00:00:00.200Hi, I'm Clare Mitchell, QC. Welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.
00:00:05.220I'm a lawyer who specialises in miscarriage of justice cases,
00:00:08.740and we're bringing you this podcast because we want to tell you0.61
00:00:11.580about the women who were accused, prosecuted, convicted,
00:00:15.800and ultimately executed as witches in Scotland.
00:00:18.780I'm Zoe Vendetotsi, and I'm a writer who's always had an interest in the witches,
00:00:23.040and I feel that this dark mark against Scotland needs a reckoning.
00:00:26.480The campaign Witches of Scotland wants three things.
00:00:29.600Firstly, a pardon for all those convicted of witchcraft.
00:00:33.240Secondly, an apology for all those who were accused as witches.
00:00:37.420And finally, a national monument in recognition of all those who were affected by this terrible miscarriage of justice.
00:00:44.420Over the forthcoming weeks, we'll be talking to a whole host of experts about the history and the modern day connections to the witches of Scotland.
00:00:53.720Hello and welcome to the Witches of Scotland podcast.
00:00:56.820We are now on episode 29 and our guest today is extremely interesting and a very impassioned
00:01:03.800speaker indeed. He is called Leo Igwe and we'll be hearing about his international focus on
00:01:10.400advocacy for those accused of witchcraft later on. This week we've been contacted by one of our
00:01:16.620listeners who's also a local artist, local to our area, called Laura Darling Brackenridge.
00:01:22.340she's been in touch to tell us that there is actually a statue of a woman in dundee because
00:01:29.440we were talking recently about the lack of statues obviously and the statue is is quite
00:01:35.100interesting because this is one of the things that we've talked about that the statue isn't
00:01:38.800of a particular individual woman it's a statue like of women to represent women that were dundee
00:01:45.180weavers was created by malcolm robertson in well it was installed in 2014 in lochie which is an
00:01:51.420area of Dundee where a lot of mill workers used to live that's where they came from so it's an
00:01:57.440interesting sculpture it's definitely worth having a look at we'll put a link to it on the website
00:02:02.160but it was something that was made to recognize the weavers the women weavers of Scotland and the
00:02:08.080statue is of a woman with a little girl standing behind her and there's it's like a sail on a ship
00:02:14.440you'll see if you have a look at it and on there is a verse from the song oh dear me by Mary Brooks
00:02:19.060bank and there's some lines from the poem toast to weaver crafts by ron hutcheson so the two
00:02:24.220figures that are on there the woman is a lady called stella carrington and then there's a
00:02:29.540little girl who was seven at the time called sophia capon and her granny was actually a weaver
00:02:34.580which is quite common my granny was also a weaver so if you're from dundee there tends to be a link
00:02:39.260to the women working in the mills so it's nice to know that there is a statue there that's for that
00:02:43.900but it is very much it's not about one particular woman it's definitely a case of a woman embodying
00:02:50.500you know like all women so you know again this goes back to what we've talked about so many
00:02:54.200times doesn't it Claire about the lack of real representation for women yeah I mean it's it's
00:02:59.320fantastic and I'm so glad that the women who worked as weavers have got that recognition
00:03:03.760I think any statues in recognition of women are good but it would be also good to have along with
00:03:10.180those statues, individual statues of women who have done something in particular, just so that
00:03:16.760young people, boys, girls, adults can look at them and see them for what they have done and what
00:03:23.840they have contributed to society. Yeah, and see themselves reflected. We've talked about that a
00:03:28.320few times, haven't we, how important that is. There's no, like, particularly talking about this
00:03:31.980area, there's no shortage of women role models, really, that can be studied in India. I remember
00:03:38.500we talked right back at the start to Sarah and Sarah said that she wondered when she started
00:03:44.040off her project about trying to name all the different places in relation to women and she
00:03:49.220wondered whether or not there would be enough women like she just didn't know if history had
00:03:54.120recorded enough and she said not only there were enough there were too many she was struggling to
00:03:58.600get all these fantastic stories of things that women had done into her book I remember she said
00:04:04.780was that her motto became leave no women behind as she was trying to get everybody0.99
00:04:08.860i love that that's brilliant but it's it's interesting because you know obviously women0.95
