one of the first Mary Queen of Scots episodes, it was recorded during this journey,
00:10:35.100all of the ladies, which again, they're called the ladies, they're like five-year-old girls.
00:10:38.860They all came down with seasickness. And this is when they kind of entered the public sphere,0.72
00:10:45.120like their public lives began. Like they were people that, I don't know, today it's like the
00:10:50.060paparazzi would follow them. Like they were just like child stars of their era. So their public
00:10:55.020lives began simultaneously when they were sailing on the galley to France in 1548. But as we're
00:11:01.540going to talk about, they weren't, they were a unit until like life reasons separated them. Like
00:11:07.520they all ended their lives differently in different interesting ways, but they sort of emerged on the
00:11:12.840public sphere simultaneously, like a new generation of the Mickey Mouse Club or whatever. So upon their
00:11:18.960arrival in France, it was made clear that their stations were different. So Mary was sent to join
00:11:25.680the royal children. So her future husband and in-laws, Princess Elizabeth, the whole gang,
00:11:32.720while the ladies, the girls, these little girls are separated from her. So the four Marys were0.99
00:11:38.080initially sent away to be educated by Dominican nuns. And so that's where they spend most of this0.61
00:11:43.440time while Mary, like they still got to visit with her, I think, but Mary Queen of Scots was0.97
00:11:47.260living like doing queen shit and they were off kind of just being there if needed. But they0.90
00:11:53.180learned French, they learned calligraphy, like they had schooling and training and stuff while
00:11:56.940they were in France. So the time in France was not as long as anyone expected. So Mary Queen of
00:12:03.440Scots, she married Francis. Francis's dad died. And then Mary Queen of Scots ruled as Queen of
00:12:09.600France until Francis himself died. So this is 1560. So they're all around 18 years old now.
00:12:14.760and at this time also marie de guise um also had died so with no french husband with her mother
00:12:22.920dead mary queen of scots was now like in a place where the best bet for her like the best and kind
00:12:27.260only option was to return to scotland as queen so the four maries french education was completed
00:12:33.540and they were sent to accompany their mistress back to scotland as they had accompanied her to
00:12:38.100france so many years ago and scotland would be the place where the four maries would seek and
00:12:43.840find their own husbands in most cases, as their now widowed queen would seek out a new husband0.99
00:12:49.380for herself. And we're going to go Mary by Mary instead of kind of what happened simultaneously
00:12:55.120with each other, just so we can really focus on who each of these four Marys is. And that was one
00:13:01.200of my first challenges when I was researching this was just to try to, from my own mind,
00:13:05.260figure out kind of how can I think about them? What are the differences between them? And so
00:13:10.120part of this is reading about them. And I would think, okay, which of the four ladies-in-waiting
00:13:15.080on Reign does each of these match up with? And so on Reign, they're not called Mary,1.00
00:13:19.680I think for understandable reasons. It's just like, why would you name five main characters
00:13:25.480all the same thing on a TV show? Of course they gave them different names, but each of the ladies
00:13:30.200in waiting on Reign, which again, if you're new to this podcast is my favorite TV show of all time,
00:13:35.240a perfect show, 10 out of 10, no notes. So they all were given different names. But so I was
00:13:39.900trying to figure out for myself, which of these Marys like in real life inspired, which of the
00:13:43.600ladies in waiting on rain. And then I also started thinking about, you know, kind of the iconicness
00:13:48.040of having a group of four female friends. And there's so many versions of that. Like there's
00:13:54.060the four March sisters and little women. There's the four golden girls on the golden girls.
00:13:59.440Blackpink is the K-pop group. There's four members of that. The sister to the traveling pants,
00:14:04.660There's four of them. And then also, if you combine two of the sisters in Pride and Prejudice,
00:14:10.440there's basically four. If you just kind of treat Lydia and Kitty as all the same person.
00:14:14.580So they all match up. And so just trying to think of them in the term of all those things
00:14:19.680helped me keep them straight. And I don't know which of those references which of you were going
00:14:23.120to vibe with. So I'll just give you them all so you can kind of imagine. So the first person we're
00:14:28.840talking about is Mary Livingston. So the character on Rain, who she inspired, and I was kind of proud
00:14:35.680of myself because I would guess and then I would look in the Rain wiki and I'm like, haha, I was
00:14:39.140right. So the one who she inspired was Kenna on Rain, who if you remember, she was the, I don't
00:14:45.020know, she's kind of the most sexy of all of them on Rain. She was sort of also very, she could be
00:14:52.440impetuous. She just had a real sort of vitality about her and a real just flirtatiousness.
00:14:58.840And so I was thinking Mary Livingston, if she was one of the sisters in Pride and Prejudice,0.88
00:15:03.220she would be Lydia mixed with Kitty because Kitty is kind of an appendage of Lydia.
00:15:08.380If she was in Little Women, Mary Livingston would be Amy.1.00
00:15:12.020If Mary Livingston was in Golden Girls, she would be Blanche.1.00
00:15:15.800And if she was in Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, I would say Bridget because she was0.96
00:15:19.500really full of life and energy and real vivacity.
