Vulgar History - June 06, 2025


Trans History: The Lieutenant Nun

Giving Credit To History's Disregarded Women Women and Genderqueer People Who Ruled Over Africa

Episode Stats


Harmful content

Misogyny

5

sentences flagged

Toxicity

23

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Hate speech

41

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Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Hello, and welcome to Vulgar History, a feminist women's history comedy podcast.
00:00:18.700 My name is Anne Foster, and this is a Pride Month special. Today, I'm so excited to be able to
00:00:25.260 share with you this conversation I had with Argentine writer Gabriela Cabezón Camara,
00:00:30.980 who is the author of three different novels, the third of which has just been translated into
00:00:35.620 English. The English language title is We Are Green and Trembling. And before I tell you about
00:00:41.060 why you're going to be especially interested in this novel, I want to tell you a bit more
00:00:44.820 about Gabriela. So she is one of the most prominent writers in contemporary Argentine
00:00:51.640 literature. Her novel Las Aventuras de la China Iron from 2017 was a finalist for the International
00:00:58.740 Booker Prize. The Spanish-language version of the book we're talking about today in Spanish is
00:01:03.500 called Las Niñas del Narangel, which won the City of Barcelona Prize for Literature in Spanish,
00:01:10.860 as well as the Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz Prize in Guadalajara. And in addition to her work as a
00:01:16.700 writer. Gabriela is also a passionate LGBTQ plus rights activist and a defender of feminism in the
00:01:23.040 cultural sphere. She defines herself as a socio-environmentalist. And this book, I was so
00:01:29.540 excited when I first heard about it. We Are Green and Trumbling, again, is the English language
00:01:33.520 title. It's just come out in English in a translation by Robin Myers. And this is a
00:01:39.720 literary novel inspired by the life of a person named Antonio de Arauzo. And if you see this
00:01:47.160 name de Arauzo and you're a long-time listener of this podcast, you might remember three
00:01:50.980 hour-long episodes I did a few years ago about a person that I referred to as Catalina de Arauzo.
00:01:57.140 It's the same person. So Antonio de Arauzo is the name that this person had at the end of their
00:02:05.280 life. We're going to talk about it in this episode about the journey from being raised as a girl to
00:02:11.960 choosing to live as a man to being seen as a woman again for a while and then getting permission from
00:02:18.760 the Pope to live life as a man. So this is a person who lived life in a moving back and forth
00:02:26.020 way, sometimes presenting as a woman, sometimes presenting as a man. By the end of their life,
00:02:32.020 the name they were going by was Antonio de Arraso. And that's the name that Gabriella uses
00:02:37.140 in this book. Gabriella uses the he, him pronouns and the name Antonio de Arraso. If you want to
00:02:43.240 hear the Vulgar History episodes about this person, I used she, her pronouns, and I talked
00:02:47.580 about Catalina de Arraso. And it's all the same person who is just this messy ass person who was 0.94
00:02:55.240 from the Basque region of Spain, came over to South America during the period of the conquest 1.00
00:03:01.540 of the Americas was just kind of a dirtbag going around just like stabbing people for reasons like
00:03:07.160 someone sat in front of him in a theater, the person's hat was too big. So Antonio stabbed him, 0.97
00:03:12.560 getting into arguments over card games, and then eventually joining the army and then
00:03:17.720 becoming complicit in the genocide of the indigenous people of some Latin American
00:03:23.380 countries and just this weird singular figure in history and I was so fascinated by the saga
00:03:31.920 of Antonio de Arauzo slash Catalina de Arauzo when I first encountered it and I was so excited
00:03:37.360 to see that there is a novel about this person and it's such a good book by Gabriela Capizón
00:03:43.160 Camara and so in this conversation we talk about her inspiration for this book how she connects
00:03:51.980 the story of Antonio de Arrazo with environmentalism and with indigenous environmentalism and culture.
00:04:00.120 I had such a good time talking with her. I do want to just let you know, English is like she's
00:04:04.840 an Argentine writer. Obviously, Spanish is her first language. We're both speaking in English.