00:04:16.180aren't necessarily going to be war heroes that does seem to be like one of the the hottest
00:04:20.340tickets to getting a statue made of yourself so it is nice it is nice to see that women are
00:04:24.860are marked in that way in dundee because women certainly and i'm sure this is the case in most
00:04:29.480places in scotland but women were absolutely at the forefront of political involvement particularly
00:04:34.020during the suffrage point of time they were involved in the mills as many women did across
00:04:38.740britain during the second world war they stepped up and did you know quote unquote male jobs you0.97
00:04:43.380know there's there have been lots of women that have been real kind of groundbreakers0.99
00:04:46.340so i just would like to see more of that generally speaking of suffragette zoe as you know we were0.96
00:04:51.800down at the house recently looking at the what's called the witch's stone and round that was tied
00:04:58.180the ribbon in suffragette colours somebody had gone down there and tied that up there nice I'd
00:05:03.940presume that's something to do with them international women's day maybe something
00:05:07.740like that but I think we should just clarify for our international listeners of which we have
00:05:12.540quite a few what is a house what is the house Claire oh so the house is the graveyard in the
00:05:19.920centre of Dundee and I'm not quite sure is house a word for graveyard is it I don't think so
00:05:26.320actually I have no idea why it's called that I should ask my gran certainly when I was a little
00:05:31.460girl that's where my gran took me for entertainment we used to go around the house this is the same
00:05:35.620gran that was the mill worker so she used to take us around the graveyards and have a look there and
00:05:40.020it's a really I mean like we know that some of our listeners have got an interest in graveyards
00:05:44.480generally and if you do and you've not listened already go back and listen to Peter Ross's episode
00:05:49.040because his book's fantastic about graveyards and cemeteries but the house is amazing and it's
00:05:54.220really worth going and have a look around yeah the thing that we were talking about in the house was
00:05:58.800a stone which sort of comes up to i don't know just above the knee perhaps is that the height
00:06:04.860of it maybe up to i think so yeah you and i are very very tall though obviously being super models
00:06:11.300so maybe not on the average so it probably comes up to say anything we like as a podcast claire
00:06:18.160we can make any bold claims and and we'd be fine right up until the point of someone who
00:06:24.420saw us and then they'd be like hang on a minute this is a story that you've told me
00:06:29.400yeah I think probably on an average woman's height say around about five foot six I think
00:06:34.500it'd be just above the knee I would say above the knee and it was actually a stone speaking of the
00:06:39.500weavers it was actually a stone where the nine trades of Dundee met it wasn't actually a stone
00:06:45.520that was set up to remember anyone as witches
00:07:42.840since the 16th century so it fits in time-wise with the allegations of witches but also Dundee's
00:07:49.680most famous woman that was executed as a witch Griselle Jaffrey she was a local businesswoman
00:07:56.920and as I understood it she was a businesswoman in her own right like it wasn't just her husband's
00:08:02.780business that she was part of but she was a businesswoman herself and I just wonder if it
00:08:08.160comes from that time because she was a businesswoman and the stone was to do with the people
00:08:14.500where business folk met i don't know that's yeah maybe that's my made-up idea we have been talking
00:08:21.060a little bit on twitter to a local historian who is going to talk to us at a later date about that
00:08:26.560so maybe we can do some more digging around the issue of of grizel jaffrey and where these things
00:08:32.160come from yes that is really interesting i look forward to doing that with him very very soon
00:08:37.040and what else have we got Zoe this week we've also been contacted by one of our fantastic
00:08:43.220listeners who's a great supporter called Melanie Mackin who you may remember well Claire you'll
00:08:47.960remember sent us photographs before about different places that were connected to the
00:08:52.180campaign in different ways so she's been in touch this week with quite a sweet story she was saying
00:08:56.500that she hangs out with five-year-olds and does activities with them I don't know if she's a
00:09:01.000teacher or she works in an after-school club or something like that and she was saying that they
00:09:05.520were drawing witches and the kids were that had I think had brought this up themselves they're
00:09:09.920drawing them and she said out of the six kids that were there five of them said that they liked