00:15:24.100And that's part of why I also think if she was in Blackpink, she would be Lisa.
00:15:28.540She's got that same sort of energy about her. And also, Lisa is the main dancer in Blackpink.
00:15:33.760And Mary Livingston, we don't know a lot about her, but we do know that she was really into
00:15:37.280dancing. So that's who we're looking at. Kenna, Lisa, Lydia Kitty, Amy Blanche, Bridget from the
00:15:44.640Traveling Pants. That's Mary Livingston. So Mary Livingston was born around 1541, the daughter of
00:15:50.920Alexander Livingston, the fifth Lord Livingston, and his second wife, Agnes Douglas, a daughter of
00:15:56.920John Douglas, the second Earl of Morton. So you're all saying it, a Douglas. So she's interestingly,
00:16:04.180she's got these Douglas connections, although she was always loyal to Mary herself, despite
00:16:08.920having some Douglas in her. We know that the Douglasists were often, except for with a few
00:16:16.020exceptions, pretty shitty to Mary overall. But you know what? Some of the Douglasists were good.0.97
00:16:20.760Hashtag not all Douglasists. Young Willie was a Douglas. Anyway, Mary Livingston. So her father0.89
00:16:25.980Alexander was also Mary Queen of Scots's guardian. Her younger sister Magdalene Livingston was a
00:16:31.460maid of honor to marry Queen of Scots. And so I don't have the specific numbers, but I do know
00:16:36.000that Mary Queen of Scots, like if there's her at the middle of this circle, the outer layer,
00:16:40.600like her confidants were the Marys, the four of them. And then there's another outer circle,
00:16:45.160like they were the ladies in waiting, but the outer circle is the maid of honor and there's
00:16:48.840more of them. And it's like a less status position, but a lot of, or several of the maid0.87
00:16:53.500of honors seem to have been the sisters of the Marys. So it's, it's not just Mary and these four
00:16:58.700people, it's Mary and this like group of people who are all connected through family ties and
00:17:04.340intermarriage and things. So Mary Livingston arrived with the other Marys in Scotland,
00:17:09.440fabulous and black and white outfits, just like striking a pose in Scotland and all the men in
00:17:15.360Scotland who, as far as I can tell, we're all approximately 40 years old. We're all just like,
00:17:20.400what is this? Who are these cool young teens? Because they were all 18 at the time-ish.
00:17:27.140So Mary Livingston and the others, they arrived bringing youthful, fun, party atmosphere. Like
00:17:32.600Scotland, if you'll recall, had been in the midst of this reformation for quite a while. John Knox
00:17:38.220screaming at everybody, calling everybody whores. There had been, you know, the asshole lords have1.00
00:17:45.080been turning against Marie of Guise. Like it's just, everyone's been at war constantly. Like0.99
00:17:49.420all these men they're all called james they're signing paperwork it's just like they've all0.90
00:17:52.640been through a lot of shit and then the marys arrive and it's just like oh my gosh they're0.89
00:17:56.500glamorous they're beautiful look at these outfits like look at this fun energy if we're talking0.98
00:18:00.900about like what rain got historically accurate like the way the rain dealt with mary going to
00:18:06.340scotland she only had one lady in waiting with her at that point on the show but if you think
00:18:10.480about the very first season one episode one of rain where it shows them arriving in france which
00:18:15.480is, they kind of just changed facts around a little bit to have it happen that way. Anyway,
00:18:20.900whatever, rain, no problems, 10 out of 10, no notes. They come on the scene, the Marys,
00:18:25.160and there's a scene where they're all getting ready for this party and they're doing each
00:18:27.840other's hair and makeup. And then they go to the party and they're dancing and everyone
00:18:31.020is just like, who are these people? Like, what is this fun energy these people are bringing
00:18:34.840to this like really, you know, straight laced royal court. And that's the vibe. Like they
00:18:39.020just brought fun to a place that had been just in war constantly this whole time. So
00:18:44.960John Knox hated her. He hated all of them. He hated Mary, Queen of Scots. He hated anyone
00:18:49.720called Mary, apparently. He focused his attention on the four Marys because he was hopeful that if0.99
00:18:55.300there's scandal around them, he could use that to badmouth Mary, Queen of Scots by being like,0.99
00:18:59.660look at these shitty people she hangs out with. So for instance, early on in Mary's time in0.97
00:19:04.680Scotland, a French woman who served Mary, so one of the, not one of the Marys, but like a more
00:19:10.060outer circle person, became pregnant by the queen's apothecary and the two of them. I'm not0.74
00:19:16.620sure exactly if they conspired to have an abortion or if like the baby was born and then they killed
00:19:21.860the baby. I'm getting this information via John Knox, who's not a reliable source of information,
00:19:26.880but we do know something happened with this French woman and with the apothecary. We know
00:19:30.440pregnancy was involved and both the man and the woman were hanged for this that they had done.1.00
00:19:35.780And in fact, so John Knox was just like, look at these slutty whores who are around Mary1.00
00:27:13.440People are just always in and out of jail at this point.1.00
00:27:15.680Mary Livingston outlived her husband as a widow in January 1582.1.00
00:27:20.380she brought legal action against her father-in-law over the possession of some lands.0.66
00:27:24.960After last week's or last time's best of hard work episode, I'm just always here for a woman0.99
00:27:28.760taking a man to court. Mary Livingston, though she died that same year, she was aged around 39.0.98
00:27:35.080And this was about five years before the execution of Mary Queen of Scots. And she had some children
00:27:41.740who included Sir James Semple, who became a Scottish ambassador to England from 1591 to 1600.