00:04:11.160 And I'm just really excited that you can hear this conversation. I think it's a really important
00:04:15.200 book. And I think she's such an important writer. And I'm so happy to be able to share this
00:04:21.080 conversation with you with Gabriela Cabezon-Camara. So welcome Gabriela Cabezon-Camara, author of We
00:04:32.380 Are Green and Trembling. Thank you so much for talking to me today. Thank you so much for talking
00:04:38.180 to me today. I love your book so I'm happy to talk to you about about your book and my first
00:04:47.580 question is, can you explain who was Antonio de Arauzo? Okay, I think I can explain it
00:04:57.180 in some sense. You can never explain nobody completely. But he was born a girl
00:05:11.380 at the end of
00:05:13.580 16th century
00:05:15.280 and when he was
00:05:17.740 very, very, very young
00:05:19.360 almost a baby
00:05:20.980 he was sent to a convent 0.97
00:05:23.420 in those years, nobility
00:05:25.540 didn't love even
00:05:27.580 their children
00:05:28.520 they sent their own kid
00:05:31.400 four years old
00:05:33.080 to a convent to live away from them
00:05:35.580 and there in the convent
00:05:37.540 there was
00:05:38.640 Antonia's aunt
00:05:40.520 who was a nun and he in those years she grew up with her aunt in the convent and when she was 15
00:05:53.800 one day she found the keys to open the convent door and she went away and she became a man in
00:06:04.900 three days and three nights. Like Jesus Christ took three days and three nights to go to heaven
00:06:11.520 and she didn't go to heaven. She became a he and went to the world. And I like to think 0.89
00:06:19.260 about that moment, no? When a young, very, very young woman decides to go to the world
00:06:27.200 and to become a man.
00:06:29.820 He was very, very brave, a brave person.
00:06:34.340 And then this man, this very young man,
00:06:39.000 manages to have a life in Spain and later in America.
00:06:44.740 And he becomes, he's brave, but he's a murderer also.
00:06:51.800 he has a very deep sense of honor and he likes to play cards for money and honor and play cards for
00:07:06.060 money that's not a good combination because people want to play cards for money gets mad
00:07:12.600 and and says horrible things on each other and those horrible things were honor
00:07:18.640 or offending, offendant, usually.
00:07:24.780 So he starts this kind of crazy life in America,
00:07:32.880 in Latin America, from Peru to the north of Argentina.
00:07:37.200 And this kind of crazy life that he goes to a city
00:07:41.560 and everything is okay, but one day he goes to play cards 1.00
00:07:45.420 And someone tells him, you faggot, shut up. 1.00
00:07:49.560 So he goes mad, kills that person. 1.00
00:07:53.440 He goes to jail. 0.96
00:07:54.900 He has to escape from jail.
00:07:57.480 And it goes worse and worse and worse.
00:08:01.320 Like when you see that a little stone falls down from a mountain and that little stone,
00:08:10.280 it becomes a very very big thing because it starts and you can do nothing to stop it and i guess
00:08:18.220 that was his life and at some point he has nowhere to go because he's famous as the murderer
00:08:26.220 and as well he's not a trust he's not someone you can trust and so he ends fighting with the
00:08:37.740 Empire
00:08:39.500 Army
00:08:40.120 he fights
00:08:42.260 in
00:08:42.760 La Guerra
00:08:43.860 de la Araucanía
00:08:44.900 that was
00:08:46.340 the
00:08:46.680 the war
00:08:47.760 they made
00:08:48.160 to the Mapuche 0.95
00:08:48.820 people
00:08:49.240 that they never
00:08:50.080 could win 1.00
00:08:50.900 Mapuche people 0.99
00:08:52.020 is still 0.99
00:08:52.680 fighting
00:08:53.700 and
00:08:55.140 he
00:08:56.500 becomes
00:08:58.220 there
00:08:58.540 something worse
00:08:59.600 than a simple
00:09:00.640 murderer 0.99
00:09:01.120 he is 1.00
00:09:02.260 a genocidal 0.99
00:09:03.340 a 0.70
00:09:04.100 genocidal 0.99
00:09:05.260 murderer 1.00
00:09:06.120 a conqueror
00:09:07.740 And at last, after a lot of adventures, after being in jail, after being saved a minute before, being hanged, after a lot of things, he ends up in the king's court.
00:09:29.120 and the king gives him the right to be a military and that's a lot because it's that that is the
00:09:38.740 right to be a man in those years and he ends up in the pope's court and the pope says that he can
00:09:49.880 use the name he wants to so he it becomes legally a man under the authority
00:09:59.080 and with the blessing of the king and the pope so he's some kind of a brave and murderer
00:10:07.520 crazy picaresque i don't know how to say that in english it's the same in english picaresque yeah
00:10:15.520 It's a picaresque character, a criminal picaresque character, I think.
00:10:22.220 And that's what he was, brave and murderer.
00:10:29.480 Very picaresque.
00:10:30.620 He's always in the Martians, no?
00:10:35.240 He's not a hero.
00:10:37.480 He cannot be an epic hero.