00:09:15.840witches but one little kid was a bit scared of witches but then she changed her mind after the
00:09:20.640other kids were telling them all the marvelous things about witches apparently and then she had
00:09:25.480told them in the past I think it was at Halloween about the story about the witches being ale women
00:09:31.320alewives and about how the pointy hat was there to be seen in the in the market crowds and the
00:09:37.280idea the different things that they had associated with that job however one thing that she says that
00:09:42.300she can't dissuade them from interpreting and having in their drawings is the broomstick
00:09:46.140and when she asks you know to the kids even though she's told them this repeatedly why do
00:09:51.300witches have broomsticks they always tell her sort of a different version and she keeps reminding
00:09:55.720them it's to sweep out the barley and it's to keep the the brew houses clean and the kids just will
00:10:00.280not let go of the idea that the broomsticks are there expressly for them to be able to fly
00:10:04.760so they just they'll accept everything else about the witches but they will not give up the idea
00:10:09.480that broomsticks are for flying and I don't see why not it's you know as myths go I think that's
00:10:15.320quite a cool idea I do like the notion of that being able to fly so thanks Melanie for being in
00:10:20.520touch it's great you know it's great to know that there's people that are telling children and other
00:10:26.240people as well like about the myths and keeping on point really with the truth of the story of
00:10:31.780witches and her story is very on point because in the last few weeks there has been a few articles
00:10:37.720going around the internet about early history and women as brewers and I would really really love
00:10:45.060we should really try shout out to any early modern historian that can tell us about this
00:10:50.660it was sarah who told me about it first of all and directed me to something and maybe we can
00:10:56.440follow up a few links with her in fact um maybe that'll be someone now someone just calling us
00:11:02.160now is a brewery offering to do a witches of scotland brew oh now now we're talking oh now
00:11:09.240that's getting some thoughts going watch this space watch this space right so we've had contact
00:11:16.640then from elony so thanks for being in touch and it's always really nice to hear from people that
00:11:20.400get in touch with different you know facts or things they've come across in their own research
00:11:23.880so thanks so much for reaching out to us. And this week we have as you've said before Leo Igwe
00:11:30.060he is a humanist and he is a man who set up advocacy for alleged witches in Nigeria. He is0.74
00:11:37.840an academic who has worked throughout Africa and tries to assist people who have been alleged to
00:11:45.420committed acts of witchcraft so do you have some more info yeah what we thought we'd do this week
00:11:50.520is the bit before we have the guest on to talk we usually outline a few stories of witches just to
00:11:57.400keep coming back to this idea or accuse witches rather to keep coming back to this idea that they
00:12:02.240were just people and to just keep humanizing the names that we have and they've come up during
00:12:06.740different research so we thought what we do this week is the first person that we'd lead with
00:12:11.300is a story that's happening just now unfortunately in Liberia where there is a little girl who's been
00:12:17.740expelled from her primary school now she's six this wee girl she's called Catherine Karma and
00:12:23.640she lives just outside Monrovia which is the capital of Liberia on the 16th of March she was
00:12:29.420expelled from her school which is called Tyne Seplo Education Foundation School after being
00:12:35.560accused of having and this is a quote the power of the dark world and the ability to initiate
00:12:41.020other students. Now, what that means is initiate them into basically black magic and into witchcraft
00:12:46.540and working with the devil. So the school has chucked her out of their building. She's not0.97
00:12:51.920allowed to be there anymore. There's no proof, obviously. And there's nothing to say that
00:12:57.020Catherine performed any witchcraft activities. And I don't think that they've made much of a
00:13:02.900public statement other than that maybe they're investigating it further. It's really appalling.
00:13:07.140One of the things that Leo has has suggested that people do is to get in touch with the school and say, you know, we're watching from outside, which is quite interesting.
00:13:16.480And he talks about this in the podcast, the idea of there being kind of international pressure put on people that are carrying on with this, because it's not just a case of people being accused of being witches.
00:13:27.820And, you know, that's it. This is the case of people have been assaulted.