00:27:48.360so the next mary we're talking about is mary fleming and this one is not as hard to deduce
00:27:55.000which of the ladies in waiting in rain was inspired by her because her last name is fleming
00:27:59.040and one of the ladies in waiting on rain is called lola fleming so the thing with mary fleming
00:28:04.560is that she was the most beautiful of the marys like the marys were uniformly beautiful i think
00:28:10.840it's the sort of thing especially as a group they were beautiful but among them everyone kind of
00:28:16.580agreed mary fleming was the most beautiful so in that sense if we're looking at like sort of like
00:28:22.460this classically like in a group of four the one who provides the visual now i want to say all the
00:28:29.020members of blackpink are gorgeous obviously but officially jisoo's role is visual so she's there
00:28:35.820like mary fleming is providing the visual mary livingston is the dancer but they're both gorgeous
00:28:41.500if we're looking at on golden girls i think she's like rose who again you know i don't think any of
00:28:47.760the golden girls are prettier or less pretty than the others but just kind of like the gentle soft
00:28:51.700nice one which is why i would ascribe her to jane bennett in prime prejudice and meg march1.00
00:28:57.120in little women so mary fleming is the pretty one um and sister to the traveling pants that would be0.96
00:29:03.160um lena the one played by alexis bladel in the movies so mary fleming was also she's not just0.98
00:29:10.340beautiful, or maybe this is why she was beautiful. She was a cousin of Mary Queen of Scots, as I
00:29:15.740mentioned before. So she has this royal blood in her. So she was the youngest child of Malcolm
00:29:21.760Fleming, the third Lord Fleming, and Lady Janet Stewart. So her mother, Janet, was an illegitimate0.86
00:29:28.220daughter of James IV of Scotland, Mary Queen of Scots' grandfather, Margaret Tudor's husband.
00:29:35.420So Janet was also named governess to baby Mary.
00:29:38.660Mary Fleming was born the same year as Mary Queen of Scots.
00:29:42.280And Janet Fleming was chosen to be, well, she was a governess.
00:29:46.180And then Mary Fleming became one of the baby Queen's baby companions because they were also cousins.
00:29:52.080Janet Fleming, who we talked about in one of the Mary Queen of Scots episodes.
00:29:56.180Yes, she's the one who went over and became mistress to the King of France and had an illegitimate child with him and then was kicked out of French court.0.65
00:30:04.080That was her. I feel like they took some of her story for Kenna on rain. But so Antonia Frazier
00:30:10.480in her biography, she suggests that Mary Fleming was probably Mary, you know, Scott's closest
00:30:15.640friend because they were cousins. They were all like very well-off, you know, powerful young
00:30:23.680women of the era. But Mary Fleming being like part royal, I think maybe she could get Mary in
00:30:28.680a way that the other ones couldn't. So the same year that Mary Fleming was born, her father was
00:30:32.420taken prisoner by the English at the Battle of Solway Moss. Like all four of the Marys had had
00:30:37.160like some real stressful situations by the time they were five. Like all of their families,
00:30:42.560like because they were in Scotland where it was just like constant war. So like all of the men
00:30:46.980were fighting on one side or the other of the war and often taken prisoner and stuff. Anyway,
00:30:51.560so 1548, Mary Fleming, five years old. Mary Queen of Scots, five years old. Janet, adult aged,
00:30:57.340super sexy and they went over to the court of king henry ii of france so mary queen of scots
00:31:03.360again separated from the marys i will note that mary fleming's father had died the previous years
00:31:08.800when she was four so her father was taken prisoner the year she was born and then he died when she
00:31:13.080was four at the battle of pinky her mother had this affair with the french king and the product
00:31:18.240of which was a son henry d'angélême who was born around 1551 and then her mother was kicked out so
00:31:24.520that's a lot for mary fleming to go through blank like as a very young person but i feel like
00:31:30.500everyone's life was kind of high key in that way so i'm sure american scots could understand maybe
00:31:36.860help her out with it so in 1554 so while they're all in france like this is proof that they did
00:31:42.720get to hang out sometimes so there was a mask um performed in france mary fleming had a major role
00:31:50.500in it, I think maybe because of her noble roots and maybe because of her beauty. So when they
00:31:56.620returned to Scotland, do you remember there's a thing? So one of the people who came back with