00:10:39.440 Do you remember when you first heard this story of Antonio de Iroso?
00:10:46.220 Yes, I had this girlfriend and she had a lot of paintings in her house.
00:10:55.800 And one of them was this man dressed with an armor.
00:11:04.220 You could see he was clearly a conqueror.
00:11:08.200 And this other man at his feet, and he was killing the other man. 0.79
00:11:16.920 The man that was on the floor was an Indian man.
00:11:21.740 So you understand what it is about, this painting.
00:11:28.780 But the strange thing was that it was written in the painting, La Monja Alferes.
00:11:38.080 That is the lieutenant noun, if it could be translated.
00:11:43.860 and i don't know what i think about nuns but i i don't i don't think they are necessarily good
00:11:52.800 people but i'm sure well i was sure they were not in military and so the the the image became very
00:12:02.600 interesting for me and i started searching information that was before the internet i guess
00:12:12.640 or in the first years so it took me a while to find his autobiography and know about his life
00:12:24.220 but that was the first image and the first thing I knew about him he was a nun that was a military
00:12:33.160 that was a man it's so so many things it's so i imagine seeing that painting how interested
00:12:44.120 you would be to understand this strange this strange situation i want to know who is this
00:12:51.460 man because of course of course i i know who shandark was juana de arco yeah the joan of arc
00:12:59.600 Yeah, Joan of Arc. But Joan of Arc was an epic hero and Antonio isn't.
00:13:09.600 No.
00:13:10.600 We hadn't so much information about him, not in Argentina and other places of Latin America. He is more famous, but not here.
00:13:22.600 Yeah, that was my next question. So in Latin America, how is he remembered? What is his legacy there?
00:13:33.480 It's a controversial legacy because it was a very singular character.
00:13:46.840 He was a very singular character.
00:13:50.760 And, of course, being a nun and becoming later a military was very strange.
00:13:56.660 And being a woman able to do whatever, I don't know, he was not a woman anymore, but well, being able to decide what she wanted to do with her life and to become a man and having the blessing of the king and the pope.
00:14:16.780 Well, it's really, really strange. But he was also an Indian killer. He was a conqueror. So you cannot appreciate him too much. 0.99
00:14:35.760 This is a controversial legacy. He was, you have to respect her, his determination, but he's also a murderer. He kills for stupid things just because he's called stupid or faggot or whatever.
00:14:56.480 uh and and okay he's remembered with all of these uh black and grays and whites it's a complex 1.00
00:15:08.980 figure and there were there made a movie in the 50s in mexico with maria felix maria felix was
00:15:18.960 a great diva of
00:15:21.000 Mexican cinema
00:15:22.660 and they made this
00:15:25.180 diva
00:15:27.600 Monjalférez
00:15:28.540 so
00:15:30.700 that was not him
00:15:34.700 he was not a diva
00:15:37.060 at all
00:15:37.760 so
00:15:40.720 the most
00:15:42.580 famous films
00:15:45.220 that were
00:15:46.540 made about him
00:15:48.320 were not very trustful they were they were sugared they were made
00:15:56.660 for mass consumption in the 50s with that ideology no what what can a woman do she can 0.90
00:16:06.820 disguise a man but she has to fall in love with another one and get married 1.00
00:16:11.020 mm-hmm and maria felix was she reminds me of sophia loren or someone like that she looks very 1.00
00:16:19.300 womanly yes yeah they are grandiose they're that kind of a woman who 1.00
00:16:27.680 from cinema of the 50s they were wow 0.81
00:16:33.000 so very different from antonio who there's a portrait i've seen very masculine presenting
00:16:42.800 very not not beautiful not trying to be beautiful
00:16:47.760 a grumpy man yes he was a not full man yeah with no neck and funny hair yes and i'm very angry
00:17:01.960 face
00:17:03.180 yeah
00:17:04.180 he says
00:17:05.260 okay
00:17:05.640 okay
00:17:06.360 and a
00:17:08.680 knife
00:17:08.980 yeah
00:17:09.540 what do
00:17:12.620 you see
00:17:13.220 today
00:17:14.860 as the
00:17:15.860 legacy of
00:17:16.480 Antonio
00:17:16.960 to 0.82
00:17:17.640 to trans
00:17:19.200 history
00:17:19.660 and to
00:17:20.580 to gay
00:17:21.340 history
00:17:21.940 I guess
00:17:23.980 he is
00:17:25.620 very
00:17:27.160 interesting
00:17:27.660 for trans
00:17:28.360 and gay
00:17:28.680 history
00:17:29.100 because
00:17:29.840 it's
00:17:31.080 a
00:17:31.960 It's an exceptional character, he was an exceptional man, but he was not good, not a good man.