00:13:31.620there have been murders people are you know like this wee girl Catherine she's going to probably0.99
00:13:35.520lose her right to an education if it doesn't change which means then you know what does the
00:13:39.640future hold for this this child so Leo is a very interesting speaker on this so we thought we
00:13:45.100would just cover that and there will be links that you can have a look at if you want to get
00:13:48.480involved with campaigning about that in particular but I do think it's very much worth pointing out
00:13:53.040to people that although of course this is a historical campaign this is about the women and
00:13:59.360men of Scotland that were accused of being witches but there is a really really pressing
00:14:04.620modern day issue with this you know and this isn't some just sort of idea or thought experiment
00:14:09.760it's not just like folkloric tales these are real things that are happening now and there is
00:14:14.980something that people can do if they're appalled about what happened in Scotland in the past
00:14:18.680then this is an area in which the people can actually really get involved so I think it's
00:14:23.260important to understand the past but I think it's also important if you have got the ability to
00:14:27.920campaign about things that are happening now that you get involved with that if you can so like i
00:14:32.120say there'll be links absolutely so i mean if you were to think if you're sitting listening to this
00:14:37.180thinking god you know what i would have done if i was there how i would have tried to help those
00:14:42.280people how i would have tried to do something you can yeah because people it's happening to people
00:14:47.860now and the power of an email amnesty international showed the power of people reaching out from other
00:14:55.200countries and just saying we don't think this is right or we're watching or make sure you do the
00:15:01.520right thing here make sure that child is put back into school and given her full education can have
00:15:08.140a positive effect so um we have we're both supporters of Leo's cause and he's on Facebook
00:15:15.100as you can come to see if you look him up on Facebook or if you google him he has been
00:15:20.500had documentaries on the BBC, has had documentaries on HBO. They've made clear that the work he has
00:15:26.500done at personal cost to him, he has been assaulted, he has been threatened, his family
00:15:32.180have become involved in the Stramash as well when they were in his company. So the work that he does
00:15:37.900is so admirable and against difficulties and against personal hardship, he gets up every day
00:15:44.160and tries to fight for people who are being accused of things that they haven't done.
00:16:10.520and also the campaign which you've launched
00:16:14.280in respect of the next 10 years in Nigeria?
00:16:17.580Well, thank you so much, Claire, for this opportunity to interact with you all and to tell you about this very important campaign.
00:16:29.360And I want to let you know that it is not too often that I get an opportunity to explain what I am doing.
00:16:37.020That is the main focus is actually Africa, African countries and the rural communities.
00:16:42.300So I'm so delighted to have this opportunity to share my experiences with you.
00:16:49.280Well, I was born in a rural community in southeastern Nigeria.
00:16:55.620And growing up, I grew up in the midst where people practice Christianity and some traditional beliefs.
00:17:03.740So there were all these superstitions, fears of witchcraft, fears of people turning into birds in the night or turning into insects and attacking people, poisoning their food, causing ailments and death.
00:17:18.780Now, as a child, of course, you are meant to believe what your parents tell you or what you are told by the elders and the communities.
00:18:19.120And I had this suspicion that there must be something missing in the belief.
00:18:24.440Now, as I was growing up, I was sent to the seminary, to the Catholic seminary, to be trained as a priest.
00:18:32.060And of course, when I got there, they also started telling me about another set of beliefs,
00:18:37.140about Jesus Christ, about how Jesus Christ was everywhere and was capable of also saving people,
00:18:44.440how the devil, the demons, we are all everywhere, also trying to tempt people, kill people, harm people, cause ailments.
00:18:51.420so my confusion wasn't you know so as I was growing up and my suspicion was that either
00:19:00.220all these were just different narratives of falsehood or there must be something wrong
00:19:06.340somewhere so as I continued the seminary training at a stage I started studying philosophy
00:19:11.800which also helped me to read about not only about the local situation but about the international
00:19:18.800situation, the witch hunt in Europe, and I was like, oh, even there was something like this that
00:19:25.280happened, you know, outside my continent, and also outside, and within the continent of the people
00:19:32.540that we are told, oh, everything is perfect in their place, you know, because Jesus came from
00:19:39.040their place, Virgin Mary looked like them, and it was all good, so there was also this idea that,
00:19:45.620you know, this kind of dissonance I was having with me as to, okay, but why is it that they also
00:19:51.860have their own experience of witch hunt? And why do you also have, they have it as a historical
00:19:57.560incident, something that has happened in the past? Why did it end? And why has this continued in my
00:20:03.860own part of the world? So in the course of my studies, I continued to ask all these questions.
00:20:10.780And somewhere in the course of the training, I left the training to be a priest in 1994.
00:20:19.200Then in 1996, I started the humanist movement.