00:32:01.880her from France to Scotland was this poet called Pierre Chastelard, who was like kind of Mary
00:32:08.200Queen of Scots a stalker and he like hid in her bedroom and stuff. So after that, Mary Queen of
00:32:13.480Scots was obviously freaked out and panicked and scared. And so she had Mary Fleming was the one
00:32:18.300who she called for and who would join her and like be her roommate and stay in the room with
00:32:22.040her to make her feel better. So that also speaks to her seeing Mary Fleming as kind of her
00:32:25.920closest friend, her bestie of all the besties. And May 26, 1562, the four Marys attended the
00:32:35.540Queen at the ceremony of the opening of the Parliament of Scotland. Randy Randolph watched
00:32:40.700them. He described the processions, quote, four virgins, maids, Marys, demoiselles of honor,
00:32:46.840or the queen's mignons call them as please your honor but a fairer sight was never seen
00:32:51.880like every man at royal court was 40 years old and just like horny for these marys is what was
00:32:59.060happening and the marys were super hot and that's what was going on so during the 12th day of
00:33:04.340christmas pageant in january 1564 mary fleming played the part of the queen of the bean and we
00:33:10.800talked about this i think before and there was a memorable episode of rain where there was a queen
00:33:14.600of the bean that's where there's the cake and whoever gets the slice of cake with the bean in
00:33:19.560it gets treated as queen for the day mary fleming in this instance got that and so she got see randy1.00
00:33:25.940randolph wrote about her at this mary fleming was the great beauty of the marys she had royal blood
00:33:30.940where the others had not and was the most beautiful as well not randy but another person who saw her
00:33:35.540wrote about her as the flower of the flock so here's randy explaining her outfit the queen of
00:33:42.020the bean was that day in a gown of cloth of silver her head her neck her shoulders the rest of her
00:33:46.360body so beset with stones that more in our whole jewel house were not to be found so she i'm in
00:33:51.940some sort of like diamond encrusted cat suit like in britney spears toxic music video i'm sure it's
00:33:58.180not that but it would be that effect but you know non-see-through dress form randy continues the
00:34:03.320queen herself that day appareled in colors white and black no neither jewel or gold about her that
00:34:07.820day but the ring i brought her from queen elizabeth hanging at her breast with a lace of
00:34:11.600black and white about her neck so mary is wearing her trademark black and white mary fleming is like
00:34:17.240a disco ball practically and also extremely beautiful so william kirk keldy of grange
00:34:22.940who's a guy who just like comes up here and there in this whole saga but not enough like gave him a
00:34:27.560nickname but enough that like his name is memorable so he september 1564 was the one who wrote that
00:34:34.300the royal secretary, William Maitland, aka Scottish Machiavelli, from numerous episodes
00:34:41.620of the Mary Queen Scots series, was showing an interest in Mary Fleming. And William Kirkcaldy
00:34:47.140wrote, I doubt not, but you understand me by now that our secretary's wife is near dead and he is
00:34:53.300a suitor to Mrs. Fleming, who is as fit for him as I am to be Pope, because she was gorgeous and
00:34:58.920he was old. Scottish Machiavelli was, he was smitten. He told his friend, William Cecil,
00:35:05.740that just being around Mary Fleming brought him at least one merry hour in the day.
00:35:10.120Their age difference for the record. He was 36 and she was 22. So he's, you know, slightly younger
00:35:17.160than the 40 year old men, but just slightly. Anyway, Randy said, wise as he is, he will show
00:35:22.940himself a fool the way he carried on with his crush on Mary Fleming. So clearly she was like,0.98
00:35:27.620so cool so hot Scottish Machiavelli is just this like big old nerd comparatively but she was into0.97
00:35:34.820it and Mary Queen of Scots was like I could use this match like okay I'll allow it so when it
00:35:40.680became clear like these two were gonna get married so this was like a three-year courtship which was
00:35:45.660the talk of the English and Scottish courts because Scottish Machiavelli was such an important
00:35:49.060person Mary Fleming was so close to the queen and she had royal blood as well Randy was cranky
00:35:54.820clearly jealous. He wrote that Scottish Machiavelli had been pushed out of the center
00:36:00.320of political affairs in order to have the time to make love to his coy mistress, Mary Fleming.