00:17:45.480 And so we have this kind of character that, if you look this side, he shows that we queer
00:17:58.640 people always existed.
00:18:01.960 not something that invented Judith Butler, for instance.
00:18:08.120 No, no, we were.
00:18:09.480 Before, we were always in history.
00:18:11.320 And it's also interesting because you can see with his life
00:18:16.320 that even church had different ways of approaching trans people along history
00:18:25.240 because other trans people were sent to fire, was turned on fire life.
00:18:30.620 but there also
00:18:33.820 there also was Antonio
00:18:35.740 so it's
00:18:36.820 they also appreciated
00:18:40.140 that he wanted to go to
00:18:42.300 good
00:18:45.600 because you are a woman 0.99
00:18:47.980 and you want to become a man
00:18:50.060 you are
00:18:51.140 wishing
00:18:53.400 you are searching for
00:18:55.660 virtuoso
00:18:57.280 virtue
00:18:58.820 You are going to the virtu side of the world. Indeed, if you think about it, virtu and viril and viril and virtu have the same origin. Virtu has always been viril.
00:19:19.500 so he meant well she wanted to reach virtue she wanted to become a man the other way no no no no
00:19:30.280 that would never been forgiven by church but she wanted to become a man she wanted virtue
00:19:37.560 she was a virgin when they they examined her and i am using her here because for at that instance
00:19:46.780 When he was checked by the bishop in Peru, they thought she was a woman.
00:19:57.540 It's later when the judge says, no, no, no, no, this is a man and he can be called Antonio.
00:20:02.500 So it's very interesting.
00:20:04.840 You can see a lot of things in this character.
00:20:09.860 But he's also a conqueror, a criminal. 1.00
00:20:14.540 So I guess it's very interesting to see that, well, you are not a good person because you are gay or trans and you don't have to. You can be so motherfucker as anybody else because you are a human being. 1.00
00:20:33.340 anybody else. And we sometimes forget that we happen to be better. We want to be better. We 1.00
00:20:43.200 wish to be better than that. But some people don't wish to be better. Antonio, I think he didn't wish
00:20:53.920 it. Antonio comes from the Basque region of Spain. So he is different from other Spanish people.
00:21:05.960 Can you talk about that? Yes. When you read his autobiography, you surprise many times because 1.00
00:21:15.180 You read he's running away because he just murdered one people or two people for the most stupid reasons. 1.00
00:21:26.320 And he's running away and they are searching for him. 0.99
00:21:31.100 And he meets a soldier that is also Basque.
00:21:35.360 And the soldier notices he's Basque and says, oh, you are my brother Basque.
00:21:41.860 Oh, yes, I am.
00:21:43.560 And you are my brother Basque. 1.00
00:21:44.760 Okay, I'll save you. And they speak in their language and they help each other always. That is very interesting. They have these strong bonds as people, as a people, as a nation.
00:22:01.720 They really had these bonds of language and culture, and they felt different from other people coming from Spain.
00:22:15.980 I guess that this happened also with Gallegos or Catalanes.
00:22:22.720 No, because how do you build a country?
00:22:27.300 getting together a lot of people
00:22:29.660 from different languages
00:22:31.200 and cultures
00:22:33.740 and if
00:22:35.820 these people stay together
00:22:37.760 for a long
00:22:39.020 they become a country
00:22:40.620 and I think
00:22:43.580 this happened with
00:22:44.720 Spain 1.00
00:22:46.440 not without violence
00:22:48.540 of course
00:22:49.980 and not always in harmony
00:22:52.640 and I
00:22:54.180 well nowadays
00:22:56.360 in Spain and in many places of the world, what was built as a country is being questioned,
00:23:04.840 no? It's being criticized. And there are a lot of people that is not happy with that.
00:23:10.540 So they were something like a country inside another country. And they had the feeling that
00:23:20.100 They had to help each other because the other Spanish people didn't love them as they loved each other, something like that.
00:23:32.720 They were a brotherhood or sisterhood, brotherhood in Antonio's case.
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00:26:07.200 Antonio was lucky many times to find someone, another Basque person.
00:26:14.440 Yes, that is unbelievable.
00:26:17.220 You saw always he needed help, appeared a Basque or a miracle.
00:26:24.060 You cannot believe how lucky he was. 0.92
00:26:26.480 just one step and he's dead hanging of the and whoops the virrey man appears and said no no no
00:26:40.920 free him okay it's unbelievable yeah in your book uh antonio he spends time with the indigenous
00:26:51.380 people, the, I don't know how to say it, the Guarani, how did you research this culture
00:26:58.760 for your book?