00:20:24.360And what I made as a main campaign of the humanist movement was a campaign against witch persecution and witchcraft accusation.
00:20:33.120Then what we also know locally as ritual killing.
00:20:36.360Sometimes people believe that human body parts, they could use that to make money and do some incantations and they get rich and all that.
00:20:44.100So I made these the main pillars of my campaign.
00:20:47.340And I use that as a platform to voice out my doubts and to look into this phenomenon, this practice, this harmful practice, and begin to actively engage it.
00:21:00.020Now, the more I engaged it, I found out that, number one, there was, you know, there was no case, you know, in terms of what they said, the accused people did, or those who are being killed.
00:21:12.280So, you know, I got shocked at the level of atrocity, cruelty, made it up to people who are suspected, suspected of being witches.
00:21:23.540And I felt that, you know, there's a need for a very robust campaign.
00:21:29.640It's not just enough to condemn it and say, oh, witchcraft is superstition, you go and sleep.
00:25:55.140So he was like opposed to my opposition of the letter or the protest letter I posted on the media and all that.
00:26:04.320And look, it was the only letter, the only press release that was critical of what the students were doing.
00:26:11.900Every other thing published in the media was either in support or was like something watered down and said, oh, please, let's leave this for the sake of peace.
00:26:20.140Okay. So at that point in 2019, I told myself, I said, Leo, I grew up, you grew up in this
00:26:27.400environment. I understand it. So nobody can come here and tell me, oh, Leo, you don't know what
00:26:32.400you're talking about. I'm sorry. It is the person that doesn't know. If you know what you're talking
00:26:36.840about and you have an idea of how this could be addressed, please go about it the way you
00:26:41.920understand. If people support you, fine. If they don't support you, at least you will get rest
00:26:46.880assured that you have done what you think you're supposed to do. Instead of doing something to
00:26:50.620satisfy somebody, you know, either somewhere in Europe, only
00:26:54.400right inside you, you know that really you are doing the greatest service
00:26:58.580to the country. So that was why I now came out and said, look, there's
00:27:02.680no need hiding either as a human rights organization, as a
00:27:06.540humanist, as a whatever, women rights. No. It is1.00
00:29:03.660So now, my division there is to have it the other way around.
00:29:08.000If there is anything like that, people could easily send out information, either through text messages, alert the authorities, so that such a thing could be prevented.
00:29:19.160Not something you watch and capture on cell phone and post on social media as if it's something to celebrate.
00:29:27.200So that was why I said we have to outline, come out with this 10 year of activism whereby we try to get all advocates in different countries to be active, to be on the lookout for any suspicious move or in terms of trying to accuse or kill any alleged witch, alert the whole world so that we could put pressure on the authorities and make sure that something like that does not happen.
00:29:55.620So this is exactly how and what informed our decade of activism against witch persecution in Africa, which we launched, that was in January last year.
00:30:05.500So you have 10 years of activism against witchcraft, 2020 to 2030.
00:30:11.700You want to build a community of people that will let you know when these allegations are happening so that things can be done about them.
00:30:20.060And you'll also raise activism by engaging with people in the community and explaining to them why this is wrong.
00:30:28.820Now, unfortunately, we know and we've done a lot of background reading about what has happened and the horrific things that have occurred in your country.
00:30:39.540Can you tell us about, as a generality, are these more allegations that affect women and children, or is it across the board, or are there particular elder members of the community? Who do these allegations affect?
00:30:57.920Allegations of witchcraft target all members of the community.
00:33:53.720So they are also weaker, culturally speaking.
00:33:57.620And these are often children that are easily accused
00:34:01.140or easily the label is placed on them.
00:34:04.460So while the accusation target witchcraft suspicion,
00:34:09.000people target all members of the population,
00:34:12.100It is easier, in court, to force a level, to place a level on women and disabled people, children from STEM children or households, because these are those in weaker social cultural positions.