00:36:05.560So this was during the Rizzio era when Scottish Machiavelli was in fact pushed aside so the queen
00:36:11.800could have an actually helpful person as her secretary who wasn't actively trying to betray
00:36:15.940her. So Mary Fleming did wind up marrying Scottish Machiavelli in a ceremony at Stirling
00:36:20.960Kessel on January 6th, 1566. They did not have a honeymoon because he had to leave town right
00:36:26.900away to go to that conference where he, Hollywood icon, Jimmy Stewart, Bothwell, and 75 men named
00:36:32.300James all signed paperwork being like, let's work together to murder Darnley. Great. Thanks. We're
00:36:37.980all going to do this. Here's the paperwork saying we're going to do this. So it's quite a fraught
00:36:42.800time. And this is where it gets really interesting actually, because Mary Fleming, Mary Queen of
00:36:47.340Scott's closest friend, her cousin, marries this guy who is Scottish Machiavelli. He's like,
00:36:52.400sometimes on Mary's side, often not on Mary's side. Like, where does this leave Mary Fleming
00:36:56.720in this scenario? And where it leaves her might surprise you. This is where I do want to mention
00:37:01.720on Rain. There is a plot line where Lola, the character who's inspired by Mary Fleming,
00:37:08.220gets involved with a guy named Narcisse, who is amazing on Rain. He's such a camp,
00:37:13.420amazing character he's so villainous like it's a great character and unexpectedly he and Lola
00:37:20.160Fleming on Rain they kind of hit it off and they're both just kind of like scheming and sexy
00:37:24.880she just takes a lot of sexy baths um and he like keeps walking in on her being like no we can't be
00:37:30.280together and she's like we should be together he's like no we can't and that's kind of what the vibe
00:37:34.540is honestly between Mary Fleming and Scottish Machiavelli here so I was messaging with my
00:37:39.960friend and tits of brigade member isabel who was as into rain as i was we both wrote these recaps
00:37:46.520for it for a fashion website at the time and isabel mentioned she wants recognition always
00:37:51.420for young women who weren't taken advantage of by old men but gamed them back and became a sneaky af
00:37:56.580couple and that's the vibe of mary fleming and scottish machiavelli it's not just like oh no
00:38:02.640like scottish machiavelli is taking advantage of this poor woman like this poor naive woman like0.97
00:38:08.580mary fleming had been through shit by the time she was five years old like she her mother had0.99
00:38:13.600an affair with a french king like she has her illegitimate half-brother is like a nobleman0.98
00:38:17.860in france like she's she's on top of things like she is also scheming she's also like at his level
00:38:25.440i would say and that's what we're going to see as the relationship progresses like he's not
00:38:29.120okay we'll just go through kind of what all the steps are here and they're interesting and
00:38:34.360intriguing relationship in which i would argue she's almost a lady mcbeth type figure like just
00:38:38.980subtly manipulating him to the point where eventually he's just doing whatever she says0.51
00:38:42.460although i'm sure he thinks he's manipulating her but in fact she was always in charge0.81
00:38:47.120so like everything that happened there was shitty scosh mcfile was on the shitty side of it he was0.92
00:38:53.080on the side of like rizzio being murdered he was on the side of blowing up darnley's house0.86
00:38:57.300he was like one of the people who was like complicit in convincing mary to marry bothwell
00:39:02.820he was one of the people who like he was never on a good side of anything while he was also married
00:39:08.460to mary's best friend so it's like what is this situation what is this relationship so but first
00:39:14.820i do also want to mention mary fleming's sister who is also one of the associated people in the
00:39:20.660royal court was margaret who is the witch who i mentioned she was there when mary queen of scots0.63
00:39:25.560was giving birth margaret fleming was brought in to transfer the labor pains from mary queen of0.95
00:39:30.080scots into somebody else which didn't work but she was a witch and i'm not going to talk too much
00:39:34.260about her right now because perhaps i will talk about her in more depth closer to halloween
00:39:38.960wait and see anyway so yes gosh machiavelli complicit in getting queen mary to mary bothwell
00:39:45.600mary fleming might have helped in that instance to try and persuade her as well like mary fleming
00:39:51.940loyal to mary queen of scots i think like undoubtedly her whole life was dedicated to
00:39:57.720serving Mary Queen of Scots. So it might've been, she felt like this is maybe the best option for
00:40:01.820her at the time. So it's not just like, ha ha, let's trick her. Like Scottish Machiavelli was
00:40:05.560like, ha ha, let's trick her into marrying Bothwell because then I, Scottish Machiavelli can get more
00:40:09.620power. And he always wanted to like ally with England, I think. So Mary Fleming was certainly
00:40:14.780aware of these schemes and was maybe helping with these schemes. Like when Mary Queen of Scots was
00:40:19.280taken captive at that castle, Mary Fleming was the only one of the Marys who waited on her there0.70
00:40:24.420at Dunbar, where Mary Queen of Scots was being held prison by Bothwell. So that's where she was
00:40:28.320like, Mary Fleming is, she's in on the scheme. I don't want to be like, she wasn't in on this.
00:40:33.480She was, but it's kind of like no one knew how this was going to shake out really. But ultimately,
00:40:38.540by the time Mary Queen of Scots was in prison, like in, like taken by the Confederate asshole0.98
00:40:43.540lords, Mary Fleming's influence seems clear because Scottish Machiavelli fully switched sides.0.97
00:40:49.260He was remorseful for what he had done. He showed remorse for his actions and he set the rest of his
00:40:55.200life to being on team Mary Queen of Scots. Like Mary Fleming manipulated him right back. Like
00:41:01.880this is where I feel like she wasn't just some sort of little naive younger woman. 22 to 36 is
00:41:06.960a substantial age gap. In the pantheon of vulgar history, it's not that much. But also Mary Fleming
00:41:13.340clearly had a real good head on her shoulders here. So she had a son. Well, her first child
00:41:17.640was a son named James after I think Mary Queen of Scots's son James and this baby was born around
00:41:22.880the same time Mary was being imprisoned and the casket letters scenario was happening. So there's
00:41:28.040all these rumors like I'm not gonna get into the casket letters of it all just like know that there0.99
00:41:34.000were these letters and some they were clearly not written by Mary Queen of Scots but the asshole0.97
00:41:38.440Lord said that they were. So who wrote these? The handwriting apparently looked like hers but all0.96
00:41:43.020the Marys had had the same handwriting tutor. So there's some people who think like, was
00:41:47.460Mary Fleming one of the people who helped write these forged letters because she was married to
00:41:52.060Scottish Machiavelli, but they were all on Mary's side. And frankly, Scottish Machiavelli later did
00:41:56.900admit he, when he was a secretary, he had sometimes forged the Queen's handwriting. So like he also
00:42:01.460could, like Mary Queen Scots said herself, like my handwriting is really basic. Lots of people
00:42:06.400could copy it. And nevermind like Walsingham is on the scene. Anyway, so Mary Queen Scots is in
00:42:11.560Loch Leven in prison, March 1568, Scottish Machiavelli sent her a ring that was apparently
00:42:17.560a gift from Mary Fleming. So it was enameled with a lion and a mouse from Aesop's fable.