00:27:00.400 Well, this is Buenos Aires, where I was born. And Buenos Aires was built in the place where
00:27:12.600 the Paraná River ends and the Rio de la Plata opens. All the system of the Paraná River
00:27:20.800 that is a huge river, very long river that comes from Brazil, from thousands of kilometers
00:27:29.700 in the north, is Guarani land. Paraguay, it's another country in the north here, it's Guarani
00:27:41.700 land. Big pieces of my country are Guarani land, Uruguay, Brazil, parts of Brazil.
00:27:50.800 So, you need to search, but not so much, because they're here. 1.00
00:27:59.020 There are still, there are Warani people living their traditional lives.
00:28:09.380 And there are a lot of people that have Warani ancestors.
00:28:14.900 So we've got a lot of Warani words, and it's not very far away, it is in our everyday life.
00:28:25.900 A little, not a lot, a little, but it is there, the Warani culture.
00:28:30.900 And I traveled to the Misiones jungle, and there are Warani people living according to their traditions.
00:28:41.900 They are mistreated, sometimes killed. Their lands are robbed, are taken away from them. They're thrown out of their own lands.
00:28:57.900 okay they are
00:28:59.920 treated as
00:29:01.520 our countries 0.82
00:29:03.620 treated to their
00:29:05.360 original
00:29:05.840 people
00:29:07.400 but
00:29:09.720 there is still
00:29:11.000 a strong
00:29:12.360 culture
00:29:13.080 there are
00:29:14.640 people
00:29:15.120 who live
00:29:15.960 in this
00:29:16.840 very
00:29:17.520 in the riversides
00:29:19.940 in the shangles 0.99
00:29:20.900 they know 1.00
00:29:22.120 to live
00:29:23.520 these amphibian
00:29:24.680 lives
00:29:25.800 and they
00:29:27.280 sing beautifully
00:29:29.360 and they believe
00:29:31.080 in a god that
00:29:33.440 makes himself
00:29:35.820 at the same time
00:29:37.680 he's making the earth
00:29:39.760 and this god
00:29:41.860 creates the world
00:29:43.700 but he's not alone
00:29:45.060 in his creation
00:29:46.400 he has this hummingbird
00:29:48.800 these small birds
00:29:50.300 there is this hummingbird
00:29:54.020 that fits him in his mouth
00:29:56.380 So, this is not said in the book, but if there is a hummingbird that fits him, there's a flower.
00:30:06.400 So, for these people, in the very beginning, there was something like a human being, a god, an animal, and a vegetable.
00:30:19.380 table. So there were the three realms of life working for the creation. I find that wiser,
00:30:32.440 a lot wiser, than our creation myth, that this man alone making everything. And I think
00:30:43.780 they know better than us how the the how life is life is entangled they cut us from earth lives
00:30:57.300 of western culture cut us from nature but we are nature we are not another thing so i i feel 0.74
00:31:10.000 And I think that we're educated in Western cultures like myself and most Argentinians and most Latin Americans need to go away from that culture.
00:31:25.640 I think everybody needs to go away from that culture because that culture is killing us, is killing the complex forms of Earth life. 1.00
00:31:37.620 and
00:31:38.940 originary people or
00:31:41.500 First Nations, I don't know how to say
00:31:43.740 this in English
00:31:44.620 they know how to live
00:31:47.680 without killing
00:31:49.200 the earth
00:31:51.420 and without killing
00:31:53.540 all of us
00:31:55.240 and I think their philosophy
00:31:57.500 we need to hear, we need to
00:31:59.780 learn and we need to
00:32:01.660 repair and give back lands and everything
00:32:03.920 of course
00:32:04.700 And this is in your book, too. The book begins with Antonio is in the jungle with the Guarani people. Is this part of why you chose to have to have him in the jungle as part of your book, to have him return to the land and to change in a way?
00:32:25.160 Yes. I was thinking a lot about these cultural differences, how we became parasites and how did they not, how did they to stay alive. That is a question. It's very difficult to answer because everything and everybody was trying to kill them and to make their lives miserable.
00:32:53.380 And I wanted Antonio to be in the jungle because the jungle is the place where life, let's say it this way, it's sincere, you feel it.
00:33:04.700 There's no way you cannot feel it because this is this flower that gets that birth from another flower that gives birth to another plant.