00:34:27.260and we know and we'll share in our social media links to your facebook site but very recently we
00:34:35.400saw online just this morning in fact that there was a case of a young girl who was accused of
00:34:42.580witchcraft and you were trying to become involved in that can you tell us a wee bit about that
00:34:48.060yeah it is it was just by 11 30 p.m yesterday so somebody sent me a link to the case of a girl
00:34:57.720katherine karma in liberia so katherine karma is a six-year-old girl attending a school
00:35:03.720kindergarten school and is um is alleged that there were suspicion amongst the pupils or the
00:35:12.560student that she had supernatural powers. And the case got to the authorities, and the authorities
00:35:20.420expelled the girl from the school. So they informed me yesterday, and this morning, very early in the
00:35:27.660morning, I started making phone calls to get in touch, possibly with the family, with the journalists,
00:35:32.860or with the school. So I issued a statement and a letter which I sent to the school,
00:35:37.980and I spoke with the head of the school
00:35:40.380and who told me that the case of Catherine
00:36:32.660So what we are trying to do is that immediately we get notified of these cases.
00:36:37.900We try as much as possible to put it out in the media, pressure them, and send a message that those who persecute alleged witches will be held accountable.
00:36:47.600And there are some people who are watching.
00:36:49.740And by so doing, we try to dissuade people from engaging in it.
00:36:54.760And also, we also try to make them understand that if they need help, they should also contact us.
00:37:54.680that schools actually are places disappeared
00:37:57.940should be dispelled and those who entertain such fears should be educated and enlightened not
00:38:04.660those fears should be used to victimize students who came to school to learn i mean this is something
00:38:11.200i don't get it at all so this is the message we are trying to send and we hope that something
00:38:16.220positive will come out of catherine's case in a case like this that's happened with little girl
00:38:21.900Catherine is it that it's other children that make accusations so like maybe a child might fall
00:38:28.700out with her friends and then and then you know then a rumor starts and that's how it grows
00:38:33.500now it is much more deeper than that okay now there are narratives parents plant in the minds
00:38:41.460of their children don't call it biscuits or chocolate or how do you call it cookies from
00:38:47.580other pupils. They might initiate you. These children might belong to some occult groups.
00:38:54.480So if you collect some of these things from them, they might initiate you. So parents, you know,
00:39:00.620put these narratives into their children and they come to school with it. Now, if they notice
00:39:06.480anything strange, either in the behavior of a particular pupil, they easily invoke this narrative.
00:39:13.360And because this is something common amongst parents as a way to protect their children, now school authorities easily buy into it. That's exactly why they couldn't contend this. Why they allowed themselves to become an embarrassment to the world is that the adults in the school, they know about these narratives.
00:40:04.340the kind of orientation they receive from their families, and they come to school with it. And
00:40:08.540again, this is a faith-based school. Sometimes they invite pastors to come and preach and talk
00:40:14.620to them. And they warn them sometimes against maybe being initiated and tell them about some
00:40:21.200of these narratives, which when there is kind of suspicion, everybody melts away, like in this
00:40:27.580case. The school authorities could not do anything. They couldn't protect Catherine. They
00:40:31.920couldn't shield Catherine from being victimized and stigmatized so this is how sometimes you know
00:40:37.900we have incidents like this and if you didn't get involved if there if there wasn't somebody like
00:40:44.020you then standing up for Catherine what would have happened to Catherine that would be the end of
00:40:49.840high education and I want to tell you it is not the first time when I was doing my field work in
00:40:55.580the north of Ghana. That was in 2013 and 2014. A young girl was also expelled from a school
00:41:05.060in the north of Ghana. What happened? They said that the school captain, the student captain,
00:41:12.660kind of told her to kneel down and left her there for a very long time. So she got very angry
00:41:19.280and kind of said something like something threatening to the student and said, look,
00:41:24.380You will not use your eye to see and take the exam, to see the exam and take the exam at the end of your school year.
00:41:32.620Now, according to her, she just said it out of anger because the school captain was like punished her for a very long time for just doing nothing, not doing something little or nothing.
00:41:44.980As they were approaching the exam period, the school captain took ill and had some problem that made it difficult for him to see.
00:41:56.140And he now recalled that there was a girl he punished some time ago who made this kind of threat that he could be ill, you know, towards the end of the school year.
00:42:36.920I eventually went and I found out that the guy had a problem, I think, with the kidney or something and was really needed some serious medical attention, which the family could not afford.
00:42:48.600And eventually he went to hospital. He couldn't make it. The student captain died.
00:42:55.920So this lady now was expelled from the school and I went to see the parents.