00:42:23.480So there's so much animal imagery in all of these episodes. And I know I mentioned this before,
00:42:28.620but I'll just remind you now that we know more about who Mary Fleming is. So the imagery in
00:42:33.340this might have meant like the mouse represents Scottish Machiavelli, who was gnawing away at a
00:42:37.980net surrounding the lion who represents Mary Queen of Scots. So seemingly this ring symbolism
00:42:44.080was showing the Scottish Machiavelli is trying to help, which he was. So Mary Fleming seems like
00:42:49.600was really placing him under pressure to help with Queen Mary Queen of Scots's release. And he was
00:42:55.820doing it. Like she knew that this was what needed to happen. And he was on board with what she was
00:43:02.820suggesting. So it's all really schemey and complicated. Like I don't, I'm not trying to
00:43:08.140say like Mary Fleming was this like perfect sainted person. Like I think she was a scheming
00:43:12.220badass simultaneous to being loyal to Mary. And she was working really hard, like, and she has
00:43:18.160this really influential family. So like with her family's backing, like the Flemings, you know,
00:43:23.720that's a lot of people who would be there to support, to go to war basically. But then0.59
00:43:28.120Scottish Machiavelli is also politically motivated to try and provide the evidence to discredit her
00:43:33.120in the form of the casket letters. When Mary Queen of Scots was in England, Scottish Machiavelli was
00:43:38.180one of the people who was trying to help her marriage to T-Dog, that potential treason marriage
00:43:43.940that she was going to do. While simultaneously, he was also, he was like a spokesman for her
00:43:49.320restoration as queen in Scotland. He had the support of the Flemings, also the Gordons,0.95
00:43:54.800that's a cock of the north family the hamiltons aka the babysitters club he was also supporting
00:43:59.620t-dog against william sesal like he's playing all the angles and all the sides um on october 11th
00:44:06.120he was able to send mary fleming to mary queen of scots with a transcript of one of the casket
00:44:11.260letters and that was the whole thing mary queen of scots just wanted to read the casket letters
00:44:14.560and no one will let her read them mary fleming also brought along a note where scottish machiavelli
00:44:18.340was offering his assistance to combat this evidence which he had maybe produced mary queen
00:44:24.100Scots was sensibly like, thanks, but no thanks. Like your husband sucks, but I love you, Mary0.99
00:44:29.000Fleming. Like, nice to see you. Okay. So Mary Kay Scots, she's in England for 19 years, during1.00
00:44:35.520which time Hollywood icon, Jimmy Stewart was regent and then he was assassinated. Eventually
00:44:40.580Jeremy Jam from Parks and Recreation took over to become the new regent. Everybody hated him.
00:44:46.180Scottish Machiavelli hated him. They were huge enemies of each other. Scottish Machiavelli though
00:44:51.760had been ill for quite a while. He had some sort of creeping paralysis, like his legs, like just
00:44:57.760slowly more and more of him was becoming paralyzed. I don't know what disease or condition that is.