00:33:17.000 and the animals are all in this web
00:33:21.240 and you feel this way of this thing of life being a web
00:33:26.540 and it is Guarani land
00:33:30.620 and I wanted him to get in touch with the place where he was living
00:33:38.680 he lives his whole life in America
00:33:41.540 and when you read his autobiography for instance
00:33:46.460 And he describes Lima. It's very astonishing because he only mentions that parts of Lima that were Spain, the university, the convent, the church.
00:34:04.000 Well, only, and Lima was the center of a great civilization, and still today you can see things that are not Western, that are from the Incanato.
00:34:22.800 And in those days, I guess it was a very magnificent Inca town.
00:34:31.480 this is my cat 0.99
00:34:33.380 coming in
00:34:34.620 say hi
00:34:36.340 oh
00:34:37.820 hello
00:34:39.160 Coco
00:34:40.320 oh
00:34:41.320 and
00:34:44.340 he
00:34:44.980 he never
00:34:46.000 it's
00:34:47.000 it's like
00:34:47.780 he
00:34:49.760 never
00:34:50.500 gets in
00:34:51.820 touch
00:34:52.120 with
00:34:52.880 that
00:34:53.800 that was
00:34:55.140 the land
00:34:55.880 where he was
00:34:57.280 living 0.55
00:34:57.680 they came here
00:34:59.780 destroy
00:35:00.660 everything
00:35:01.480 everything they could destroy and didn't get in touch most of them that is very astonishing how
00:35:11.160 did you how could they not get in touch and i wanted him to get in touch to make contact to be
00:35:22.520 affected by the jungle by the people by the language by the difference i wanted the difference
00:35:33.620 to make him able to become another to suffer a very very big transformation pretty much bigger
00:35:43.820 and send their transformation and everything.
00:35:47.500 It's interesting because at the beginning of Antonio's life
00:35:52.880 where he leaves the convent and becomes a man,
00:35:56.560 he spends time then spending in the forest in Spain.
00:36:01.660 So that's where his first transformation happens.
00:36:04.720 And then in your book, he has a new transformation again in nature.
00:36:09.680 Yes, in another forest.
00:36:10.920 it's very interesting
00:36:14.100 what you say
00:36:15.720 I'm glad you noticed that forests
00:36:18.440 were that kind of
00:36:20.520 life-changing places
00:36:24.500 for Antonio
00:36:25.240 I think
00:36:28.620 or I believe in
00:36:30.160 the great transformations
00:36:34.440 that being
00:36:36.400 present in a
00:36:38.660 forest can make with
00:36:40.400 anybody's life and and i'm not the only one now there are some doctors medicine people sending
00:36:49.200 their patients to have bath forests yeah we have that here too the the forest forest bathing
00:36:57.680 it's a forest bathing so that is a very very small way of being in a forest it's the way possible
00:37:09.280 for most of us nowadays if we live in a city away from forests. It's pretty much better than
00:37:17.440 nothing, of course. But feeling that you are part of this huge, gorgeous web of life,
00:37:27.000 it makes you change, yes, of course. My final question for you is,
00:37:33.260 writing this book in the 21st century
00:37:37.820 about events from the 16th or 17th century.
00:37:43.520 Do you see, what connections do you see
00:37:46.020 between Antonio's story and life today
00:37:49.520 for, in Latin America?
00:37:54.880 When I started thinking about this book,
00:37:59.380 was when Australia, and Australia's fires, big fires, horrible wildfires.
00:38:06.280 And after those fires came Amazonian fires.
00:38:12.220 It was, whoa, terrible.
00:38:15.600 And after Amazonian fires, there were very huge fires here in Argentina
00:38:23.740 in what used to be Guarani lands.
00:38:29.020 It is a very beautiful, beautiful, beautiful place.
00:38:32.860 There are a lot of rivers and tiny islands
00:38:35.420 and trees and birds.
00:38:37.720 It's a wetland, huge wetland
00:38:41.440 with a lot of biodiversity.
00:38:43.960 And they put it on fire.
00:38:48.180 And I was thinking about colonialism
00:38:53.400 Because we produce materias prima, raw things like soy, soya, like oil, like gold, the poor, poor, poor cows, meat.
00:39:10.540 and to do that they need to kill everything they need no forest no wetlands they need they need
00:39:22.400 those huge pieces of land empty so they kill everything and they kill us in the same
00:39:31.480 because to to have a lot of soya you have to use a glyphosato from buyer monsanto 1.00
00:39:39.580 and and that kills people and animals and makes poison of water and of air because they threw it 0.91
00:39:51.580 from planes and and it's the same with petroleum that with oil the same with gold the same with
00:40:01.300 A lot of things. And there is this acceleration, no? In the last 50 years, the most powerful people of the world decided that, okay, we're done. We'll kill everything, become as rich as we can, and then we go to Mars.