00:43:02.360The parents told me there was no way she could continue because of what happened,
00:43:06.240that she had to stay at home, engage in farming, and marry.
00:43:10.760And this is somebody in secondary school.
00:43:13.580So I tried, I made efforts to get some family relatives to help her at least complete secondary school.
00:43:20.600They told me that I should know what happened, that the story of what they said she did,
00:43:24.760they won't be able to bring her into their homes without fear.
00:43:29.800that, you know, because of what they said, she did.
00:44:50.840And one thing that Leo and I talked just before we came on recording about this is the importance of campaigns highlighting the fact that these things are still happening in the world.
00:45:06.580And it's not a historical issue that people are being accused and persecuted of witchcraft, but all too much the horror is that it's absolutely real and it's live and you, Leo, are spending every day.
00:45:20.840fighting against people alleging witchcraft against other people and also trying to protect their lives because people are losing their lives as a result of this allegation.
00:45:30.060Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. People are losing their lives in huge numbers.
00:45:37.780Let me tell you why I said that, because sometimes people will tell you, do you have the statistics?
00:45:42.680Now, allegations of witchcraft happen between people in stronger cultural political position against those who are weaker.
00:45:50.400So when they commit atrocities, they suppress the statistics.
00:45:54.260So it is difficult for us to get very realistic statistics as to who are those being victimized.
00:46:00.320Like I said, in the case of Catherine, if a journalist did not put this out in the media, we may not have known.
00:46:06.900And like I told you, in the case of this girl whose own education was terminated in the north of Ghana,
00:46:11.400it was because of my fieldwork, I got to know.
00:46:14.440Otherwise, that would have been the end.
00:47:36.220So there is actually a legal proceeding that's happening here. It's not a case of somebody is accusing somebody and then it's done sort of unofficially. This is an official thing with a judge and the legal system.
00:47:48.520Yes, in Malawi. In Malawi, Malawi had that. They had this and they convicted so many people. Now, the judges will say, based on the confession of the children and also security, that if they allow these elderly women to go back to their communities, that they will be killed by the accusers.
00:49:38.740Yes, we can continue with this. And do you know what? Yeah, it is actually explained. Oh, it's Africa. It's happening in Africa. And that is why I am so enthused. I'm so excited by the campaign, you know, to have what happened in Scotland.
00:49:55.940You know, have authorities apologize, come out with a moment and, you know, take action that really sends the message that these people were unjustly treated, unjustly accused and unjustly convicted.
00:50:11.200So that statement of injustice, that statement alone is helpful in helping us draw the attention to the contemporary perpetration of injustices against women in northern Ghana, who are languishing in makeshift camps, they call it witch camps, against women in Central African Republic, who are voluntarily taking themselves to prison, because that is the only place they could be safe.
00:50:37.600and against children in so many places
00:51:07.100in any way to improve the situation for you to help people so we are absolutely delighted that
00:51:15.000we can that if we get an apology or if we get a pardon you can rely on that in order to assist you
00:51:23.820to help try to show what a terrible miscarriage of justice is being is happening right at the
00:51:29.920moment in the countries that you are working with is there anything that our listeners can do
00:51:34.920I mean, is there anything that we can do here to spread the word with our listeners and other people that are involved in this area?
00:51:42.420Yeah. You see, what I always tell, what our listeners could do is, today, the world is more interconnected than it used to be.
00:51:53.540And we can use this to further the course of justice.
00:51:57.100Yes. And I want to say this, it is because of that interconnectedness, I get to know about what is going on, this campaign going on in Scotland. Okay. And I said that, yes, at our own campaign, at Advocacy for Alleged Witches, you know, we stand in solidarity with, you know, the Scottish campaigners, all that is being done to make sure that this issue is given, put at its proper place in history.
00:52:26.120So what our listeners could do is to use the same channel to draw the attention of the injustices going on. Yes, because we cannot say we have taken care of the injustice in one part of the world while we close our eyes to the same kind of injustices going on in other parts of the world.
00:52:46.180No, I don't think it speaks well of us.
00:53:14.440People localize it. They think that it is not a global issue. No, we should not localize the injustices against witches in Africa. We should globalize it. We should use all the necessary machinery in our power, all the platforms we use to highlight them with the same urgency that it deserves.
00:53:34.360and send that message that whether 300 years ago