00:45:03.780Randy, Randy Randolph is still like messy drama queen living for drama. Like, thank God writing
00:45:09.880us all these letters about what was going on. By 1570, he wrote the Scottish Machiavelli's legs
00:45:15.440were clean gone, like he couldn't use them. His body was so weak he could not walk, even to sneeze
00:45:20.540caused extreme pain um randy was still not over him stealing mary fleming allegedly from him so1.00
00:45:27.520he wrote to this hath blessed joy of a young wife brought him so he's just being like fuck you you0.99
00:45:32.580stole my girlfriend i hate you anyway but yeah so they're firmly on team let's reinstate mary as0.98
00:45:38.780the queen so scottish machiavelli and mary fleming were both in edinburgh castle in 1573
00:45:43.800when it was held by supporters of mary queen of scots against an english army supporting the
00:45:48.320government of James. Well, I mean, baby BJ, basically. So they were both captured when the
00:45:54.820castle was surrounded. She was surrendered to, at this point, the regent. Yeah, Jeremy Jam,
00:46:00.140still the regent. She was kept a prisoner in Robert Gourlay's house. At this time,
00:46:04.360Scottish Machiavelli was carried out of the castle on a litter because he was unable to
00:46:07.900stand or walk. And eventually he died a month later in June. He had been found dead in his bed
00:46:13.760where he was being kept under house arrest. And it was assumed he took poison to kill himself
00:46:18.020in quote, the Roman fashion. So that Cleopatra, Mark Anthony vibes, like he would rather die by
00:46:24.480his own hand than be executed. So he was age 45 and he was left unburied, which was the usual
00:46:31.120thing for traitors, which he technically was. It was described, I think in the Antonio Fraser book,
00:46:38.000his body became a feasting ground for maggots. So do you remember in the earlier episode,
00:46:44.040the whole thing with the cock over the north scenario where he died and then they like took0.54
00:46:49.160his body and then like propped his body up in parliament and like put his like dead corpse on0.99
00:46:52.900trial. Like I think they were gearing up for that sort of thing. So Mary Fleming wrote a moving
00:46:57.280personal plea to William Sassel, who had been friends with Scottish Machiavelli. She said her
00:47:01.340body of her husband, quote, which one alive has not been spared in her highness service may now
00:47:06.260after his death receive no shame or ignominy. And so William Sassel was like, this is a well-written
00:47:11.000letter handwriting looks suspiciously like mary queen of scots but whatever so he got queen0.98
00:47:15.880elizabeth to read it and queen elizabeth was like fuck this scottish thing about like putting bodies0.98
00:47:21.160on trial like this is not cool please bury this man and so they did again the jewels of it all0.96
00:47:27.180so twice i think that same year 1573 yeah mary fleming was ordered to return some jewelry of
00:47:34.440rubies and diamonds which had belonged to mary queen of scots i don't know if she did but just0.96
00:47:39.320like these assholes are just trying to get touched on all these jewels of people. Talk0.99
00:47:42.760that Mary gave to people legitimately. Anyway, eventually Scarish Machiavelli's estates and
00:47:47.940properties were restored by grant of King James, baby BJ. And then she and her son were granted a
00:47:54.380restoration or rehabilitation. So they were no longer seen as traitors, the wife or son of a
00:47:58.520traitor. And she was allowed the benefit of a property that Scarish Machiavelli had given her
00:48:02.900Bolton in East Lothian. So her son, James, we're going to hear about in a bit, just something
00:48:09.300else he did. He later became a Catholic and lived in France and Belgium in self-imposed exile. And
00:48:14.500she had a daughter who she named Margaret. In 1581, Mary Queen of Scots asked Elizabeth for0.94
00:48:20.060permission for Mary Fleming to come and visit her, but there's no evidence that Mary Fleming
00:48:25.460went. So maybe she didn't get permission. She did marry again, someone called George Meldrum of
00:48:30.700Fivey. And she died aged around 39, 1581, about four years after the execution of Mary Queen of
00:48:37.900scots and now we're just going to take a break for a word from our sponsors the war is over and both
00:48:46.160sides lost kingdoms were reduced to cinders and armies scattered like bones in the dust
00:48:52.460now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world praying the darkness chooses someone else
00:48:59.520tonight but in the shadow dark the darkness always wins this is old school adventuring
01:21:10.580And because we know that Mary Seton was involved in like helping Mary Wisconsin escape from prison, which is inherently scheming, whatever her role was in coming up with this game, she helped pull it off.
01:21:22.800And this is one where I was just like, not sure.
01:21:24.860I actually turned to, so people who join my Patreon at at least $5 or more a month get access to a Discord, which is basically just a big group chat where we're just like talking shit about John Knox all the time.
01:21:37.560but also you know i i go there for when i have questions and i was like y'all i'm doing this
01:21:43.140episode about the four marys and what is their significance like i love them too much i can't
01:21:47.360i can't decide like what is their significance like when you think okay when i think about
01:21:52.560mary queen of scots like it's her and there's the four the four marys like on rain it's like
01:21:58.240there's mary and there's the marys like and then 2018 saoirse ronan movie it's like there's mary
01:22:03.040and there's the Marys. Like her having these like backup dancers slash singers is part of her myth
01:22:08.360and legend, but the Marys themselves, are they significant? Of them, I think Mary Seton is
01:22:14.400significant in the sense of without her, perhaps Mary Queen of Scots wouldn't have escaped Lock
01:22:19.780Leaven, which was an important part of her story. I think they were significant to Mary for just
01:22:24.920like having at least one of them with her all the time, just kind of helped her out mental health
01:22:29.240wise like mary was so known for her fashion mary seaton was involved in that but also the four of1.00
01:22:34.620them like mary crevis got showing up in the black and the white outfits was emphasized by having the
01:22:39.160four mary's with her but that's just like they're not just accessories it's tricky it's tricky i'm
01:22:44.880gonna give them a four for certificates one for each of them because i like them all a lot the
01:22:50.760sexism bonus is where we give points for people who maybe could have accomplished more were it
01:22:55.520not for sexism. I do want to say, when I was doing the Best of Hardwick episode two weeks ago,
01:23:00.500I gave her, I think, a four for sexism. And I know some of you like to play along at home.