00:40:23.700 I don't know what they are thinking, but, well, we have this monster, Musk. 0.93
00:40:30.040 He says this clearly.
00:40:32.060 We have a lot of monsters, but this is an easy monster to speak of because everybody knows him.
00:40:37.500 Everybody knows him.
00:40:39.160 And this is some kind of colonialism.
00:40:44.200 It is making of Africa and Latin America desert lands.
00:40:50.780 and anyway you are not safe if you don't live in africa or latin america or you only will live 0.98
00:40:59.880 first but they are they are they are working against most of humanity whether you live here
00:41:08.840 or there or whatever and and this is uh this is also colonialism and you can see these wars
00:41:17.980 we are seeing now a genocide
00:41:20.580 by streaming
00:41:21.580 and
00:41:23.560 it's so
00:41:26.320 horrible
00:41:28.540 isn't it
00:41:29.440 and this has
00:41:32.560 already happened and it happens
00:41:34.140 it keeps happening
00:41:36.540 and I think
00:41:38.780 this is, these are
00:41:40.400 similarities
00:41:41.940 even
00:41:43.220 5 centuries or 6 centuries is a lot of time
00:41:46.860 but
00:41:47.200 some things
00:41:49.080 they didn't change
00:41:51.080 a lot
00:41:51.820 and I think about
00:41:54.220 the you were saying
00:41:57.180 about the Guarani people who are still
00:41:59.320 all over near where
00:42:01.140 you live and how they were there
00:42:03.240 when Antonio and
00:42:05.200 the other colonizers
00:42:07.440 arrived they're still there
00:42:09.200 and still being
00:42:11.520 threatened still
00:42:12.980 there's still forces trying
00:42:15.380 to steal their land
00:42:17.160 and to separate them from their culture. 0.98
00:42:22.400 Yes. 0.99
00:42:23.080 Yeah, it feels like things have changed,
00:42:26.840 but some things are still very much the same
00:42:30.200 as in Antonio's time.
00:42:32.620 Yes.
00:42:33.060 And, okay, we have no option
00:42:41.260 but to fight against these things that didn't change.
00:42:47.760 What are we going to do? We have to fight.
00:42:50.260 But not like Antonio.
00:42:52.560 Not like Antonio, no, no.
00:42:57.500 Antonio fought for silly reasons.
00:43:01.360 Yes.
00:43:04.080 Thank you, Gabby, so much for talking with me today about your book.
00:43:08.460 I was so happy to discover your book.
00:43:13.480 I find Antonio such an interesting, strange character from history.
00:43:19.760 And I'm happy that your book is there so more people can learn about this story.
00:43:24.300 And your book is so beautiful and so interesting.
00:43:29.420 And I was so happy to talk to you today.
00:43:31.980 okay thank you so much for talking to me and for your patience because of i i know i'm not
00:43:40.420 a great english talker but it has been great talking to you thank you so much
00:43:46.080 so again the english language version of this book is called we are green and trembling
00:43:55.460 Gabriela Capizón, Camara. If you're a Spanish reading person, you could probably get this even
00:44:03.680 more easily because it won all these Spanish awards. The title in Spanish is Las Niñas del
00:44:11.780 Naranjel. I'm going to say this in Spanish, but my accent is what it is. Las Niñas del Naranjel
00:44:18.480 from 2023. If you just look up Gabriela Capizón, Camara, you're going to find this book.
00:44:25.460 in Spanish or also in English. Again, the English language title, We Are Green and Trembling.
00:44:29.640 And if you want to hear more about Antonio de Arauzo slash Catalina de Arauzo,
00:44:36.220 I'll put a link to those episodes at the bottom of this episode. If you're listening on Spotify,
00:44:41.420 I'll just like directly connect it to those episodes. But yeah, I did three vulgar history
00:44:45.860 episodes about this person's bananas life, which again, I was just so happy to see Gabrielle has
00:44:54.400 written this book so the more people can hear about can hear about this strange story i also
00:44:59.160 wanted to mention and gabrielle mentioned this in the interview about what's happening with
00:45:03.980 climate change and with what's happening with the traditional lands of indigenous people and just
00:45:10.140 how colonization is sucking so much out for so many people i live in saskatchewan in canada which
00:45:15.700 is currently dealing with wildfires in the north the northern part of our province as well as the
00:45:21.200 neighboring province of manitoba which are areas that have a heavily a lot of the population of
00:45:27.420 those areas are indigenous people and historically have been inhabited by indigenous people and it's
00:45:33.080 a real crisis going on here so i wanted to just let you know if that is something that you're
00:45:38.840 looking for ways to support if you're listening from anywhere in the world frankly there's an
00:45:43.880 organization called world central kitchen which is an organization that like there's fully staffed
00:45:49.840 organization and they send chefs into places where crises are happening. Those chefs work
00:45:56.400 with the local community, local restaurants to provide food to people because the immediate
00:46:02.420 need of so many people when they're living through a crisis is they need to eat. They
00:46:05.520 need shelter and they need to eat. And World Central Kitchen is a fantastic charity that's
00:46:09.340 helping out. And I've talked about them on the podcast before. And it's kind of surreal to know
00:46:13.640 that they're here now, like near where I live in Canada, helping out because it's such a crisis of
00:46:19.120 what's happening with all the wildfires that are happening in Saskatchewan and also in Manitoba.
00:46:25.100 If you want to support the work of World Central Kitchen to help both what they're doing in Canada
00:46:29.640 as well as what they're doing, they're in the front lines of anywhere you hear that there's a
00:46:35.080 crisis happening. World Central Kitchen is there. They're in Gaza. They're in Ukraine. They are on
00:46:40.140 the scene helping out and you can donate to them if you go to donate.wck.org donate.wck.org
00:46:49.820 and you can donate just to them in general or specifically their climate disaster fund
00:46:55.520 earmarks funds to go towards helping people like the people who are being affected by these
00:47:00.260 wildfires in Canada right now if you're in Canada and I put this delineation up because it can be
00:47:06.940 complicated donating to a charity from a different country from where you live. World Central Kitchen
00:47:11.420 is an international charity, so you can donate to them from anywhere. If you're in Canada and you
00:47:16.560 want to donate to an organization that is specifically helping the people who are affected
00:47:21.520 by these wildfires, there's lots of organizations are. And one that I want to shout out specifically
00:47:26.960 where I live in Saskatoon is the Central Urban Métis Federation Incorporated or COMFI, C-U-M-F-I,
00:47:34.380 which is a community-based Métis-owned and operated non-profit charitable organization
00:47:39.200 and they are really that's where people here are dropping off donations for the people who
00:47:45.160 are affected by these wildfires like they're really stepping up on the situation and if you
00:47:49.560 want to donate to them I will give you that link as well you can donate to them through
00:47:54.620 canadahelps.org which is a place where you can do lots of charitable donations
00:47:59.360 to all kinds of places in Canada.
00:48:01.780 But you can get to learn more about Comfi
00:48:04.200 at cumfi.org slash donate.
00:48:07.820 That's cumfi.org slash donate
00:48:10.740 if you want to help out the people
00:48:13.960 who are affected by this disaster
00:48:16.340 that's happening in the province
00:48:17.760 and the country in which I live.
00:48:20.400 Otherwise, I'm going to be back next week.
00:48:23.640 We're doing two episodes a week for most of June
00:48:27.040 because there's going to be
00:48:27.940 the regular wednesday episode and then the pride month specials on fridays and we're going to be
00:48:33.660 talking if you can believe it even more about antonio day around so coming up next friday
00:48:38.540 before then there's going to be a regular episode of vulgar history as well so i mean like just
00:48:42.840 make sure you subscribe to vulgar history wherever you get your podcasts like subscribe like enable
00:48:47.700 the automatic downloads and when there's an episode on a wednesday or on another day it's
00:48:51.660 going to always show up for you and you're going to always see it there and otherwise until next 0.94
00:48:56.300 time i mean happy pride month and keep your pants on and your tits out vulgar history is researched 0.97
00:49:05.420 scripted and hosted by ann foster that's me editor is christina lumagi theme music is by the severin 0.98
00:49:12.280 duo transcripts of this podcast are available at vulgarhistory.com by aveline malik you can get
00:49:18.100 early ad-free episodes of vulgar history by becoming a paid member of our patreon for as
00:49:22.740 that was $1 a month at patreon.com slash ann foster writer vulgar history merchandise is
00:49:28.520 available at vulgar history.com slash store for americans and for everyone else at vulgar
00:49:33.660 history.redbubble.com follow us on social media at vulgar history pod and get in touch with me
00:49:39.640 via email at vulgar history pod at gmail.com legendary stories awe-inspiring sound and
00:49:50.160 endless adventure. Welcome to the Realms of Peril and Glory.
00:49:58.140 Explore the mechanically magical vistas of Vale,
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