01:23:04.800So I do want to make clear, in very rare cases, people do get less than five for sexism. Early
01:23:10.480on in the show, I would say, you know, everyone gets at least a five because the patriarchy is0.96
01:23:14.360just everywhere and it's shitty. Best of Hardwick, I gave four because she made the patriarchy her0.77
01:23:19.460bitch. Like how much more could she have accomplished without sexism? Like how much1.00
01:23:22.920more could she've accomplished at all she accomplished everything like sexism didn't
01:23:26.060really get in her way other people who have had lower than five on sexism again it's just a few0.62
01:23:31.000people it's like empress cc got less because she wasn't i forget what her rationale was exactly
01:23:35.800but i don't think that sexism was necessarily what got in her way lola montez also i think got1.00
01:23:41.700less than five on sexism because that didn't stop her like some women if i ever do elizabeth the
01:23:47.700first i feel like sexism didn't stop her in fact it helped her so but in terms of sexism i'm gonna
01:23:52.580give them that like the general standard score of five because all of them like maybe they could
01:23:57.960have done more if they hadn't had to find a husband not that mary seton did get married but
01:24:02.760like i don't know i i think that the fact that they went to scotland and all of these like 400.99
01:24:08.620year old men were just drooling over them or like calling them whores all the time sucks and they0.93
01:24:12.960could have had much more fun if that wasn't happening to them so altogether this is a score0.97
01:24:16.980of 18, which in terms of this podcast is pretty low because I tend to talk about really scandalous
01:24:23.960people. In fact, that is the second lowest score anyone has ever gotten ever, but that's where
01:24:28.980they land because I talk a lot about royals and stuff and they're able to get away with more shit0.96
01:24:35.960than non-royals, but also we know about them. So the fact we know about the Marys at all is0.95
01:24:41.420impressive because it's kind of like the season we did a Jean Gordon episode or even the Elizabeth
01:24:46.300the Valois episode, just people who are living more kind of like standard issue life for this
01:24:52.300era. I like to look at them too, partially because it shows how people like Mary Queen of Scots are
01:24:57.040set apart, how they're living their lives differently. Or best of hard work is maybe
01:25:00.960a better example of somebody who could have lived a life like that, but she just through her tenacity
01:25:06.040and good luck and things like she was able to make a different sort of life for herself. So
01:25:11.160it's interesting to look at people like the Marys. And also I like, this is kind of the finale for
01:25:15.800the Mary Queen of Scots season because there's been high drama. And this is just kind of like,
01:25:21.520well, here's some nice people who are nice. It's sort of a nice way to sort of chill out.
01:25:25.740Speaking of the Mary Queen of Scots season and this being the last episode of it,
01:25:29.800I do have information that I'm in the early stages of planning a live YouTube stream.
01:25:34.980So sometime in October, I'm going to be doing a YouTube live with Alison Epstein and Lana Wood
01:25:41.580Johnson. We're going to do a live episode of Vulgar Peace Theater, which is where the three
01:25:45.860of us talk about costume dramas. And we're going to talk about the much requested 2018 Mary Queen
01:25:51.120of Scots film, which is literally called Mary Queen of Scots. It's the ones starring Saoirse
01:25:55.080Ronan as Mary, Margot Robbie as Elizabeth, Taylor Swift's ex Joe Alwyn as Bobby Duds,
01:26:02.340and David Tennant as John Knox. Lots of people in it. Lots to talk about. I'm really interested
01:26:07.100because I watched that movie in the theater in 2018 when it first came out, when I was just
01:26:10.860kind of like riding on vibes I'm like I know the story of Mary Queen of Scots I have watched Rain
01:26:14.660and I watched it and I was like seems accurate to me but now that I know so much more than I did
01:26:18.660then I think it'll be interesting to watch it especially now that I will maybe kind of know
01:26:22.400more who some of the main characters are anyway the date has not been chosen for that yet I will
01:26:26.420when one is I will announce it here on the podcast so you can all enjoy that I think that can be like
01:26:32.040the true finale of the Mary Queen of Scots season but also we're done talking about Mary Queen of
01:26:37.660Scots, but the podcast continues on. So there's going to be still episodes. There's still going
01:26:42.280to be an episode every week, just so you know. My style in preparing this podcast is when I'm
01:26:49.880reading about a person, I really like to immerse myself in the story. And that's why these podcast
01:26:54.800episodes end up being like two and a half hours long. But I really like, I want to read a biography.
01:26:58.920I want to look at more biographies. I want to look at pictures of them to really sit with it until I
01:27:03.740feel like I know the person and that's where I feel comfortable sharing the story with you.
01:27:08.220That takes time and effort and energy. I'm not able to do that every week, which is why some
01:27:13.840weeks it's going to be not that. So some weeks it will be me sharing a story with you that I've
01:27:17.660researched. Some weeks it's going to be a guest coming on to share a story with me and with you.
01:27:22.860And that's sometimes where I'm just like, I really love this story. But instead of me just
01:27:25.920paraphrasing one person who wrote an academic paper, like I'm going to bring that person on
01:27:30.180so they can explain it like one-on-one to you.
01:27:33.360So sometimes it's going to be me talking.
01:27:34.620Sometimes it's going to be a guest telling a story.
01:27:36.520Sometimes it'll be an author talking about their book coming up